July 04, 2020, 03:25:56 pm

NHQ Needs to release guidance

Started by OldGuy, March 17, 2020, 02:57:36 pm

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OldGuy

For best practices regards virtual meetings, keeping the Cadet Program active and how we can help our local Emergency Management Agencies in this national emergency. Emergency centers are now on alert nationwide, staffed 24X7 and I am positive could use volunteer help. Public Affairs guidance would also be helpful.

jeders

NHQ has released guidance, lots of it. See this thread --> http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=24955.0
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse

OldGuy

Quote from: jeders on March 17, 2020, 03:28:48 pmNHQ has released guidance, lots of it. See this thread --> http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=24955.0
I see nothing about Public Affairs, I see no recommendations on hosting virtual meetings that have meaningful step by step guides, zip, nada, nothing.

NIN

Why don't you come up with some ideas and let us know?

Seriously. Because if NHQ did have concrete ideas and guidance, you'd be telling us that none of that will work in your neck of the woods.

Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
Wing Dude
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
Nothing posted on CAPTalk should be considered policy unless otherwise stated
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2020 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

OldGuy

Quote from: NIN on March 17, 2020, 05:40:14 pmBecause if NHQ did have concrete ideas and guidance, you'd be telling us that none of that will work in your neck of the woods.
Really? How often have I ever said that?

We have the largest opportunity for DR service in history in front of us, and we get told to "stand down" and hear nothing from Wing/Region/NHQ and that is OK?

OldGuy

Quote from: NIN on March 17, 2020, 05:40:14 pmWhy don't you come up with some ideas and let us know?
The other thread has ideas from the field we are implementing. Just an idea Mr. new Wing CC, maybe you or your team (and NHQ and their team) could collate those good ideas, and suggest implementation tools to help? And then publish and distribute that widely. Sounds like an idea you could use, no?

NIN

Quote from: OldGuy on March 17, 2020, 05:42:40 pmand hear nothing from Wing/Region/NHQ and that is OK?

You hearing nothing from Wing/Region/NHQ is not the same as nothing coming from Wing/Region/NHQ.

People are moving as quick as they can to get guidance out to the field. Its an unprecendented situation that changes frequently and really wasn't exactly anticipated in any sort of day to day planning prior to about a week ago.

I'm really sorry that its not quick enough for you.

I can tell you that I've personally spent about 18hrs dealing with all of this since Sunday morning getting folks in my wing redirected, getting people to plan and communicate to the membership, and keeping everybody motivated and positive as we transition to "operations in a restricted environment."

My wing was already gearing up to cancel our conference and modify some upcoming in-person training in accordance with the (at the time) public health guidance when the stand down order came thru. So we had to very quickly swing into a transition to strictly virtual events, and then begin to do things like figure out how to disinfect airplanes so the crews can safely use them, and how to conduct real-world operations that don't substantially increase our risk profiles.

I get that this is all new and very confusing, and a lack of solid guidance or a way forward for some things is causing some stress and anxiety. It sure would help to have all the answers from on high. Trust me, I'd like some of it too. But for the moment there are real people at all echelons scrambling and trying to put together plans, and guidance while at the same time they transition to their own virtual environments and situations. The folks at NHQ basically all moved to "work from home" while this was going on, with the attendant disruptions to workflow that causes.

There are going to be things we're going to need to do in our own lanes and in our own local domains today that will make a difference in how our subordinate leaders and members react and meet our operational challenges. And we should make our plans with the General's published intent in mind as best we can, again locally, and expect that there will be further guidance, training materials, waivers to requirements, etc, that will eventually come out to ease some of that along.

Don't sit there on your hands, waiting for someone from Alabama to tell you what to do and how to do it. Do what you need to do for the people in your unit now. Help your commanders. Help your members. Help your cadets.
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
Wing Dude
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
Nothing posted on CAPTalk should be considered policy unless otherwise stated
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2020 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

OldGuy

Quote from: NIN on March 17, 2020, 06:02:47 pmDon't sit there on your hands, waiting for someone from Alabama to tell you what to do and how to do it. Do what you need to do for the people in your unit now. Help your commanders. Help your members. Help your cadets.
We are not, we are doing as much as we can think of. My point is that the PAO community can and should be tasked with better internal communications.

Thanks for all that you do, please don't take the cries for help as anything other than what they are - a reminder that communications matters. A lot. Especially in the "fog of war" environment we are in.

PHall

Many of the staff at National are having to work from home too.
So yeah, it might take a bit longer.
But there's nothing stopping you from figuring out how to do online meetings.
You can do a lot with some laptops and Skype.

NIN

Quote from: OldGuy on March 17, 2020, 06:06:11 pmThanks for all that you do, please don't take the cries for help as anything other than what they are - a reminder that communications matters. A lot. Especially in the "fog of war" environment we are in.

Thanks. If I'm a little short, its because I was already sick of the words "COVID-19" by last Friday. I snapped at a co-worker yesterday here at work which is very uncharacteristic of me (the look on his face was all I needed to know that I did a boo-boo). My twice-annual sinus pressure and headache decided to visit yesterday and that didn't help matters much, either.

But you're right, communications do matter.

Internally, leaders should be communicating effectively and clearly with the membership at the very least. Thats a key job of a leaders.  But remember, there's a fine line between "setting the tone," "blathering on at length" and "making everybody skittish because you're sending out too many emails."

I've sent out a couple emails to my commanders and staff to get them working in the appropriate directions and give them some intent, and tried to keep the wing-wide "helpful-emails-from-the-wing-commander-that-really-aren't-that-helpful" to a minimum. Rally the troops, let them know that we're working on solutions and ask them to remain flexible. More to follow as we know it.

Externally, there are people who get paid way more than I do and are far more knowledgeable about this sort of thing than I am, and defer to their judgement on it.
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
Wing Dude
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
Nothing posted on CAPTalk should be considered policy unless otherwise stated
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2020 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

JohhnyD

Quote from: PHall on March 17, 2020, 06:20:48 pmMany of the staff at National are having to work from home too.
So yeah, it might take a bit longer.
But there's nothing stopping you from figuring out how to do online meetings.
You can do a lot with some laptops and Skype.
We are testing a number of apps. What would have been nice would have been an email saying, "Here are the approved online meeting apps, and how you can get approval to use others. And here are the step-by-step instructions for either choice."

We are blessed to have a VERY large unit with a LOT of talent and we are able to spin up projects like this from scratch. Other local units are frankly in the dark. Again, we have hear from NHQ with 3 nearly identical emails and once from Wing repeating what NHQ decided. NO practical guidance of any kind yet.

JohhnyD

Quote from: NIN on March 17, 2020, 06:26:56 pmThanks. If I'm a little short, its because I was already sick of the words "COVID-19" by last Friday. I snapped at a co-worker yesterday here at work which is very uncharacteristic of me (the look on his face was all I needed to know that I did a boo-boo). My twice-annual sinus pressure and headache decided to visit yesterday and that didn't help matters much, either.
I get it, I run a directly affected business. We opened our crisis management team a week ago, went to max alter Friday, 100% of my workforce is now working remote. A colleague in Seattle has lost 5 customers already to this virus. It is real and we are all under stress.

Now, that said, we - CAP - are missing the largest opportunity to serve ever. Why? Every Emer Mgmt Center in the US of A has been on alert and working 24x7, we can make a difference, and we do nothing. Frustrating.

Spam

Quote from: OldGuy on March 17, 2020, 05:42:40 pmWe have the largest opportunity for DR service in history in front of us, and we get told to "stand down" and hear nothing from Wing/Region/NHQ and that is OK?

Question for you:
Exactly which ESF do you feel that we should be supporting, which we are not?

If you think #6, or #9 (SAR/DR) I would respectfully and strongly disagree.

If you think #8, then I'd point out that HHS doesn't even list DoD as a supporting agency in their plans, let alone the volunteer auxiliary of the USAF which is not equipped, trained, or exercised in, nor has any cooperative plans to perform such service support. Quote, "Public Health and Medical Services provides the mechanism for coordinated Federal assistance to supplement State, tribal, and local resources in response to a public health and medical disaster, potential or actual incidents requiring a coordinated Federal response, and/or during a developing potential health and medical emergency"

We are not equipped. We are not trained. We have no plans to augment, and are thus not exercised, as a possible Federal volunteer auxiliary for a pandemic viral outbreak.  In ORM risk management terms, the potential cost to our members in trying to provide the "DR service" you propose far, far outweighs any possible dubious benefit gained from our "service" (even supposing that our presence doesn't simply annoy or distract local, state, and federal agencies who need to focus).

I understand your altruistic urge to help, but this isn't your fight, my fight, or my cadets fight.

R/s
Spam

THRAWN

And those EOCs are running remote. What roles should CAP fill?


Quote from: JohhnyD on March 17, 2020, 08:29:38 pm
Quote from: NIN on March 17, 2020, 06:26:56 pmThanks. If I'm a little short, its because I was already sick of the words "COVID-19" by last Friday. I snapped at a co-worker yesterday here at work which is very uncharacteristic of me (the look on his face was all I needed to know that I did a boo-boo). My twice-annual sinus pressure and headache decided to visit yesterday and that didn't help matters much, either.
I get it, I run a directly affected business. We opened our crisis management team a week ago, went to max alter Friday, 100% of my workforce is now working remote. A colleague in Seattle has lost 5 customers already to this virus. It is real and we are all under stress.

Now, that said, we - CAP - are missing the largest opportunity to serve ever. Why? Every Emer Mgmt Center in the US of A has been on alert and working 24x7, we can make a difference, and we do nothing. Frustrating.
Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016

JohhnyD

Quote from: THRAWN on March 17, 2020, 11:32:41 pmAnd those EOCs are running remote. What roles should CAP fill?


Quote from: JohhnyD on March 17, 2020, 08:29:38 pm
Quote from: NIN on March 17, 2020, 06:26:56 pmThanks. If I'm a little short, its because I was already sick of the words "COVID-19" by last Friday. I snapped at a co-worker yesterday here at work which is very uncharacteristic of me (the look on his face was all I needed to know that I did a boo-boo). My twice-annual sinus pressure and headache decided to visit yesterday and that didn't help matters much, either.
I get it, I run a directly affected business. We opened our crisis management team a week ago, went to max alter Friday, 100% of my workforce is now working remote. A colleague in Seattle has lost 5 customers already to this virus. It is real and we are all under stress.

Now, that said, we - CAP - are missing the largest opportunity to serve ever. Why? Every Emer Mgmt Center in the US of A has been on alert and working 24x7, we can make a difference, and we do nothing. Frustrating.
Multiple roles, our local EOC has indicated that, if we can help, they will ask. (They asked for help last week and it got ORMd by NHQ. They do not want to waste time, so if we cannot give them clear guidance, they are instead asking the local volunteer SAR teams for help.)

Eclipse

Quote from: Spam on March 17, 2020, 11:10:06 pmWe are not equipped. We are not trained. We have no plans to augment, and are thus not exercised, as a possible Federal volunteer auxiliary for a pandemic viral outbreak.  In ORM risk management terms, the potential cost to our members in trying to provide the "DR service" you propose far, far outweighs any possible dubious benefit gained from our "service" (even supposing that our presence doesn't simply annoy or distract local, state, and federal agencies who need to focus).

Agree 100% there is ZERO mission opportunity here for CAP, those who think there is don't understand the question.

I've already heard local suggestions about "transport missions" or "well being checks" or "meal delivery",
which just bring it back to my first sentence.

CAP would do well to use this pause to stick every plane in maintenance and have them sitting shiny and ready for when things loosen up, because if they don't, it's irrelevant, but when they do, this Summer is going to be a hot mess.



JohhnyD

Quote from: Eclipse on March 18, 2020, 01:09:30 am
Quote from: Spam on March 17, 2020, 11:10:06 pmWe are not equipped. We are not trained. We have no plans to augment, and are thus not exercised, as a possible Federal volunteer auxiliary for a pandemic viral outbreak.  In ORM risk management terms, the potential cost to our members in trying to provide the "DR service" you propose far, far outweighs any possible dubious benefit gained from our "service" (even supposing that our presence doesn't simply annoy or distract local, state, and federal agencies who need to focus).

Agree 100% there is ZERO mission opportunity here for CAP, those who think there is don't understand the question.
Well our local EOC disagrees. And they are taking on local volunteers. Just not from CAP.

Eclipse

Quote from: JohhnyD on March 18, 2020, 01:11:18 am
Quote from: Eclipse on March 18, 2020, 01:09:30 am
Quote from: Spam on March 17, 2020, 11:10:06 pmWe are not equipped. We are not trained. We have no plans to augment, and are thus not exercised, as a possible Federal volunteer auxiliary for a pandemic viral outbreak.  In ORM risk management terms, the potential cost to our members in trying to provide the "DR service" you propose far, far outweighs any possible dubious benefit gained from our "service" (even supposing that our presence doesn't simply annoy or distract local, state, and federal agencies who need to focus).

Agree 100% there is ZERO mission opportunity here for CAP, those who think there is don't understand the question.
Well our local EOC disagrees. And they are taking on local volunteers. Just not from CAP.

That isn't the same thing and you know it.



JohhnyD

Quote from: Eclipse on March 18, 2020, 01:12:38 am
Quote from: JohhnyD on March 18, 2020, 01:11:18 am
Quote from: Eclipse on March 18, 2020, 01:09:30 am
Quote from: Spam on March 17, 2020, 11:10:06 pmWe are not equipped. We are not trained. We have no plans to augment, and are thus not exercised, as a possible Federal volunteer auxiliary for a pandemic viral outbreak.  In ORM risk management terms, the potential cost to our members in trying to provide the "DR service" you propose far, far outweighs any possible dubious benefit gained from our "service" (even supposing that our presence doesn't simply annoy or distract local, state, and federal agencies who need to focus).

Agree 100% there is ZERO mission opportunity here for CAP, those who think there is don't understand the question.
Well our local EOC disagrees. And they are taking on local volunteers. Just not from CAP.

That isn't the same thing and you know it.
How so? What part of DR is this not fitting? Point of Distribution opportunity, staff opportunities, even basic ICS trained MSAs can be used. How is that NOT something we can help with?

PHall

CAWG has a CAP Corp mission to help the Red Cross distribute school lunches to the students who are receiving them.
So maybe we do do those missions.

Eclipse

Spectacularly bad ideas which I sincerely hope don't wind up showing exactly how bad those are.




JohhnyD

Quote from: PHall on March 18, 2020, 01:25:33 amCAWG has a CAP Corp mission to help the Red Cross distribute school lunches to the students who are receiving them.
So maybe we do do those missions.
A great idea and an example of how we can help.

Eclipse




Lord of the North

Quote from: Eclipse on March 18, 2020, 01:32:44 amSpectacularly bad ideas which I sincerely hope don't wind up showing exactly how bad those are.

Quote from: JohhnyD on March 18, 2020, 02:25:12 am
Quote from: PHall on March 18, 2020, 01:25:33 amCAWG has a CAP Corp mission to help the Red Cross distribute school lunches to the students who are receiving them.
So maybe we do do those missions.
A great idea and an example of how we can help.

There you have the typical CAP discussion in all of it's beauty.   GOOD LUCK ALL

JohhnyD

Quote from: Lord of the North on March 18, 2020, 03:10:09 amThere you have the typical CAP discussion in all of it's beauty.   GOOD LUCK ALL
Yep.

Fester

Quote from: OldGuy on March 17, 2020, 05:42:40 pm
Quote from: NIN on March 17, 2020, 05:40:14 pmBecause if NHQ did have concrete ideas and guidance, you'd be telling us that none of that will work in your neck of the woods.
Really? How often have I ever said that?

We have the largest opportunity for DR service in history in front of us, and we get told to "stand down" and hear nothing from Wing/Region/NHQ and that is OK?

What exactly do you envision us doing in this DR service?
1stLt, CAP
Squadron CC
Group CPO
Eaker - 1996

Fester

Quote from: OldGuy on March 17, 2020, 06:06:11 pm
Quote from: NIN on March 17, 2020, 06:02:47 pmDon't sit there on your hands, waiting for someone from Alabama to tell you what to do and how to do it. Do what you need to do for the people in your unit now. Help your commanders. Help your members. Help your cadets.
We are not, we are doing as much as we can think of. My point is that the PAO community can and should be tasked with better internal communications.

Thanks for all that you do, please don't take the cries for help as anything other than what they are - a reminder that communications matters. A lot. Especially in the "fog of war" environment we are in.

I still don't understand why PAO's feel we need to publicize what we are doing.  Let the people who NEED air time and press (Public Health Officials, Local, State and Federal Government Officials, etc...) Have the air time and press.  We have no need that I can see for us to be trying to get this information public other than on our public facing media.... Websites and Social Media.
1stLt, CAP
Squadron CC
Group CPO
Eaker - 1996

PHall

Quote from: Eclipse on March 18, 2020, 01:32:44 amSpectacularly bad ideas which I sincerely hope don't wind up showing exactly how bad those are.



I'll pass your concerns on to the CAWG Commander, The California OES and the Red Cross.
But the kids who are getting fed may disagree with you.

CAP9907

March 18, 2020, 06:38:03 am #28 Last Edit: March 18, 2020, 06:43:37 am by CAP9907
Quote from: PHall on March 18, 2020, 05:12:54 am
Quote from: Eclipse on March 18, 2020, 01:32:44 amSpectacularly bad ideas which I sincerely hope don't wind up showing exactly how bad those are.



I'll pass your concerns on to the CAWG Commander, The California OES and the Red Cross.
But the kids who are getting fed may disagree with you.

If you'd read through the Unit log for that mission, you'd see exactly why this was and is not a good idea for CAP to be involved in. As an IC and also a MSO, I would have declined this mission for the Wing and  would have been justified in doing so.

~9907
21 yrs of service

Our Members Code of Conduct can be found here:   http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=13.0

JayT

Quote from: JohhnyD on March 17, 2020, 08:29:38 pm
Quote from: NIN on March 17, 2020, 06:26:56 pmThanks. If I'm a little short, its because I was already sick of the words "COVID-19" by last Friday. I snapped at a co-worker yesterday here at work which is very uncharacteristic of me (the look on his face was all I needed to know that I did a boo-boo). My twice-annual sinus pressure and headache decided to visit yesterday and that didn't help matters much, either.
I get it, I run a directly affected business. We opened our crisis management team a week ago, went to max alter Friday, 100% of my workforce is now working remote. A colleague in Seattle has lost 5 customers already to this virus. It is real and we are all under stress.

Now, that said, we - CAP - are missing the largest opportunity to serve ever. Why? Every Emer Mgmt Center in the US of A has been on alert and working 24x7, we can make a difference, and we do nothing. Frustrating.

What function can CAP actually serve in this current crisis? What sort of PPE do you have available? What ID response capability does it have? I am a serving paramedic, and the deputy supervisor for my shop. I am on the very front line of this. What is needed is more PPE, more cleaning supplies, and medical staff. What is NOT needed is civic minded people who will only make it worst by spreading the disease while trying to help. We're even turning away our own volunteer staff unless absolutely necessary. Wanting to serve is one thing. Being able to is different.
"Eagerness and thrill seeking in others' misery is psychologically corrosive, and is also rampant in EMS. It's a natural danger of the job. It will be something to keep under control, something to fight against."

JohhnyD

Quote from: Fester on March 18, 2020, 03:42:28 amMy point is that the PAO community can and should be tasked with better internal communications.

Odd, internal communications seemed to be the point, maybe you misread that word?

JohhnyD

Quote from: JayT on March 18, 2020, 11:50:06 amWhat function can CAP actually serve in this current crisis? 

Airborne transport of critical supplies? Providing remote MSA services? Remote PAO services? All of the local EOCs are working with as many people remote as possible, so no PPE needed.

JohhnyD

Also, Local VAs are doing remote screening with PPE and ORM provided by VA. We could easily help there, no?

THRAWN

Quote from: JohhnyD on March 18, 2020, 01:16:13 pmAlso, Local VAs are doing remote screening with PPE and ORM provided by VA. We could easily help there, no?

No. Show me the CAP regulation that covers training to participate in something like that.
Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016

1st Lt Thompson

You can debate whether or not we can be of use all day long, but the fact of the matter is that any agency that may or may not request our help will have an MOU with CAP, and will request said help through proper channels, at which time an ORM will be conducted to determine if the need is great enough to risk the health and safety of CAP personnel. None of us have the ability to send people to help out where they may or may not be wanted, if they are needed they will follow proper channels to request our assistance.

Until then, send the planes for maintenance, check your gear and replace/repair as needed, read some task guides, study for your Yeager, shine your boots etc etc etc and by all means wash your hands!
1st Lt Matt Thompson
Historian, Assistant PAO

Mitchell - 31 OCT 98 (#44670) Earhart - 1 OCT 00 (#11401)

Spam

Quote from: JohhnyD on March 18, 2020, 01:16:13 pmAlso, Local VAs are doing remote screening with PPE and ORM provided by VA. We could easily help there, no?

Oh, HECK no.

THRAWN

Quote from: JohhnyD on March 18, 2020, 01:15:24 pm
Quote from: JayT on March 18, 2020, 11:50:06 amWhat function can CAP actually serve in this current crisis? 

Airborne transport of critical supplies? Providing remote MSA services? Remote PAO services? All of the local EOCs are working with as many people remote as possible, so no PPE needed.


What supplies? The transportation infrastructure is still intact and running, so using CAP for that isn't even being considered. What remote MSA services? What PAO services? Yes, the EOCs are up and running but if your wing isn't written into your state pandemic response plan, you're not going to the prom. CAP does not have a role here. So no PPE needed.
Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016

THRAWN

Quote from: Spam on March 18, 2020, 01:51:26 pm
Quote from: JohhnyD on March 18, 2020, 01:16:13 pmAlso, Local VAs are doing remote screening with PPE and ORM provided by VA. We could easily help there, no?

Oh, HECK no.

I used a different word, but same end result.
Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016

Spam

I've been participating in, planning, or leading CAP DR exercises and actuals since the early 80s, and it would seem that these debates are running true to form:  members with peripheral (not core planning or leadership experience) act in good faith to call for action. They predictably and reactively make some speculative and wild comments without due consideration of risk, planning, staffing, doctrinal questions, or coordination of how CAP would fit within the overarching response. In some cases (not here on CT, yet), I've seen people who could care less about planning and documentation and meeting the CAP regulations for ops preplans, become the first hotheads to criticize our lack of action.


That's not meant to label anyone on this thread, by any means. Its just an observation that we're seemingly on what I've seen as a natural sequence of debate regarding large scale incident response.


I've come to sincerely appreciate the humane response of my teammates - the desire to help, the desire to do something for those in need - but I've also seen a darker tint where a tiny minority seek to flex their imagined expertise (e.g. out of town "experts" bulling their way into response areas). In a past incident I had NHQ call my unit with earnest intent to order the ancient DoD surplus ambulance (*with all of 7 mpg) on our manifest surged into an area with dwindling fuel supplies - obviously without any logistical considerations. Deploying without due consideration of all the factors we've mentioned can actually magnify the problem and put members at risk.


This is the fog of war. When we act without thinking, we increase the fog.


Nothing says that individuals cannot raise their hand and volunteer locally, based on their individual skill sets and local agencies needs and perceptions of risk. To reactively call for CAP to do so without planning/training/equipping, however, is a massively bad idea. See:
https://www.astho.org/Programs/Preparedness/Public-Health-Emergency-Law/Emergency-Volunteer-Toolkit/Volunteers-Liability-and-Liability-Protections-Fact-Sheet/


R/s
Spam

Eclipse

March 18, 2020, 03:04:49 pm #39 Last Edit: March 18, 2020, 05:14:40 pm by Eclipse
^This.

CAP has no DR doctrine, no HAZMAT or BIOHAZ training and PPE is a check box around first aid.

Arguably 50+% of the adult membership is at risk for being seriously ill if infected.

100% of the cadet membership can be carriers without showing symptoms.

This is not a place for CAP to wander into.

Volunteer elsewhere with an agency that's done this before and will hopefully
provide proper training based on experience.



PHall

CAWG is complying the MOU we have with both the Red Cross and the California Office of Emergency Services.
If we're not going to honor the MOU we enter in to then why are we in the Emergency Services and Disaster Relief business?

Eclipse

Quote from: xyzzy on March 18, 2020, 04:54:27 pmAn opportunity to do something useful with internal communications channels is to alert members that the Red Cross has a serious blood shortage; many blood drives have been cancelled due to the pandemic. More information is at the obvious place, https://www.redcross.org/

These are members who have internet access but don't see the news?



Eclipse

Quote from: PHall on March 18, 2020, 03:57:56 pmCAWG is complying the MOU we have with both the Red Cross and the California Office of Emergency Services.
If we're not going to honor the MOU we enter in to then why are we in the Emergency Services and Disaster Relief business?

Cite please.

If CAWG has a a separate MOU then the National one, fair enough,
but the national one just basically recognizes the existence of both orgs
and had no response commitments to honor.



PHall

The R
Quote from: Eclipse on March 18, 2020, 05:12:41 pm
Quote from: PHall on March 18, 2020, 03:57:56 pmCAWG is complying the MOU we have with both the Red Cross and the California Office of Emergency Services.
If we're not going to honor the MOU we enter in to then why are we in the Emergency Services and Disaster Relief business?

Cite please.

If CAWG has a a separate MOU then the National one, fair enough,
but the national one just basically recognizes the existence of both orgs
and had no response commitments to honor.
Quote from: Eclipse on March 18, 2020, 05:12:41 pm
Quote from: PHall on March 18, 2020, 03:57:56 pmCAWG is complying the MOU we have with both the Red Cross and the California Office of Emergency Services.
If we're not going to honor the MOU we enter in to then why are we in the Emergency Services and Disaster Relief business?

Cite please.

If CAWG has a a separate MOU then the National one, fair enough,
but the national one just basically recognizes the existence of both orgs
and had no response commitments to honor.


The Red Cross called and asked if we could help them. CalOES and the NOC signed off on it.
The Red Cross is involved because LA Unified School District called them asking for help.


etodd

March 18, 2020, 06:03:39 pm #44 Last Edit: March 18, 2020, 06:08:31 pm by etodd
We are being asked to shelter in place and keep social distance. Let the First Responders handle things until they ask us directly. Why are we even considering sending Cadets and Seniors out into the community?    I doubt many parents would let their Cadets participate. And many seniors are busy babysitting kids and grandkids. Stand down and stay home.
MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO - ESO

sUAS MP - sUAS Instructor - sUAS Check Pilot

JayT

Quote from: PHall on March 18, 2020, 05:22:10 pmThe R
Quote from: Eclipse on March 18, 2020, 05:12:41 pm
Quote from: PHall on March 18, 2020, 03:57:56 pmCAWG is complying the MOU we have with both the Red Cross and the California Office of Emergency Services.
If we're not going to honor the MOU we enter in to then why are we in the Emergency Services and Disaster Relief business?

Cite please.

If CAWG has a a separate MOU then the National one, fair enough,
but the national one just basically recognizes the existence of both orgs
and had no response commitments to honor.
Quote from: Eclipse on March 18, 2020, 05:12:41 pm
Quote from: PHall on March 18, 2020, 03:57:56 pmCAWG is complying the MOU we have with both the Red Cross and the California Office of Emergency Services.
If we're not going to honor the MOU we enter in to then why are we in the Emergency Services and Disaster Relief business?

Cite please.

If CAWG has a a separate MOU then the National one, fair enough,
but the national one just basically recognizes the existence of both orgs
and had no response commitments to honor.


The Red Cross called and asked if we could help them. CalOES and the NOC signed off on it.
The Red Cross is involved because LA Unified School District called them asking for help.



What exactly are they doing? Distributing meals?
"Eagerness and thrill seeking in others' misery is psychologically corrosive, and is also rampant in EMS. It's a natural danger of the job. It will be something to keep under control, something to fight against."

Eclipse

Quote from: PHall on March 18, 2020, 05:22:10 pmThe Red Cross called and asked if we could help them. CalOES and the NOC signed off on it.

That's not "honoring an MOU" that's answering the phone, and since when is the NOC involved in DR missions?

Wouldn't this be a C-mission?



NovemberWhiskey

Quote from: Eclipse on March 18, 2020, 08:29:46 pmWouldn't this be a C-mission?

Looks like it, assuming I'm looking at the right mission in WMIRS. For those who have access, it is one of the two currently-open C99 missions for CA.

sardak

Quote from: Eclipse on March 18, 2020, 08:29:46 pm
Quote from: PHall on March 18, 2020, 05:22:10 pmThe Red Cross called and asked if we could help them. CalOES and the NOC signed off on it.

That's not "honoring an MOU" that's answering the phone, and since when is the NOC involved in DR missions?

Wouldn't this be a C-mission?

CAPR 60-3
1-3 (a) "B" missions must have some level of federal interest in order for the mission to be authorized to receive federal insurance coverage. [Otherwise C]
1-5 (a). NOC. The NOC is the single resource for assisting customers in obtaining CAP support, coordinating mission approval and up-channeling reports for both Air Force Assigned Missions and CAP corporate missions.
1-5 (2)(a) The NOC is directly involved in coordinating all types of missions except SAR missions.

PHall

Quote from: JayT on March 18, 2020, 08:10:16 pm
Quote from: PHall on March 18, 2020, 05:22:10 pmThe R
Quote from: Eclipse on March 18, 2020, 05:12:41 pm
Quote from: PHall on March 18, 2020, 03:57:56 pmCAWG is complying the MOU we have with both the Red Cross and the California Office of Emergency Services.
If we're not going to honor the MOU we enter in to then why are we in the Emergency Services and Disaster Relief business?

Cite please.

If CAWG has a a separate MOU then the National one, fair enough,
but the national one just basically recognizes the existence of both orgs
and had no response commitments to honor.
Quote from: Eclipse on March 18, 2020, 05:12:41 pm
Quote from: PHall on March 18, 2020, 03:57:56 pmCAWG is complying the MOU we have with both the Red Cross and the California Office of Emergency Services.
If we're not going to honor the MOU we enter in to then why are we in the Emergency Services and Disaster Relief business?

Cite please.

If CAWG has a a separate MOU then the National one, fair enough,
but the national one just basically recognizes the existence of both orgs
and had no response commitments to honor.


The Red Cross called and asked if we could help them. CalOES and the NOC signed off on it.
The Red Cross is involved because LA Unified School District called them asking for help.



What exactly are they doing? Distributing meals?

Yes. From school district locations.

JohhnyD

We have the ability to handle Point of Distribution, Communications, Blood and Organ transport, Aerial photography, and Red Cross support. It is also likely we will get non-COVID-19 taskings as primary agencies for taskings we can do get overloaded.

So what planning for this taking place?

etodd

Quote from: JohhnyD on March 19, 2020, 12:34:43 amWe have the ability to handle Point of Distribution, Communications, Blood and Organ transport, Aerial photography, and Red Cross support. It is also likely we will get non-COVID-19 taskings as primary agencies for taskings we can do get overloaded.

So what planning for this taking place?


 I doubt many parents would let their Cadets participate. Defeats the purpose of staying home from school. And many seniors are busy babysitting kids and grandkids. I wouldn't expect a big turnout if you try to mobilize. Stay home.
MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO - ESO

sUAS MP - sUAS Instructor - sUAS Check Pilot

JohhnyD

Quote from: etodd on March 19, 2020, 01:08:48 am
Quote from: JohhnyD on March 19, 2020, 12:34:43 amWe have the ability to handle Point of Distribution, Communications, Blood and Organ transport, Aerial photography, and Red Cross support. It is also likely we will get non-COVID-19 taskings as primary agencies for taskings we can do get overloaded.

So what planning for this taking place?


 I doubt many parents would let their Cadets participate. Defeats the purpose of staying home from school. And many seniors are busy babysitting kids and grandkids. I wouldn't expect a big turnout if you try to mobilize. Stay home.
Wow, what a generalization. What a stalwart approach. From the Greatest Generation to this. Sad.

Spam


PHall

But if we were using drones on this mission...

Eclipse




baronet68

Quote from: etodd on March 19, 2020, 01:08:48 amI doubt many parents would let their Cadets participate. Defeats the purpose of staying home from school. And many seniors are busy babysitting kids and grandkids. I wouldn't expect a big turnout if you try to mobilize. Stay home.

Reminds me of my cadet days in the 1980's when we trained in radiological monitoring.  My parents told me I could train all I wanted but, if there ever actually was an exchange of nuclear warheads  :o  , my chances of running around town measuring radiation with by CAP buddies were non-existent.  ::) 
Michael Moore, Maj, CAP
National Recruiting & Retention Manager

SarDragon

We got an update around 1830 - no one under 18, so that excludes most of the cadets who may have signed up. This was a Red Cross/Cal OES decision.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Professor Safety & Emergency Services

Quote from: Eclipse on March 18, 2020, 03:04:49 pm^This.

CAP has no DR doctrine, no HAZMAT or BIOHAZ training and PPE is a check box around first aid.

Arguably 50+% of the adult membership is at risk for being seriously ill if infected.

100% of the cadet membership can be carriers without showing symptoms.

This is not a place for CAP to wander into.

Volunteer elsewhere with an agency that's done this before and will hopefully
provide proper training based on experience.

I would have to agree. We may be able to assist on a local or maybe state level scale, but this has expanded beyond our capabilities and volunteer role. It is however a good lesson and I would hope an AAR is done and we can learn from it.
Always seeking to learn.

JayT

Quote from: JohhnyD on March 19, 2020, 01:35:08 am
Quote from: etodd on March 19, 2020, 01:08:48 am
Quote from: JohhnyD on March 19, 2020, 12:34:43 amWe have the ability to handle Point of Distribution, Communications, Blood and Organ transport, Aerial photography, and Red Cross support. It is also likely we will get non-COVID-19 taskings as primary agencies for taskings we can do get overloaded.

So what planning for this taking place?


 I doubt many parents would let their Cadets participate. Defeats the purpose of staying home from school. And many seniors are busy babysitting kids and grandkids. I wouldn't expect a big turnout if you try to mobilize. Stay home.
Wow, what a generalization. What a stalwart approach. From the Greatest Generation to this. Sad.


Listen, here's a reality check that you need. This isn't a wartime situation where the bulk of the action is overseas, and there's auxiliary tasks that can be preformed at home, safely by volunteers. This is a major public health crisis where thousands of people will die if this country isn't locked down as tight as possible. I am in the New York metro region, and our hospitals are at the breaking point. Non COVID19 patients are dying because there's not enough to go around for them. The ONLY way to prevent that is to not expose yourself and spread it to others. That's the only way we're going to get ahead of this. There's simply no need for the services that CAP can offer in this one, except keep 50K people out of the line of fire.
"Eagerness and thrill seeking in others' misery is psychologically corrosive, and is also rampant in EMS. It's a natural danger of the job. It will be something to keep under control, something to fight against."

NIN



Quote from: baronet68 on March 19, 2020, 03:40:33 amReminds me of my cadet days in the 1980's when we trained in radiological monitoring.  My parents told me I could train all I wanted but, if there ever actually was an exchange of nuclear warheads  :o  , my chances of running around town measuring radiation with by CAP buddies were non-existent.  ::)

I don't think my parents realized that the packed rucksack and bug out bag, and the plans to get out of Dodge in the event of a nuclear exchange didn't involve them.

;)

Man that was a weird time.



Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
Wing Dude
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
Nothing posted on CAPTalk should be considered policy unless otherwise stated
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2020 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

THRAWN

Quote from: NIN on March 19, 2020, 12:59:27 pm
Quote from: baronet68 on March 19, 2020, 03:40:33 amReminds me of my cadet days in the 1980's when we trained in radiological monitoring.  My parents told me I could train all I wanted but, if there ever actually was an exchange of nuclear warheads  :o  , my chances of running around town measuring radiation with by CAP buddies were non-existent.  ::)

I don't think my parents realized that the packed rucksack and bug out bag, and the plans to get out of Dodge in the event of a nuclear exchange didn't involve them.

;)

Man that was a weird time.





Nah, there was a logic and balance to it. Big hair. Big superpowers. Today, it's just chaos and no big hair.
Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016

etodd

Quote from: JayT on March 19, 2020, 11:46:04 am...The ONLY way to prevent that is to not expose yourself and spread it to others. That's the only way we're going to get ahead of this. There's simply no need for the services that CAP can offer in this one, except keep 50K people out of the line of fire.


^^^^ This over and over again.

If anyone is just going nuts wanting to make this about CAP, then while staying inside your home, wear your uniform, and monitor the situation via the internet.
MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO - ESO

sUAS MP - sUAS Instructor - sUAS Check Pilot

Spam

Quote from: JayT on March 19, 2020, 11:46:04 amListen, here's a reality check that you need. This isn't a wartime situation where the bulk of the action is overseas, and there's auxiliary tasks that can be preformed at home, safely by volunteers. This is a major public health crisis where thousands of people will die if this country isn't locked down as tight as possible. I am in the New York metro region, and our hospitals are at the breaking point. Non COVID19 patients are dying because there's not enough to go around for them. The ONLY way to prevent that is to not expose yourself and spread it to others. That's the only way we're going to get ahead of this. There's simply no need for the services that CAP can offer in this one, except keep 50K people out of the line of fire.

Jay, I doubt you or I would be able to puncture the self assurance he has, there. I completely agree, this isn't the fascist/imperialist German/Japanese enemy that my dad signed up to fight in '42, nor yet the communists I came in against in the tail end of the cold war (and am still designing and testing weapon systems against today). He has his vision, though, rooted in the imagined past.


Taking clear stock of the real past, is necessary to avoid missteps in the future. One of the good comments today (from Moving On) was his observation that we hopefully would do a good AAR and learn from these things. I hate to say it, but CAP rarely does a good job on this. Go take a look at the Katrina AAR, if you doubt that, with all the biting commentary preserved for time (including some from folks still around and here on CT):  https://capblog.typepad.com/capblog/2005/12/katrina_the_aar.html


Example:  as much a fan of cadets in ES as I am, I note here we are still taking under 18 cadets into disaster situations... only to experience "Disasterresponsus interruptus"?  We fail to document (generally), we fail to plan, we fail to equip to the mission (versus buying toys), and then we'd rather play than practice. Plus of course we take shots at each other.


Sigh.
- Spam

Spam

Quote from: THRAWN on March 19, 2020, 01:32:26 pm
Quote from: NIN on March 19, 2020, 12:59:27 pm
Quote from: baronet68 on March 19, 2020, 03:40:33 amReminds me of my cadet days in the 1980's when we trained in radiological monitoring.  My parents told me I could train all I wanted but, if there ever actually was an exchange of nuclear warheads  :o  , my chances of running around town measuring radiation with by CAP buddies were non-existent.  ::)

I don't think my parents realized that the packed rucksack and bug out bag, and the plans to get out of Dodge in the event of a nuclear exchange didn't involve them.

;)

Man that was a weird time.





Nah, there was a logic and balance to it. Big hair. Big superpowers. Today, it's just chaos and no big hair.


Well, there is ONE guy with big hair... and chaos (thread drift)!

Did all the rad monitoring and shelter training down here in Atlanta as a cadet; we were told that all the meters and dosimeters and suits, etc. were safely stored in the CD bunker down on Confederate Avenue, in downtown Atlanta. Right under the presumed center of a first strike 2 megaton air burst. Great planning, huh? LOL

Analyze - plan - exercise the plan - be HONEST about the results - adjust the plan, repeat.

V/r
Spam

JayT

Quote from: Spam on March 19, 2020, 01:50:31 pm
Quote from: THRAWN on March 19, 2020, 01:32:26 pm
Quote from: NIN on March 19, 2020, 12:59:27 pm
Quote from: baronet68 on March 19, 2020, 03:40:33 amReminds me of my cadet days in the 1980's when we trained in radiological monitoring.  My parents told me I could train all I wanted but, if there ever actually was an exchange of nuclear warheads  :o  , my chances of running around town measuring radiation with by CAP buddies were non-existent.  ::)

I don't think my parents realized that the packed rucksack and bug out bag, and the plans to get out of Dodge in the event of a nuclear exchange didn't involve them.

;)

Man that was a weird time.





Nah, there was a logic and balance to it. Big hair. Big superpowers. Today, it's just chaos and no big hair.


Well, there is ONE guy with big hair... and chaos (thread drift)!

Did all the rad monitoring and shelter training down here in Atlanta as a cadet; we were told that all the meters and dosimeters and suits, etc. were safely stored in the CD bunker down on Confederate Avenue, in downtown Atlanta. Right under the presumed center of a first strike 2 megaton air burst. Great planning, huh? LOL

Analyze - plan - exercise the plan - be HONEST about the results - adjust the plan, repeat.

V/r
Spam

NYC OEM's bunker on 9/11 was in 7 WTC. It was in operations for about fifteen minutes.
"Eagerness and thrill seeking in others' misery is psychologically corrosive, and is also rampant in EMS. It's a natural danger of the job. It will be something to keep under control, something to fight against."

JayT

Quote from: etodd on March 19, 2020, 01:33:12 pm
Quote from: JayT on March 19, 2020, 11:46:04 am...The ONLY way to prevent that is to not expose yourself and spread it to others. That's the only way we're going to get ahead of this. There's simply no need for the services that CAP can offer in this one, except keep 50K people out of the line of fire.


^^^^ This over and over again.

If anyone is just going nuts wanting to make this about CAP, then while staying inside your home, wear your uniform, and monitor the situation via the internet.

I truly admire peoples desire to help, but this is just not the time or place. If I thought there was a life saving mission to preform, I'd be all about it. But we're already sending our EMS volunteers home until absolutely necessary.
"Eagerness and thrill seeking in others' misery is psychologically corrosive, and is also rampant in EMS. It's a natural danger of the job. It will be something to keep under control, something to fight against."

OldGuy

Found here: https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/programs/cadets/cadet-blog/2020/03/16/coronavirus--keeping-cadets-engaged
-----------------
Posted on 03/16/2020 at 03:06 PM by Curt LaFond

Nearly all in-person cadet operations, worldwide, are on hold for the first time in our 77-year history. During this pause that extends at least until 11 May, the Cadet Program's main goal for itself is to maintain cadets' interest in CAP. When the "all clear" sounds, we want every cadet to return to active status. That challenge will not be easy. Weekly squadron meetings are like a dose of "Air Force blue." Going without that dose for several weeks could be like a slow goodbye to cadet life.

The National Cadet Team, in cooperation with the CAP Command Team, is working hard to accomplish two objectives this week. First, we want to provide squadrons with a practical, recipe-like plan for a 30-minute virtual weekly cadet activity. Second, we want to create reasonable accommodations (and wholesale waivers where necessary) so that cadets can continue ranking-up. Our theory is that a weekly "activity" and an opportunity to promote are essential to sustaining cadets' interests.

Look for guidance along these lines later this week. In the meantime, please use this space in the Cadet Blog to share ideas on how to keep cadets engaged - how to continue their weekly dose of "Air Force blue."
------------------------------------

JayT

"Eagerness and thrill seeking in others' misery is psychologically corrosive, and is also rampant in EMS. It's a natural danger of the job. It will be something to keep under control, something to fight against."

JohhnyD

The dam is bursting, Wing Dos are working with State EOCs for tasking in multiple regions right now. We will be working soon.

The fog of war is real. Thanks to everyone involved!