Wearing the ABU's

[mikeylikey]

Officers are never issued free uniforms (except for specific combat related items).

True, but items issued to cadets/officer candidates are free and may be kept after commissioning. 

Ummm no.  Sorry to inform you, but Cadets are given the option before they Commission to purchase those uniforms they wore through ROTC.  They are slightly less expensive then new ones, and I have no idea why you would want to keep the uniforms you may have been wearing for 4 years anyway.  In Army ROTC Cadets are allowed to keep their PT clothes whether they stay in the program or drop out or kicked out. Frankly we don't want them back    (the unit eats the cost of PT jacket and pants, but the shorts and Long and short sleeve shirts are written off).  A "freebie" if you will from Uncle Sam. 

However, Army Cadets are required to purchase the Dress Blues if they are going on Active Duty, along with a minimum of four sets of ACU's (maybe more depending on which courses you will be going to after you Commission).  Don't forget the beret, and a slew of other uniform items that are required of all officers.  even if you did keep your Class A's from your cadet days, you might get away with wearing the jacket after you sew the sleeve braid on, but you still have to sew the braid on the pants.  You might as well spend the small bit to just buy Officer pants to begin with.

[SSgt Rudin]

Someone will probably be mad that I am bringing this back up, however with all the comments about how hard it will be to get woodland BDU's I just can't resist pointing out that Tru Spec still makes 6 color desert BDU's (available here http://tinyurl.com/2khq4a ) which haven't been used since just after the first gulf war.

[Eagle400]

Someone will probably be mad that I am bringing this back up, however with all the comments about how hard it will be to get woodland BDU's I just can't resist pointing out that Tru Spec still makes 6 color desert BDU's (available here http://tinyurl.com/2khq4a ) which haven't been used since just after the first gulf war.

They are being used, just not by the U.S. military.  They are being worn by the new Iraqi military. 

I don't think the AF or DoD want CAP or any other organization tied to the military wearing the uniform of a foreign military power. 

[SSgt Rudin]

Someone will probably be mad that I am bringing this back up, however with all the comments about how hard it will be to get woodland BDU's I just can't resist pointing out that Tru Spec still makes 6 color desert BDU's (available here http://tinyurl.com/2khq4a ) which haven't been used since just after the first gulf war.

They are being used, just not by the U.S. military.  They are being worn by the new Iraqi military. 

I don't think the AF or DoD want CAP or any other organization tied to the military wearing the uniform of a foreign military power. 

I wasn't saying we should be wearing them, just pointing out that they still make them, so I don't think we have to worry about not being able to find Woodland BSU's.

[PHall]

Someone will probably be mad that I am bringing this back up, however with all the comments about how hard it will be to get woodland BDU's I just can't resist pointing out that Tru Spec still makes 6 color desert BDU's (available here http://tinyurl.com/2khq4a ) which haven't been used since just after the first gulf war.

They are being used, just not by the U.S. military.  They are being worn by the new Iraqi military. 

I don't think the AF or DoD want CAP or any other organization tied to the military wearing the uniform of a foreign military power. 

I wasn't saying we should be wearing them, just pointing out that they still make them, so I don't think we have to worry about not being able to find Woodland BSU's.

And how much do those Tru-Spec BDU's cost?  I'm willing to bet it way more then what we're paying in Clothing Sales.

[SSgt Rudin]

Someone will probably be mad that I am bringing this back up, however with all the comments about how hard it will be to get woodland BDU's I just can't resist pointing out that Tru Spec still makes 6 color desert BDU's (available here http://tinyurl.com/2khq4a ) which haven't been used since just after the first gulf war.

They are being used, just not by the U.S. military.  They are being worn by the new Iraqi military. 

I don't think the AF or DoD want CAP or any other organization tied to the military wearing the uniform of a foreign military power. 

I wasn't saying we should be wearing them, just pointing out that they still make them, so I don't think we have to worry about not being able to find Woodland BSU's.

And how much do those Tru-Spec BDU's cost?  I'm willing to bet it way more then what we're paying in Clothing Sales.

6 color Desert Top:34.99 bottom: 34.99
Woodland Top:39.99 Bottom:39.99
ACU top 56.99 bottom:56.99

Discounts for bulk orders:
Woodland:
Shirt:
Quan.     1-11     12-72     73-144     145+
Price    $39.99    $33.39    $31.05    $28.98

Pants:
Quan.     1-11     12-72     73-144     145+
Price    $39.99    $33.39    $31.05    $28.98

[PHall]

Even with the Bulk Order discount, they're still about $10 - 15 more then MCSS for the blouse and the trousers. That's about $30 per cadet. Sure way to make Mom and Dad complain.

[DNall]

Those ACU prices are WAY off as well.

[isuhawkeye]

for those of you who are woried about what the cadets should pay.  Here is what CAP's biggest compeditor requires for unicorms
http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/default.aspx?cat=01RTL&ctgy=PRODUCTS&C2=UNIFORMS&C3=TROUSERS&C4=&LV=3
http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/ItemDetail.aspx?cat=01RTL&ctgy=PRODUCTS&c2=UNIFORMS&C3=USHIRTS&C4=&LV=3&item=BSLSS&prodid=BSLSS^8^01RTL&

[0]

Right now I wouldn't be worrying about pricing as we don't have approval for the ABU yet.  When we finally get the approval the prices may have come down by then.

[Eagle400]

for those of you who are woried about what the cadets should pay.  Here is what CAP's biggest compeditor requires for unicorms
http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/default.aspx?cat=01RTL&ctgy=PRODUCTS&C2=UNIFORMS&C3=TROUSERS&C4=&LV=3
http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/ItemDetail.aspx?cat=01RTL&ctgy=PRODUCTS&c2=UNIFORMS&C3=USHIRTS&C4=&LV=3&item=BSLSS&prodid=BSLSS^8^01RTL&

Yes, but members of the Boy Scouts generally don't purchase all the required uniform items; many of them just buy the shirt and wear jeans with them... at least in my neck of the woods.

[danieldfrench]

I agree with BillB that within 5 years we could see the phase out of the BDU.  Given that BDU came in the early ninties, the trend would fit.  Theoretically, the AF could have fully distributed ABU's to the entire service and a surplus could exist for the rest of us.

If all else fails, you could always go Field Uniform.

[mikeylikey]

How the heck did the Boy Scouts get brought into a thread about the ABU's.  Weird.

Anyway, we had our chance to get a huge list of uniform items presented and the process started to clean up the mess.  However, the NHQ uniform guy is an idiot, and reccomended stupid things at the last board meeting.  (like get rid of silver braid for blue braid to make CAP distinctive from AF, when the AF already wears blue).  The guy needs fired for such a ridiculous presentation.

I thought CAP might get ABU's, but after pondering it for a few months, I have a very good feeling we will all be forced into the blue BDU's, most likely in less than 5 years.  I also believe the green bags will disappear, and we will be forced out of the AF service dress as well.

[link]

I thought CAP might get ABU's, but after pondering it for a few months, I have a very good feeling we will all be forced into the blue BDU's, most likely in less than 5 years.  I also believe the green bags will disappear, and we will be forced out of the AF service dress as well.

Why do you think we won't get the ABU's all of a sudden?  Is it because we don't have them yet?  When the Air Force went over to BDU's it took us years till we got them.  So hold your horses there bucko.  I doubt the green bags will disappear as well as I doubt we'll be forced out of the AF service dress.  We are the Air Force Auxillary, we will always be wearing their service uniform. 

And if you still think we might loose the Air Force Service Dress just because there are changes being made left, right, and center maybe it's time you left the program because you don't like how things are run and that things change.

[Eagle400]

Why do you think we won't get the ABU's all of a sudden?  Is it because we don't have them yet?  When the Air Force went over to BDU's it took us years till we got them.  So hold your horses there bucko.  I doubt the green bags will disappear as well as I doubt we'll be forced out of the AF service dress.  We are the Air Force Auxillary, we will always be wearing their service uniform. 

And if you still think we might loose the Air Force Service Dress just because there are changes being made left, right, and center maybe it's time you left the program because you don't like how things are run and that things change.

No.  CAP serves at the pleasure of the Air Force.  They can yank away any of their uniforms from CAP at any time; it is not dependent on the approval of CAP, the CAP/CC, the NB, or the NEC.  Congress may protect CAP's charter, but there is no right to wear AF uniforms within CAP.

There are members (some high ranking) who believe CAP is on an equal level with the Air Force.  Wrong.  CAP is not even a part of the AF Total Force Structure, and every privilige CAP has is fragile and dependent on the conduct of both the membership and the leadership.

I would very much like to see the same relationship between the CG Auxiliary and the CG be applied to CAP and the AF, but that is something that must be earned, and the onus is on CAP.  Some folks don't like that responsibility, and those are the people CAP can do without.   

[DNall]

I thought CAP might get ABU's, but after pondering it for a few months, I have a very good feeling we will all be forced into the blue BDU's, most likely in less than 5 years.  I also believe the green bags will disappear, and we will be forced out of the AF service dress as well.

Why do you think we won't get the ABU's all of a sudden?  Is it because we don't have them yet?  When the Air Force went over to BDU's it took us years till we got them.  So hold your horses there bucko.  I doubt the green bags will disappear as well as I doubt we'll be forced out of the AF service dress.  We are the Air Force Auxillary, we will always be wearing their service uniform. 

And if you still think we might loose the Air Force Service Dress just because there are changes being made left, right, and center maybe it's time you left the program because you don't like how things are run and that things change.

Well first, I got big problems with major aspects of the program, how things are run, and am very frustrated with the inability to effect change - it's literally easier for lowly me to change policy of the whole big Army than it is CAP. That's insane. I've been with CAP for a long time though & don't really intend on leaving, not this week anyway.

That said. The AF stated even before ABUs were finalized that CAP would eventually transition to them, but only after the supply chain was sufficient & their people were covered first.

As far as movement to BBDU, that won't happen either. When BDUs were the popular trend in tactical utility wear, manufactures made the same pattern/material in many colors (hence blue). However, ACU/ABU are the currently popular design trend. They're already making the pattern in other colors (incl dark blue). Eventually, that will be all that's readily avail at a reasonable price. That means transitioning that uniform as well, which then makes the finances of going from BDU to ABU a wash.

Another concern is the similarity to newer Navy/CG utility uniforms. That makes the BBDU less distinguishable from mil, which is significant in that CG is a SaR agency that many of us interact with in the field more often than we do the AF.

[mikeylikey]

And if you still think we might loose the Air Force Service Dress just because there are changes being made left, right, and center maybe it's time you left the program because you don't like how things are run and that things change.

Ouch! 

Don't forget around 37 percent (based on my calculator math skills) were forced out of AF uniforms not too long ago!  You may not have been around for that, but I was.  Those that are "heavier" are not afforded the same rights the AF affords its own members by allowing tapping if you bust the weight regs.

I can personally relate, I am not hugely obese, I work out and lift everyday,  and because of that I would by all accounts bust AF weight standards all the time and require a taping and body fat measurement.  If I were in the AF, I would be allowed to keep wearing the AF uniform, but because the AF said no to taping CAP members, I come very close to not being allowed to wear AF style.  That is a huge slap in the face for many members.

Don't forget too, there was no weight standard for CAP members, that was strictly the AF saying "get out of our uniforms, you embarrass us". 

Finally, please don't reccomend I leave the CAP because I don't like how things are run.  I never said anything like that in my post, I have no idea where you got that and I am somewhat angered.  Please read some of my previous posts for the past 2 years, and you can get an understanding of the type of person I am.  Because if we are going to base assumptions about people solely from one single post, well then you Sir are a (fill in this bank)  <------ See I don't know you yet, so I can't even say what type of person you are!  Just remember I don't hate you!

[DNall]

AF hassn't said no to having a tape test as part of our standards. They haven't been asked. The extra 10% or whatever on the tables is supposed to cover that, but it hasn't been updated concurrent with AF standards.

Taping would obviously cause problems. We're used to a little humiliation in the military & don't take it personally, but you know a lot of civilians would freak out. It'd be hard to keep accountability on as well & the administration would be a hassle. I think it's doable though & anything that puts more members back in AF-style uniforms I'm in favor of.

[lordmonar]

Congress may protect CAP's charter, but there is no right to wear AF uniforms within CAP.

Beg to differ.  Just look at what the ACA and several military schools do.  We don't "need" the USAF's permission to wear the USAF uniform. (I am not advocating this....just pointing out technicalities of the law).  I have looked at both CAP regs and AFIs and I can't find one place where it says that the USAF has veto rights over the USAF style uniforms.

As for us "earning" the right to wear the uniform or enjoing a different relationship with the USAF....you got it all wrong.  CONGRESS has mandated the relationship....we get to play whether the USAF wants us to or not.  And right now the USAF can't afford to loose us. 

[Eagle400]

Beg to differ.  Just look at what the ACA and several military schools do.  We don't "need" the USAF's permission to wear the USAF uniform. (I am not advocating this....just pointing out technicalities of the law).  I have looked at both CAP regs and AFIs and I can't find one place where it says that the USAF has veto rights over the USAF style uniforms.

True, but the AF can mandate the color of epaulets and nametags, prevent hard rank from being worn, and do other things that the ACA and several military schools don't have to worry about.

And why do the ACA and several military schools not have to worry about wearing grey epaulets and nametags and have hard rank taken away?  Because they have not damaged the relationships with the services they represent.

In other words, they earned it.     

As for us "earning" the right to wear the uniform or enjoing a different relationship with the USAF....you got it all wrong.  CONGRESS has mandated the relationship....we get to play whether the USAF wants us to or not.  And right now the USAF can't afford to loose us.

I stand corrected about the authority to wear the AF uniform, however...

Congress may have mandated the relationship, but I can tell you with absolute certainty that if CAP does not play by the Air Force's rules, the relationship between CAP and the USAF will not get any better.  This includes uniforms.

Now, if the CAP leadership want to start cracking down on the "I'm just a volunteer" attitude and every infraction and excuse that goes with it, then maybe things will get better.