Private Pilot Glider with SEL addon rating.. questions about TMP

[FastAttack]

Here is an interesting question

I am a Glider pilot and did my transition to single engine land this year.

Now i know that my PIC time in gliders + power counts toward my TMP and MP achievements.

but now the cross country comes into question.

I fly gliders and do  x-country flights with them, the definition for a glider cross country is a tad bit different from power aircraft as you are not required to land at a different airport. usually an out and return of 20 nautical miles is considered a cross country ( I gotta re-check the SSA and Practical Standards Glider)

Most of my flights are around 150 to 400KM ( aprox 95 to 250 miles) in distance. I have one flight that i went from Orlando to the Georgia/Florida border and back.

Question being that the requirement for TMP is 50 hours X-country. Would my glider cross country count towards the 50 hours required for TMP?

If they don't i will spending time building hours , as  i only have 25 hours in power. That would sure hamper my training.

Unrelated question to the above.. more about a form 5 glider checkride.

For those in Florida Wing or other wings  How hard is it to get a form 5 checkride in a glider if the glider is not located within your group.

I guess glider pilots are rare within Florida and CAP all together. Especially with the requirements for tow pilots to tow CAP gliders.


Thanks ,

Enrique

[SJFedor]

Well let's see....

CAPR 60-3 is going to govern your qualification as a TMP and MP. So, reading that...

2) Current and qualified CAP pilot in accordance with CAPR 60-1, with at least 100 hours pilot in command time
including at least 50 hours of cross-country flying.

Are you a current and qualified CAP pilot IAW 60-1?
Do you have 100 hours pilot in command time?
Does that include at least 50 hours of XC time?

If all three are yes, then you're good to go. I dug through 60-1 as well and can't find any language requiring it to all be powered XC time.

It's a good question for NHQ/DOV.

[CadetProgramGuy]

Well let's see....

CAPR 60-3 is going to govern your qualification as a TMP and MP. So, reading that...

2) Current and qualified CAP pilot in accordance with CAPR 60-1, with at least 100 hours pilot in command time
including at least 50 hours of cross-country flying.

Are you a current and qualified CAP pilot IAW 60-1?
Do you have 100 hours pilot in command time?
Does that include at least 50 hours of XC time?

If all three are yes, then you're good to go. I dug through 60-1 as well and can't find any language requiring it to all be powered XC time.

It's a good question for NHQ/DOV.

Fully Agree.  As a DOS I would validate your rating based on the reading of the regs.  I didn't see anything telling me that glider x-c is different than powered x-c.

[SJFedor]

Just as an aside, since it's 4am and I don't know where my FAR/AIM ran away to, what do the FARs say as far as the difference between logging XC time with different category and/or class?

[RiverAux]

Assuming the above is correct and CAP regulations allow it, is it actually wise to allow glider time to count towards the time needed for various CAP qualifications for powered planes?  Quite frankly, I don't think I would want to get in a 182 with a mission pilot that only has 25 hours of powered PIC time. 

[Trung Si Ma]

River,

That's without his powered CAPF5 or the training that he is going to go through to get it.  By the time he gets cut loose as a TMP, he'll probably be at 30-35 hours of powered PIC time.  By the time he gets to be an MP, he'll have lots more time in powered A/C.

Why, he might even have 40 hours by then. 

[RiverAux]

Less you think I'm urging discrimination against glider pilots, I also feel the same about folks whose time primarily came from jets (whether military or civilian). 

[FastAttack]

Assuming the above is correct and CAP regulations allow it, is it actually wise to allow glider time to count towards the time needed for various CAP qualifications for powered planes?  Quite frankly, I don't think I would want to get in a 182 with a mission pilot that only has 25 hours of powered PIC time.

Funny thing is what you said above is the most common controversy between glider pilots transition to power and straight motor heads. 
I still fly as you do except one thing , I don't worry about engine management. I deal with energy management instead.
I fly the wing, you guys fly the motor. Its simple as that.. and I know the comment i just said will spark a huge discussion and i really don't want to get into it.

The point is i would not do something that are not within the scope of my abilities. And yes eventually i want to be a mission pilot. But remember the wonderful program CAP bestowed on us.. We have to get a checkride to show our skills and abilities , if we don't pass it then we can't do it.

Plus I don't think I would ever jeopardize my life or others if I knew I wasn't ready.


Anyhow..
SSA says that any flight beyond 25 nm is considered a cross country..

i guess i will have to inquiry national about my 50 hours cross country as its the only thing missing before i can get approved.

[FastAttack]

Just as an aside, since it's 4am and I don't know where my FAR/AIM ran away to, what do the FARs say as far as the difference between logging XC time with different category and/or class?

from what i read , its considered time towards any XC time..
including instruments/ Commercial / ATP
When it says in a "Powered Fixed Wing Aircraft" then it means something with an engine(s)..

I came across this when i did my rating in SEL ..

[FastAttack]

Well let's see....

CAPR 60-3 is going to govern your qualification as a TMP and MP. So, reading that...

2) Current and qualified CAP pilot in accordance with CAPR 60-1, with at least 100 hours pilot in command time
including at least 50 hours of cross-country flying.

Are you a current and qualified CAP pilot IAW 60-1?
Do you have 100 hours pilot in command time?
Does that include at least 50 hours of XC time?

If all three are yes, then you're good to go. I dug through 60-1 as well and can't find any language requiring it to all be powered XC time.

It's a good question for NHQ/DOV.

Yes
Yes
ANd thats the questionable part.
I have 65+ cross country time in gliders and 25 hours cross country in powered.

[FastAttack]

River,

That's without his powered CAPF5 or the training that he is going to go through to get it.  By the time he gets cut loose as a TMP, he'll probably be at 30-35 hours of powered PIC time.  By the time he gets to be an MP, he'll have lots more time in powered A/C.

Why, he might even have 40 hours by then. 

to rectify i have 25 hours x-country time in power..

i have 50+ hours in power pic

I haven't really checked my log book.. as all i do is take friends up for weekend stays at the keys.

[SJFedor]

Assuming the above is correct and CAP regulations allow it, is it actually wise to allow glider time to count towards the time needed for various CAP qualifications for powered planes?  Quite frankly, I don't think I would want to get in a 182 with a mission pilot that only has 25 hours of powered PIC time.

Actually, I think that WOULD be the guy you'd want to be your pilot. He's already a master of flying without an engine, so imagine how good he'll be with one!

[RiverAux]

Glider pilots are definetely a master of flying a plane specially designed to be flown without power and I have all sorts of respect for the skill it takes to do that.  However, I'm pretty sure that Cessna wants 172s and 182s to be flown with the engine on.

Yes, I know that a glider pilot would have to pass a form 5 and go through the whole process and I would expect them to be basically safe in the airplane.  However, there is something to be said for having time in the seat in the airplane that you're flying.  If that wasn't critical, why do we require mission pilots to have 200 hours instead of allowing anyone with a PPL to do it?

[FastAttack]

Glider pilots are definetely a master of flying a plane specially designed to be flown without power and I have all sorts of respect for the skill it takes to do that.  However, I'm pretty sure that Cessna wants 172s and 182s to be flown with the engine on.

Yes, I know that a glider pilot would have to pass a form 5 and go through the whole process and I would expect them to be basically safe in the airplane.  However, there is something to be said for having time in the seat in the airplane that you're flying.  If that wasn't critical, why do we require mission pilots to have 200 hours instead of allowing anyone with a PPL to do it?

here i'll bite.. because we want airmanship skills behind those hours... we want the pilots with experience with different situations with weather and operational duties including task saturation. In other words experience of flying in the air.

Also your comment about the motor... Guess what I've taken a 172 with an instructor. Cut the power to idle and climbed and sustained its altitude while moving 20nm in a cloud street without dropping altitude. ( at 3000 feet)  To me a C-172 is a clunky glider with a poor glide ratio, but hey it still glides .

Also i can manage the motor as good as anyone else, the motor to me is an added tool for my airmanship skills. But guess what I fly the wing first then worry about the motor. I do energy management and the engine to me is my "iron thermal".

[airdale]

Interesting discussion.  I am Commercial/Instrument rated, Form 5 in the 172s and the 182s and have about 80 glider flights in my logbook.  Maybe this summer I'll get serious about taking the commercial glider ride.  IMHO:

Gliders are great to teach flying.  I tell every aspiring pilot that I meet that he/she should try to get some glider hours at the beginning.  I wish I had started that way.

Power planes have many more distractions and things happen faster.

100 hours time in type is generally considered to be the end of the major learning period.  Note that "type" is "172," "round dial 182," "glass 182."  Probably there are enough differences between gliders that several types are applicable there as well.

So ... I'd ride with emertins on the same terms I'll ride with anyone I don't know well.  In the front seat.  But I do agree both that the glider experience is an asset and that his overall experience is not enough to make him a "finished" pilot in any type.

[flynd94]

I started out in gliders when I was a teenager.  You truly learn how to fly a plane.  Made me a better pilot (piston, jet).

[FastAttack]

Interesting discussion.  I am Commercial/Instrument rated, Form 5 in the 172s and the 182s and have about 80 glider flights in my logbook.  Maybe this summer I'll get serious about taking the commercial glider ride.  IMHO:

Gliders are great to teach flying.  I tell every aspiring pilot that I meet that he/she should try to get some glider hours at the beginning.  I wish I had started that way.

Power planes have many more distractions and things happen faster.

100 hours time in type is generally considered to be the end of the major learning period.  Note that "type" is "172," "round dial 182," "glass 182."  Probably there are enough differences between gliders that several types are applicable there as well.

So ... I'd ride with emertins on the same terms I'll ride with anyone I don't know well.  In the front seat.  But I do agree both that the glider experience is an asset and that his overall experience is not enough to make him a "finished" pilot in any type.

Well like aircraft you have different "models" of gliders with different instrumentation.
Believe it or not there are gliders with full glass cockpits. I fly a combination of both "steam gauges" and gps flight computers with moving map.

Performance factors also occur in gliders..
Some gliders you bring them in at 70-80 knots and dropping 1 or 2 degrees on the nose can put you easily at over 100 knots without you knowing it.. so the aspect of things happening quicker can also occur on gliders.

I am most likely being biased here but I think you have a higher task saturation on a glider than you do in a power plane especially under cross country conditions

Back to the original topic
Anyhow i am becoming a TMP as I want to build more time with CAP aircraft.. I don't think i will become a mission pilot anytime soon, even though i have the hours to become one. Plus i am doing my IFR requirements as we speak. Even though I will never fly in IFR conditions.. its a good tool to have under your belt , plus your airmanship skills improve far greater as you have to be very precise to get your IFR.

Anyhow as far as national goes.. no one has a slight clue about it.. i stumped them on this one.

[Check Pilot/Tow Pilot]

Hey Emertins,

Nice to have another Soaring pilot in CAP.  I spent 20 years gliding in Canada with the Air Cadets, and six years in the Sierra Nevada's doing up to 700 KM x-cntry flights, wave flights to 34,000, and thermals to 17,999 in my ASW-17.  It was an awesome experience.

As a CAP newbie, I was able to add some soaring expertise to the last motor-glider search and help zero-in on potential search locations.  Not that a certain IC valued that experience, but that's another story

FYI, I am also doing my IFR rating (had one in Canada but they take it away if you don't keep it current).   

Enjoy CAP!

[FastAttack]

Hey Emertins,

Nice to have another Soaring pilot in CAP.  I spent 20 years gliding in Canada with the Air Cadets, and six years in the Sierra Nevada's doing up to 700 KM x-cntry flights, wave flights to 34,000, and thermals to 17,999 in my ASW-17.  It was an awesome experience.

As a CAP newbie, I was able to add some soaring expertise to the last motor-glider search and help zero-in on potential search locations.  Not that a certain IC valued that experience, but that's another story

FYI, I am also doing my IFR rating (had one in Canada but they take it away if you don't keep it current).   

Enjoy CAP!

yeah its to bad there are not that many soaring pilots in CAP...
especially "Soaring" pilots are a rare breed of glider pilots , not that many glider pilots cut the umbilical cord that attaches them to the airport

anyhow national is stumped.. either way i think i will reach the 50 x-country hours in no time.. i fly pretty much every other weekend to different locations in Florida.. i should accumulate it pretty quick..

[Check Pilot/Tow Pilot]

Have you done your Form 5 yet?