Paperless organization

[flyguy06]

We have no cadet leaders. They are all Airmen. And have only been in the program a few months. I am basically the cadet leader. Some of our cadets are in a school programwhich is how they get to participate. But thats a whole different story.

[Pylon]

We have no cadet leaders. They are all Airmen. And have only been in the program a few months. I am basically the cadet leader. Some of our cadets are in a school programwhich is how they get to participate. But thats a whole different story.

I highly, highly recommend reading completely through the new CAPP 52-15  It has great tips for seniors in bottom-heavy cadet squadrons.  I also can't stress enough the importance and benefit you'd derive from taking a TLC in your position; I'd place it above priority for any other PD course you might take next, if you can find one near you.

Your airmen can take on responsibilities.  It's a willingness of the senior members to give them some of those duties, and train them properly, that can be the barrier.

Again, as I said before, nobody said administrating and running a CAP squadron would be easy or set up for you.  It can often be very, very difficult.  But that is our challenge to overcome, and our challenge to share with our cadet leaders.  As a principle of our cadet program, we do not rely on crutches and complaints.

Oh yeah I wished we had cadet leaders who could help the senior officers figure things out.  I'm not saying that the cadet leaders have to take sole responsibility, but IIRC according to the SUI there is a part about CP that cadets need to be involved in planning cadet activities (I would ASSUME mundane activities such as OPSEC, 116, CPPT and so on, not JUST parades and squadron volunteer activites).

The Deputy Commander for Cadets, Leadership Officer and Squadron Activities Officer would work with the Cadet Commander to determine the level of cadet involvement in planning and execution of each activity.  If you feel cadets can take on a greater role, speak with the Deputy Commander for Cadets.

But nope, none of our cadets are able to even think about that, so the DCC and her staff and the rest of the squadron staff are still trying to figure it out which is why the squadron is divided right now between CP and senior programs. It was divided (somewhat still is) as far as ES goes, but cadets are not required to be part of ES as their primary goal is CP first.

Your statement makes no sense; sorry.  Our cadet program is entirely separate from the ES/Senior Member side.  That doesn't mean that our cadets don't plan their own training activities, or participate in the ES activities, or anything.  The split composite squadron, in fact, is not an excuse for any deficiency at all.  Ever.

Like I said before, I do not mind helping the cadets I cannot dedicate one day a month to them to help them with it I would do it on a rotational quarterly schedule with a check in review to make sure things are going ok and to help other cadets be aware of other changes then things could get easier... they are not going to do that unless they can get EServices under their belts.

I feel bad for your cadets.  I have a Personnel Officer for Cadets, because of that reason.  My regular Personnel Officer refuses to do much for cadet records.  If you're familiar at all with the Cadet Program, you'd realize that maintaining weekly records is vital to the CP.   Attendance Records, CPFT scores, examination/testing scores, drill test results, promotions, community service/recruiting recording, moral leadership participation, and ad infinitum are all important to tracking each of my cadets' personnel records.  What does that mean?  My Personnel Officer needs to be there most every night.  As DCC, I may sign promotions and affirm what's been tracked in SIMS, but I can't act as Personnel Officer and record the myriad of things which must be tracked for the squadron to meet the regulations.  It's too bad you don't help out your Cadet Program.  Perhaps someday a fellow member could train you on that.

And its true, senior members are NOT alone in this... at least for the older folks anyway.  I am happy to help if they ask for it.  My squadron commander is lucky he knows enough to do more than eservices/email he can do internet and PDF files.  The advisor to the commander only does email/internet and maybe IMU though he'd prefer someone else do the IMU (like me) but he has done it and he does ok despite his difficulties he makes a mountain of he doesn't do bad at all he does enough to get him through it.

but anyway... thats that.

Uhm... Didn't understand any of that last paragraph.  Learn to use computers for what's needed, like you learn how to perform any other duty in Civil Air Patrol, or instead find a duty which suits you better.  Cheers...

[mynetdude]

We have no cadet leaders. They are all Airmen. And have only been in the program a few months. I am basically the cadet leader. Some of our cadets are in a school programwhich is how they get to participate. But thats a whole different story.

I highly, highly recommend reading completely through the new CAPP 52-15  It has great tips for seniors in bottom-heavy cadet squadrons.  I also can't stress enough the importance and benefit you'd derive from taking a TLC in your position; I'd place it above priority for any other PD course you might take next, if you can find one near you.

Your airmen can take on responsibilities.  It's a willingness of the senior members to give them some of those duties, and train them properly, that can be the barrier.

Again, as I said before, nobody said administrating and running a CAP squadron would be easy or set up for you.  It can often be very, very difficult.  But that is our challenge to overcome, and our challenge to share with our cadet leaders.  As a principle of our cadet program, we do not rely on crutches and complaints.

Oh yeah I wished we had cadet leaders who could help the senior officers figure things out.  I'm not saying that the cadet leaders have to take sole responsibility, but IIRC according to the SUI there is a part about CP that cadets need to be involved in planning cadet activities (I would ASSUME mundane activities such as OPSEC, 116, CPPT and so on, not JUST parades and squadron volunteer activites).

The Deputy Commander for Cadets, Leadership Officer and Squadron Activities Officer would work with the Cadet Commander to determine the level of cadet involvement in planning and execution of each activity.  If you feel cadets can take on a greater role, speak with the Deputy Commander for Cadets.

But nope, none of our cadets are able to even think about that, so the DCC and her staff and the rest of the squadron staff are still trying to figure it out which is why the squadron is divided right now between CP and senior programs. It was divided (somewhat still is) as far as ES goes, but cadets are not required to be part of ES as their primary goal is CP first.

Your statement makes no sense; sorry.  Our cadet program is entirely separate from the ES/Senior Member side.  That doesn't mean that our cadets don't plan their own training activities, or participate in the ES activities, or anything.  The split composite squadron, in fact, is not an excuse for any deficiency at all.  Ever.

Like I said before, I do not mind helping the cadets I cannot dedicate one day a month to them to help them with it I would do it on a rotational quarterly schedule with a check in review to make sure things are going ok and to help other cadets be aware of other changes then things could get easier... they are not going to do that unless they can get EServices under their belts.

I feel bad for your cadets.  I have a Personnel Officer for Cadets, because of that reason.  My regular Personnel Officer refuses to do much for cadet records.  If you're familiar at all with the Cadet Program, you'd realize that maintaining weekly records is vital to the CP.   Attendance Records, CPFT scores, examination/testing scores, drill test results, promotions, community service/recruiting recording, moral leadership participation, and ad infinitum are all important to tracking each of my cadets' personnel records.  What does that mean?  My Personnel Officer needs to be there most every night.  As DCC, I may sign promotions and affirm what's been tracked in SIMS, but I can't act as Personnel Officer and record the myriad of things which must be tracked for the squadron to meet the regulations.  It's too bad you don't help out your Cadet Program.  Perhaps someday a fellow member could train you on that.

And its true, senior members are NOT alone in this... at least for the older folks anyway.  I am happy to help if they ask for it.  My squadron commander is lucky he knows enough to do more than eservices/email he can do internet and PDF files.  The advisor to the commander only does email/internet and maybe IMU though he'd prefer someone else do the IMU (like me) but he has done it and he does ok despite his difficulties he makes a mountain of he doesn't do bad at all he does enough to get him through it.

but anyway... thats that.

Uhm... Didn't understand any of that last paragraph.  Learn to use computers for what's needed, like you learn how to perform any other duty in Civil Air Patrol, or instead find a duty which suits you better.  Cheers...

I'm not going to try to break up the quotes so I'll reply in order.

First, I have no idea what the cadets are capable of, in my opinion I think they are capable of more. The DCC does not, problem solved I am not in charge end of story moving on.

Do I want to help the CP? Yes, and I have and do on occassion, I am not on the refusal bandwagon.  Can I help the CP, that depends on what is involved in addition to my current duties which have higher priority.  The DCC does the personnel work or has cadet sponsors help out with that stuff.

I apologize if I don't make any sense, I try my thoughts have to be more constructed as I type them (hence my many ways of editing).  I don't disagree that CP and senior programs are separate, they both have different requirements that does not mean a "composite" squadron needs to be "divided" as in seniors cannot function with cadets very well atm even though both programs run concurrently on the same night the cadets and seniors start and end the meeting together and all that only takes 45 minutes total the rest of the time the seniors/cadets are set apart.

I agree squadron management is NOT easy for those wearing multiple hats they will know this first hand.

Getting cadets to be somewhat self sufficient WOULD be better (same for the senior members), it isn't always possible and that is understandable and one would need take that into consideration and come up with a compromise that is beneficial in the long run for those who can and can't in the end they move along a bit smoother and help the clock work keep going smoothly in the squadron (sure its not perfect, and there will be kinks in the system here and there) but things can move down the path sooner is all I am saying.

So with all the resources we have, they need to be using it a bit more often that is all I ask.  I don't expect them to use it 100% of the time, and right now they will only use it IF they have to and someone is telling them they have to (OPSEC, CPPT, CAPT116, etc)

[SarDragon]

Plus in order to get a e-services acount you need a SSN. A lot of parents dont like giving out their kids SSN.

NHQ already has the SSAN from the membership app. They just use it for verification when starting the account. It is never used on the account after that.

[ZigZag911]

Senior citizens (civilians, not "senior members"!) quite commonly learn to use computer applications in their 70s & 80s.

Most of the 'cadet airmen' you folks have mentioned are more computer literate by far than the average CAP officer! Put them in front of the machine, point them at the right web site, and get out of the way! (But do look over their shoulders from time to time to monitor their work....keeps them on their toes!) Also keeps you out of hot water!)

Computers are not going away; they are virtually a necessity today in administering a large organization....given that each squadron and group has at minimum a laptop, printer, and dialup account, perhaps we need to start seeing this as an opportunity for personnel who might otherwise not be able to learn about this world of information technology, rather than viewing it as an obstacle.

[mynetdude]

Senior citizens (civilians, not "senior members"!) quite commonly learn to use computer applications in their 70s & 80s.

Most of the 'cadet airmen' you folks have mentioned are more computer literate by far than the average CAP officer! Put them in front of the machine, point them at the right web site, and get out of the way! (But do look over their shoulders from time to time to monitor their work....keeps them on their toes!) Also keeps you out of hot water!)

Computers are not going away; they are virtually a necessity today in administering a large organization....given that each squadron and group has at minimum a laptop, printer, and dialup account, perhaps we need to start seeing this as an opportunity for personnel who might otherwise not be able to learn about this world of information technology, rather than viewing it as an obstacle.

Well said!   Yes we have some senior citizens/members 70+ who actually do quite fine on a computer, sure they aren't as quick or geeky as those who are 10-40 years old but so what! If they can do it, let them do it!

I like computers as much as I hate the results sometimes. I will embrace computers, they facinate me . There IS a solution to solve cadet issues with going to bad websites, it isn't 100% foolproof and requires yet MORE maintenance and work but I think it is WORTH it especially if it is free.

www.opendns.org if you have a large network like our squadron THIS site will benefit you a lot! I have also seen hardware apperatus that do similar white/blacklisting of websites (almost as if it is a firewall in itself, but a dedicated hardware that does just this sort of stuff) it isn't cheap for the hardware but there are corporations that use it (and schools I am sure).

OpenDNS is a nice way to do it, you can manage multiple IPs too.  I will be using this for my squadron eventually.

[davedove]

Because we have many "seasoned" members, it will definitely take some time to go paperless (if we ever get there completely), as well as have a big learning curve for some members, but we are in the 21st century.  It's time folks learned to use the computer.  They have been pretty widespread for about twenty years now and the internet has been going strong for well over a decade.

So many of the actions we do can be accomplished so much quicker by using internet applications and email.  Considering our part-time nature, sometimes email is the only way to contact someone with anyh timeliness.

Now, as far as going paperless, the Army has been going paperless for about twenty years now and they are nowhere near it yet, so I don't think you have too much to worry about too soon.

Oh, by the way, somone mentioned that you have to have paper files for Personnel.  I'm in Personnel and I don't see any place where the files HAVE to be paper.  It just says files and describes the files that have to be maintained.  There is nowhere that says it can't be electronic files, except for only a few forms.

[flyguy06]

Because we have many "seasoned" members, it will definitely take some time to go paperless (if we ever get there completely), as well as have a big learning curve for some members, but we are in the 21st century.  It's time folks learned to use the computer.  They have been pretty widespread for about twenty years now and the internet has been going strong for well over a decade.

So many of the actions we do can be accomplished so much quicker by using internet applications and email.  Considering our part-time nature, sometimes email is the only way to contact someone with anyh timeliness.

Now, as far as going paperless, the Army has been going paperless for about twenty years now and they are nowhere near it yet, so I don't think you have too much to worry about too soon.

Oh, by the way, somone mentioned that you have to have paper files for Personnel.  I'm in Personnel and I don't see any place where the files HAVE to be paper.  It just says files and describes the files that have to be maintained.  There is nowhere that says it can't be electronic files, except for only a few forms.

Again, this type of attitude is going to make CAP an elitest organization. He assumes that everyone can afford a computer. Thats not the case. He assumes everyone knows how to use the internet. Thats not always the casse. We will turn away good people that want to volunteer and we will trun away young people that can benefit from what CAP has to offer.

[Pylon]

Again, this type of attitude is going to make CAP an elitest organization. He assumes that everyone can afford a computer. Thats not the case. He assumes everyone knows how to use the internet. Thats not always the casse. We will turn away good people that want to volunteer and we will trun away young people that can benefit from what CAP has to offer.

It's not an elitist attitude, at all.  It's realistic.   Will we turn away volunteers because they don't have a computer (for whatever reason)?  Nope.  But they won't be able to participate at the fullest levels of the organization; that's just a fact of life and it goes along with everything else Civil Air Patrol does.

Some volunteers won't be able to afford the gear necessary to become a Ground Team member.  It doesn't mean that we turn them away, but they simply can't participate in Civil Air Patrol to its fullest.    This isn't elitist, but it is a fact of Civil Air Patrol that in order to participate in CAP fully, you'll need some funds and you'll need certain resources.  Not everybody can do that, but they still can serve Civil Air Patrol in other capacities.   The member who doesn't know how to use or can't afford a computer can still perform a number of functions, just in the same way as the member who can't afford Ground Team gear or isn't capable of driving a CAP vehicle or flying a CAP plane.

So to recap, just so we're crystal clear:  Will we turn away members because of lack of certain skills or personal funds?  Nope.  But doing a lot of things in Civil Air Patrol requires money or certain skill sets and CAP can't provide for everyone for free.

[mynetdude]

Because we have many "seasoned" members, it will definitely take some time to go paperless (if we ever get there completely), as well as have a big learning curve for some members, but we are in the 21st century.  It's time folks learned to use the computer.  They have been pretty widespread for about twenty years now and the internet has been going strong for well over a decade.

So many of the actions we do can be accomplished so much quicker by using internet applications and email.  Considering our part-time nature, sometimes email is the only way to contact someone with anyh timeliness.

Now, as far as going paperless, the Army has been going paperless for about twenty years now and they are nowhere near it yet, so I don't think you have too much to worry about too soon.

Oh, by the way, somone mentioned that you have to have paper files for Personnel.  I'm in Personnel and I don't see any place where the files HAVE to be paper.  It just says files and describes the files that have to be maintained.  There is nowhere that says it can't be electronic files, except for only a few forms.

I you are right, it doesn't say it has to be paper, it will ASSUME it is because the manual was written on paper was it not? So I would assume it was written for paper in mind, that being said there will be references that some forms shall be "typed" and you can accomplish this by using electronic forms no problem!

However, it would be foolish to not have a paper personnel file, you don't know when one day you will not have electricity for a week and the only thing you will be able to rely on is those personnel paper files.  And AFAIK the SUI will look for those paper files at least here in ORWG.

[mynetdude]

Because we have many "seasoned" members, it will definitely take some time to go paperless (if we ever get there completely), as well as have a big learning curve for some members, but we are in the 21st century.  It's time folks learned to use the computer.  They have been pretty widespread for about twenty years now and the internet has been going strong for well over a decade.

So many of the actions we do can be accomplished so much quicker by using internet applications and email.  Considering our part-time nature, sometimes email is the only way to contact someone with anyh timeliness.

Now, as far as going paperless, the Army has been going paperless for about twenty years now and they are nowhere near it yet, so I don't think you have too much to worry about too soon.

Oh, by the way, somone mentioned that you have to have paper files for Personnel.  I'm in Personnel and I don't see any place where the files HAVE to be paper.  It just says files and describes the files that have to be maintained.  There is nowhere that says it can't be electronic files, except for only a few forms.

Again, this type of attitude is going to make CAP an elitest organization. He assumes that everyone can afford a computer. Thats not the case. He assumes everyone knows how to use the internet. Thats not always the casse. We will turn away good people that want to volunteer and we will trun away young people that can benefit from what CAP has to offer.

Granted I agree, you can buy a cheap modern computer for $500.00, that is a lot of money for a lot of people especially if they are on the federal/state low income poverty line.  I know of parents who would shake their head at you if they had to spend $500.00 on a decent computer (that is at least it comes with windows XP, a DVDROM/burner, a 100GB HDD and at least a 2GHz CPU).

It isn't that hard to go get training on how to use a computer, go to the senior computer club (if you are a senior citizen) go to the college, get training from your fellow squadron IT guy.  If you are a cadet, take computer classes... it is YOUR future!  Heck, by the time I graduated high school 2 credits of computer classes were required for the graduating class of 1999 and on to even graduate.

Change is scary, can hurt, but you should do at least the minimum to embrace it you are not required to embrace it fully but at least some to do something about it.

[DNall]

This is not a new issue. It's been around for decades with ref to uniforms & annual dues. We do everything we can to mitigate, but it's not something we can get rid of. Look at ES. A GTL spend may spend hundreds in gas on an AFAM. Maybe they get it back if they do some paperwork & wait around a while. That doesn't cover gear or most trng. Pilots are ten times worse. Even with the recent advent of fuel cards, they still spend during AFAMs, and much much more to stay current.

Like I said, we do what we can to mitigate the effects. We send computers to units. If your unit is in this situation, then you need to make sure your Wg knows that & prioritizes you for computer issue. Most units also get mbrs to donate older systems & network them up. The cost of internet isn't insane. You should be able to get a cheaper mil/govt/non-profit rate from a provider. Maybe someone has an aircard or something at home that they can bring to mtgs. I know that's not a perfect solution, but it's the best we can do.

[davedove]

However, it would be foolish to not have a paper personnel file, you don't know when one day you will not have electricity for a week and the only thing you will be able to rely on is those personnel paper files.  And AFAIK the SUI will look for those paper files at least here in ORWG.

There's a lot of truth to that statement.  There has to be some way to access important records under less than ideal conditions.  And, one of our missions is disaster relief, when it is very possible that operations could be ongoing for some time without power.

i certainly don't want to sound elitist about this issue, but we do live in the computer age.  There are some people who don't have access to computers or the internet, so allowances will have to made for them.  But we can't hold up the development of CAP to accomodate them.

I'm viewing this issue with my experience of working for the Army for over twenty years.  Whenever some new equipment, procedure, or requirement is introduced, so often the first response of most is to immediately protest that the new things don't apply to them, instead of looking to how their organization could benefit from it.

I will grant that change is not always for the best, but we all do need to understand that change will happen.  It can't be stopped.