Additional Awards of Disaster Ribbon with "V"

[Eclipse]

And going by our USAF standards.....no matter how many times you earn an award with a "V" device you only wear one "V" and add OLC to it.

I have gotten the USAF Outstanding Unit Award with "V" device twice but only wear one "V".

It has nothing to do with the USAF standards.  It has to do with our regulation.  Our regulation states you add the triangular clasps.  Not another V.

Maybe - in this case, the designator of the award itself is the V, not the ribbon.

I still don't see the multi-award clasp criteria applicable in the case of this decoration.

What would you do in the case of multiple SMV?'s 3 stars and a clasp(s) or even the national comm-comm, where the designator is the star, and in the case of that ribbon, you'd have no way of knowing how many of which award you got.

I still say in the case where the clasp is the award the clasp is only worn once and no triangles apply.

[lordmonar]

And going by our USAF standards.....no matter how many times you earn an award with a "V" device you only wear one "V" and add OLC to it.

I have gotten the USAF Outstanding Unit Award with "V" device twice but only wear one "V".

It has nothing to do with the USAF standards.  It has to do with our regulation.  Our regulation states you add the triangular clasps.  Not another V.

Yes...I agree....as does the USAF....which was my point.

[lordmonar]

It has nothing to do with the USAF standards.  It has to do with our regulation.  Our regulation states you add the triangular clasps.  Not another V.

Maybe - in this case, the designator of the award itself is the V, not the ribbon.

I still don't see the multi-award clasp criteria applicable in the case of this decoration.

What would you do in the case of multiple SMV?'s 3 stars and a clasp(s) or even the national comm-comm, where the designator is the star, and in the case of that ribbon, you'd have no way of knowing how many of which award you got.

I still say in the case where the clasp is the award the clasp is only worn once and no triangles apply.
[/quote]

Which is why those medals are poorly though out in the first place......If the award is a seprate it should have its own ribbon....and not a bunch of trash on it.

[TankerT]

I still don't see the multi-award clasp criteria applicable in the case of this decoration.

So, what is your regulatory basis for this?

It's in black and white, right in the regulation...

The National Commander's Commendation is a decoration.  Right?  (According to CAPR 39-3 and the ICL, it is...)

So is the Silver Medal of Valor, right?  (According to CAPR 39-3, it is...)

The Disaster Relief Ribbon with "V" device is a ribbon right?  (According to CAPR 39-3, it is...)

The reg states, (and it is easy to read... it's on page 3 on the right hand side, if you're having a hard time finding it...):

"Subsequent awards of the same decoration or ribbon are denoted by the CAP bronze clasp, worn on the ribbon of the original award."

Since the Disaster Relief Ribbon with "V" device does not state any special instructions in it's paragraph... which ribbons that have exceptions to the paragraph 6b rules do... why would it be an exception?

The regulations clearly classifies the DR Ribbon with V device as a "ribbon" and the regulation clearly states that when you earn a ribbon an additional time, you put a triangular clasp on it.  (And, those that are an exception, have their own rules clearly stated in their paragraphs in the regulation.)

The designator of the award may be a "V" but the regulation states (in paragraph 6b) that the designator for additional awards is a bronze triangular clasp.

[TankerT]

Which is why those medals are poorly though out in the first place......If the award is a seprate it should have its own ribbon....and not a bunch of trash on it.

I would agree they are poorly thought out.  But, anyone who has been to a National Board meeting has seen decisions on awards, or other topics made up on the fly with no real thought behind them.

Poorly thought out or not... it doesn't change what the designator for an additional awards is for the ribbon.

[Eclipse]

Isn't there a limit to the number of devices you can put on a ribbon? (i.e. three)

By no means is a rack builder regulatory, but the ones I use don't have any allowance for additional devices on these ribbons, SMV, DR, etc.

So that means either the reg belies the custom, or in this case the multi-attachment doesn't apply (lack of citation not withstanding).

[lordmonar]

IIRC it is four (it is 4 in the USAF).

[IceNine]

4 appears to be the correct number.

VG sells 4 bronze tri's as did bookstore etc.  And it all make sense when you add that the silver tri = 5 bronze.

[TankerT]

Isn't there a limit to the number of devices you can put on a ribbon? (i.e. three)

By no means is a rack builder regulatory, but the ones I use don't have any allowance for additional devices on these ribbons, SMV, DR, etc.

So that means either the reg belies the custom, or in this case the multi-attachment doesn't apply (lack of citation not withstanding).

Then, in those cases, the rack builder you use isn't programmed to handle additional awards.  It could be that due to the perceived lack of need, the time was not spent to add that functionality.

Just because you can't cite a regulation to back you up, you claim the reg is incorrect because you don't like what it actually says?  That makes no sense.  The reg states you can have a clasp if you earn the award more than once.  If you do, you get a clasp.  Why is that difficult to grasp?  

And yes, there is a maximum number of devices you can wear on a ribbon.  (It is four... and that is not a guess, or based on what you can buy.  It is clearly spelled out in the manual.)  There is also a provision about wearing multiple ribbons of the same type, if enough are earned, and there is no room for more attachments.  (You must have at least 3 attachments on the first ribbon.)

[TankerT]

Just in case anyone is curious.

The award of multiple Disaster Relief Ribbons with "V" device recently became an item of interest with my wing participating in our second DR mission for a Presidential Declared disaster in 1 year.

The other day I called the ever knowledgeable and friendly Ms. Parker at National, and she confirmed that paragraph 6b from CAPR 39-3 does apply to this ribbon.

If you don't want to take my word on this topic, or the regulation's word on it... maybe you'll take hers.  If you don't want to take her word on it... well.  Not much we can do for you on this topic then.

[IceNine]

Why didn't you just try that instead of all the flaming...

[TankerT]

Why didn't you just try that instead of all the flaming...

Multiple posts pointing out a regulation does not equate to flaming.

[MIKE]

OK, so some further clarification is still in order if multiple awards are to be authorized.

What color "V" device is to worn?  KB says bronze.  Yet bronze and silver are available.

How worn? Should the device be worn in the same manner as the prop on Find and SAR ribbons, or to the wearers right of other devices?

[ZigZag911]

Perhaps it's time for two separate ribbons?

Keep the present one for actual DR service....create one for training, call it 'disaster preparedness'.

Or have nothing for the training, only an award for DR service.

[Major Carrales]

Perhaps it's time for two separate ribbons?

Keep the present one for actual DR service....create one for training, call it 'disaster preparedness'.

Or have nothing for the training, only an award for DR service.

Very reasonable proposal.

[AlphaSigOU]

The training requirements for the DR ribbon stem from the days when it was known as the Civil Defense ribbon (with accompanying silver CD device).

Personally, I don't think the 'V' device is appropriate for this ribbon. I don't know why they discontinued the old silver CD device - perhaps they ran out of 'em? But I'm not one o' the PTB at NHQ, so I just salute and execute, like a good CAP officer.

[AlphaSigOU]

OK, so some further clarification is still in order if multiple awards are to be authorized.

What color "V" device is to worn?  KB says bronze.  Yet bronze and silver are available.

How worn? Should the device be worn in the same manner as the prop on Find and SAR ribbons, or to the wearers right of other devices?

Lukas Gaszewski's ribbon checker web site has the placement of the V device the same way as the prop device - place it in the center and balance out the number of additional clasps on the ribbon. CAPR 39-3 is silent in this regard for now. I hope the next rewrite of CAPM 39-1 and CAPR 39-3 has better clarification on the wear of ribbons and devices.

[MIKE]

If I rewrote it each award would list the authorized attachments and how worn, rather than the one separate paragraph which may or may not apply.

Wearers right is more conducive to using connected devices versus centered.

[Eclipse]

My Wing CV spoke to Suzy Parker this morning.

She indicated that the DR-V ribbon is considered a separate, distinct, decoration, and is worn separate from a "regular" DR ribbon awarded through the training / sortie route.

If you received the decoration both ways, you actually wear two DR ribbons - one plain and one with the "V".

She also indicated that in order to earn the DR-V, the Presidential Declaration must be made before CAP operations cease.
In other words, it has to be presidentially declared before we get there, or while we are there.

Situations where the area is declared Presidential after we leave do not qualify for the ribbon.

[Eclipse]

OK, the final word.

The new CAPR 39-3 has been posted for comment:
http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/R039_003_draft_A64427E39FD4F.pdf

Assuming this isn't changed post-comments....

"Disaster Relief Ribbon with "V" Device. The Disaster Relief Ribbon with a "V" device
may be awarded to any CAP member who participates in a disaster relief effort for a Presidential
declared disaster. Participation must be verified by the on-scene commander. Participation in any
Presidential declared disaster since 1990 qualifies. The Disaster Relieve Ribbon with "V" device
may be earned even if the member has not met the requirement of paragraph 21(f), above. A
maximum of one "V" device will be worn. Individuals participating in more than one Presidentially
declared disaster may add a bronze clasp to the ribbon with "V" device beginning on the left side of
the device."

One less thing to keep us up at night...