Killed in the line of duty - CAP Memorial

[PlaneFlyr]

We're trying to identify names of people killed in the line of duty with CAP.  These will be added to the CAP Memorial when it goes on display after the NHQ building is renovated.

There were very good records kept of the WWII members killed.  But after that, people's names may have been mentioned in one of several public sources (CAP News or several periodicals that CAP used as a mouthpiece over the years), but I have yet to see an official listing.

If anyone has names/info/details of death for deceased members, please PM me with the details.  Also, any documentation that can be provided will be greatly beneficial in making sure deserving members are recognized.

Now to open up the debate a little:
What do you think should be the criteria for being memorialized?  Obvious memorialization example would be flying an AFAM and crashing.  Probably okay if flying corporate mission, or driving vehicle during mission.  Obvious exclusion example might be an out of shape senior having heart attack sitting at a desk during squadron meeting.  Gray areas: off duty member performing heroic rescue and dies... but awarded posthumous SMV/BMV?  How about if they don't earn posthumous SMV/BMV, therefore no CAP affiliation with the death (probably would have to exclude them).  Other scenarios?  Does just being at a meeting count? 

We want to make sure those who die in the line of duty are recognized.  But there's insufficient room to put every member that ever dies regardless of cause/location/duty status.  Plus we don't want the more honorable deaths watered down by too many of the "Bob was a great guy, died at home off CAP time, but we want to honor him anyway" situations.  Overall, I'd rather error on the side of honoring someone, but we need to keep it reasonable.

I expect there to be a lot of controversy on what does/doesn't warrant this recognition.  So let's hear it.

[jimmydeanno]

Todd,

I found a bunch of routine historical documents a few months ago in my squadron's storage area.  In them was correspondence from 1944 regarding a cadet who was shot by a senior member while "on duty" at the Portsmouth, NH Airport.

Here is the text from those documents:

CIVIL AIR PATROL
An Auxiliary of the Army Air Forces


7 May 1944

Subject: Fatal Shooting

To: Lt. Col John F. Brown
      N.H. Wing Headquarters
      Concord, N.H.

1. On 7 May 1944 shortly after noon, Corp. Richard Towle CAP serial No. 1-1-929 attached to the Portsmouth Squadron, accidentally shot Leslie E. O'Brien CAPC., at the Portsmouth Municipal Airport.

2. Pvt. Adrien Frenette, CAPC had just relieved Corp. Towle at Squadron Headquarters and together with CAPC. O'Brien were standing by to receive telephone messages and to serve any incoming flying personnel.

3. The weapon involved - a 45 cal. colt automatic was hanging on a hook in a holster in the Officers day room with nothing in the barrel and the clip only partially inserted - left there for any of the night guards in case of emergency.
Orders had been given that no one was to touch the gun without authority.  Corp. Towle removed gun from holster and in working action accidently discharged it.  The bullet struck Cadet O'Brien in the stomach.

4. Cadet O'Brien was rushed to the hospital in a Police ambulance, given plasma and adrenalin but died shortly after arrival.

5. Portsmouth authorities - Police and County Solictor [sic] made an ivestigation and determined the shooting to be purely accidental, Corp. Towle was immediately released after the finding.


1st Lt. John E. Palmer, CAP
Commanding Portsmouth Squadron

Distribution
1cc Lt. Col Brown
1cc File

Portsmouth Squadron
Portsmouth, N.H.


10 May 1944


Subject: Service Record

To:         Lt. Thomas Cleworth
              Chaplain, U.S.A.
              Camp Langdon, N.H.

1. Cadet Leslie O'Brien enlisted on Jamuary[sic] 26, 1944 and completed his basic training March 29, 1944.  He was a member of the Rifle Team and qualified as an expert rifleman.  He was, at the present time preparing himself to be a pilot, by studying navigation and radio communications.

2. While in the Civil Air Patrol, Cadet O'Brien's service was honorable and faithful.

3. Resolved: that in the death of Cadet O'Brien the Civil Air patrol has lost a loyal and trustworthy member.


Lt. John E. Palmer, CAP
Commanding, Portsmouth Squadron

CIVIL AIR PATROL
An Auxiliary of the Army Air Forces
Portsmouth Squadron
Portsmouth, N. H.


7 May 1944

Subject:  Fatal Shooting.

To        :  Lt. Col. Earle L. Johnson
               National Commander
               National Headquarters
               New York, N.Y.

            1. On 7 May 1944, shortly after noon, Richard Towle of Wyman Ave, Kittery, Maine., accidently shot and killed Leslie E. O'Brien of Kittery Point Maine., at the Portsmouth Municipal Airport.

            2. O'Brien and Towle at the time, were in charge of the C.A.P. Headquarters, standing by for telephone messages and ready to serve any incoming flying personnel.

            3. The weapon is left at the post for any individual doing night duty.  Orders have been given that no person should take gun without authority.

            4. Towle was checking gun to see that no ammuniition was in the chamber.  The gun accidentally went off - hitting O'Brien in abdomen.

            5. O'Brien was rushed to the hospital given plasma and adrenalin but died shortly after arrival.

            6. Local authorities have investigated and determined the shooting as purely accidental.

            7. Towle was taken in custody by local authorities and was released shortly after investigation.


1st Lt. John E. Palmer, CAP
Commanding Portsmouth Squadron

I have the original documents.

[CAPPAO]

Read about two MDWG members here: http://mdcap.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=article.display&articleID=76

[Ned]

Why wouldn't we list every member who died while performing CAP duties?

Sure, the "heart attack" senior isn't as dramatic as the loss of an air crew, but the net result is the same. 

I think any debate about which deaths are more "worthy" of inclusion will inevitably get very, very ugly.

Not to mention divisive and embarassing to the relatives and CAP.

Do we really want to nit pick about such things?  Do we honestly want to debate if a given death is a result of negligence and therefore less worthy?

Each member who dies on CAP duty has literally given everything they have to give and died while (in the greater scope of things) trying to help others, even if they slipped on the soap in the shower at encampment.

Let's honor all our members who have given their all, and not engage in classic CT-style debates over the details of every single death in a vain attempt to select only the most "worthy" of inclusion.

That would be undignified and unseemly.

[swamprat86]

I agree, if they are on our time they should be recognized.  Maybe just a list of names on a wall or plaque without the story.  That could just be for the committee to show that it happened on CAP time in uniform.

[tarheel gumby]

I am curious about the legal and op sec issues that may be connected with a memorial, As I mentioned in an earlier thread I was working on a project to memorialize NCWG members that have died in the line of duty, I have run in to a lot of resistance to the idea (at the Wing level). So for now I have placed the project on hold until I hear from wing legal.

[jimmydeanno]

^Curious about what you're thinking in terms of violating OPSEC by putting someones name on a wall...

[tarheel gumby]

^Curious about what you're thinking in terms of violating OPSEC by putting someones name on a wall...

I received a very negative reaction from Wing HQ when I approached them for informantion. and the person that I spoke with had a very supprised reaction to the idea that I had the WW II casualty list. I was basically told that I couldn't do that because it would violate somebody's privacy.

[jimmydeanno]

To that argument we should probably take down the Vietnam Memorial Wall...

I don't understand people sometimes...(not you tarheel)

[swamprat86]

Unless the mission that they died on is still classified, wouldn't this be under public record?

[jimmydeanno]

Unless the mission that they died on is still classified...

Are we in the same organization?

[tarheel gumby]

I thought so but I am still waiting for an awsner from Wing Legal to see just what is and isn't kosher

[tarheel gumby]

To that argument we should probably take down the Vietnam Memorial Wall...

I don't understand people sometimes...(not you tarheel)

I am in agreement with you on that one, everybody at the squadron level, including my CO liked the idea.

[swamprat86]

I was being a little sarcastic, but some CD missions may fall under that category.

[tarheel gumby]

I was being a little sarcastic, but some CD missions may fall under that category.

Unfortunately there those out there that just object to anything. When I made my information request I specificly asked to exclude any restricted information.

[alamrcn]

Why wouldn't we list every member who died while performing CAP duties? Sure, the "heart attack" senior isn't as dramatic as the loss of an air crew, but the net result is the same. I think any debate about which deaths are more "worthy" of inclusion will inevitably get very, very ugly.

I think you skimmed over the "at home" part. There is no debate about worthiness, it's a matter of were they "clocked in" on a CAP duty. That's pretty clear. Every name would get the same amount of flourish on the memorial I'd imagine.

The means of death need not be noted on the memorial, only on the memorial's application to varify they were indeed performing a service to CAP at the time of death. Unforunately, a 60-year member who dies at home of old age would not be on this particular memorial.

And legal? Pshaw. As a courtesy, make an effort to contact a family member for permission. And even if a problem evolves later, names can be (painstakingly) removed or covered.

This is a great concept, and I look forward to seeing it someday!

[EMT-83]

... a 60-year member who dies at home of old age...

Just what is the life expectancy in Minnesota these days?

[Smithsonia]

Alamcrn;
Minnesota Life Expectancy? Is at least twice normal. Everyone is frozen half a year and thawed in time to be hit during tornado season. Then life goes on hold during pot-hole repair season... so figure on double, at a minimum.

[Ned]

I think you skimmed over the "at home" part. There is no debate about worthiness, it's a matter of were they "clocked in" on a CAP duty.

Nope, go back and re-read the OP and noted where Col Engleman said:

[ . . .] What do you think should be the criteria for being memorialized?  Obvious memorialization example would be flying an AFAM and crashing.  Probably okay if flying corporate mission, or driving vehicle during mission.  Obvious exclusion example might be an out of shape senior having heart attack sitting at a desk during squadron meeting.  [. . .]

Emphasis added.

Which was what I was addressing.  He specifically invited a discussion about who should be included, and who should be excluded.

And it seems intutitively obvious that members who die "off the clock" need not be included, because we all die and othewise the memorial is simply a listing of everyone who has ever been in CAP.

[RiverAux]

I know on-duty heart attack deaths are included on memorials for law enforcement officers and I am pretty sure this is the case for firefighters as well (I know for a fact that heart-attack deaths are included with wildland firefighter death statistics).  If they were wearing a CAP uniform when they died, they should be included no matter the cause.