future CAP OCP uniform: blue name tapes w/ camo pattern rank?

[SierraOneThree]

So why the delay?

Vanguard, last I heard.

[SARDOC]

few years from now.

 

Seriously, there's no need to delay. The COVID-19 shortages are over. The Army (AC, RC, NG), the Air Force (AC, RC, NG) and the Space Force (AC, RC, NG) have ALL completed their transitions to OCPs. The uniform is readily available from AAFES and numerous commercial vendors.

So why the delay?

The Delay isn't Civil Air Patrol, the delay is the Air Force because I think they like to make it more complicated than it needs to be.  The Air Force says it takes years to process this kind of request.  Civil Air Patrol has made the request.  The ball is no longer in our court.

[Fubar]

Vanguard, last I heard.

Vanguard is a piece of the puzzle. Even when the Air Force eventually gives permissions, CAP has to plan the transition around how much stock of ABU stuff Vanguard has. As soon as CAP announces the phase out of ABUs, CAP has to purchase whatever remaining stock of ABU items Vanguard has so that they don't end up with product they can't sell.

[HandsomeWalt_USMC]

Vanguard, last I heard.

Vanguard is a piece of the puzzle. Even when the Air Force eventually gives permissions, CAP has to plan the transition around how much stock of ABU stuff Vanguard has. As soon as CAP announces the phase out of ABUs, CAP has to purchase whatever remaining stock of ABU items Vanguard has so that they don't end up with product they can't sell.

I don't doubt you're right, but I don't see why they have to buy them until the final phaseout date. Let VG sell them until then, just direct no new orders. They kept selling BDU clothing and ultramarine items on closeout for years. I'm sure some clever fellow with a mind for retail analytics can determine exactly when to stop producing/stocking the ABU stuff as the OCPs come out.

[SierraOneThree]

The Delay isn't Civil Air Patrol, the delay is the Air Force because I think they like to make it more complicated than it needs to be.  The Air Force says it takes years to process this kind of request.  Civil Air Patrol has made the request.  The ball is no longer in our court.

The Air Force approved it ages ago, from what I understand direct from the NUC chair as of late last year. OCPs are a given and everyone involved knows it, the only thing I can think of as far as going back to make them review it again was the addition of brown boots a few months back. But now I'm hearing the uniform has once again been pushed out a year or two, so some transparency would be nice given how many squadrons/members simply cannot get ABUs anymore.

[Fubar]

I don't doubt you're right, but I don't see why they have to buy them until the final phaseout date. Let VG sell them until then, just direct no new orders. They kept selling BDU clothing and ultramarine items on closeout for years. I'm sure some clever fellow with a mind for retail analytics can determine exactly when to stop producing/stocking the ABU stuff as the OCPs come out.

Because the second you say ABUs are on the way out and here's where to buy the new uniform, the demand for the discontinued uniform is gonna drop to near zero. At least that's what happened with the BDU to ABU transition. I doubt Vanguard is willing (and likely isn't contractually obligated) to sit on ABU inventory for the five year phase-out of ABUs to then have CAP purchase wasn't sold.

So the goal is to have the inventory as low as possible so that CAP buys the minimal amount of uniforms as possible to then, presumably, throw away.

[Fubar]

The Air Force approved it ages ago, from what I understand direct from the NUC chair as of late last year. OCPs are a given and everyone involved knows it, the only thing I can think of as far as going back to make them review it again was the addition of brown boots a few months back. But now I'm hearing the uniform has once again been pushed out a year or two, so some transparency would be nice given how many squadrons/members simply cannot get ABUs anymore.

Well, the CEO and his vice commander (and soon to be CEO) keep answering the question at wing conferences across the country and people keep posting what they say, so they don't seem to be treating the information like a secret. I also just checked, Vanguard is still selling ABUs, so there shouldn't be any members who can't get ABUs if they want/need them.

[SierraOneThree]

Well, the CEO and his vice commander (and soon to be CEO) keep answering the question at wing conferences across the country and people keep posting what they say, so they don't seem to be treating the information like a secret. I also just checked, Vanguard is still selling ABUs, so there shouldn't be any members who can't get ABUs if they want/need them.

More than their fair share of anecdotes reporting severe backorders.

Also, they're pretty much the ONLY real "consistent" place to get ABUs, and you get to pay nearly $130 for a full set. You can save a few bucks by not getting a patrol cap though. Going to encampment and need a second set of ABUs? Good luck!

[Shuman 14]

Vanguard, last I heard.

FRAK Vanguard. 

They'll just up charge the cost of a uniform that can be bought for a third less online elsewhere. 

Okay, I completely understand the need to have a single source for CAP specific items (rank, badges, awards, etc,) but I don't think we need to be tied to them for uniform clothing items.

Blue BDUs can be bought from numerous venders.
OCPs can be bought from numerous venders.
USAF-style uniforms can be bought from numerous venders.
White pilot shirts, grey trousers, and dark blue suit coats can be bought from numerous venders.

BUT, they have us by the short hairs for ABUs, because no one else wants them. I submit to you it is STILL easier to get woodland pattern BDUs from an outside vender today, then it is to get ABUs from ANYWHERE besides Vanguard.

Again, this is why we need to put a clause in CAPR 39-1 that within 5-years of any uniform change by the USAF, it will be adopted, with appropriate CAP modification, by CAP.

This eliminates future "Mother May I" requests and puts Vanguard on notice not to buy additional obsolete uniforms in the 5-year transition period when chang occurs.

[Shuman 14]

[quote/] The Delay isn't Civil Air Patrol, the delay is the Air Force because I think they like to make it more complicated than it needs to be.  The Air Force says it takes years to process this kind of request.  Civil Air Patrol has made the request.  The ball is no longer in our court.
[/quote]

That's a fair answer and most likely the truth.

[SierraOneThree]

The Delay isn't Civil Air Patrol, the delay is the Air Force because I think they like to make it more complicated than it needs to be.  The Air Force says it takes years to process this kind of request.  Civil Air Patrol has made the request.  The ball is no longer in our court.

That's a fair answer and most likely the truth.

I have consistent spoken with people directly involved with the draft and working committees and to a T they all pretty much have told me over the years that aside from DLA, it makes its way through the CAP-USAF approval fairly quickly. That said, I understand we had DLA approval early last year, so the word that I got about it being Vanguard (from the NUC chair last year) seems most plausible unless they keep changing things after approval.

One of those changes being brown boots though? Yeah, I'm fine with that one having delayed things.

[Fubar]

Again, this is why we need to put a clause in CAPR 39-1 that within 5-years of any uniform change by the USAF, it will be adopted, with appropriate CAP modification, by CAP.

Of course the issue would be getting the USAF to sign off one giving up their bureaucracy and pre-approving CAP to get uniforms. That doesn't seem like something a bureaucracy would do.

[ColonelJack]

Of course the issue would be getting the USAF to sign off one giving up their bureaucracy and pre-approving CAP to get uniforms. That doesn't seem like something a bureaucracy would do.

For some reason, that line made me think of Sir Humphrey Appleby from the BBC political comedy Yes, Prime Minister.  It's just a line Sir Humphrey would say.

Jack

[Shuman 14]

Again, this is why we need to put a clause in CAPR 39-1 that within 5-years of any uniform change by the USAF, it will be adopted, with appropriate CAP modification, by CAP.

Of course the issue would be getting the USAF to sign off one giving up their bureaucracy and pre-approving CAP to get uniforms. That doesn't seem like something a bureaucracy would do.

Well, if we don't try, we'll never know, the worst they can do/say is "no".

How many times did we have to ask about military awards on corporate uniforms and now they finally said yes.

I say push it forward and see what happen. A five-year wear-out date is more than reasonable.

[Shuman 14]

embroidered cadet enlisted insignia

They might be cheaper in the long run and less likely to get damaged on a field uniform.

Possibly cheaper, but a WHOLE lot less convenient. We had sew-on rank WIWAC, and it was a real pain, even considering the less frequent promotion intervals. The sewing jobs were inconsistent, and positioning was hit and miss.

On top of that, the sew-on stripes weren't as reusable as the pin-on rank. Once sewn on, washed a few times, and given an ironed-in crease, they weren't easily removed and reused on another cadet's uniform.

I think you're think of something different. I believe the discussion of embroidered cadet stripes is they are embroidered on a fabric square with a velcro backing to put on the OCP tab for grade insignia, like the military does, not sew-on the sleeves.

Belated follow up but I just found these, USAF JROTC Rank on OCP.

Not the same as CAP Cadet Rank, but showing it can be easily done, once we move OCPs.

Full color on OCP patch or Blue patch, either will look fine and in pairs, one for the OCP top and one an outer coat.

[NIN]

Full color on OCP patch or Blue patch, either will look fine and in pairs, one for the OCP top and one an outer coat.

And the fleece (IIRC, its a slide, not a velcro tab, on outerwear like a goretex..)

[Shuman 14]

Full color on OCP patch or Blue patch, either will look fine and in pairs, one for the OCP top and one an outer coat.

And the fleece (IIRC, its a slide, not a velcro tab, on outerwear like a goretex..)

The coyote fleeces have a velcro patch, the light and mid weight OCP coats have velcro patches only the extreme cold/wet gortex top, which the fleece goes under, has a tab anymore and it no longer has an arm pocket for the mini nametape.