Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)

Started by PHall, January 14, 2020, 07:00:28 pm

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NovemberWhiskey

Quote from: PHall on January 15, 2020, 11:11:24 pm
Encampment is not Emergency Services and does not use the ICS system. It's an artificial Leadership Laboratory environment.


It's still a CAP activity, and we're an organization where positional authority is (generally speaking) unrelated to grade within senior membership; and even (to a lesser extent) in the cadet program.

etodd

Quote from: NovemberWhiskey on January 15, 2020, 11:25:58 pm

... we're an organization where positional authority is (generally speaking) unrelated to grade within senior membership ....



Especially when you are short handed and have to ask members to wear multiple hats. LOL
MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO - ESO

sUAS MP - sUAS Instructor - sUAS Check Pilot

SARDOC

Quote from: JayT on January 15, 2020, 08:49:43 pmWell, in most organizations, qualification and rank are tied together. A firefighter lieutenant WILL be in charge of a firefighter in almost every situation. CAP is unique in that regard.


I think the key here is "almost" every situation.  Being a retired career firefighter/Paramedic (not an Officer) It really is about position and qualifications.  I've worked for Fire Captains and Lieutenants...when we responded to EMS calls (Almost 80%) of what we did.  I was in charge of all patient care response and activities.  They worked for me and I'd delegate tasks to them as needed. 

When I was the Acting EMS Supervisor, all on duty Fire Personnel including Battalion Chiefs and such all worked as my subordinates on all calls involving patient care.

Then when the call was over the dynamics shifted....and then I'd ask if I could take the next shift off.  Because those are the roles.  I think the modern fire service is probably the most adept to understanding positional/situational leadership and responsibilities...just because they've been doing it for so long.

rltw2017

Quote from: SARDOC on January 21, 2020, 05:45:19 pm
Quote from: JayT on January 15, 2020, 08:49:43 pmWell, in most organizations, qualification and rank are tied together. A firefighter lieutenant WILL be in charge of a firefighter in almost every situation. CAP is unique in that regard.


I think the key here is "almost" every situation.  Being a retired career firefighter/Paramedic (not an Officer) It really is about position and qualifications.  I've worked for Fire Captains and Lieutenants...when we responded to EMS calls (Almost 80%) of what we did.  I was in charge of all patient care response and activities.  They worked for me and I'd delegate tasks to them as needed. 

When I was the Acting EMS Supervisor, all on duty Fire Personnel including Battalion Chiefs and such all worked as my subordinates on all calls involving patient care.

Then when the call was over the dynamics shifted....and then I'd ask if I could take the next shift off.  Because those are the roles.  I think the modern fire service is probably the most adept to understanding positional/situational leadership and responsibilities...just because they've been doing it for so long.


I mean this concept isn't foreign in a military context either. I was my company's master breacher, so I was the one who had to sign off on requests for demo for both training and operational needs. I was the one who certified guys to breach, construct charges, etc. It didn't matter if you were a cherry or the first sergeant, if I didn't think you could safely be a part of a breach then you weren't going to be able to do it. Of course outside of breaching stuff, the 1SG and CO were still the boss, but for breaching stuff the buck stopped with me and no one else.
TSgt, CAP
SSG, INARNG
Former 3/75 Ranger Battalion
Why won't my back stop hurting.

catrulz

As commented in the past, CAP seniors but mainly Cadets, unfortunately never learn the value of the NCO corps.  The lack of values toward NCOs is embedded in CAP's culture.  Although, I will say I have seen a lot of improvement since 1999.

I don't know how many units I have visited, and activities attended, where Senior Cadet NCOs are standing in ranks and Cadet officer do everything!  I can't help but  believe if there was a flourishing Sr Mbr NCO program, cadets might mimmick what the see.  In order for this to occur, there needs to be a shift in that culture, and what I see here, were not close to achieving that yet. 

Spam

Catrulz, that's a good observation.


I had a C/Captain, back around 1994 or so, who persisted in drilling the flights at every chance, to the frustration and neglect of her C/SNCOs. Despite repeated counseling, I finally called her into a BOR and showed her C/MSGT stripes and asked her when she wanted her demotion to take effect, because she was repeatedly demonstrating her lack of motivation to transition to be a junior officer, let alone advance to field grade.


Once she figured out that I was serious about the demotion, she backed off and started learning indirect leadership. I told her to start identifying the hills for her troops to attack, and letting her NCOs lead the troops in the assaults.


Again, good observation. I'm not sure that a SM NCO Corps is the answer, but I've seen the problem over the same span, and it is somewhat improved (I credit the institution of TLCs and better cadet training pubs, actually).

V/r
Spam


Modification: I observed a few years ago, that every C/Officer in CAP is a Mustang (up from the ranks). If we incorporated a discrete emphasis on shedding the NCO role and assuming indirect Officership as part of the Mitchell transition, I think it would bear even more fruit.




Fubar

Quote from: Spam on January 27, 2020, 03:33:55 pmModification: I observed a few years ago, that every C/Officer in CAP is a Mustang (up from the ranks). If we incorporated a discrete emphasis on shedding the NCO role and assuming indirect Officership as part of the Mitchell transition, I think it would bear even more fruit.


This is way more important than having senior member NCOs in a unit. How can cadets learn any observable relationship dynamics from senior member NCOs and Officers when there is no measurable difference between how NCOs and Officers perform their volunteer duties?

Having cadets intentionally remain C/CMSgts because they don't want to make that jump to officer is also an issue, especially if they have a diamond on their insignia.

catrulz

January 27, 2020, 07:24:05 pm #27 Last Edit: January 27, 2020, 07:32:46 pm by catrulz
Cadet enlisted do not like to salute cadet officers, and do not like to use the 'sir' 'ma'am' honorific.  Cadets also do not like taking orders from other cadets, regardless of grades/positions orders are passed between.  Many cadet officers do not respect their NCOs or allow them any authority.  When I was a DCC I always impressed that a lawful order from any cadet leader (position) should be treated as if it came from me, unless the order posed a moral or safety dilemma.  But I balanced this by making cadets use the Chain of Command both up and down.  Cadet NCOs were responsible for direct leadership, cadet offices handled organizational leadership.  I would often get the officers to think about their orders to get them to self determine if they sis the NCOs job.

Unfortunately, there is not a Sr Mbr model to follow.  I beg to differ, in the opinion that if cadets witnessed a Sr Mbr NCO ALWAYS saluting the officers in the unit, and always saying sir or ma'am, that that would not have a positive impression on the cadets.  If a cadet officer could stand to take advice on matters from a Sr Mbr NCO this would also change, possible only slightly, the value of NCOs.

I have know people that wouldn't join CAP simply because they weren't going to get some rank.  Yeah, Sr. Mbrs regardless of grade need to watch their conduct around cadets.  Believe it or not many of the things they do are learned by example, good or bad!

Edited for clarity.

jeders

Quote from: catrulz on January 27, 2020, 07:24:05 pm
Cadet enlisted do not like to salute cadet officers, and do not like to use the 'sir' 'ma'am' honorific.  Cadets also do not like taking orders from other cadets, regardless of grades/positions orders are passed between.  Many cadet officers do not respect their NCOs or allow them any authority. 


Maybe in your corner of the world, but I've never seen that as a widespread issue. Usually, when it is an issue, it's because of poor mentorship from above.
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse

SarDragon

All through my first thirty years in CAP, I was associated with cadet and composite squadrons, in three wings and two countries. The proprieties were always observed - particularly salutes and Sir/Ma'am. First names were actively discouraged.

If this is not happening in your unit, there's a leadership problem.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Holding Pattern

Quote from: SarDragon on January 27, 2020, 10:35:10 pm
All through my first thirty years in CAP, I was associated with cadet and composite squadrons, in three wings and two countries. The proprieties were always observed - particularly salutes and Sir/Ma'am. First names were actively discouraged.

If this is not happening in your unit, there's a leadership problem.


It's all fun and games until you have 4 cadets with the same last name and grade.

SarDragon

Had twins in my unit in Japan. We added first initials when referring to them.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Fester

Quote from: catrulz on January 27, 2020, 07:24:05 pm
Cadet enlisted do not like to salute cadet officers, and do not like to use the 'sir' 'ma'am' honorific.  Cadets also do not like taking orders from other cadets, regardless of grades/positions orders are passed between.  Many cadet officers do not respect their NCOs or allow them any authority.  When I was a DCC I always impressed that a lawful order from any cadet leader (position) should be treated as if it came from me, unless the order posed a moral or safety dilemma.  But I balanced this by making cadets use the Chain of Command both up and down.  Cadet NCOs were responsible for direct leadership, cadet offices handled organizational leadership.  I would often get the officers to think about their orders to get them to self determine if they sis the NCOs job.

Unfortunately, there is not a Sr Mbr model to follow.  I beg to differ, in the opinion that if cadets witnessed a Sr Mbr NCO ALWAYS saluting the officers in the unit, and always saying sir or ma'am, that that would not have a positive impression on the cadets.  If a cadet officer could stand to take advice on matters from a Sr Mbr NCO this would also change, possible only slightly, the value of NCOs.

I have know people that wouldn't join CAP simply because they weren't going to get some rank.  Yeah, Sr. Mbrs regardless of grade need to watch their conduct around cadets.  Believe it or not many of the things they do are learned by example, good or bad!

Edited for clarity.


I think this is a symptom of poor leadership at your unit.  I've been in 4 units in 3 wings.  I have never seen this tolerated.
1stLt, CAP
Squadron CC
Group CPO
Eaker - 1996

catrulz

Okay, first of all this was not a problem in my unit.

But these situations do occur in every unit.  The key nipping these situations in bud, before they ferment and cause larger problems.  Once again, if you read my last post completely and thoroughly and not just the first couple of sentences, just as attitudes are contagious, so is example.

Having NCOs in units would re-inforce the customs and courtesies that we require them to practice.

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: catrulz on January 28, 2020, 01:54:49 pm
Okay, first of all this was not a problem in my unit.

But these situations do occur in every unit.  The key nipping these situations in bud, before they ferment and cause larger problems.  Once again, if you read my last post completely and thoroughly and not just the first couple of sentences, just as attitudes are contagious, so is example.

Having NCOs in units would re-inforce the customs and courtesies that we require them to practice.



Never had any actively engaged SM NCOs, and yet the cadets knew their Customs and Courtesies.  ???

abdsp51

Catzrulz, 

I don't know your background, but I can tell you that in every unit or function I have attended since I rejoined CAP what you described has never been an issue. 

CAP has flourished for years without NCOs and will continue to do so with the limited number of them.

So I'll ask you the same thing that's been posed and has hardly ever been answered.

What can CAP NCOs do that is not already being done?

What is the ultimate goal of having CAP NCOs?


PHall

Catzrulz, the CAP NCO "Program" is a solution looking for a problem to solve.

Jester

Every time this pops up, I've learned to roll my eyes at the amount of people who are so overly concerned with how I and folks like me contribute to this organization, then move on to continue contributing to the organization.


Holding Pattern

Quote from: Jester on January 28, 2020, 07:29:24 pm
Every time this pops up, I've learned to roll my eyes at the amount of people who are so overly concerned with how I and folks like me contribute to this organization, then move on to continue contributing to the organization.


Here is a question: When can non-prior service folks enter the NCO program? There is a lot of interest on my part among other reasons because I want access to the PME on the enlisted side.

MSG Mac

The NCO program started out with great expectations. Problem is that there was NO follow up. We were told to expect an NCO program by Christmas, we never told which year. We were told at the beginning that NCO's would get a one grade bump-didn't happen.

A good start would have been to contact all known former NCO's to inform them about the CAP NCO program-not done.

A training plan and manning table. Still waiting for the plan. Manning tables just released. Still waiting for the NCO program.

Costs: New enlisted service coat. $180, Flight Cap $10, Grade insignia $15-18 times the number of shirts, jackets, etc they need to be sewn on (not to mention the cost of sewing them on).

National HQ has to get serious about the NCO program or admit that it was a dream of MG Carr and was left to die on a natural death by attrition.




Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
50 Year Member