February 22, 2020, 12:46:58 pm

Professional Development Changing Again

Started by culpeper, January 31, 2020, 02:53:40 pm

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

PHall

Quote from: etodd on February 01, 2020, 01:47:30 amWhat "job" could I do in CAP as a Lt. Col. that I cannot do as a 1st Lt.?  I'm doing quite a bit, as you can see in my Sig.

Required for those who want to be a Wing Commander maybe? IDK

Nothing says that you need to advance beyond Senior Member if you don't want to.
Unless you want to be a Commander of some sort. It's your call.

jjmalott

The new PD, in the end, plans on having both online and onsite.


Jeff Malott, Lt Col, CAP
National eLearning Coordinator

culpeper

In the real world 16 years of education with papers was a minimum requirement for my career entry level.  I don't expect CAP to promote me based on that but I do credit it for actually being able to study CAP material and pass the tests, which are incredibly simple and yet people have difficulty opening a book but have no problem climbing into a plane and be nothing more than a weight and balance problem for somebody else to solve. I blame that partly on lack of related education, which CAP provides in-house and yet people ignore.  So, it is on them and us.

Then there are those with no military experience and it shows because they have no desire for that large part of CAP.  That is what PD is for, so take it, you're paying for it. 

These are the people that show up once in a while, act motivated and then proceed to do nothing.  Seriously, the only good they are doing is paying dues and get added to total membership stats.  Not that there is anything wrong with that? 

But back to the degree thing.  It is still an entry level education to an actual field grade position in the military and if you get passed over for promotion enough you're out.  There is a reason for that and the least a CAP member can do is exhibit a little progress once in a while to show a little respect.  You might learn something.

Larry Mangum

Quote from: NEBoom on January 31, 2020, 06:18:50 pm
Quote from: THRAWN on January 31, 2020, 05:12:52 pm
Quote from: Larry Mangum on January 31, 2020, 04:31:19 pmOnline training is great for those who cannot travel, but not attending courses in-person, takes away a lot of what made those classes valuable.

Funny how the DoD and most colleges seem to find a way to cope...

Larry,
I had thought the same thing, but then I took a degree program from a local University all on-line (which even included group projects).  I didn't know what to expect from it, but while the interaction with my peers was very different from a face-to-face class, it was still effective.

If it is set up so that you take the classes as a cohort with other on-line students, it will work out fine.  If it's strictly self-study format though, then you would be correct that you would lose that interaction.

I for one am looking forward to this.  NSC has been out of reach so this should open a door for me to finally complete L V!

Dan, I also have an on-line degree, through WGU, and while it was a good program, it did not truly provide for the interaction between student's you get in-person. Does it have a place, absolutely, which is why I finished my degree on-line, I just did not have the time to do program, while working full time, and all the other activities, that your normal married adult has.  But if I have the time, I still think any opportunity in which you can train interact face to face with fellow students, beat purely on-line training hands down, at least in most cases.
Larry Mangum, Lt Col CAP
SWR-SWR-001

catrulz

Different people, absorb academic material in various media.  Some people learn better hands on, some people learn better visually, some learn better verbally.  Most people learn best with a combinations of delivery methods. Some people need the classroom peer and instructor feedback, while some find it distracting.

One of the weaknesses of the old system, and possibly the new: they both assume everyone learns in the same way. On the NCO thread next door, there were people that said "I work full time (don't we all, unless your retired), I can't do a full weekend resident class."  I'm going on 32 years with the same tech company, still a few out from retirement, I went to SLS, CLC, TLC, TTT, RSC, NSC, multiple encampments, multiple NCSAs.  I am not saying the complaint about weekends is not valid, but personally, I'm glad I went to the resident courses

One of the issues with RSC and NSC although they were both excellent courses, is the cost to attend.  Training needs to have value, but also needs to be realistic in expectation to attend.  I know a Major in MOWG that just can't afford to attend these courses.  NSC was really expensive, IMHO opinion worth it, but still, training needs to be affordable to the membership.

THRAWN

Quote from: culpeper on February 01, 2020, 03:23:02 pmThere is a reason for that and the least a CAP member can do is exhibit a little progress once in a while to show a little respect. 

No. There is no requirement for it. One of the very best ICs I ever worked with, and this is inside CAP and in the real world of EM since 1994, never "promoted" beyond SM. Respect? He did his job better than anybody. That means a lot more than a bottlecap that means next to nothing.
Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016

THRAWN

Quote from: Larry Mangum on February 03, 2020, 01:49:53 pm
Quote from: NEBoom on January 31, 2020, 06:18:50 pm
Quote from: THRAWN on January 31, 2020, 05:12:52 pm
Quote from: Larry Mangum on January 31, 2020, 04:31:19 pmOnline training is great for those who cannot travel, but not attending courses in-person, takes away a lot of what made those classes valuable.

Funny how the DoD and most colleges seem to find a way to cope...

Larry,
I had thought the same thing, but then I took a degree program from a local University all on-line (which even included group projects).  I didn't know what to expect from it, but while the interaction with my peers was very different from a face-to-face class, it was still effective.

If it is set up so that you take the classes as a cohort with other on-line students, it will work out fine.  If it's strictly self-study format though, then you would be correct that you would lose that interaction.

I for one am looking forward to this.  NSC has been out of reach so this should open a door for me to finally complete L V!

Dan, I also have an on-line degree, through WGU, and while it was a good program, it did not truly provide for the interaction between student's you get in-person. Does it have a place, absolutely, which is why I finished my degree on-line, I just did not have the time to do program, while working full time, and all the other activities, that your normal married adult has.  But if I have the time, I still think any opportunity in which you can train interact face to face with fellow students, beat purely on-line training hands down, at least in most cases.

When did you do the program? When I did SOS it was alone. ACSC had some interaction. NWC had weekly Skype meetings and in addition, a few of use had a study group a couple times per week. There's a lot of technology out there to make use of. In my day job, my unit is made up of people over 5 times zones. We have a lot of interaction....
Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: catrulz on February 03, 2020, 02:57:02 pmOn the NCO thread next door, there were people that said "I work full time (don't we all, unless your retired), I can't do a full weekend resident class."  I'm going on 32 years with the same tech company, still a few out from retirement, I went to SLS, CLC, TLC, TTT, RSC, NSC, multiple encampments, multiple NCSAs.  I am not saying the complaint about weekends is not valid, but personally, I'm glad I went to the resident courses

One of the issues with RSC and NSC although they were both excellent courses, is the cost to attend.  Training needs to have value, but also needs to be realistic in expectation to attend.  I know a Major in MOWG that just can't afford to attend these courses.  NSC was really expensive, IMHO opinion worth it, but still, training needs to be affordable to the membership.


Actually, for a lot of active members, the issue becomes "do I take my week of vacation for Encampment or this RSC course". Most folks don't have much past 2 weeks of PTO in this country, giving up a week for an encampment leaves them 1 week for any family events/illnesses.

Larry Mangum

Quote from: THRAWN on February 03, 2020, 04:05:38 pm
Quote from: Larry Mangum on February 03, 2020, 01:49:53 pm
Quote from: NEBoom on January 31, 2020, 06:18:50 pm
Quote from: THRAWN on January 31, 2020, 05:12:52 pm
Quote from: Larry Mangum on January 31, 2020, 04:31:19 pmOnline training is great for those who cannot travel, but not attending courses in-person, takes away a lot of what made those classes valuable.

Funny how the DoD and most colleges seem to find a way to cope...

Larry,
I had thought the same thing, but then I took a degree program from a local University all on-line (which even included group projects).  I didn't know what to expect from it, but while the interaction with my peers was very different from a face-to-face class, it was still effective.

If it is set up so that you take the classes as a cohort with other on-line students, it will work out fine.  If it's strictly self-study format though, then you would be correct that you would lose that interaction.

I for one am looking forward to this.  NSC has been out of reach so this should open a door for me to finally complete L V!

Dan, I also have an on-line degree, through WGU, and while it was a good program, it did not truly provide for the interaction between student's you get in-person. Does it have a place, absolutely, which is why I finished my degree on-line, I just did not have the time to do program, while working full time, and all the other activities, that your normal married adult has.  But if I have the time, I still think any opportunity in which you can train interact face to face with fellow students, beat purely on-line training hands down, at least in most cases.

When did you do the program? When I did SOS it was alone. ACSC had some interaction. NWC had weekly Skype meetings and in addition, a few of use had a study group a couple times per week. There's a lot of technology out there to make use of. In my day job, my unit is made up of people over 5 times zones. We have a lot of interaction....

I finished a BS in Software Development late last year. I really did not need the degree, but wanted it. I also manage a team of six developer, spread across three locations, that is developing and maintaining Kubernetes in AWS. So I do multiple conference call, both with video and without on a daily basis. But I still spend at a minimum one week a month, traveling between Massachusetts and Alabama, to be in front of the team, and to meet with my counterparts and business owners. Why, because relationships and connections are important, and easier to build in person, then purely on-line. Could I probably do so, sure, but I am not sure, I would be as effective as I am, if I did not make the in-person connections.
Larry Mangum, Lt Col CAP
SWR-SWR-001

culpeper

Yeah, that's the ticket remain a SM in an ICC forever... 

THRAWN

Quote from: culpeper on February 03, 2020, 07:48:50 pmYeah, that's the ticket remain a SM in an ICC forever... 

What's the incentive to "promote"? You can do all the PD you want. You can be a well recognized IC. You can be a well known SME and leader. None of that requires promotions.
Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016

culpeper

What sort of impression does a person like this give a cadet?  That the cadets really don't have to work the program.  And since when do we need a personal incentive to provide an image of leadership without even getting to the part of exhibiting leadership. We can't ask our young leaders to follow the values when selfish is more important than selfless within the ranks of adult members.   

baronet68

Quote from: Майор Хаткевич on February 03, 2020, 04:40:15 pmActually, for a lot of active members, the issue becomes "do I take my week of vacation for Encampment or this RSC course". Most folks don't have much past 2 weeks of PTO in this country, giving up a week for an encampment leaves them 1 week for any family events/illnesses.

This was my problem.  It took about 12 years to complete Level IV because timing, location, and cost of the nearest RSC made it unworkable for me.  Luckily I was finally able to attend RSC this past year when it was (literally) hosted down the street from my house... but it was a couple months too late for the grandfathered promotion to Lt Col.  Hopefully the new Level V requirements won't require another decade for me to complete.
Michael Moore, Maj, CAP
Secret Wing Staff Dude, WAWG

THRAWN

Quote from: culpeper on February 03, 2020, 08:39:21 pmWhat sort of impression does a person like this give a cadet?  That the cadets really don't have to work the program.  And since when do we need a personal incentive to provide an image of leadership without even getting to the part of exhibiting leadership. We can't ask our young leaders to follow the values when selfish is more important than selfless within the ranks of adult members.   

Did you miss this part? "One of the very best ICs I ever worked with, and this is inside CAP and in the real world of EM since 1994, never "promoted" beyond SM. Respect? He did his job better than anybody." Service before self. There is no requirement or incentive other than personal desire to complete or even participate in the SMTP. Leaders are more than what they wear on their collars.
Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016

culpeper

February 03, 2020, 09:46:23 pm #34 Last Edit: February 03, 2020, 10:02:05 pm by culpeper
I hear you, Thrawn.  And you haven't convinced me that this guy is any more important than the local beach bum people admire for a while  and then grow up and move on.  Seriously, he has completed level 1 whether he cares to admit it or not.  Personally, if I told him he was getting butter bars and he told me, no, I wouldn't renew his membership.  I don't care how good he is at one thing and that alone.  What your Wing has is somebody that thinks he is a Nomad but doesn't actually go anywhere and people like you admire that.  This isn't the Bandidos MC.

THRAWN

Quote from: culpeper on February 03, 2020, 09:46:23 pmI hear you, Thrawn.  And you haven't convinced me that this guy is any more important than the local beach bum people admire for a while  and then grow up and move on.  Seriously, he has completed level 1 whether he cares to admit it or not.  Personally, if I told him he was getting butter balls and he told me, no, I wouldn't renew his membership.  I don't care how good he is at one thing and that alone.  What your Wing has is somebody that thinks he is a Nomad but doesn't actually go anywhere and people like you admire that.  This isn't the Bandito MC.

Since your new, I'll educate you on a couple of things:

1. Rank in CAP means nothing. The guy I'm talking about finished his Wilson a decade before I joined. Just because he didn't promote, and didn't have to, doesn't mean that he wasn't active in the program.

2. CAP has 3 missions. The SMTP isn't one of them. Don't want to take the classes? You don't have to. Don't want to advance in "rank"? You don't have to. Still want to put in 60+ hours per week on top of your job supporting the program and being an incident commander, or like etodd spend piles of time and treasure flying
Cadets? Welcome aboard...

3. Burning through the program like you're making the Kessel Run doesn't equal leadership. Mentoring, coaching, getting to know your cadets is much more effective than getting your L3 in 18 months or wondering what you're going to pin to your uni. Take some time and learn the program. Service before self. That includes serving the organization before you start whipping through the Levels with nothing to back it up. Cadets do not care about the SMTP. They care that there is someone there dedicated to and focused on the success of the Cadet Program. That's the mission. Learn the program, learn the missions.

Good luck. 
Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016

culpeper

Now, you sound like your pulling rank and with that a big, Yes, sir.

Mitchell 1969

Quote from: culpeper on February 03, 2020, 09:46:23 pmPersonally, if I told him he was getting butter bars and he told me, no, I wouldn't renew his membership. 

<<SNIP>>

 This isn't the Bandidos MC.


I'll betcha a buck you would NOT do that, fail to let him renew. Because, as you pointed out, this isn't the Bandidos MC.

You don't have ultimate membership power over members based on your personal standards. We have personnel regulations, membership committees and higher levels of command specifically so that individuals don't just "wing it."

Your unilateral decision to not renew a productive member has no basis in regulations. You might want to reconsider your personnel practices, and soon.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.

culpeper

February 04, 2020, 02:10:20 pm #38 Last Edit: February 04, 2020, 02:36:41 pm by culpeper
Major, you know people are rarely expelled for the most obvious reason.  And all those internal controls are there for exactly that.  And I'm not referring to a productive member. 

catrulz

The part of PDTP that really needs updating is the specialty track portion.