What Uniform Changes Would You Like To See?

[afgeo4]

We could ask for permission to wear the MEMS badge on the CSU then. 

And, once approved, the number wearing it would be statistically zero.

Right... except it's not an award. It's a qualification badge that means something REAL in the Civil Air Patrol world. It's a standard an officer has met. This badge is to denote particular training (and it definitely means a hell of a lot more than some CPR patch).

I am all for our members participating in the MEMS program and for CAP authorizing the badge.

[Eclipse]

We could ask for permission to wear the MEMS badge on the CSU then. 

And, once approved, the number wearing it would be statistically zero.

Right... except it's not an award. It's a qualification badge that means something REAL in the Civil Air Patrol world. It's a standard an officer has met. This badge is to denote particular training (and it definitely means a hell of a lot more than some CPR patch).

I am all for our members participating in the MEMS program and for CAP authorizing the badge.

This isn't even a military badge - its a State Defense Force program.

Zero chance it's authorized for CAP.

[NAYBOR]

Um....SDFs ARE military.  STATE military, but military none the less.  The MEMS badge is offered to ALL military and other emergency service agencies--US Armed Forces, National Guard, CAP, USCG Aux, etc.  There are National Guard troops that earn this qualification in their respective states and wear it.

Kach, here's a link to the proposed "CMDU" pictures in Word document:

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=J3MWRJMX

(After you click the above link and go to the webpage, enter the 3 letter code toward the top of that page.  Wait for the download timer to reach "0", and the click the "free download" button.  Sorry ahead of time for the long download wait time...)

Yes, that's a MEMS badge in the pictures.  Remember, it's just a PROPOSAL--I know the MEMS badge is not currently authorized.  I just used it as an example of a mini badge, since I have no others (like the CAP EMT badge, etc).  I positioned the top of the mess dress medals with the top of the left welt pocket.  More rows of medals would fall below that.  Sorry I didn't have more medals, or pictures of General Officer bullion boards--only so much fundage for this proposal.  Female "CMDU" would follow the same basic principles, but shirt, ties, etc. would be the same as the female AF mess dress, except black studs would be used (if studs are used with the female mess dress--I don't know).

I don't think it does, but if it was decided that this proposed "CMDU" needed to be "MORE CAP-ish", then the clutch-back CAP mess dress enamel "dinner plate" could be used.  It could maybe be placed where the brushed silver name tag would go, or maybe a 1/2 inch below where the mini medals fall.  The "dinner plate" may even be placed over the middle button of the left row of buttons, if need be.  Again, I don't believe this would be necessary, but I'd rather see the proposal move forward if that would be all that would be required than not at all.

[Short Field]

The State Guard Association of the United States, Inc. (SGAUS) awards the Military Emergency Management Specialist (MEMS) badge.    SGAUS membership must be maintained as a condition for wear of MEMS badges and SGAUS awards.   Officers and civilian annual dues are $25.

Must be a really neat badge to have to pay $25 a year for the honor of wearing it. 

[Eclipse]

Um....SDFs ARE military.  STATE military, but military none the less.  The MEMS badge is offered to ALL military and other emergency service agencies--US Armed Forces, National Guard, CAP, USCG Aux, etc.  There are National Guard troops that earn this qualification in their respective states and wear it.

SDF badges are not approved for wear by any of the 7 US Federal Uniformed services, which means they won't be on a CAP uniform any time soon.

[arajca]

Picking nits...
The orientation of the Capt's bars is 90 degrees off. The bars run parallel with the short edge of the board. Also, covering the button is good, but it looks tacky with the end of the board so far up the epaulet.

What is the source of the boards? Are they the regular AF mess dress boards? If so, why not just use the CAP mess dress boards? How did you attach them? I saw the frogs on the underside of the epualet, but are they part of the board or a contrivance to mount it?

As someone who has earned the basic MEMS badge (and does not wear it), the requirement for membership in the SGAUS is a large burden. Particularly if one does not support some of their views or actions - which is why I quit. IMHO, CAP would do better to develop their own badge utilizing the same criteria...

Except for the shoulder boards, I can put something together for a more impressive picture later...

[Short Field]

I didn't see much in the MEMS qualifications that is not covered in the CAP required Ops Quals.  An AOBD or GBD should meet most of the qualifications - especially after 31 Dec.  CAP does have a badge for qualification in Emergency Management - the Incident Commander Badge.  Anything less and you are working under supervision.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

I see a couple of things in this thread that haven't been beaten to death yet, though I think they should be in another thread.

"SMWOG," "OC," "Officers and cadets," etc....

A couple of you have said "SMWOG" is a made-up Internet abbreviation. It is. "SM" is what you call a senior member without grade. They're not "officers" or "officer candidates," as some of them will keep their EM grade. None of them should wear officer uniform appurtenances. None of them are automatic "officer candidates," though certainly they may pin on butterbars later.

I'm almost sick to my stomach to see all senior members called "officers," just to get away from calling them "senior members." While the preponderance of us are officers, or claim to be, there are many who aren't. As much as some of us may not like being called "senior members," that term is more appropriate, unless you want to say "officers and airmen" instead to identify senior members.

Officer uniform items for people below the grade of second lieutenant

That AFROTC cadets wear officer braid on their flight caps is no reason for CAP SMs without grade to wear them -- AFROTC cadets wear braid because they're in an officer accession program. CAP is not an OA program, whether for cadets or seniors.

Comparing the uniforms of CAP members at any age or grade to AFROTC is apples and watermelons, not apples and oranges.

A flight officer is not an officer. While the CAPM 39-1 says they wear officer uniform appurtenances, it is an oversight in the CAPM 39-1 where it conflicts with CAPR 35-5 and a certain amount of common sense. You must be at least 21 to be an officer in CAP, and flight officers do not meet that standard.

A cadet is not an officer. Cadet officers are not officers -- they are cadets. They also do not wear officer uniform items.

An SM is also not an officer.

Why is that so difficult for some of our members to figure out? And why is the authority on uniform wear, CAPM 39-1, as well as our daily parlance inside CAP, in conflict with other regulations that govern who is and who is not an officer?

Why so much discussion about uniforms on this site?

Probably because of a few factors, including these two reasons that will surely start a flame war:
1. The uniforms we have are a confusing mess, especially since the immediate past national commander muddied the waters even more (TPU, flag on BDU, etc., etc.).
2. We have people in our ranks hung up on uniforms.

Yes, we have issues with our uniforms. But the best thing we could do is strip the crazy bling and start over, based on the Air Force uniforms and one practical CAP counterpart each. I don't think CAP uniforms should look like those of a banana-republic army's generals, do you?

[Pylon]

Why is that so difficult for some of our members to figure out? And why is the authority on uniform wear, CAPM 39-1, as well as our daily parlance inside CAP, in conflict with other regulations that govern who is and who is not an officer?

Do not confuse who wears officer uniform items with who is considered an "officer" in the organization.  Just because you are allowed to wear certain uniform items doesn't change your grade/rank/membership class - it's merely a uniform item.  The grade/rank/membership class is still defined elsewhere regardless of what uniform items the member is authorized to wear.

The AFROTC comparison does make sense here.  These are people who are not, at present time, officers.  Maybe many of them will become officers down the road, if they complete certain training - but maybe many senior members without grade will become officers down the road, too, if they complete certain training.   These not-at-present-time officers (AFROTC cadets), however, do wear officer uniform items such as the officer flight cap and service jacket sleeve braid - it doesn't make them considered as officers because they're wearing it.

[SAR-EMT1]

Uh... I never wore sleeve braid in the AFROTC program.
Silver braid on the overseas cap, yes.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

The officer-braid flight cap is not just a "uniform item." It denotes that you are a company grade or field grade officer. (And it gets brighter when you get a star.) It is also worn by cadets in the Air Force's three officer-accession programs, but we'll get back to AFROTC, OTS and USAFA in a bit.

If you are a SMWOG, you have NO rank or grade. You'll take Level 1 and CPPT, but every senior member is required CPPT and Level 1 is required for all seniors to make ANY grade at all. It doesn't make you an officer, or a pseudo-officer, or whatever. You can't wear indices of grade (braid, stripes or bars, etc.) when you have no grade to begin with.

For an SMWOG to be considered an officer by virtue of being a senior member would mean that an enlisted senior member, who outranks that SMWOG, is also an officer. EPIC FAIL.

No one with grade below butterbars is an officer, and CAP regulations also stipulate that. The cold, hard truth is in CAPM 35-5, section A. You don't get into that club without an ID card that has your grade on it.

Now... AFROTC is an officer accession (OA) program. It is one of three OA programs in the Air Force (the others being USAFA and OTS) -- they are specifically officer programs. They wear officer flight caps because of their OA program's specific nature, and yes, they have rank as cadets in all three organizations. (But don't confuse their cadet status with that of our teenage cadets or JROTC's, neither of which wear officer appurtenances nor are a direct commissioning route.)

[SarDragon]

I see a couple of things in this thread that haven't been beaten to death yet, though I think they should be in another thread.

"SMWOG," "OC," "Officers and cadets," etc....

A couple of you have said "SMWOG" is a made-up Internet abbreviation. It is. "SM" is what you call a senior member without grade.

The use of SM as you suggest leads to an ambiguity. It can refer to all non-cadet members, or it can refer to the specific subset having no grade. The use of SMWOG eliminates that ambiguity.

YMMV.

[MIKE]

1-4. Initial Grades. All senior members will be enrolled as CAP senior members without grade, unless they are specifically exempt from Level I of the Senior Member Professional Development Program and immediately qualify for an officer grade in consideration of previous CAP experience, as set forth in section C.

Emphasis mine.

Back to the uniform ranting.

[NAYBOR]

Concerning the mess dress boards and orientation of the Capt bars--OOPS!  Thanks for telling me about that--I should have automatically realized that they should have the same orientation on the boards as hard rank on  the epaulettes--sorry about that.  I am a little embarrased that I didn't take more time to do that for a presentation I spent so much time doing--I was trying to get the pictures "to market" as soon as I could.  My sincere apologies...

I used the black AFROTC hard boards to make these.  I remember from my time as an AFROTC cadet that they were clutch-back, and could easily be attached to the coat epaulettes.  Yes, the boards were moved up a little further on the epaulettes to help cover the actual epaulette button.  In some pictures I took, I actually put the lapel collar on top of the board points, which didn't look too bad, but I don't think it should work that way.  A way to attach the boards and keep the epaulettes "tied down" without the button underneath showing is the challenge.  I'll try to work on a very easy solution, if possible.  The pictures show the easiest solution I could come up with at this time.  And, by the way, the hard rank DOES have to come off, or risk being exposed.  The AFROTC boards somehow cover the AF coat epaulette button, these should be able to do the same too, I figure, for the CSU.  I didn't use the CAP mess dres sboards because I wanted to use silver braiding to match the silver braiding on the sleves.  Also, with the black boards, they would match the black bow tie, studs and cuff links required for any commercially available tux shirt with this uniform.  They are also distinctive from the AF mess dress boards, which have a blue background.

Eclipse, I know you are correct concerning the MEMS badge--that's why I don't ever wear it on my CAP uniforms at any time.  I just figured it couldn't hurt to ask, no matter how slim the chance of getting that permission would be.  Miracles DO happen. 

Continued comments are welcome.  And thank you all for your open and honest opinions.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

I see a couple of things in this thread that haven't been beaten to death yet, though I think they should be in another thread.

"SMWOG," "OC," "Officers and cadets," etc....

A couple of you have said "SMWOG" is a made-up Internet abbreviation. It is. "SM" is what you call a senior member without grade.

The use of SM as you suggest leads to an ambiguity. It can refer to all non-cadet members, or it can refer to the specific subset having no grade. The use of SMWOG eliminates that ambiguity.

YMMV.

I don't mind that we call them SMWOGs here, as long as we know it's Internet shorthand.

But traditionally, they're "senior members," and they use the SM abbreviation and, like flight officers, they're called "mister," "miss" or "Mrs." They ain't OCs....

I always had a problem calling senior members "senior members," because they don't carry a "S/" before their rank as cadets do. They're officers, flight officers and airmen. "Adult" members even works better. Or just "members" and "cadets."

Of course, if it was up to me, a senior member without grade would be called an Airman Basic.

[SarDragon]

I agree that "adult member" is a better term, but "senior member" has been the referential term since long before I joined in 1964. It will be a very difficult change to make, IMHO.

YMMV.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

I agree that "adult member" is a better term, but "senior member" has been the referential term since long before I joined in 1964. It will be a very difficult change to make, IMHO.

YMMV.

And when I joined 20 years after you, in 1984....

(aaargh, no war stories!)

[Hoorah]

um check for uniform updates i would like us to be able to  wear air force stockings.

[jimmydeanno]

um check for uniform updates i would like us to be able to  wear air force stockings.

Just out of curiosity, what are these "stockings" you are referring to?  You mentioned in the other thread you wanted to wear them on your head?  As for socks, the Air Force doesn't have a specific one.

[BillB]

Buckeye
Since when was the Flight Officer grades NOT officers?  Reread the regulation. FO are officers, wear the blue and silver braid on flight caps.