Paperless organization

[flyguy06]

I was thinkig about this the other day as I was taking my cadets down to the local university to do their OPSEC training. With everything going to computer based and internet based, I can see CAP turning into an organization for the priviledged and the underpriviledged will be left out.

Everyone does not have access to the internet and many people young and old do not know how to manipulate it. I talk to parents that did not know they had to go online to order uniforms and even thouigh they know they dont know how to do it. Then with the upcomming deal about cadets taking exams online, I fear many of my cadets wont do it. Many of them do not have email addreses. They use their parents.

I really see this as a problem that needs to be addressed. I realize that CAP wants to cut costs and go to a paprless organization, but that desnt work in all communities.

[jimmydeanno]

I really don't see it that way.  Every community has some sort of public internet access, whether it be available at the public library or some sort of public hot spots.  A lot of squadrons also have their own connections...

Although things are going to the web, NHQ still makes most things available to do via paper.

If the cadets don't know how to order their uniforms, the DCC or someone can order it for them - it takes all of about 30 seconds.

I'm not sure that if CAP goes completely paperless that it will be that much of an issue.  It may be a bit more difficult, but not anywhere near impossible for everyone to particpate.

[mynetdude]

Indeed its a problem, I have asked our cadets (out of curiosity) how often they use the computer for CAP self study and readings outside of squadron time and many of them either said A) they don't know how, B) they don't have a computer at home C) and if they do know how and don't have a computer at home, then they don't have enough time to use the library or school PC lab's computers for CAP work with enough homework they have.

Our squadron has 8 computers upstairs in a classroom, several downstairs in various places.  we have an average of 15-20 cadets on a given night, to have them all using the PC at the same time is JUST not going to happen unless we have a bigger facility or we redesign the classrom to accomodate more computers which I don't think the squadron is going to go for that anyhow.

As a personnel officer I have 2 other jobs I cannot do OPSEC training every month nor every week.  I have gotten 15 out of probably 30 active cadets OPSEC qualified and I have told the DCC she needs to find a cadet who can/will do routine OPSEC training for new cadets after April 1st.  I don't know how they expect me to have to do it all, I do not have a problem helping them do it as it is my job to make sure they know how to do it and that it gets done.

If we are truly going paperless then I guess all those bare tables the cadets are sitting at in the upstairs classroom shall have computers on them along with the computers being on the tables along the classroom walls.

[mynetdude]

I really don't see it that way.  Every community has some sort of public internet access, whether it be available at the public library or some sort of public hot spots.  A lot of squadrons also have their own connections...

Although things are going to the web, NHQ still makes most things available to do via paper.

If the cadets don't know how to order their uniforms, the DCC or someone can order it for them - it takes all of about 30 seconds.

I'm not sure that if CAP goes completely paperless that it will be that much of an issue.  It may be a bit more difficult, but not anywhere near impossible for everyone to particpate.

Sure there will always be a paper method of submitting reports/documents.  Infact paper is still required for personnel files.  For example: many wings will accept an CAPF 2a electronically with e/signature but you also have to place this stuff in the squadron files and personnel files so if we are truly going paperless I see a bit of a problem with this.

I don't mind the paper files, having a hard copy for total failure of the system is a good backup or if for some reason your squadron ends up getting cut off from the internet you still have a backup of most recent records (provided it is kept up to date).

But the fact of the matter is, we have several forms that can be generated electronically, filled out electronically, SENT electronically, printed anywhere it is, the next person can print it they can have hard copies all they want yet for inspection we have to maintain hard copies of these forms in our squadron form files.

It wasn't until recently that you could enter cadet modules/milestones, may mission/ES/Aircraft and vehicle data have to be entered online routinely as well so I'm not sure where the paper trail stops or begins because for much of what we do online there is still a paper trail needed.

[Pylon]

Each squadron is provided with a laptop, printer and an Earthlink dial up account.  For those members who cannot access the internet at home to carry out essential tasks, they can be done at the squadron at no cost to anybody other than CAP NHQ. 

While we don't need the dialup account at our squadron because we have high speed internet and wireless, we do routinely need to perform online tasks for our members who do not have access at home.  It's not as big of a deal as it would seem.

[mynetdude]

Each squadron is provided with a laptop, printer and an Earthlink dial up account.  For those members who cannot access the internet at home to carry out essential tasks, they can be done at the squadron at no cost to anybody other than CAP NHQ. 

While we don't need the dialup account at our squadron because we have high speed internet and wireless, we do routinely need to perform online tasks for our members who do not have access at home.  It's not as big of a deal as it would seem.

Our squadron has high speed internet, thats why we have 25+ computers connected to our network regularly.  If you can't do it at home, you can come to the squadron and do it there.  So, why do you need to do it FOR other members? Can't they do it for themselves at your unit with high speed internet? Many of us are wearing 2-3-4-5 hats we got enough to do on our own...

Its like this... we have a guy who is eligible for his captain promotion, which has to go to wing but a CAPF 2a needs to be submitted BY the member handed to me as a personnel officer, I go to Eservices, push some buttons, turn around and fax/mail/email whatever to the PDO up at wing and wait for him to do his thing and he sends it back to me... I'm not going to do this UNLESS that member initiates the process and if he can't do it at home then he sure as heck can do it at the squadron and while I won't do it for him, I'll show him how simple painless and easy. And if you can't do that, you don't deserve your promotion IMHO, I don't HAVE the time luxury to run around doing everybody's CAPF 2a! 

BTW most senior members have access to our hangar, they are more than welcome to go there on their own or call me/email me when they want to do something and want some guidance and I'll be there (same with cadets, except they do not have free access to the hangar) but none bother so I don't. 

[NIN]

Each squadron is provided with a laptop, printer and an Earthlink dial up account.  For those members who cannot access the internet at home to carry out essential tasks, they can be done at the squadron at no cost to anybody other than CAP NHQ. 

While we don't need the dialup account at our squadron because we have high speed internet and wireless, we do routinely need to perform online tasks for our members who do not have access at home.  It's not as big of a deal as it would seem.

Earthlink account does my unit no good. No phone connections available to us.

I need a darn Edge or similar data card.

[Pylon]

If you can't do it at home, you can come to the squadron and do it there.  So, why do you need to do it FOR other members? Can't they do it for themselves at your unit with high speed internet? Many of us are wearing 2-3-4-5 hats we got enough to do on our own...

Perhaps I worded it poorly. We rarely do it for the member; you're more than right - I already wear enough hats.  Take for example the CAPT 116/117, OPSEC, CPPT Pre-Test, etc...  We don't obviously do it for members without computers at home, but I will provide them access at the squadron and get them situated.

[flyguy06]

I really don't see it that way.  Every community has some sort of public internet access, whether it be available at the public library or some sort of public hot spots.  A lot of squadrons also have their own connections...

Although things are going to the web, NHQ still makes most things available to do via paper.

If the cadets don't know how to order their uniforms, the DCC or someone can order it for them - it takes all of about 30 seconds.

I'm not sure that if CAP goes completely paperless that it will be that much of an issue.  It may be a bit more difficult, but not anywhere near impossible for everyone to particpate.

Ok, so now in addition to my duties as DCC, I have to order uniforms. It takes 30 seconds per cadet. I have 36 cadets. Keep in mind I do have a full time job outside of CAP.

Also, you talk about public libraries. That means the cadet and parent who already has a busy schedule has to take time to go to the library to do this. Lets see. Single parent who works all day has to pick kids up from school(more then the one cadet), fix dinner, get kids ready for bed, getherself ready for bed, get up early to take kids to school, go to work. When does she have time to go to the library?

Again, dont assume everyones situation is like yours.

[flyguy06]

Each squadron is provided with a laptop, printer and an Earthlink dial up account.  For those members who cannot access the internet at home to carry out essential tasks, they can be done at the squadron at no cost to anybody other than CAP NHQ. 

While we don't need the dialup account at our squadron because we have high speed internet and wireless, we do routinely need to perform online tasks for our members who do not have access at home.  It's not as big of a deal as it would seem.

No, each Commander is issued a laptop. He doesnt bring it to meetings, and he has never mentioned anything about a printer. But even he did have that and brought it tomeetings, could you imagine 36 cadets waiting in line to get an eservices account, then register, then do OPSEC withthe test. That would take two full meeting nights.

Plus in order to get a e-services acount you need a SSN. A lot of parents dont like giving out their kids SSN.

[mynetdude]

If you can't do it at home, you can come to the squadron and do it there.  So, why do you need to do it FOR other members? Can't they do it for themselves at your unit with high speed internet? Many of us are wearing 2-3-4-5 hats we got enough to do on our own...

Perhaps I worded it poorly. We rarely do it for the member; you're more than right - I already wear enough hats.  Take for example the CAPT 116/117, OPSEC, CPPT Pre-Test, etc...  We don't obviously do it for members without computers at home, but I will provide them access at the squadron and get them situated.

Yeah sorry can't see behind the words, but I know what you mean and I agree with you.

Our squadron routinely makes PCs available for members to use other than meeting nights, cadets included provided there is a senior member available.  None have bothered to take advantage of that though.

[mynetdude]

Each squadron is provided with a laptop, printer and an Earthlink dial up account.  For those members who cannot access the internet at home to carry out essential tasks, they can be done at the squadron at no cost to anybody other than CAP NHQ. 

While we don't need the dialup account at our squadron because we have high speed internet and wireless, we do routinely need to perform online tasks for our members who do not have access at home.  It's not as big of a deal as it would seem.

No, each Commander is issued a laptop. He doesnt bring it to meetings, and he has never mentioned anything about a printer. But even he did have that and brought it tomeetings, could you imagine 36 cadets waiting in line to get an eservices account, then register, then do OPSEC withthe test. That would take two full meeting nights.

Plus in order to get a e-services acount you need a SSN. A lot of parents dont like giving out their kids SSN.

I'm not sure if each commander gets issued a laptop is even true, I know each SQD does though.

parents giving out their kids SSN doesn't hold much water these days, if their kid (or they want their kids) to get involved in federally funded programs they HAVE to give their SSNs its not an option (even public school, medical, whatever).  Although I know some places that GIVE the option to use an SSN (still) and that is my community college, you can opt to not use your SSN but when you want funding or tax benefits, and so on then the game is on... you need your SSN.

[jimmydeanno]

Again, dont assume everyones situation is like yours.

I'm not, that's why there are multiple methods being said here.  Library, Friend's house, squadron access, home access, public wi-fi, at school, etc.  

So I suppose that if a cadet was homeless, had no friends, lived in an area that didn't have a library, parent was unwilling/unable to bring them somewhere, was in a squadron that didn't have access and didn't attend school then they wouldn't be able to participate.  But neither would the cadet who's family moved to Uganda and didn't have electricity but still wanted to participate.

As for the uniform thing, you might have 36 cadets (we have almost 50 now and I input their uniforms and a job too) but all 36 didn't show up at the same time.  You probably have a maximum of 2 per month - if that, it's not as big a deal as your making out to be.  If you really don't have one minute per month, delegate it to your supply guy to measure the cadets that can't order it themselves, then it's only 15 seconds for you to approve them.

[mynetdude]

I realize cadets are children they can't be expected to do everything, but if they really want to excel in their CP why the heck don't they do what the have to do (although I am sure there are SOME that do) to get access to a PC?  The chief complaint I hear from the DCC is... "we don't have time to do all the activities a cadet needs to do" "we need more separate classrooms to do testing and lectures at the same time"

basically I'm left with either once every other month that the computers are usable by cadets in the cadet classroom because they are not having a lecture and when they are computers can't be used... something is wrong with that picture.

[Camas]

We have a guy who is eligible for his captain promotion, which has to go to wing but a CAPF 2a needs to be submitted BY the member handed to me as a personnel officer.

If the member is eligible for a duty promotion, that is, he's doing it through time-in-grade, professional development and the whole nine yards, then a CAPF2 (not a 2a) isn't required.  This can be done through e-services under a restricted permission called "Membership - Duty Promotions"  You're listed as a squadron WSA therefore you can assign this permission to yourself and, as a squadron personnel officer, you should do exactly that.  If, on the other hand, it's a promotion through mission skills, professional appointment and so on then, yes, a CAPF2 must be prepared.  It can be done using e-signatures; simply fill it out then pass it on your commander.  He then forwards it to wing to the wing personnel officer where it will go up to the awards and promotion committee.  This is for captain or higher.  For lieutenants, the commander can sign and forward it directly to National; don't send the CAPF2 to wing as they don't need it.  Not in your wing anyway.

I'm not going to do this UNLESS that member initiates the process and if he can't do it at home then he sure as heck can do it at the squadron and while I won't do it for him, I'll show him how simple painless and easy. And if you can't do that, you don't deserve your promotion IMHO, I don't HAVE the time luxury to run around doing everybody's CAPF 2a!

The member isn't responsible for submitting the request (RE: CAPR 35-5 Para 8b).

[mynetdude]

We have a guy who is eligible for his captain promotion, which has to go to wing but a CAPF 2a needs to be submitted BY the member handed to me as a personnel officer.

If the member is eligible for a duty promotion, that is, he's doing it through time-in-grade, professional development and the whole nine yards, then a CAPF2 (not a 2a) isn't required.  This can be done through e-services under a restricted permission called "Membership - Duty Promotions"  You're listed as a squadron WSA therefore you can assign this permission to yourself and, as a squadron personnel officer, you should do exactly that.  If, on the other hand, it's a promotion through mission skills, professional appointment and so on then, yes, a CAPF2 must be prepared.  It can be done using e-signatures; simply fill it out then pass it on your commander.  He then forwards it to wing to the wing personnel officer where it will go up to the awards and promotion committee.  This is for captain or higher.  For lieutenants, the commander can sign and forward it directly to National; don't send the CAPF2 to wing as they don't need it.  Not in your wing anyway.

I'm not going to do this UNLESS that member initiates the process and if he can't do it at home then he sure as heck can do it at the squadron and while I won't do it for him, I'll show him how simple painless and easy. And if you can't do that, you don't deserve your promotion IMHO, I don't HAVE the time luxury to run around doing everybody's CAPF 2a!

The member isn't responsible for submitting the request (RE: CAPR 35-5 Para 8b).

I should have worded it more clearly: the member is responsible to "initiate" the request and pass that request TO me otherwise A) I won't know he is eligible for promotions B) if he really wants to be promoted I think he ought to?

You are right, the member is not responsible to do the actual request/send it up the COC (Chain of Command).

BTW my bad (CAPF2 not 2a, 2a is awards stuff) F2 is promotions and duty assignments.

For captains, he still has to get wing's signature in addition to me pressing a bunch of buttons on EServices. All I am saying is the member needs to fill out a F2 with his information/request and pass it to me nothing more nothing less. 

[Flying Pig]

I really don't see it that way.  Every community has some sort of public internet access, whether it be available at the public library or some sort of public hot spots.  A lot of squadrons also have their own connections...

Although things are going to the web, NHQ still makes most things available to do via paper.

If the cadets don't know how to order their uniforms, the DCC or someone can order it for them - it takes all of about 30 seconds.

I'm not sure that if CAP goes completely paperless that it will be that much of an issue.  It may be a bit more difficult, but not anywhere near impossible for everyone to particpate.

Ok, so now in addition to my duties as DCC, I have to order uniforms. It takes 30 seconds per cadet. I have 36 cadets. Keep in mind I do have a full time job outside of CAP.

Also, you talk about public libraries. That means the cadet and parent who already has a busy schedule has to take time to go to the library to do this. Lets see. Single parent who works all day has to pick kids up from school(more then the one cadet), fix dinner, get kids ready for bed, getherself ready for bed, get up early to take kids to school, go to work. When does she have time to go to the library?

Again, dont assume everyones situation is like yours.

So everyone pile into a van one meeting night per month and head to the library for "E-services night".  We have little to NO control over someone's family life, but the fact is that it still has to get done.

[Pylon]

I should have worded it more clearly: the member is responsible to "initiate" the request and pass that request TO me otherwise A) I won't know he is eligible for promotions B) if he really wants to be promoted I think he ought to?

Off-topic, but I disagree.  Personnel staff should know what senior members need for their next promotion and in conjunction with the PD staff, encourage them to complete requirements for the subsequent level.  Squadron staff should also be well aware when a member becomes eligible for promotion. 

For captains, he still has to get wing's signature in addition to me pressing a bunch of buttons on EServices. All I am saying is the member needs to fill out a F2 with his information/request and pass it to me nothing more nothing less. 

No CAPF 2 necessary at any point in the process for a duty performance promotion.  Personnel or Commander request the promotion to Captain in E-Services.  Squadron Commander approves and it goes to the Group Commander's E-Services account for approval.  Group CC signs off, and it pops up in the Wing Commander's approval list.  When approved, the member is instantly changed to "Capt" in E-Services and a new membership card is triggered.  A print out of the E-Services record showing the new grade is sufficient proof for personnel records. Record the date of grade on the CAPF 45.  Voila. 

Ok, so now in addition to my duties as DCC, I have to order uniforms. It takes 30 seconds per cadet. I have 36 cadets. Keep in mind I do have a full time job outside of CAP.

As DCC, you used to have to review and sign the FCU chit on the CAPF 15 before sending it in.  Currently on E-Services you still need to login and approve FCU requests from cadets.  I don't see what the difference is?  As DCC, you are steward of the FCUs, it's a duty and we deal with it.

No, each Commander is issued a laptop. He doesnt bring it to meetings, and he has never mentioned anything about a printer.

Your commander was not issued a laptop.  Your squadron was.  Your commander may be taking care of the laptop, but it is for use of the squadron; it's not meant to be a personal gift to commanders to simply keep at home.   Your commander really ought to be bringing it to meetings.  If your squadron doesn't think they need it, then return it to wing and let another squadron who needs a second laptop have that opportunity.

But even he did have that and brought it tomeetings, could you imagine 36 cadets waiting in line to get an eservices account, then register, then do OPSEC withthe test. That would take two full meeting nights.

So you don't do everyone's OPSEC on the same night.  Would you let 36 cadets use the bathroom at the same time?  I think with the leaders that you're mentoring and guiding, that the cadet leaders could come up with a workable plan to get everybody the minimum necessary time on the laptop.  I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill here.  Nobody said managing a Civil Air Patrol squadron was supposed to be easy, that there wouldn't be logitical or administrative nightmares sometimes, or that everything would be setup, figured out and provided for you.

There are certain expectations that running a CAP squadron will require a minimum level of effort, creative thinking and yes, money.  How you obtain those resources is up to you.

Plus in order to get a e-services acount you need a SSN. A lot of parents dont like giving out their kids SSN.

A lot of parents don't like paying for membership dues, uniform items, or activities fees.  But guess what?  If they don't, their child can't participate in the program to the fullest.  Makes sense, right?

Also, you talk about public libraries. That means the cadet and parent who already has a busy schedule has to take time to go to the library to do this. Lets see. Single parent who works all day has to pick kids up from school(more then the one cadet), fix dinner, get kids ready for bed, getherself ready for bed, get up early to take kids to school, go to work. When does she have time to go to the library?

It would seem to me that this family then would not have the time to get their child to CAP meetings, functions and special activities either.  If their life schedules were indeed that packed, they may not be good candidates for the Cadet Program at that time.

As was mentioned above, there are dozens of options.  Libraries, access at the squadron meetings, friends' homes, school, cafes, and more.  An average cadet does not need to be on the computer even once a month to participate in CAP.  They need to be on it about 4 or 5 times total, really.  OPSEC, FCU, CAPT 116/117, CPPT if they turn 18.  I think they can figure it out, if we're instructing enterprising leaders.

[bosshawk]

Folks: I realize that most of the posters here are young and work with cadets.  I think that you have a good handle on what they need and, in some cases, how to solve the problem.

Turn your attention briefly to the seniors(or officers as some like to call us).  We were not born to computers, we didn't likely even see a computer until we passed 50 yrs of age, we have never had any training in the blasted things and they befuddle us.  Now, you expect us to use the strange things to do classes and tests?  Some of our older folks do not have computers and will never have one.  Those who do usually fall into a couple of groups: they have taken on the technology and can use it: they have a computer in their house, but only the wife or adult children ever use it;  they check their email once a week or maybe once a month, but that is the sum total of their usage of a computer.

I happen to be able to do email(as some of you can attest) and I can usually get into eServices(with some difficulty), but that pretty much denotes my knowledge and ability.  If I have to do something more complex, I go to some of my younger, more computer-literate friends and try to get stuff done.

Please note that some of us older folks live quite a distance from a library or a Squadron, so just running down to do something on a machine that we are strangers with isn't a real solution.

OK: I have run on long enough on a subject that probably won't be solved anytime soon.  I have been in CAP 15 yrs and have heard this mantra about going paperless for all of that time.  I won't hold my breath.

[mynetdude]

Oh yeah I wished we had cadet leaders who could help the senior officers figure things out.  I'm not saying that the cadet leaders have to take sole responsibility, but IIRC according to the SUI there is a part about CP that cadets need to be involved in planning cadet activities (I would ASSUME mundane activities such as OPSEC, 116, CPPT and so on, not JUST parades and squadron volunteer activites).

But nope, none of our cadets are able to even think about that, so the DCC and her staff and the rest of the squadron staff are still trying to figure it out which is why the squadron is divided right now between CP and senior programs. It was divided (somewhat still is) as far as ES goes, but cadets are not required to be part of ES as their primary goal is CP first.

Like I said before, I do not mind helping the cadets I cannot dedicate one day a month to them to help them with it I would do it on a rotational quarterly schedule with a check in review to make sure things are going ok and to help other cadets be aware of other changes then things could get easier... they are not going to do that unless they can get EServices under their belts.

And its true, senior members are NOT alone in this... at least for the older folks anyway.  I am happy to help if they ask for it.  My squadron commander is lucky he knows enough to do more than eservices/email he can do internet and PDF files.  The advisor to the commander only does email/internet and maybe IMU though he'd prefer someone else do the IMU (like me) but he has done it and he does ok despite his difficulties he makes a mountain of he doesn't do bad at all he does enough to get him through it.

but anyway... thats that.