July 04, 2020, 03:49:00 pm

NHQ Needs to release guidance

Started by OldGuy, March 17, 2020, 02:57:36 pm

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Eclipse

Spectacularly bad ideas which I sincerely hope don't wind up showing exactly how bad those are.




JohhnyD

Quote from: PHall on March 18, 2020, 01:25:33 amCAWG has a CAP Corp mission to help the Red Cross distribute school lunches to the students who are receiving them.
So maybe we do do those missions.
A great idea and an example of how we can help.

Eclipse




Lord of the North

Quote from: Eclipse on March 18, 2020, 01:32:44 amSpectacularly bad ideas which I sincerely hope don't wind up showing exactly how bad those are.

Quote from: JohhnyD on March 18, 2020, 02:25:12 am
Quote from: PHall on March 18, 2020, 01:25:33 amCAWG has a CAP Corp mission to help the Red Cross distribute school lunches to the students who are receiving them.
So maybe we do do those missions.
A great idea and an example of how we can help.

There you have the typical CAP discussion in all of it's beauty.   GOOD LUCK ALL

JohhnyD

Quote from: Lord of the North on March 18, 2020, 03:10:09 amThere you have the typical CAP discussion in all of it's beauty.   GOOD LUCK ALL
Yep.

Fester

Quote from: OldGuy on March 17, 2020, 05:42:40 pm
Quote from: NIN on March 17, 2020, 05:40:14 pmBecause if NHQ did have concrete ideas and guidance, you'd be telling us that none of that will work in your neck of the woods.
Really? How often have I ever said that?

We have the largest opportunity for DR service in history in front of us, and we get told to "stand down" and hear nothing from Wing/Region/NHQ and that is OK?

What exactly do you envision us doing in this DR service?
1stLt, CAP
Squadron CC
Group CPO
Eaker - 1996

Fester

Quote from: OldGuy on March 17, 2020, 06:06:11 pm
Quote from: NIN on March 17, 2020, 06:02:47 pmDon't sit there on your hands, waiting for someone from Alabama to tell you what to do and how to do it. Do what you need to do for the people in your unit now. Help your commanders. Help your members. Help your cadets.
We are not, we are doing as much as we can think of. My point is that the PAO community can and should be tasked with better internal communications.

Thanks for all that you do, please don't take the cries for help as anything other than what they are - a reminder that communications matters. A lot. Especially in the "fog of war" environment we are in.

I still don't understand why PAO's feel we need to publicize what we are doing.  Let the people who NEED air time and press (Public Health Officials, Local, State and Federal Government Officials, etc...) Have the air time and press.  We have no need that I can see for us to be trying to get this information public other than on our public facing media.... Websites and Social Media.
1stLt, CAP
Squadron CC
Group CPO
Eaker - 1996

PHall

Quote from: Eclipse on March 18, 2020, 01:32:44 amSpectacularly bad ideas which I sincerely hope don't wind up showing exactly how bad those are.



I'll pass your concerns on to the CAWG Commander, The California OES and the Red Cross.
But the kids who are getting fed may disagree with you.

CAP9907

March 18, 2020, 06:38:03 am #28 Last Edit: March 18, 2020, 06:43:37 am by CAP9907
Quote from: PHall on March 18, 2020, 05:12:54 am
Quote from: Eclipse on March 18, 2020, 01:32:44 amSpectacularly bad ideas which I sincerely hope don't wind up showing exactly how bad those are.



I'll pass your concerns on to the CAWG Commander, The California OES and the Red Cross.
But the kids who are getting fed may disagree with you.

If you'd read through the Unit log for that mission, you'd see exactly why this was and is not a good idea for CAP to be involved in. As an IC and also a MSO, I would have declined this mission for the Wing and  would have been justified in doing so.

~9907
21 yrs of service

Our Members Code of Conduct can be found here:   http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=13.0

JayT

Quote from: JohhnyD on March 17, 2020, 08:29:38 pm
Quote from: NIN on March 17, 2020, 06:26:56 pmThanks. If I'm a little short, its because I was already sick of the words "COVID-19" by last Friday. I snapped at a co-worker yesterday here at work which is very uncharacteristic of me (the look on his face was all I needed to know that I did a boo-boo). My twice-annual sinus pressure and headache decided to visit yesterday and that didn't help matters much, either.
I get it, I run a directly affected business. We opened our crisis management team a week ago, went to max alter Friday, 100% of my workforce is now working remote. A colleague in Seattle has lost 5 customers already to this virus. It is real and we are all under stress.

Now, that said, we - CAP - are missing the largest opportunity to serve ever. Why? Every Emer Mgmt Center in the US of A has been on alert and working 24x7, we can make a difference, and we do nothing. Frustrating.

What function can CAP actually serve in this current crisis? What sort of PPE do you have available? What ID response capability does it have? I am a serving paramedic, and the deputy supervisor for my shop. I am on the very front line of this. What is needed is more PPE, more cleaning supplies, and medical staff. What is NOT needed is civic minded people who will only make it worst by spreading the disease while trying to help. We're even turning away our own volunteer staff unless absolutely necessary. Wanting to serve is one thing. Being able to is different.
"Eagerness and thrill seeking in others' misery is psychologically corrosive, and is also rampant in EMS. It's a natural danger of the job. It will be something to keep under control, something to fight against."

JohhnyD

Quote from: Fester on March 18, 2020, 03:42:28 amMy point is that the PAO community can and should be tasked with better internal communications.

Odd, internal communications seemed to be the point, maybe you misread that word?

JohhnyD

Quote from: JayT on March 18, 2020, 11:50:06 amWhat function can CAP actually serve in this current crisis? 

Airborne transport of critical supplies? Providing remote MSA services? Remote PAO services? All of the local EOCs are working with as many people remote as possible, so no PPE needed.

JohhnyD

Also, Local VAs are doing remote screening with PPE and ORM provided by VA. We could easily help there, no?

THRAWN

Quote from: JohhnyD on March 18, 2020, 01:16:13 pmAlso, Local VAs are doing remote screening with PPE and ORM provided by VA. We could easily help there, no?

No. Show me the CAP regulation that covers training to participate in something like that.
Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016

1st Lt Thompson

You can debate whether or not we can be of use all day long, but the fact of the matter is that any agency that may or may not request our help will have an MOU with CAP, and will request said help through proper channels, at which time an ORM will be conducted to determine if the need is great enough to risk the health and safety of CAP personnel. None of us have the ability to send people to help out where they may or may not be wanted, if they are needed they will follow proper channels to request our assistance.

Until then, send the planes for maintenance, check your gear and replace/repair as needed, read some task guides, study for your Yeager, shine your boots etc etc etc and by all means wash your hands!
1st Lt Matt Thompson
Historian, Assistant PAO

Mitchell - 31 OCT 98 (#44670) Earhart - 1 OCT 00 (#11401)

Spam

Quote from: JohhnyD on March 18, 2020, 01:16:13 pmAlso, Local VAs are doing remote screening with PPE and ORM provided by VA. We could easily help there, no?

Oh, HECK no.

THRAWN

Quote from: JohhnyD on March 18, 2020, 01:15:24 pm
Quote from: JayT on March 18, 2020, 11:50:06 amWhat function can CAP actually serve in this current crisis? 

Airborne transport of critical supplies? Providing remote MSA services? Remote PAO services? All of the local EOCs are working with as many people remote as possible, so no PPE needed.


What supplies? The transportation infrastructure is still intact and running, so using CAP for that isn't even being considered. What remote MSA services? What PAO services? Yes, the EOCs are up and running but if your wing isn't written into your state pandemic response plan, you're not going to the prom. CAP does not have a role here. So no PPE needed.
Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016

THRAWN

Quote from: Spam on March 18, 2020, 01:51:26 pm
Quote from: JohhnyD on March 18, 2020, 01:16:13 pmAlso, Local VAs are doing remote screening with PPE and ORM provided by VA. We could easily help there, no?

Oh, HECK no.

I used a different word, but same end result.
Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016

Spam

I've been participating in, planning, or leading CAP DR exercises and actuals since the early 80s, and it would seem that these debates are running true to form:  members with peripheral (not core planning or leadership experience) act in good faith to call for action. They predictably and reactively make some speculative and wild comments without due consideration of risk, planning, staffing, doctrinal questions, or coordination of how CAP would fit within the overarching response. In some cases (not here on CT, yet), I've seen people who could care less about planning and documentation and meeting the CAP regulations for ops preplans, become the first hotheads to criticize our lack of action.


That's not meant to label anyone on this thread, by any means. Its just an observation that we're seemingly on what I've seen as a natural sequence of debate regarding large scale incident response.


I've come to sincerely appreciate the humane response of my teammates - the desire to help, the desire to do something for those in need - but I've also seen a darker tint where a tiny minority seek to flex their imagined expertise (e.g. out of town "experts" bulling their way into response areas). In a past incident I had NHQ call my unit with earnest intent to order the ancient DoD surplus ambulance (*with all of 7 mpg) on our manifest surged into an area with dwindling fuel supplies - obviously without any logistical considerations. Deploying without due consideration of all the factors we've mentioned can actually magnify the problem and put members at risk.


This is the fog of war. When we act without thinking, we increase the fog.


Nothing says that individuals cannot raise their hand and volunteer locally, based on their individual skill sets and local agencies needs and perceptions of risk. To reactively call for CAP to do so without planning/training/equipping, however, is a massively bad idea. See:
https://www.astho.org/Programs/Preparedness/Public-Health-Emergency-Law/Emergency-Volunteer-Toolkit/Volunteers-Liability-and-Liability-Protections-Fact-Sheet/


R/s
Spam

Eclipse

March 18, 2020, 03:04:49 pm #39 Last Edit: March 18, 2020, 05:14:40 pm by Eclipse
^This.

CAP has no DR doctrine, no HAZMAT or BIOHAZ training and PPE is a check box around first aid.

Arguably 50+% of the adult membership is at risk for being seriously ill if infected.

100% of the cadet membership can be carriers without showing symptoms.

This is not a place for CAP to wander into.

Volunteer elsewhere with an agency that's done this before and will hopefully
provide proper training based on experience.