Hypothetical Service Dress Change - put us in 1 uniform!

[biomed441]

Hypothetical for discussion sake.  Vanguard used to sell (if I remember correctly) the ww2 style CAP uniforms for reenactment purposes.  Seeing the army re-introducing their heritage uniforms a few years back got me thinking if CAP couldn't possibly do the same thing and get us ALL in 1 dress uniform again because it would be our uniform.  Make some modern updates such as wear of the command patch on one sleeve and authorization for the our current insignia and ribbons. 

I'm not optimistic that we are going to get to a place where we have all of our members in 1 uniform with Blues.. I feel like if it could happen, the USAF would have allowed it by now. Perhaps I'm wrong.

Deviating away from the blues does have some negatives such as impact to the cadet program and potentially losing a little bit of that USAF connection in that regard.  I don't think we would lose our Auxiliary status just for ditching blues, but who knows.  I'm not part of that conversation and just thinking out loud.   I've made my thought known in a different thread about getting us back into a single utility uniform as well. 

So heres a pros/cons that I've thought up of adopting a Heritage Uniform for ALL members

PROS
- Put all of us in a single uniform again
- Its a great looking uniform to begin with and can easily be modernized as needed
- Solves the issue of distinguishing us from our parent service

CONS
- Initial cost with changing uniforms
- Potential impact to cadet program by deviating from the USAF uniform
- We wont get confused with our parent service, but may get confused with the army (though that happens with the AF uniform too ironically from personal experience YMMV)

food for thought.  I just really want to see us in one dress uniform, one field uniform, and one flight uniform.  I'm fortunate enough to be within H/W and grooming standards to have the choice of uniforms, but I don't like going to an event and seeing 8 different uniforms being worn and while some of it is by choice, some of it is not and I try to put myself in those shoes of people who would love to be in a AF style uniform but can't and how that may feel isolating. Or maybe its not an issue and i'm just making scenarios up in my head. 

Anyways We can still have a good looking military-style uniform (arguably better looking than the USAF itself in my personal opinion) that was actually a CAP uniform and can continue to be, that we all can wear regardless of appearance and still get our mission done and not be distracted by who is allowed to wear what.

[SarDragon]

Oh, boy. One of my favorite topics. BLUF - it will be significantly more expensive for the members.

There are two reasons this is impractical. First, if we go to a non-AF uniform, we lose out on any support currently in place, like the Cadet Uniform Vouchers. The AF is not going to fund uniforms not already in their supply system.

Second, and more problematic is economy of scale. The AF buys thousands of uniforms every year. In manufacturing, more generally means cheaper. When you consider CAP's needs, you are talking about a MUCH smaller number of uniforms. Manufacturers are likely unwilling to consider tooling up for such a smaller run of product.

If you do a search on here for "economy of scale" with my user name "SarDragon", you will find over two dozen posts with that phrase. I have pulled out some of the more pertinent post IDs in the list below, and one of them has a few more embedded links. Some of the posts are a bit old, and the numbers might be a little off from current figures, but the basic content is still valid.

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=13836.msg329321#msg329321

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=13836.msg329327#msg329327

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=13836.msg329328#msg329328

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=22891.msg412195#msg412195

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=25785.msg440090#msg440090

[Shuman 14]

So CAP adopts the Army's AGSU, switches out the olive epaulets for scarlet and silver USAF buttons for the Army bronze ones.

we continue to use silver "U.S." lapel insignia, nametag and hat badges and Wing Patches.

Rank could be pinned on the scarlet epaulets for officers, and I guess we could continue using silver and blue NCO rank on both tunics and shirt sleeves. Early USAF NCOs did wear the silver and blue insignia on their old Air Corps/USAAF uniforms in the interim between becoming a separate Service and the adoption and issuing of a blue USAF uniform.

I guess we could bring back the berry Officer boards and a berry plastic nametag for the shirts. I just don't see grey working on khaki very well.

We would clearly look "different" from Army and USAF Officers and NCOs.

That being said, the AGSU is rather pricey and being so new, there is not yet much of a surplus market and as MAJ Bowles pointed out, the USAF is unlikely to monetarily support a non-USAF uniform.

[biomed441]

Your sarcasm is noted @SarDragon.  Doesn't hurt to bring up old ideas once in a while though as the problem far as I can tell has not been solved and never know if someone new has entered the chat and has a different angle. 

That said I'm not saying my angle is a good one.  Its a thought.  Economy of scale is a thing for sure. I'm familiar with the term and its applications and is what drives many choices made.  The challenge of being a uniformed organization though means we are going to have costs associated with procuring and maintaining that uniform. Vanguard produced the vintage uniform in short supply before. I don't know where they got them or how much they cost, but they did run them.  For all I know they could have been the Texas A and M Cadet uniforms.

So if we for a moment could overcome the economy of scale argument, and vanguard (or another vendor) could produce a vintage style CAP uniform at an equivalent price or within 10% +/- it could serve as an option in getting everyone in a single uniform. The membership # also remember is not static.  We may hold between 55-60K members a year, but Cadets are a revolving door, and seniors join and leave as well so that does generate surplus, as well as new purchases.   

It doesn't solve the cadet programs issues that arise though.  As mentioned the USAF likely wouldn't sponsor a curry voucher for uniforms that are not theirs.  Though, I was a cadet prior to that being an offering to cadets.  And in my local area the closest source of new Blues uniforms was several hours away and there was no local surplus. We could purchase them from the CAP Bookstore as an option. The Cadet program ran strong without a curry voucher program before.  I'd hate to see that go away and would be a negative against moving the cadets out of blues.  So a point made before by others, @Shuman 14 I believe has made this point, is you leave cadets in blues and make the heritage uniform a senior only item.  I actually don't see that being as bad as some might think it is and adding a little distinction between cadets and seniors could be beneficial.

If we aren't all going to be in a single uniform, I'd rather the line be drawn between Seniors and Cadets instead of by physical characteristics that some may have no control over.  And that line would open up more doors. We could in that case just go strictly corporate with the white and grey, control the source a bit so we all have the same grey, and standardize options a bit more...  I personally don't like the grey/white corporate uniform but that may be more of the how its worn, not necessarily what is worn. It doesn't hold the same "treat it like a uniform" mindset despite what 39-1 says.  Some do wear it well while others look like they slept in it and don't know their own shirt size.  Same can be said with blues but it is far less common from what I have seen. YMMV on that one. 

Adopting the AGSU could be an option. I'd worry if the Army actually did approve it for CAP wear that they might impose similar height/weight/grooming restrictions?  Would be an interesting ask.

 

[SarDragon]

Your sarcasm is noted @SarDragon.  Doesn't hurt to bring up old ideas once in a while though as the problem far as I can tell has not been solved and never know if someone new has entered the chat and has a different angle.

There was no sarcasm intended. I've been a member of this organization for 54 years and have seen many uniform combinations come and go. Up until recently, our AF style uniforms have come from a relatively large supply, acquisition by our members has been fairly easy. The fact that the AF has made two changes in a short period of time has been a major part of the problem.

Purchasing any one-look-fits-all uniform is going to be expensive. As it is, many of our members complain about the cost of what we currently have available, both cadets and senior members. In my unit, most of the SMs don't even have the minimum required uniform (aviator shirt combo). They all wear the polo shirt, or a flight suit as needed.

I fully support the idea of a one-look-fits-all uniform, but I also have no practical answers, and I've been pondering it a LONG time. Throwing the members' money at it isn't, IMHO, a good idea.

[biomed441]

Unfortunately uniformity comes at a cost.  I don't like the idea of excessive burden on members, but I also wonder how much of the complaints on uniform costs comes from an unrealistic expectation going into CAP.  How many unit commanders are being up front with members before they join that the membership fee is just the start.  I've seen it and I'm sure you have as well where the approach is " your membership fee is XYZ a year, super cheap, and we may have uniforms here that you can fit in, but for now just get in a polo shirt" and that's the end of the discussion.

I have had the pleasure of commanding a few squadrons and one of the things we always made sure of during our potential member review panels was that while yes, if we have something on hand you can requisition it from our supply officer, expect to pay 100% out of pocket for new uniform items and its not going to be cheap.  I never lost a prospective member over having that conversation and seniors always had either the blues or aviator within the 1st two months. When you set the expectation early you can get them in uniform.   Cadets, different story and as you mentioned as long as we have the USAF uniform for cadets, we can likely expect to have some degree of financial assistance be it the curry voucher or whatever else comes down the pipe in the future. 

I hate to be that guy but as far as seniors go, so long as we are a uniformed organization, that expectation of what our minimum is needs to be enforced and costs need to be up-front and realistic. And if we are going to continue to have a service dress uniform, there will be costs associated with it unfortunately. Blues are not getting cheaper for seniors. No vouchers from the USAF for us.  Surplus is great if you have access to it.  But we can't all wear it anyways so as a matter of cost and getting us in 1 uniform getting rid of blues for seniors would be the only option in our current situation.   

Switching to a completely new uniform (heritage or whatever else) is expensive and yes economy of scale is an impact so that leaves us with our current aviator uniform and blazer for more formal occasions.  Does it work for those purposes? yep sure does.  I think we could do a little better with it if that were the 1 size fits all answer.  White shirt, go to the USAF blue epaulets with CAP embroidered on them.  Standardize the grey pants / shade and standardize the belt.  Female options for skirt and blouse etc... to remain as well but again standardizing the grey.  I'm not sure about the blazer.  I don't know if there's a slightly more military style commercially available jacket that ribbons could be worn on or not.  Suppose you could get away with wearing the blazer with ribbons on it instead of the blazer badge/name plate deal.  Maybe add a sleave braid or something.

The blues or bust crowd wont like this idea of course, but I just really don't see the USAF relaxing on their height/weight/grooming requirements. They already gave us an allowance on the height and weight.

All ideas probably thought of already which is why i brought up the heritage uniform. I hadn't seen that brought up yet and while it wouldn't be cheap, if Vanguard was willing to do a short run of them to support reenactments, they'd possibly be willing to run at a higher scale knowing its an official uniform again could potentially meet their economy of scale while still being similar in cost to blues uniforms... may be impossible I don't know. That would be up to vanguard.

[Shuman 14]

Okay, so if I read you correctly, you want to keep the USAF-style Service Uniform for Cadets, so the Air Force continues to partially support them (ie Curry Voucher).

Feild/Flight/Working Uniforms remain unchanged (ie Polo/Grey Trouser, ABU, BBDU, Flight-suit Green or Blue).

So, you only want to change the Service Uniform for SENIORS, so we have uniformity across the organization.

I would be down for that.

While I am a currently serving Army Officer (for at least 14 more months), I cannot speak for the Army... that being said... it has been my observation that Army does not have quite the same issue with larger persons or less clean-cut persons being seen in their uniform. I point to various reenactor groups, the numerous State Defense Forces and other semi-authorized groups that are wearing variations of the ASU (Blues) and AGSU (Brown and Khaki) uniforms.

Like the conversion kit for Enlisted to Officer USAF Service Uniform, it would be fairly easy for Vanguard to develop a red (scarlet/maroon) epaulet kit to convert AGSUs to a Heritage CAP Uniform. Maybe add a red cuff braid as well to the kit.

As I pointed out above, continue using silver USAF-style buttons, insignia and NCO rank would differentiate CAP from the Army (and the Air Force as well). The only other "new" thing would the replacement for the grey nametag and shoulder slides.

As the Army finishes implementing the AGSU rollout, eventually the CAP Heritage Uniform would not be any more expensive than the USAF-style uniform currently is.

Mess uniforms, for those few that have them, could remain as they are.

Now, can we get USAF and CAP Senior membership to buy in to this. THAT, might be the bigger struggle.

[biomed441]

I mean really I'd like to have both cadets and seniors in 1 uniform as well, but I think managing a single uniform for seniors and letting cadets remain in the USAF style uniform in an effort to preserve the cost benefits could be a decent compromise.

Field /working uniforms Id prefer single as well. All of us in BBDU or all of us in ABU, same with the flight suit, blue or green. take your pick.  The working uniforms are interesting to me though.  The only thing that really makes the green flight suit a USAF uniform is the wear of the blue flight CAP.  The USAF as far as I'm aware doesn't have exclusive rights to the bag itself so that seems like a simple solution. Ditch the flight cap and you have no issue.   I"m also curious how the move to OCP goes.  That uniform by itself is not exclusively USAF either. The army uses it, state guard units use it, police in some jurisdictions use it.  Is it the fact that because we have the Auxiliary title that the USAF has say in our working uniforms? Honest question.  The ABU made sense as that was specific to the USAF. The rest I'm curious what the rational is.

The height and weight issues really don't make sense to me either as the USAF uses BMI now and as you point out a lot of para-military organizations are using variations of the Army uniforms with very little regard to height and weight.  Maybe its really just a question that hasn't been asked to see if the USAF Would relax its requirement (if its still even their requirement).  Or move to a variation of the AGSU once its been in the pipeline for a while, adopt it with changes like the red epaulets and cuff braid like how CAP wore it in WWII.  It would not be difficult to transition,  but it would be a hard sell to USAF and CAP senior members I'm sure.  The second $$$ comes up, its an issue.  And I get that, I'm by no means rich either and shelling out hundreds on a dress uniform that I wear maybe once or twice a year is hard to justify for a volunteer organization so I do understand that angle.

With more and more CAP activities that use to require dress uniforms now defaulting to polo shirts anyways you could even argue ditching dress uniforms altogether... course then what do we wear all our bling on. The only pay our members get is through recognition and the dress uniform does serve as a visual form of payment.  That's a completely different can of worms though.

[skymaster]

I wonder why so many people considering an AGSU alternative CAP dress uniform seem to think that red/scarlet epaulets and braid must be a necessity for a CAP version of the uniform to honor CAP's history. If looked at historically, that trim was ONLY used for a little over two years (from 1942 through 1944), and the decision to remove the red trim was actually already initiated by the U.S. Army itself, with a red Civil Air Patrol arc on the CAP shoulder patch as sufficient distinction, and regular Army officer braid and insignia. The cap device was already different from the Army, which is still the case, and silver buttons were also different from the Army gold buttons, which is still the case. If such an AGSU CAP version were authorized, it would be easier to just use standard braid (even silver/blue USAF nameplates which are ALREADY in the supply system), and USAF grade and shoulder marks, but worn on a khaki uniform. Before anyone thinks that blue or silver on tan or green cloth backgrounds looks out of place, or doesn't match, perhaps you should look at the dress uniform of the California Highway Patrol. The Army probably wouldn't mind the insignia being worn on their style of uniform because the accessory colors would be sufficiently different enough from the Army, while the Air Force probably wouldn't mind the fact that some of their color of insignia would be worn on a uniform that uses colors that they do not. Again, this would provide a professional uniform that a much larger percentage of the membership could wear, with elements that ALREADY exist in the DOD supply system NOW, which would keep costs down. And, one would have to admit that blue Air Force grade shoulder marks worn on a khaki shirt would be definitely be distinctive, without resorting to a CAP only red braid that was only worn in the past for 2 years.

[Shuman 14]

Well, in the Coast Guard Auxiliary they have super long wear out dates when uniform changes occur.

So, let's say we make it five years from the date implementation of the CAP Heritage Uniform (CAPHU) for wear-out of the USAF-style Service Uniform.

There will be CAP members that will have the complete CAPHU ready to go on day one it is authorized and there will people who, six months after the USAF-style is no longer authorized, will still show up in it and plead ignorance (I didn't know we couldn't wear this anymore). That is the nature of things in a volunteer organization.

All new members should be advised of the change and encouraged to wait for the changeover before buying any Service uniforms, and at a certain point, people will say "Senior Members used to wear the Cadet uniform? When was that? Boy, you've been in CAP awhile."

Then we'll be arguing about the next new shinny thing we want that the USAF won't let us have.

[Shuman 14]

[biomed441]

@skymaster Interesting bit on the red. I didn't know it was only in use for a few years. I assumed it was used much longer than that, at least until CAP transitioned to the blues uniform.  If only I was able to find a national archive of members from those formative years. My late grandfather was in CAP during this time and mentioned wearing the khaki shirt with the red epaulets. Unfortunately no record of his service is in the family possession.  Anyways use of red, another color perhaps as you suggest, makes little difference to me on the specifics as long as it presents a professional Image. I just recalled seeing the old uniforms and thinking they look really sharp and as the army is using the AGSU, very similar with some modern updates; it could be a real viable option for CAP. 

I read the USAF is considering its own "heritage" uniform of sorts in response to the army. Last bit of info on that I have seen was from 2023 so may be dead. If it is the case though, then at some point the USAF Will transition to a new uniform and CAP will follow suit anyways and at that point the AGSU would likely be cheaper than blues.  Or maybe the transition would be a chance for CAP to say, hey let us ALL wear the blues if the USAF really wants us in their uniform.

[skymaster]

To be more specific on the dates of the red shoulder straps and braid, it began with an announcement from National Headquarters on 17 July 1942 on NHQ General Memorandum 45. The end of those was two short years later, as announced 27 October 1944 per CAP News Bulletin Vol. III, No. 34. The 1944 publication stated: "The principal change in addition to the removal of the red loops and the red sleeve braid from the officers' blouses wi11 be the placing of the words CIVIL AIR PATROL above the shoulder-sleeve emblem." Meaning that the Army itself considered the small arc shaped addition to the CAP shoulder sleeve insignia was distinctive enough on the Army uniform DURING A MAJOR WORLD WAR, with silver buttons and all-silver wing-and-prop branch insignia. Also, remember that it was the very same U.S. Army that made CAP Coastal Patrol personnel take the same Oath of Enlistment/Commissioning as active duty Army personnel, and subjected to the Laws of War (forerunner of the Uniform Code of Military Justice), and had the Army Judge Advocate classified those CAP members as "forces accompanying the U.S. Army in the field" instead of just civilians.

[biomed441]

More interesting history for sure! Appreciate it.  It is interesting how the US Army wasn't overly concerned about the level of distinction at the time for the CAP members though as pointed out they were under a different set of rules and operating in a combative manner.  Today it is a much different story, though it seems the Army still has a much more flexible approach to who may or may not wear their uniforms with identifying marks being as simple as a patch on the shoulder.  It would be nice if the USAF would be a bit more relaxed on it as well but the AF also doesn't have a bunch of state defense forces and other agencies hitting them up for permission to use the uniform and I'm not sure how well the USAF would take to CAP adopting an army uniform... Maybe they wouldn't care at all though?

[TheSkyHornet]

Let's not pretend like this is about logistical constraints and the costs put on members to switch uniforms.

The Air Force adopted OCPs in 2018 (6 years ago). Nobody in the Air Force has been wearing ABUs since 2021 (3 years ago). We're the only remaining customer for the ABU.

Many members don't even have Blues. Most that do rarely wear them. Frankly, the dress uniform combinations are the least of our worries...

[PHall]

Let's not pretend like this is about logistical constraints and the costs put on members to switch uniforms.

The Air Force adopted OCPs in 2018 (6 years ago). Nobody in the Air Force has been wearing ABUs since 2021 (3 years ago). We're the only remaining customer for the ABU.

Many members don't even have Blues. Most that do rarely wear them. Frankly, the dress uniform combinations are the least of our worries...

We are still wearing ABU's because CAP has not made the request to the Air Force to change to the OCP.
We have met the enemy and they is us!

[Stonewall]

Let's not pretend like this is about logistical constraints and the costs put on members to switch uniforms.

The Air Force adopted OCPs in 2018 (6 years ago). Nobody in the Air Force has been wearing ABUs since 2021 (3 years ago). We're the only remaining customer for the ABU.

Many members don't even have Blues. Most that do rarely wear them. Frankly, the dress uniform combinations are the least of our worries...

We are still wearing ABU's because CAP has not made the request to the Air Force to change to the OCP.

We have met the enemy and they is us!

Phil, your information is not correct.

This is from a few days ago...

FYSA on the CAP OCP proposal is dead in the water. AF JA and  CAP-USAF CC both believe the CAP proposal lacks enough distinction from military member duty uniform. CAP is going to go back to drawing board.

I really do hope it's a cruel joke,

[Shuman 14]

So if the "CAP OCP proposal" was similar to the ABU differences (i.e. white-on-blue tapes, white (or Gold)-on-blue rank, white-on-blue badges, black boots, and full color patches) what is the "lack of distinction" they are concerned about?

If it was fine for BDU and ABU, why is it "not" fine for OCP?

This is why the only CAP "uniform" I have is a polo shirt, grey tac-pants and a blue MA1 Flight Jacket for the winter.

[biomed441]

Let's not pretend like this is about logistical constraints and the costs put on members to switch uniforms.

The Air Force adopted OCPs in 2018 (6 years ago). Nobody in the Air Force has been wearing ABUs since 2021 (3 years ago). We're the only remaining customer for the ABU.

Many members don't even have Blues. Most that do rarely wear them. Frankly, the dress uniform combinations are the least of our worries...

We are still wearing ABU's because CAP has not made the request to the Air Force to change to the OCP.

We have met the enemy and they is us!

Phil, your information is not correct.

This is from a few days ago...

FYSA on the CAP OCP proposal is dead in the water. AF JA and  CAP-USAF CC both believe the CAP proposal lacks enough distinction from military member duty uniform. CAP is going to go back to drawing board.

I really do hope it's a cruel joke,

Curious of the source of this, though wouldn't be surprised.  Part of me thinks the only reason we got ABUs is because the AF was already planning to transition out of them.  I'm not sure what the exact OCP request looked like.  Like Shuman said if it's anything like how we currently wear ABUs, that seems pretty distinctive to me.  Or we could just not rely on the USAF and go with BBDUs for all... unpopular opinion to some, but would eliminate a lot of issues.  Could maybe see if there's a similar cut to OCP offered in blue if it was even worth the trouble.

[CAPJOE]

Let's not pretend like this is about logistical constraints and the costs put on members to switch uniforms.

The Air Force adopted OCPs in 2018 (6 years ago). Nobody in the Air Force has been wearing ABUs since 2021 (3 years ago). We're the only remaining customer for the ABU.

Many members don't even have Blues. Most that do rarely wear them. Frankly, the dress uniform combinations are the least of our worries...

We are still wearing ABU's because CAP has not made the request to the Air Force to change to the OCP.

We have met the enemy and they is us!

Phil, your information is not correct.

This is from a few days ago...

FYSA on the CAP OCP proposal is dead in the water. AF JA and  CAP-USAF CC both believe the CAP proposal lacks enough distinction from military member duty uniform. CAP is going to go back to drawing board.

I really do hope it's a cruel joke,

Curious of the source of this, though wouldn't be surprised.  Part of me thinks the only reason we got ABUs is because the AF was already planning to transition out of them.  I'm not sure what the exact OCP request looked like.  Like Shuman said if it's anything like how we currently wear ABUs, that seems pretty distinctive to me.  Or we could just not rely on the USAF and go with BBDUs for all... unpopular opinion to some, but would eliminate a lot of issues.  Could maybe see if there's a similar cut to OCP offered in blue if it was even worth the trouble.

My big problem with the BBDU is that it is the uniform of numerous SWAT teams around the country. The last thing that I want is to be recognized by the public is a SWAT team member.