What Uniform Changes Would You Like To See?

[Pumbaa]

The stockings with the line running down the back?

no no no .. leave them on....

PANAMA!!!

Sorry.. had too!

[JohnKachenmeister]

Um....SDFs ARE military.  STATE military, but military none the less.  The MEMS badge is offered to ALL military and other emergency service agencies--US Armed Forces, National Guard, CAP, USCG Aux, etc.  There are National Guard troops that earn this qualification in their respective states and wear it.

Kach, here's a link to the proposed "CMDU" pictures in Word document:

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=J3MWRJMX

(After you click the above link and go to the webpage, enter the 3 letter code toward the top of that page.  Wait for the download timer to reach "0", and the click the "free download" button.  Sorry ahead of time for the long download wait time...)

Yes, that's a MEMS badge in the pictures.  Remember, it's just a PROPOSAL--I know the MEMS badge is not currently authorized.  I just used it as an example of a mini badge, since I have no others (like the CAP EMT badge, etc).  I positioned the top of the mess dress medals with the top of the left welt pocket.  More rows of medals would fall below that.  Sorry I didn't have more medals, or pictures of General Officer bullion boards--only so much fundage for this proposal.  Female "CMDU" would follow the same basic principles, but shirt, ties, etc. would be the same as the female AF mess dress, except black studs would be used (if studs are used with the female mess dress--I don't know).

I don't think it does, but if it was decided that this proposed "CMDU" needed to be "MORE CAP-ish", then the clutch-back CAP mess dress enamel "dinner plate" could be used.  It could maybe be placed where the brushed silver name tag would go, or maybe a 1/2 inch below where the mini medals fall.  The "dinner plate" may even be placed over the middle button of the left row of buttons, if need be.  Again, I don't believe this would be necessary, but I'd rather see the proposal move forward if that would be all that would be required than not at all.

I like the CMDU.  Don't know if anybody else will.

[Hawk200]

Reduce the amount of badges that one can wear on the BDU's.  Some members look like Formula One race car drivers!

Badges aren't the problem, it's the patches. The Air Force allows three badges on the ABU. I think we could reduce many of our patches into badge type of qualification indicators, and get most of what we really need or want to show on the utility uniform within that boundary, but still maintain CAP distinctiveness. Just got to work on it.

[AlphaSigOU]

After seeing the pics of the proposed CMDU:

Not bad at all. Other than the minor positional glitches of grade insignia that were already discussed, I'm OK with it.

As for the mini medals: I'd position them so that the bottom row of medals does not go below the lowest seam of the welt pocket. Miniature size wings (IMHO) looks too small on what is essentially a ceremonial service dress uniform, so I'd keep the choice of wearing full size or miniature badges but don't mix and match unless there's no equivalent. I'll have to order a pair of mess dress boards to see if an attachment idea I have in mind works.

[O-Rex]

I hate to throw another monkey-wrench in the works, and it's not like we really need another ICL,  but last year USAF made a number of changes to their uniform regs that has been totally ignored by CAP, i.e., auth wearing black rigger's belts on BDU's, male flight cap as an option for females, wear of the silver nameplate on the pullover sweater, etc.

In keeping our USAF-style unies up to date with those of our patrons, you wouls think that someone would have taken notice (?)

[wuzafuzz]

Um....SDFs ARE military.  STATE military, but military none the less.  The MEMS badge is offered to ALL military and other emergency service agencies--US Armed Forces, National Guard, CAP, USCG Aux, etc.  There are National Guard troops that earn this qualification in their respective states and wear it.

SDF badges are not approved for wear by any of the 7 US Federal Uniformed services, which means they won't be on a CAP uniform any time soon.

Are our CAP specific badges authorized for wear on any of the 7 Federal Uniformed Services uniforms?  We wear them on our CAP uniforms, including the AF variants.  Just wondering.  

The MEMS badge would have a place, I believe.  It's relatively well known and would mean something to some of the agencies we play with when working disaster relief or other emergencies.  The MEMS badge on a 1st Lt would be more meaningful at a command post than a Basic ES rating decorated with silver oak leaves.   I'd be all for it as a way to recognize the serious ES players who aren't on a path to IC.  Are CUL's less deserving of recognition than Ground Team Members?

The problem arises with the required membership in the State Guard Association for continuing wear.  Pay once to cover admin costs?  OK.  $25 a year?  Nope!  Unless CAP made some sort of arrangement with State Guard Ass'n to exempt us from annual fees, few who could qualify for the award would bother to wear it.  

A CAP variant of the same award?  Maybe, but it wouldn't be recognizable by the non-CAP folks we play with.  Kind of throws recognition out the window.  Then again, few outside CAP recognize our IC or ground team badges.  

[Hawk200]

Are our CAP specific badges authorized for wear on any of the 7 Federal Uniformed Services uniforms?  

No, they're not.

A CAP variant of the same award?  Maybe, but it wouldn't be recognizable by the non-CAP folks we play with.  Kind of throws recognition out the window.  Then again, few outside CAP recognize our IC or ground team badges.  

I would agree. The Air Force has a bad tendency to want to work and play with others, but they don't allow the wear of other service badges. I don't think CAP should restrict those at all. I think the MEMS badge on CAP uniforms would show a willingness to both recognize qualifications from outside the organization, and the willingness to work with other agencies that recognize the same thing. The MEMS Academy has mutual goals with our ES program, and I think it fitting that the badge would be worn by our own.

[Eclipse]

I would agree. The Air Force has a bad tendency to want to work and play with others, but they don't allow the wear of other service badges. I don't think CAP should restrict those at all. I think the MEMS badge on CAP uniforms would show a willingness to both recognize qualifications from outside the organization, and the willingness to work with other agencies that recognize the same thing. The MEMS Academy has mutual goals with our ES program, and I think it fitting that the badge would be worn by our own.

There's a lot of agencies that have "mutual goals" with CAP, that doesn't mean we should start wearing their badges.  Frame the cert and put it on your wall.

I suppose I'm sheltered, but this is the first time I've even heard of MEMS - with all the talk about NIMS compliance, which actually does potentially bring us interagency cooperation and potential for funding, I don't see some SDF program being part of CAP nomenclature any time soon.

[JohnKachenmeister]

The problems with the MEMS badge as I see it:

1.  It is specifically an award limited to State Guard units.  Not all states have a State Guard.  (Florida used to, but disbanded it).  The award is part of a package of SG awards that apply ONLY to members of the SG.  They cannot even be worn on uniforms of the National Guard, should a SG member join his federally-recognized NG force.  Traditionally, NO state awards are worn on the CAP uniform.

2.  We already have a badge that recognizes essentially the same achievement as the MEMS badge, the Incident Commander Badge.  It may not be an exact match, but it is close.

3.  As far as "Working closely with other agencies," I have long felt that CAP wings should be under the operational control of the state AG/Air in order to provide the "Unity of Command" necessary to carry out our Congressionally-imposed mandates of providing light aircraft support to states and local communities.  IF we were so OPCON'ed, I would be willing to revisit the issue of the MEMS badge.  But right now, we have no organizational connection to the Guard (either state or national), so I don't see the problem that the badge might fix.

[Hawk200]

There's a lot of agencies that have "mutual goals" with CAP, that doesn't mean we should start wearing their badges.  Frame the cert and put it on your wall.

Didn't say should, said it would show solidarity with like mission agencies. Not the same.

On another point, every badge you wear is essentially a "certificate". It shows you have completed required training to perform a job. What difference does it make that CAP gave it to you or not? Does the fact that the badge and training are not CAP developed mean that the training has no value? Food for thought.

I suppose I'm sheltered, but this is the first time I've even heard of MEMS - with all the talk about NIMS compliance, which actually does potentially bring us interagency cooperation and potential for funding, ...

Best place to start: http://www.sgaus.org/MEMS.html . It seems to be a pretty in-depth course, covering a lot of NIMS stuff, as well as content from a few other agencies. Download the student handbook, it covers a lot.

[Hawk200]

1.  It is specifically an award limited to State Guard units. 

The SGA website shows very few requirements for participation: Current SGAUS membership is required and all military and civilian members in good standing with SGAUS may enroll in the Basic MEMS qualification program. Which means it is not limited to State Guard units, or even State Guard members. The award is very much an individual one.

The award is part of a package of SG awards that apply ONLY to members of the SG.

As I pointed out above, incorrect. The SGA does not put forth any such criteria. They even specifically state "Permission to officially wear the MEMS badges and/or patches depends solely on state military authority and regulations and not SGAUS or the MEMS Academy". Which means that membership in both the SGA and a State Guard does not even entitle a State Guard member to its wear. The same applies to all SGA awards. Noone is entitled to wear any of them just because they're a member. The local SG chain of command must premit it.

Traditionally, NO state awards are worn on the CAP uniform.

That is incorrect, and if you thought about it, you'd realize it. I have old copies of 39-1 that do show state awards. They were worn below all military and CAP ribbons. Dig into your own old copies, you'll find it. So the statement of tradition is inaccurate. Only in the last few years has that allowance been written out of our pubs.

2.  We already have a badge that recognizes essentially the same achievement as the MEMS badge, the Incident Commander Badge.  It may not be an exact match, but it is close.

I honestly feel that the only person that can make such a judgement is someone that has both. Do you? It's kinda like the difference when it comes to people that say hurricanes are worse than earthquakes, but have never been through both events. Any judgement made without experience on both sides is supposition and opinion.

As one person stated above, other agencies don't recognize our GT and IC badges. Now, to be honest, I doubt that the MEMS badge would automatically endow a wear with seeming infallibility, but I think it will be far more recognized in the future than our own unique insignia.

3.  As far as "Working closely with other agencies," I have long felt that CAP wings should be under the operational control of the state AG/Air in order to provide the "Unity of Command" necessary to carry out our Congressionally-imposed mandates of providing light aircraft support to states and local communities.

I would agree. There are a few states that are more closely aligned under their AG's, and when it comes to the operational side, the organization shows benefits when it comes to response time.

But right now, we have no organizational connection to the Guard (either state or national), so I don't see the problem that the badge might fix.

Who said there's a problem to fix? What problem was fixed by creating an IC badge? I don't really know of any. Our IC qualified people are still IC qualified whether they have a badge or not. And when it comes to Incidents, the staff are usually wearing some type of clippy badge or a hi-vis vest with the title "Incident Commander" in about the largest print that can be fit onto the article. What does an IC badge do that those items don't?

What problem is fixed by allowing Air Force badges on a CAP uniform? Don't know of any there either. The knowledge someone gained in the Air Force is still valuable, even if they don't show it on their uniform.

Even if we did end up with an organizational connection with the State agencies, there is still no problem that gets "fixed". Not every action or solution is to deal with a problem.

Then again, I may be completely against the idea (contrary to what I've said otherwise), and am only playing Devil's Advocate to see if I can convince you. However, if it's going to be debate, we need to stick to facts. Opinions are OK, as long as they are stated as such.

As a reminder, I'm not attacking, just debating. I know I can be considered abrasive, so keep in mind that this isn't meant to be heated. I am very willing to continue the debate. I'd  like to see more viewpoints.

[Ned]

I am leary of the SGAUS/MEMS issue for a couple of reasons:

1.  SGAUS is a private corporation, just like NGUAS or AUSA.  They could be here next year or gone.  They could change their rules, curricula, or costs anytime they choose.

2.  As others have pointed out, they require paid membership to take the course and wear their badge.  I can't think of any other award or decoration that requires annual dues to wear on the uniform.  That seems like a terrible precedent.

3.  That said, they did do a pretty good job of selecting from among the various FEMA and allied agency distance learning courses to establish the curriculum.  The knowledge is a good thing -- indeed probably something that every CAP member should have.  But there is no reason that CAP could not simply take the project in-house and create our own CAP MEMS, based on a customized selection of the same FEMA and National Fire Academy courses that SGAUS' MEMS draws upon.


And FWIW, the California NG is in the process of revising their regs that will permit NG soldiers and airmen to wear the MEMS badge while in state status.  The CA SMR already strongly encourages the badge and permits its wear.

Ned Lee

[Hawk200]

I am leary of the SGAUS/MEMS issue for a couple of reasons:

1.  SGAUS is a private corporation, just like NGUAS or AUSA.  They could be here next year or gone.  They could change their rules, curricula, or costs anytime they choose

A good point. Hadn't thought of that. If there was a Federal level organization that put forth concrete criteria for any SG type of awards, there would be far more validity to any awards. But, then it wouldn't be a state controlled militia, now would it?

2.  As others have pointed out, they require paid membership to take the course and wear their badge.  I can't think of any other award or decoration that requires annual dues to wear on the uniform.  That seems like a terrible precedent.

Kind of a deal breaker there, isn't it? It is truly a disturbing precedent. If they were a completely non-profit organization, and charged for enrollment in the course (which is perfectly reasonable considering most extensive courses require payment for the instruction), and only charged for things like additional copies of certificates or badges then it wouldn't be an issue. But an annual payment for authorization to wear is definitely something to be considered.

3.  That said, they did do a pretty good job of selecting from among the various FEMA and allied agency distance learning courses to establish the curriculum.  The knowledge is a good thing -- indeed probably something that every CAP member should have. 

I'd agree. I did quake relief in California after the Northridge shake, and I have a feeling that if even a small majority of the agencies that participated had been actively trained in the NIMS program, it probably would have been far smoother. Since the advantages of ICS are obvious in events run only by a single organization, it would have helped us just as much internally. When you got your own house in order, it's easier to work with the nieghborhood.

But there is no reason that CAP could not simply take the project in-house and create our own CAP MEMS, based on a customized selection of the same FEMA and National Fire Academy courses that SGAUS' MEMS draws upon.

No reason against it, but what is the point of duplicating training? ICS 100 is gonna be the same, no matter who creates it. It would be simple copycatting, and most people would figure it out.

If people really want a CAP unique badge, then have them enroll in the SGAUS course, bring the certificate in when complete, annotate and file it in the members personnel record, and award the CAP specific badge. It's an idea, but I don't see the point of creating another badge that means the same thing.

Then again, we give a badge for pilot's wings, and CAP doesn't train pilots (at least not up to the FAA levels our mission pilots are qualified. Same with EMT/medical, legal, and similar badges. There is precedence in that direction.

And FWIW, the California NG is in the process of revising their regs that will permit NG soldiers and airmen to wear the MEMS badge while in state status.  The CA SMR already strongly encourages the badge and permits its wear.

Nice to see it recognized, but with the precedent that you pointed out above, I'm really not sure if that may be a good thing. Have to think on it further.

[Hawk200]

Anyway, back to the original topic at hand.

I agree with cleaning up the various insignia across the dress uniforms. One shirt nametag for any dress shirt, one nametag for any dress coat, all the same color including cadets.

Same with epaulets. I don't see why cadets should wear a different color epaulet than seniors. If someone can't tell the difference between a cadet's rank insignia and a seniors without a color difference, then they need to either learn the difference, or get their eyes checked. One color for all epaulets. Simple and far more uniform.

I'm beginning to agree that we have far too many patches on our utility uniforms (and by utility uniforms, I'm considering the BDU, BBDU, and the hopefully soon to be adopted ABU). The Air Force allows three badges on the ABU (one above branch tape, one on the left pocket). To minimize the cluttered look, make the badges the same colors as AF ones on the ABU. I would suggest a fourth over the nametag, such as a badge indicating ES qual in lieu of the Pluto patch, or a commanders badge (but that's all). 

Speaking of CC badge, why do we have two separate ones? Either eliminate one, or both and design a combination of the two. When it comes to that, mirror AF standards, they make sense. Over tape or name tag for sitting CC, below nametape/tag for graduated. While we're at it, ditch the Command service ribbon, it really isn't needed, we've got loads of ribbons already.

Not really a change, but I hope that the ABU doesn't use the "ultramarine" blue tapes we use now, they look ridiculous. I still think navy blue tapes and rank are the way to go. With the subdued background badges I mentioned above, it wouldn't look cluttered (although the color differences would take a bit to get used to).

I also agree with mirroring the Air Force on uniform changes. We shouldn't be wearing outdated items that the Air Force has phased out for the simple reason that we just haven't gotten around to updating our uniform manual. When the Air Force makes changes, send out changes for the pubs within the quarter. Most of us CAP part-timers have the time to write supplements locally, there's plenty of time for someone to do it, and just have National review and retransmit. I think most of us know about AF uniform changes before National seems to officially know anyway. Little things like socks, belts, t-shirts, etc don't really require a National Board vote on it.

And for the fish, ask again for the brown leather A-2. I know we probably wouldn't get it, but we got to give them something to turn down. 

[Eclipse]

While we're at it, ditch the Command service ribbon, it really isn't needed, we've got loads of ribbons already.

You're kidding, right?  You're making impassioned arguments about us wearing a badge from some other random organization but want to drop a decoration that actually denotes real CAP service?

[Hawk200]

While we're at it, ditch the Command service ribbon, it really isn't needed, we've got loads of ribbons already.

You're kidding, right?  You're making impassioned arguments about us wearing a badge from some other random organization but want to drop a decoration that actually denotes real CAP service?

Fact 1: We have Commanders badges. One squadron, one group. The Air Force has a commanders badge, but there is only one. Where do you think CAP got the idea for it?

My suggestion is to A) eliminate one of them (either the squadron or group CC badge) and use the remaining one for all command positions regardless of level, or B) eliminate both of them, create an either completely new design or one combining elements of both and use that. The idea there is one badge, not two.

Fact 2: We have a Command Service ribbon, the Air Force doesn't. How do they recognize Command Service? By stipulating that a former commander is authorized to wear the Commander's badge below their nametag.

My suggestion there is to mirror the Air Force. The member simply moves the badge down on the uniform. If such a practice was authorized for CAP, then it would indicate Command Service, and a second award for the same thing wouldn't be necessary. So eliminate the ribbon, we've got plenty as it is.

I wasn't talking about eliminating recognition of service, only recognizing it in a different manner. A totally new commander (meaning no prior experience as a CC) wouldn't necessarily have a CSR. But moving the badge, that he/she already has, down to below the nametag is pretty simple. I'm sure most commanders are quite capable of it.

[Eclipse]

The USAF doesn't have Encampment, NCSA, Find, DR, or CAC ribbons, either.  By that logic we should dump those as well.

Command service in CAP is very different at the different levels and should continue to be recognized as such.  The way we do it today makes perfect sense in our world - only sitting CC's wear the badge, and their service is then recognized with a ribbon going forward.

A lot of members already have the space below the name tag occupied with a specialty badge.

It never ceases to amaze me what people latch onto with regard to uniforms.

[DNall]

Of course, if it was up to me, a senior member without grade would be called an Airman Basic.

As I said before, the grade "SM" is currently the equiv of Airman Basic & carries no insignia. That also requires an enlisted flight cap for six months & "CAP" cutouts pinned thru the shirt collar that look the same as a C/AB & damage the shirt (not a problem for cadets that will be pinning grade there for the next 2yrs & will grow out of it by then).

I think it would be better if we did use the blank CAP epaulet slide with the officer flight cap & call them officer candidates. They are in fact candidates to become officers (to include FOs). NCOs are appointed directly to their NCO grade w/o wait time.

Regarding the MEMS Badge, it's a slick looking badge, I'll give them that. BUT, it's not going to be authorized for CAP. CAP's uniforms are federal uniforms & abide by what the AF will permit its own active duty personnel to wear on them, plus CAP specific items which are each authorized by AF. No outside badge not allowed on active duty AF uniforms will ever be authorized. And, that's the end of that story.

If CAP wants to create an emergency mgmt badge (and I don't know why since we have a disaster relief ribbon) then we can do that. What'd be better is to update the requirements for the disaster relief ribbon. remove the DR ribbon with V for participation in a national disaster, and change that to an achievement award or commendation with E or something more appropriate (never liked use of the V).

[Hawk200]

The USAF doesn't have Encampment, NCSA, Find, DR, or CAC ribbons, either.  By that logic we should dump those as well.

I think a few of those could be reduced too. To me, a lot of awards are simply "biding time". Eliminate a few of the extras, consolidate a few.

Command service in CAP is very different at the different levels and should continue to be recognized as such.  The way we do it today makes perfect sense in our world - only sitting CC's wear the badge, and their service is then recognized with a ribbon going forward.

In a manner it does make sense. But the only real reason that we have both the CSR and the CC badge is because we created a CSR well before the Air Force thought about a CC badge. It would be a simple realignment to mirror the Air Force, and wouldn't require an additional purchase. Those who aren't willing or incapable of accepting change are the ones who get left behind.

A lot of members already have the space below the name tag occupied with a specialty badge.

On blues, you're only allowed four badges anyway, which is a perfectly reasonable rule. I think most people wouldn't really have a problem with the choice. Personally, I'd wear the CC badge (in a graduated position) on some occasions, my specialty badge on others. Most people with multiple badges can't wear them all on one individual uniform anyway, so many do the same thing.

It never ceases to amaze me what people latch onto with regard to uniforms.

Don't see what's so "amazing" about it. The topic is "What Uniform Changes Would You Like To See?". I responded. I'm as entitled to my own opinion as much as you are to yours. You've made one input on what you'd like to see, and then either expressions of dramatic shock or definitive statements on what I or someone else would. I'm not going to change my opinion simply because you don't like it.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Of course, if it was up to me, a senior member without grade would be called an Airman Basic.

As I said before, the grade "SM" is currently the equiv of Airman Basic & carries no insignia. That also requires an enlisted flight cap for six months & "CAP" cutouts pinned thru the shirt collar that look the same as a C/AB & damage the shirt (not a problem for cadets that will be pinning grade there for the next 2yrs & will grow out of it by then).

I think it would be better if we did use the blank CAP epaulet slide with the officer flight cap & call them officer candidates. They are in fact candidates to become officers (to include FOs). NCOs are appointed directly to their NCO grade w/o wait time.

Quick response, since I'm sneaking a break at work:

1. Flight officers are not officers. Never were, never will be.

2. If you're ruining the shirt putting pins in it, you're doing it wrong!

3. Calling an off-the-street new CAP member an "officer candidate" is inaccurate, and maybe a little unfair. Like I say, I'd rather call them airmen basic. Especially when the NCO corps (finally) rejuvenates. Maybe then, calling someone up for officer grade an officer candidate would be OK.