Additional Awards of Disaster Ribbon with "V"

[DrDave]

Here's a question from one of my squadron commanders that I couldn't answer right away.

Are additional award devices authorized for the Disaster Relief Ribbon with "V" Device, i.e. the one for participation in Presidential declared disasters?

Can'f find authorization for such in CAPR 39-3.

Thanks,
Dr. Dave

[Eclipse]

No, it is worn either without an attachment for 5 sorties and the requisite training, or with a "V" for participation in the relief effort of a presidentially declared disaster.

f. Disaster Relief Ribbon. Awarded for participation in five actual/evaluated disaster relief
missions and completion of two of the following requirements:
(1) All of the following Red Cross courses:
(a) Introduction to Disaster Services: How the Red Cross Chapter Renders Emergency Assistance
(b) Disaster Damage Assessment
(c) Shelter Management
(2) The Red Cross course, Damage Assessment Supervision in Disaster
(3) The Red Cross course, Cardio-Pulmonary Resuscitation and Advanced First Aid
(4) Radiological Monitoring for Instructors
(5) Radiological Defense Officer Course
(6) Airborne Radiological Monitoring Course
(7) Participation in other equivalent disaster relief activities totaling at least 40 hours of
activity certified by disaster relief agency. This could include any training similar to the above courses and/or
actual mission activity (in addition to the five required missions).

g. Disaster Relief Ribbon with "V" Device. The Disaster Relief Ribbon with a "V" device may be
awarded to any CAP member who participates in a disaster relief effort for a Presidential declared disaster.
Participation must be verified by the on-scene commander. Participation in any Presidential declared
disaster since 1990 qualifies.

If attachments for additional activity were authorized, they would be indicated in the verbiage for the decoration.
In this case, since the basic ribbon is awarded for classroom participation as well as 5 sorties, there is no mechanism indicated for just additional sorties, so to earn an attachment, one would need 5 more sorties >and< to retake all the classes.

I suppose an argument could be made to NHQ that based on the above requirements, every 40 hours+5 sorties (so a minimum of 60 hours of DR missions) should qualify for an attachment, and if you're doing that much legit DR with CAP you should probably get something, but as of today that is not authorized or even on the table for consideration (AFAIK).

[jb512]

I concur.  After reviewing the regs for the two different awards of the ribbon, there don't seem to be any additional clasps authorized.

[DrDave]

Thanks, that's how I interpreted the regs as well, i.e. no additional clasps.

Say, these are two different ribbons awarded, correct?

I.e. a member who has qualified for both can wear both ribbons at the same time.  It's not a decision between wearing the DR ribbon without clasp or the DR ribbon with V device.

Since they're listed separately in the regs, I had assumed they were two different ribbons.

Dr. Dave

[MIKE]

Nah... one or the other, but not both.

[Major Carrales]

Nah... one or the other, but not both.

I agree, there is something not aesthetically pleasing about having a "double of a ribbon."  In fact, if I should ever be awarded something beyond the clasps (and I can't imagine what they might ever be) I will simply "call it a day" and were the one loaded ribbon.

The Disaster Relief Ribbon with a V is such a strange award en re how it is awarded comapred to how the regular one is.  Seem like it might be better to simply have added another ribon for that purpose, or have had one meet the critieria for the Disaster Relief ribbon prior.  Simply make the award of the V retroactive once the the award criteria as been met.

[ctrossen]

The Disaster Relief Ribbon with a V is such a strange award en re how it is awarded comapred to how the regular one is.  Seem like it might be better to simply have added another ribon for that purpose, or have had one meet the critieria for the Disaster Relief ribbon prior.  Simply make the award of the V retroactive once the the award criteria as been met.

The DR Ribbon w/"V" is very much a strange award, added apparently without thought to how it interacts with all of CAP's other activity & service awards.

Look at 39-3. The Disaster Relief Ribbon and the Disaster Relief Ribbon with "V" Device are two separate awards/ribbons! To earn the Disaster Relief Ribbon, you have to participate in five separate missions (not sorties) and complete two of seven other requirements. To earn the DR Ribbon w/"V" you only have to participate in a DR mission in support of a Presidentially Declared Diaster.

So, you could earn them both and wear them both. There's no military analogue to having two separate decorations that use the same ribbon, just with different attachments (at least that I'm aware of), though AFROTC does set that precedent (IIRC the Drill Team ribbon is the same as another, just with an attachment that says "drill team").

Then again, I don't know anyone who actually *does* wear them both. We've got a number of members in the wing that are certainly eligible, but don't.

As to attachments... depends on if you take the view that a ribbon's description has to indicate how to wear additional clasps or if you take this passage on face value:

6. Repetitive Awards:
a. Only one award will be made for a single act of
heroism, a single meritorious achievement, or one
continuous period of meritorious service.
b. Subsequent awards of the same decoration or
ribbon are denoted by the CAP bronze clasp, worn on the
ribbon of the original award. A CAP silver clasp is
equivalent to, and is worn in the place of, five bronze
claps. They are illustrated in Attachment 2.

My interpretation is that, assuming participation on multiple Presidentially-Declared disasters, you would be able to wear multiple clasps. But then you run into the case of how to actually wear that--without guidance, would you equate the "V" to a Propeller device and keep it centered, or would you do what the US military does and keep that the right of any other devices?

Good questions...

[AlphaSigOU]

This snippet from my guide on the proper wear of CAP ribbons:

When multiples of the same award or other special conditions apply, devices are attached on the ribbon.

Wear a maximum of four devices on each ribbon, except where noted in CAP Regulation 39-3. Place silver devices to the wearer's right of bronze devices. Replace the bronze devices with a silver device after receipt of the fifth bronze device.

If all authorized devices do not fit on a single ribbon, wear a second ribbon. Wear a minimum of three devices on the first ribbon before wearing a second ribbon. When wearing the second ribbon, place after the initial ribbon. It counts for one award. When future awards reduce devices to a single ribbon, remove the second ribbon.

Granted, this is cribbed from AFI 36-2903 but a good rule of thumb to follow. I'd probably follow the military rule and place the 'V' device to the wearer's right of any other clasps.

P.S. I'm working on a new, revised edition...  (shameless plug)

[DrDave]

Look at 39-3. The Disaster Relief Ribbon and the Disaster Relief Ribbon with "V" Device are two separate awards/ribbons! To earn the Disaster Relief Ribbon, you have to participate in five separate missions (not sorties) and complete two of seven other requirements. To earn the DR Ribbon w/"V" you only have to participate in a DR mission in support of a Presidentially Declared Diaster.

So, you could earn them both and wear them both. There's no military analogue to having two separate decorations that use the same ribbon, just with different attachments (at least that I'm aware of), though AFROTC does set that precedent (IIRC the Drill Team ribbon is the same as another, just with an attachment that says "drill team").

While I agree that it appears that no additional clasps are authorized for either award, I do not agree that they are the same ribbon and should not be worn at the same time.

As noted above (thanks) they are, indeed, two separate awards given their own separate paragraphs and criteria in CAPR 39-3.

As Group Commander, I am authorizing their separate ware by any MOWG Group II individuals who have been awarded them.

Dr. Dave

[Eclipse]

At a minimum you should check with NHQ.

It is clear these are the same awards, comparable in presentation  (not scope) to the EIB/CIB.

The CIB is just an EIB with Laurels.  Per Army regs the CIB takes precedence if you have both awards, however many
Army personnel wear the EIB instead because the actual training and proficiency for an EIB is considered by some to be
harder and more objective.

I would say the same for the DR ribbon - a plain ribbon means you completed a bunch of training and 5 missions or the equivalent, a DR w/ V simply means you showed up to Presidential DA and got your name on a roster for one sortie period.

But in the end you have to pick one or the other.

(those that have the DR/V, don't get your shorts in a bunch about the example, I know for most including myself, its a lot more than that)

[MIKE]

As noted above (thanks) they are, indeed, two separate awards given their own separate paragraphs and criteria in CAPR 39-3.

As Group Commander, I am authorizing their separate ware by any MOWG Group II individuals who have been awarded them.

I don't buy that logic.  CAPM 39-1 Tables 5-1. and 5-2. list "Disaster Relief Ribbon" not Disaster Relief Ribbon with "V" Device followed by Disaster Relief Ribbon.

[cnitas]

If they are seperate ribbons, which comes first in order of precedence?

The standard DR ribbon is listed first, and the 'DR ribbon with V device' is omitted from the order  of precedence charts.  You would think that a 'V' device would be higher, but the requirements of the standard ribbon are actually more difficult....hmmm

I personally believe it was an adminitrative error, to add the V device as a new lettered paragraph in the text.  It belongs in the 'F' lettered paragraph.

I will admit the wording is very strange for a ribbon device.  It does read as an entirely new award, and I have seen it worn that way.  The EIB/CIB is a good comparison.

[TankerT]

If attachments for additional activity were authorized, they would be indicated in the verbiage for the decoration.

Actually, if you notice, the regulation specifically states (as mentioned earlier by Chris in this thread) that paragraph 6 authorizes repetitive awards for both decorations and ribbons.

If you notice, there are only statements for awards that do not follow the paragraph 6 rules for additional awards/clasps.  (I.E. the NCSA Ribbon, the Cadet Competition Ribbons.... etc.)  Otherwise, there is nothing stating that you cannot earn the DR ribbon multiple times.  (And, since my wing just had it's second DR mission in a Presidential Declared area, I confirmed this interpretation with NHQ.  You can earn muliple clasps for the ribbon... as mentioned by paragraph 6...)

[TankerT]

As Group Commander, I am authorizing their separate ware by any MOWG Group II individuals who have been awarded them.

Dr. Dave

To do so, you would need to publish a supplement to CAPM 39-1... which requires National HQ approval.  I would be surprised if you would get it... but... it will be interesting to see if you do.  Let us know how that goes. 

/CAPR 39-3 does state to refer to CAPM 39-1 as to wear of ribbons.
//CAPM 39-1, in the order of precedence lists this as one award.

[Eclipse]

If you notice, there are only statements for awards that do not follow the paragraph 6 rules for additional awards/clasps.  (I.E. the NCSA Ribbon, the Cadet Competition Ribbons.... etc.)  Otherwise, there is nothing stating that you cannot earn the DR ribbon multiple times.  (And, since my wing just had it's second DR mission in a Presidential Declared area, I confirmed this interpretation with NHQ.  You can earn multiple clasps for the ribbon... as mentioned by paragraph 6...)

So NHQ is saying that you'd slide the V over and add a triangle for your second POTUS DR mission?

I'd like to see that in writing, that does not sound like the intent on this ribbon.

I also agree above on the need for NHQ approval for 39-1 supplements, and I'm not even sure that they can be written below the Wing level.  I if I were a Wing CC I would not want a few units in my Wing wearing something so radically different that it required a supplement, considering if it is that important its probably applicable to the whole Wing.

[TankerT]

I'd like to see that in writing, that does not sound like the intent on this ribbon.

From CAPR 39-3... (again)

6. Repetitive Awards:

b. Subsequent awards of the same decoration or
ribbon are denoted by the CAP bronze clasp, worn on the
ribbon of the original award. A CAP silver clasp is
equivalent to, and is worn in the place of, five bronze
claps. They are illustrated in Attachment 2.

[lordmonar]

And going by our USAF standards.....no matter how many times you earn an award with a "V" device you only wear one "V" and add OLC to it.

I have gotten the USAF Outstanding Unit Award with "V" device twice but only wear one "V".

[DrDave]

As Group Commander, I am authorizing their separate ware by any MOWG Group II individuals who have been awarded them.

Dr. Dave

To do so, you would need to publish a supplement to CAPM 39-1... which requires National HQ approval.  I would be surprised if you would get it... but... it will be interesting to see if you do.  Let us know how that goes. 

/CAPR 39-3 does state to refer to CAPM 39-1 as to wear of ribbons.
//CAPM 39-1, in the order of precedence lists this as one award.

Sorry, wasn't clear in my previous post.  Missouri Wing does, indeed, have a wing supplement in place for CAPR 39-3.

Thanks to all for the replies to my original question.  CAPtalk always comes through!

Dr. Dave

[TankerT]

And going by our USAF standards.....no matter how many times you earn an award with a "V" device you only wear one "V" and add OLC to it.

I have gotten the USAF Outstanding Unit Award with "V" device twice but only wear one "V".

It has nothing to do with the USAF standards.  It has to do with our regulation.  Our regulation states you add the triangular clasps.  Not another V.

[TankerT]

Sorry, wasn't clear in my previous post.  Missouri Wing does, indeed, have a wing supplement in place for CAPR 39-3.

Just remember though, wearing both the Ribbon with a V device, and one without, would require a supplement as CAPM 39-1, not to CAPR 39-3, as you are attempting to authorize or specify the wear of a uniform item.  CAPM 39-1 has an entire chapter devoted just to the wear of ribbons and awards.