Killed in the line of duty - CAP Memorial

[AdAstra]

Todd,

For several years, I've been researching California Wing members killed while serving in CAP. Some were on search missions, several on photo-flights, several on instructional flights, etc. There are well over 24 names, and I still have a number of reported crashes with no names available. I made up a large poster with the names, and display it each year at the wing conference. Once I confirm a few more names I'd like to engrave the names on a plaque in the shape of our wing patch.

I'd be more than happy to send you the list.

FWIW, our state Office of Emergency Services finally built a memorial in Sacramento to volunteers killed on ES missions. CAP's list far outnumbered the other agencies! In fact, I was told by our liaison to OES that he was only going to send our members killed since 1965 or so.

Charles Wiest, Lt Col, CAP
CAWG Director of Professional Development
Long-time CAP history buff

[PlaneFlyr]

I'm enjoying the debate on this, and appreciate the opinions coming in.  Keep it up.

Since the goal is to honor all those "on the clock", I think I can agree about heart attack during meeting. 

Now a couple other scenarios I'm undecided about:
Member doing something stupid or discrediting to CAP?  (ie - badly violating regs or law at the time, doing aerobatics, "hey y'all, watch this!", etc.)
On the way to/from a meeting or mission?
Sitting at home taking CAP online training and have heart attack?

I'm hoping to figure out these gray areas before it becomes an issue in the future.  I know somewhere, some member has died doing something that will not clearly be "on the clock", and we don't want to slight anyone unnecessarily, or cheapen the recognition.

As for the names, we are planning to engrave the name/rank/wing on metal plates affixed to the base of the memorial.  The only time it was displayed (Aug 08 NB meeting) there were no names on it.  There's no current plan to mention how the person died.  However, we'll probably keep a record of each in case someone needs to know.

[swamprat86]

I would ask the question, "Are they covered by our insurance when the incident happened?" as the qualifier for some of the grey areas.  Clearly someone sitting at home in their bunny slippers on the computer wouldn't qualify unless they were working on a mission (i.e. IC, etc).  Recklessness would be a touchy area and would probably be best answered by looking at what similar organizations that do this handle those situations.

[lordmonar]

I think that if you go down the road of trying to determine if the "member doing something stupid or discrediting to CAP" as a bench mark you are going to find that is going to be a very sticky situation.

A lot (if not most) of the deaths related to CAP members can be chalked up to some sort of negligence on the part of the people involved.

The last two aircraft accident deaths all had some sort of negligence involved.  The one up in MNWG (IIRC) they were too low and too slow and the one here at NVWG was CFIT.

If we start drawing a negligence line you are going to get a lot of people bent out of shape.

An intresting question would be.....how do we handle suicide on CAP time.  A few years back there was a squadron in Florida on a trip (I think the squadron was from GAWG or somewhere) one of the cadets had a break-down and killed herself.   They were definatly on CAP time......does she go on the wall or not?

Do you see the problem with trying to include or exclude inviduals based on a lot of subjective variables.

I would suggest to keep if simple.  If the death (or the incident that eventually lead to death) happend on CAP time...put them on the wall.

[tarheel gumby]

The criteria that I am using for my project is Duty related death on CAP time. That includes death from injuries received in connection with CAP duties.

[alamrcn]

Sorry, I'm the one that skimmed some of the OP
And by 60-year member, I meant 60 years of service - not age, which would probably be 75-85 at that point.

No one is ever going to be able to nail down exact requirements in black and white. The best you can do is have a "request review board" and it case-by-case. But certainly, some kind of short Mission Statement is in order.

I kinda like the "as a result of injuries while on CAP duty" idea. I guess that is the nice way to say "caused by what they were doing for CAP, stresses of command not included" - re, heart attack!

[tarheel gumby]

And certainly banging one's head on hard objects won't count either, caused by the stresses of CAP 

[RiverAux]

I agree that if you start trying to parse "stupidity", you're just going down a bad road.  Don't make any judgemenet calls -- If it was on "CAP" time, count it.

In regards to suicide while on CAP time --- I would probably ask if suicide deaths that occurred in Vietnam are on the big wall.  If yes, we probably should follow that example and put them on ours. 

[wingnut55]

I honestly believe that 'Corporate CAP NHQ" is embarrassed because they have an absolutely shoddy record of keeping those or any documents. They may not know all the names. I was reading a New Jersey document that stated 70 Cap members were killed in WWII. Are they paid homage, or respected, it is down right despicable of National HQs lack of sensitivity to the Serving members of CAP. Just who were the poor guys who died in the cold water of the Atlantic while looking for German subs?

It might be a public embarrassment to CAP, I know of one case where the crew returning from a mission were killed and insurance was denied due to some pencil neck BS from the air force, one crews wife did receive money when she sued. maybe there are many cases of Insurance denial. I think CAP is acting like a greedy secretive (in a bad way) company.

I don't use opsec Bull crap, we are not the CIA, and when a person is killed it is public record.

I got my Billy Mitchel in 71, no record?? oh yes no serial number, that tells you how important it was to national at the time, I think they throw away records, important records.

[RiverAux]

The WWII deaths were included in both our earliest written history as well as in the new CAP book that just came out recently (while ignoring all CAP members who died after WWII). 

[Ned]

I got my Billy Mitchel in 71, no record?? oh yes no serial number, that tells you how important it was to national at the time, I think they throw away records, important records.

I hate to ruin such a magnificent diatribe of negativity, but when the USAF employees departed CAP in the early 80s, they disposed of the cadet records archives out of security concerns, along with a lot of other records.  Several dumpster loads, IIRC.

Our current corporate employees have been at the forefront of record retention and preservation. 

And I know it's 20/20 hindsight, but I put my Mitchell certificate in a frame and hung it on the wall in case I needed to prove the award in the future.  Mine doesn't have a number, either, but I know that it is (and was) valued by NHQ.

[wingnut55]

well Critical comments  about a lousy Government corporation management  can be considered  Negative, we can't all roll over and act as if CAP has no retention problem, or we have been embarrassed to find out that numerous wings, and National HQ have been under investigation for fraud and abuse of Federal funds.

Maybe CAP needs more transparency

Oh and my Mitchell was blown away in a Typhon during an assignment in the USAF. That was 1975, they had no record of me being a cadet, maybe they should have just said
" Oh we just throw away your hard work and diligence, besides it is just paper" but I am not mad!!

[RiverAux]

As there have probably been well over a million people in CAP over the history of the organization, it is probably a bit much to expect paperwork retention on all of them.  I was in the Boy Scouts shortly before becoming a cadet and I bet they don't have one scrap of paperwork with my name on it anywhere in their records. 

That being said, we don't have a records retention "problem" -- we actually have a regulation that requires that almost everything be thrown out.   I strongly dislike that regulation and would hope that documents relating to fatal incidents regarding CAP members would make the cut as having permanent historical value, but I wouldn't bet on it.