Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)

Started by PHall, January 14, 2020, 07:00:28 pm

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Eclipse

Adding warrants just breaks things more.

The stated goal was to recruit military NCOs who would then retain their grade
as CAP members, and be able to promote internally irregardless of whether they
promote in the military, not redo the whole system.



shuman14

Quote from: arajca on January 31, 2020, 02:37:12 amSomething like this, perhaps?FO chart.pdf

Yes, but with all the Staff (S-1/G-1 Adjutant, S-2/G-2 Intelligence/Weather Officer, S-3/G-3 Operations Officer, etc.) and Special Staff (Group Chaplain, Region Judge Advocate, Wing Medical Officer/Surgeon, etc.) positions having appointed Rank too.

As to the actual Rank Titles, what would you do with the existing 18-21 year old Flight Officer Grades? Discontinue them? Otherwise you would have some confusion there.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP (National Patron) 2013 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

shuman14

Quote from: Eclipse on January 31, 2020, 02:40:26 amAdding warrants just breaks things more.

The stated goal was to recruit military NCOs who would then retain their grade
as CAP members, and be able to promote internally irregardless of whether they
promote in the military, not redo the whole system.

Maybe the redo IS what is needed. Just saying.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP (National Patron) 2013 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

arajca

Quote from: shuman14 on January 31, 2020, 03:05:04 am
Quote from: arajca on January 31, 2020, 02:37:12 amSomething like this, perhaps?FO chart.pdf

Yes, but with all the Staff (S-1/G-1 Adjutant, S-2/G-2 Intelligence/Weather Officer, S-3/G-3 Operations Officer, etc.) and Special Staff (Group Chaplain, Region Judge Advocate, Wing Medical Officer/Surgeon, etc.) positions having appointed Rank too.

They are staff officers are they not. Staff Officers are addressed in the chart. S-#/G-# are not used in CAP.

QuoteAs to the actual Rank Titles, what would you do with the existing 18-21 year old Flight Officer Grades? Discontinue them? Otherwise you would have some confusion there.
Let them progress in the new system.

PHall

Why are you guys using Marine Corps Warrant Officer insignia?
Why not use Navy Warrant Officer insignia. It's the same as the Air Force used to use.

Fester

Quote from: catrulz on January 30, 2020, 01:23:07 pmI'm going to take this a step further.  So I'm ready to get flamed by the masses.

I would suggest changing Sr. Mbr progression from:

Sr. Member - SRA after completing Level 1, CPP (Former officers and NCOs appoined under current guidelines).

The Senior Member would then have to choose Officer or Enlisted Track

Officer:

2d Lt  after 1 year as a SRA, Technician Specialty Track Rating, Sr Mbr Officer School (Resident Weekend Course), demonstrates the willingness to an active contributor in squadron activities.

*Since the time in grade requirement is 1.5 years from 2LT to 1LT, make both SLS and CLC a requirement for 1LT, but the SLS course may be completed at anytime after Level is completed.

NCO:

SSGT after 1 year as a SRA, Technician Specialty Track Rating, Sr Mbr NCO School (Resident 2 Weekend Course), demonstrates the willingness to an active contributor in squadron activities.

One of our current problems is we promote people for just showing up.  We don't want to SM Smitty, because he has 2 cadets in the unit, so after 6 months, completing Level I that they many times do not even digest properly, make them an officer.  And then we wonder why all they do is sit in a corner and complain about how their kids are treated unfairly.

I'm not a fan of ANYTHING that requires an in-resident week-long or even weekend course.  Not all of us are retired or self-employeed with no time constraints.  Is my knowledge and existence not of value if I can't take a weekend off?

I think not.
1stLt, CAP
Squadron CC
Group CPO
Eaker - 1996

Fester

Quote from: shuman14 on January 31, 2020, 01:48:03 amPerhaps as someone recommended long ago that the answer to all the "Rank" nonsense is to follow the USCG Auxiliary model and only have appointed Rank for personnel in actual Leadership or Staff positions.

Someone also suggested that Warrant Officer Insignia be used to represent the CAP Senior Development Level completed as the USAF no longer has any active Warrant Officers, this would eliminate the CAP Officer/USAF Officer confusion.

So continue the limited used Flight Officer Ranks, discontinue NCO Grades, discontinue Former Officer appointments and a Senior Member's Level 1 through Level 5 would represented by Warrant Officer One through Chief Warrant Officer Five Insignia.



I would also suggest using the USMC Insignia (above), as it would be completely distinctive from any USAF Insignia and would harken back to the Maroon Epaulets on the old Air Corps "Pinks and Greens" uniform and the Maroon Shoulder Slides (aka Berry Boards) replaced by the current Grey slides.

Any other Rank, Second Lieutenant through Major General, would be an appointed Rank and would only be worn when a Member held a Leadership or Staff position at Squadron, Group, Wing or National level.

Once your time in the position is done, you take off your appointed Rank Insignia and revert back to your Development Level Warrant Officer Grade.

I fail to see any value this would bring.
1stLt, CAP
Squadron CC
Group CPO
Eaker - 1996

THRAWN

Quote from: shuman14 on January 31, 2020, 01:48:03 amPerhaps as someone recommended long ago that the answer to all the "Rank" nonsense is to follow the USCG Auxiliary model and only have appointed Rank for personnel in actual Leadership or Staff positions.

That was me. And as a former Warrant Officer, nix that whole latter part of your post.
Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: PHall on January 30, 2020, 06:06:19 pmYou know, all military NCO's are not the same. The training and experience of an Army NCO is very different from an Air Force NCO. The difference is the jobs they do.
Army NCOs usually lead/supervise more troops because they're leading an Infantry Squad/Platoon/Company.
Units that have a lot of troops to lead.
Air Force NCOs are technicians who until they become a Senior NCO, rarely Supervise more then a half dozen Airmen and are usually working in an shop or an office. And the last time they had to drill was in Tech School.
NCOs are not a magic touch that will fix everything.

And in most cases, CAP officers are technicians, not command staff or support directors.

That's not to say they're not "leaders," but they're not leaders in the sense of a duty assignment in many instances. You can lead a staff or operational team, but that isn't exactly tied in with a grade per se.

This is where training differs from line operations; and at its very core, the Cadet Program is a training/development course. It's intrinsic purpose is to constantly develop leaders. It's a very dynamic operational training arena that has some technical association but not in its bulk. With the varying degree and style of activities used to support cadet development, some units may go a more technical training route than others, and some go very heavy on the practical leadership application side (e.g., scenario-based training). As a training cadre, the role of those NCOs may differ significantly: Do I want a technician to teach 'this' subject, or a field operator?

If we conduct an aerospace lab, and we're drying drones, maybe I'd rather have that technician--but that can be an officer or an NCO (if comparing it to a military/Air Force sense). If we conduct field training, and are managing squad- and platoon-sized groups of trainees, maybe I want a greater leadership emphasis and less technical expertise. I think both are important depending on the circumstance and the environment of the training being conducted.

Now, does it need to be an NCO? Let's keep in mind that this is a title; and identifier. Officers and NCOs differ based on their level of responsibility, where they fall in the organizational structure, their defined role, and their training background.

In CAP, what we seem to do, is throw them into the same duties and call them the same thing, but use different insignia. Tell me the difference between a prior enlisted Army E-7 who is a CAP Master Sergeant Leadership Officer and a prior enlisted Army E-7 is a CAP Captain Leadership Officer. It's the exact same role, same background before CAP, same progression in CAP, different insignia, and acting like one has more to offer to the unit than the other which is inherently untrue. Now an Army E-7 who becomes a CAP Master Sergeant Leadership Officer is very different from an Army O-3 who becomes a CAP Captain Leadership Officer. Those are totally different past experiences and ways of looking at the "big picture" of training, to include execution.

In a perfect world, as a Commander, I would love to have that E-7 as my Squadron NCO who has that practical experience as a senior military NCO to help me hold the unit together and keep me in line/on-track. I'd like to have a Leadership Officer who has officer-level training experience and a Leadership NCO who has NCO-level training experience. These people can be taught; they can be built never having served in the military. It just takes a lot longer and lot more experience to get there. At the unit level, I don't have that time. I need to important someone in who can have a little room for adjustment but ready to take it on. This is the debacle that we all face from the command route.

But this may not be the case for the technical route (say, Communications or Logistics/Supply).

This is an extremely complex subject that I don't think we have solid answers for. I see the ease of dropping the NCO grades because we can just call everyone officers. That doesn't really address the training and experience aspect--and we'll probably always have that being a volunteer group.

Eclipse

January 31, 2020, 04:02:01 pm #69 Last Edit: January 31, 2020, 04:07:09 pm by Eclipse
What if...and just spitballing here...people joined CAP, completed internal training
>or< "proficiency-ed out" via (the same) objective tests, and were promoted based >purely<
on their demonstrated objective abilities?

Want to be the FM?  No one cares you say you're a CPA - take this test.

Want to be a small-squad leader?  First point to the small squad you will lead. Cadets?
You won't be leading them, you'll be training them like everyone else.
But you say you were an NCO in the military?  Interesting. Did your job involve motivating
12 year old volunteers 1 night a month? No? It was manning a radar station at Elmendorf
with 3 other people the same age? OK, take this class and pass this test.

This way everyone has the same relative internal experiences in regards to
training and testing, nothing is handed to anyone, and these conversations are moot.

I know, crazy.



shuman14

Quote from: PHall on January 31, 2020, 05:42:44 amWhy are you guys using Marine Corps Warrant Officer insignia?
Why not use Navy Warrant Officer insignia. It's the same as the Air Force used to use.

Actually the Navy uses a royal Blue Color and the USAF used a Sky Blue Color.

As I explained further up in the thread, No one will confuse a CAP Warrant Officer for a USAF Officer.

I chose the USMC Red Color to harken back to the maroon epaulets on the original CAP Uniforms when the Army Air Corps "Pinks and Greens" uniform was used and to the maroon shoulder slides (aka Berry Boards). That and they are readily available off the shelf.

To start using USAF Warrant Rank insignia or create our own (perhaps with GREY squares and lines) would require design, production and a new contract with Vanguard to produce them as opposed to the various venders that already produce USMC insignia.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP (National Patron) 2013 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

shuman14

Quote from: THRAWN on January 31, 2020, 12:00:25 pm
Quote from: shuman14 on January 31, 2020, 01:48:03 amPerhaps as someone recommended long ago that the answer to all the "Rank" nonsense is to follow the USCG Auxiliary model and only have appointed Rank for personnel in actual Leadership or Staff positions.

That was me. And as a former Warrant Officer, nix that whole latter part of your post.


I couldn't remember who it was, thank you for reminding me.

Which part do you not like?
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP (National Patron) 2013 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

PHall

Quote from: shuman14 on January 31, 2020, 10:44:45 pm
Quote from: PHall on January 31, 2020, 05:42:44 amWhy are you guys using Marine Corps Warrant Officer insignia?
Why not use Navy Warrant Officer insignia. It's the same as the Air Force used to use.

Actually the Navy uses a royal Blue Color and the USAF used a Sky Blue Color.

As I explained further up in the thread, No one will confuse a CAP Warrant Officer for a USAF Officer.

Considering that The Air Force has not had a Warrant Officer in over 25 years, I don't think that would be a problem.

bd5av8r

Simple: Eliminate rank, put people in Polos and grey slacks.

Now everyone is equal and won't have authority and rank to get all wound up over. Let alone uniforms. :D lol

That may even "cure" some of the toxic leadership issues I see talked about from time to time.
Greetings from SC!

Holding Pattern

Quote from: bd5av8r on February 17, 2020, 06:06:53 pmSimple: Eliminate rank, put people in Polos and grey slacks.

Now everyone is equal and won't have authority and rank to get all wound up over. Let alone uniforms. :D lol

That may even "cure" some of the toxic leadership issues I see talked about from time to time.

The simple solution for those that want to do away with rank is to join the Scouts or CERT or both. If you want to further divest CAP away from the USAF, perhaps the solution for those people is to join an org that already is divested.

There are ways of making the NCO and officer program work together and complementary. The current method is IMO poorly executed, but that is no reason to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

CAP9907

Quote from: bd5av8r on February 17, 2020, 06:06:53 pmSimple: Eliminate rank, put people in Polos and grey slacks.


I think that many Seniors have adopted this path by default. I do own the minimum SM 'uniform' that's required, but wear it maybe once a year. Polo works for my day to day activities. YMMV of course.

~9907
21 yrs of service

Our Members Code of Conduct can be found here:   http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=13.0

Fubar

Quote from: CAP9907 on February 17, 2020, 07:27:53 pmI think that many Seniors have adopted this path by default. I do own the minimum SM 'uniform' that's required, but wear it maybe once a year. Polo works for my day to day activities. YMMV of course.
~9907

All the uniform drama is so silly that I too used to think we should just do away with them, but I've come to the same conclusion you have. The membership has voted through what they wear and the polo shirt has won by a landslide.

It used to be argued that the polo wearing folks aren't doing anything to detract from the missions being completed, just leave them alone. Now, the inverse can be said.

Eclipse

Quote from: Fubar on February 17, 2020, 08:12:23 pmThe membership has voted through what they wear and the polo shirt has won by a landslide.

Maybe in your AOR, but that's not even remotely true nationally.



etodd

Quote from: Eclipse on February 17, 2020, 08:18:26 pm
Quote from: Fubar on February 17, 2020, 08:12:23 pmThe membership has voted through what they wear and the polo shirt has won by a landslide.

Maybe in your AOR, but that's not even remotely true nationally.

Wing differences for sure.  For seniors its mostly polo in my area.
MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO - ESO

sUAS MP - sUAS Instructor - sUAS Check Pilot

jeders

Quote from: bd5av8r on February 17, 2020, 06:06:53 pmSimple: Eliminate rank, put people in Polos and grey slacks.

Now everyone is equal and won't have authority and rank to get all wound up over. Let alone uniforms. :D lol

That may even "cure" some of the toxic leadership issues I see talked about from time to time.

Some of the worst and most toxic leaders have been solely polo wearers; so were some of the best. Changing the uniform won't fix bad leaders.
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse