Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)

Started by PHall, January 14, 2020, 07:00:28 pm

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PHall

(NOTE: This part of the "Perfection versus progress" topic was split off into its own thread to facilitate further discussion on the subject of NCOs. Thread my seem a little discombobulated due to the split.  Its my first time splitting a thread on CAP-Talk!  -NIN)


Quote from: rltw2017 on January 14, 2020, 06:34:10 pm
Quote from: Eclipse on January 14, 2020, 04:24:57 pm
Quote from: JohhnyD on January 14, 2020, 06:01:09 am
Some Wing PAO types are taking control of local social media. Not regulation, but it is happening. So much for local squadron control!


Those "Wing PAO types" are volunteers like everyone else, inconsistently trained, mixed experience,
possibly taking the role on as a 5th job when they originally joined to fly or GSAR or something.

I'm the first person to call out higher HQs, especially NHQ, for shenanigans, 1/2-baked "iders", and errors
of both omission and commission, but at some point it's on you and the local CC if people vertical or horizontal are
directing actions that cause you angst.

The first time it's an anomaly, and you take the actions to correct understanding.  The second time you
have to start making decisions as to whether it's you that needs correcting, and by the third time
you need to either draw the line or disengage, but just sitting back and wearing it as histrionics
isn't going to help or fix anything, and its especially unhealthy for the respective member.

I've had more then a few occasions where I realized that things would not change, so I needed to
bid the activity, unit, or the organization as a whole, adieu.  In some cases, reality set in and my
phone rang, in others, all parties moved on.  Angst was left (mostly) at the door.

It's both amusing and disappointing when people think that an organization like CAP is going to
be somehow immune to the same foibles, politics, and frailties that every other PTA, condo board,
local council, FD, LEA, the military, and corporate organizations are subject to.


A lot of problems, this one included, could be solved with a CC that is willing to put his/her tail on the line for their people. Leaders are supposed to serve their subordinates, not their superiors.


So when do you plan to trade your stripes for bars and become a CC so you can show us how it's supposed to be done?

Eclipse

Quote from: PHall on January 14, 2020, 07:00:28 pm
So when do you plan to trade your stripes for bars and become a CC so you can show us how it's supposed to be done?


Flat Tire Axiom #3.

Or is it impossible for NCOs to understand what makes a good leader without raising your own hand?



rltw2017

Quote from: PHall on January 14, 2020, 07:00:28 pm
Quote from: rltw2017 on January 14, 2020, 06:34:10 pm
Quote from: Eclipse on January 14, 2020, 04:24:57 pm
Quote from: JohhnyD on January 14, 2020, 06:01:09 am
Some Wing PAO types are taking control of local social media. Not regulation, but it is happening. So much for local squadron control!


Those "Wing PAO types" are volunteers like everyone else, inconsistently trained, mixed experience,
possibly taking the role on as a 5th job when they originally joined to fly or GSAR or something.

I'm the first person to call out higher HQs, especially NHQ, for shenanigans, 1/2-baked "iders", and errors
of both omission and commission, but at some point it's on you and the local CC if people vertical or horizontal are
directing actions that cause you angst.

The first time it's an anomaly, and you take the actions to correct understanding.  The second time you
have to start making decisions as to whether it's you that needs correcting, and by the third time
you need to either draw the line or disengage, but just sitting back and wearing it as histrionics
isn't going to help or fix anything, and its especially unhealthy for the respective member.

I've had more then a few occasions where I realized that things would not change, so I needed to
bid the activity, unit, or the organization as a whole, adieu.  In some cases, reality set in and my
phone rang, in others, all parties moved on.  Angst was left (mostly) at the door.

It's both amusing and disappointing when people think that an organization like CAP is going to
be somehow immune to the same foibles, politics, and frailties that every other PTA, condo board,
local council, FD, LEA, the military, and corporate organizations are subject to.


A lot of problems, this one included, could be solved with a CC that is willing to put his/her tail on the line for their people. Leaders are supposed to serve their subordinates, not their superiors.


So when do you plan to trade your stripes for bars and become a CC so you can show us how it's supposed to be done?


Luckily we have a CC currently that is more than willing to stand on the carpet for us. The day that that is no longer the case, I'll be happy to put in my packet to transition over to the officer side. Until then, I provide my thoughts to the Wing senior enlisted and Squadron CC from my position as squadron senior enlisted.
TSgt, CAP
SSG, INARNG
Former 3/75 Ranger Battalion
Why won't my back stop hurting.

rltw2017

Quote from: Eclipse on January 14, 2020, 07:05:44 pm
Quote from: PHall on January 14, 2020, 07:00:28 pm
So when do you plan to trade your stripes for bars and become a CC so you can show us how it's supposed to be done?


Flat Tire Axiom #3.

Or is it impossible for NCOs to understand what makes a good leader without raising your own hand?


I have noticed that many members of this board don't seem to appreciate someone trying to take the NCO program within CAP seriously. Understandable, as NHQ has neglected the program for years, but also very sad since it's a program with a great deal of promise from a continuity and professionalism standpoint.
TSgt, CAP
SSG, INARNG
Former 3/75 Ranger Battalion
Why won't my back stop hurting.

Eclipse

Quote from: rltw2017 on January 14, 2020, 07:44:22 pm
I have noticed that many members of this board don't seem to appreciate someone trying to take the NCO program within CAP seriously. Understandable, as NHQ has neglected the program for years, but also very sad since it's a program with a great deal of promise from a continuity and professionalism standpoint.


That's because there is no NCO "Program", only a very small number of members who are afforded the
benefit of wearing their military grade vs working the CAP program.  No different then military officers.

Other then the prohibition on commanding, which is regularly waived (or has been historically) for expedience, there is no
segregation of status or responsibility, nor could CAP survive that.

As I've said 1MM times, we need NCOs because of their experience and general competence, but that's as members,
same as LEO, FDs, medical and other professionals who know how to exist in team environments and can sacrifice
the "me" for the good of the team.

But on the whole, CAP has no more "need" of "NCOs" per se, then they need Officers, since both are irrelevant to
any single duty.

And in this case, the point made has nothing to do with you being an NCO or not, it's just someone trying to make hay
out of a flat tire.



PHall

Quote from: rltw2017 on January 14, 2020, 07:44:22 pm
Quote from: Eclipse on January 14, 2020, 07:05:44 pm
Quote from: PHall on January 14, 2020, 07:00:28 pm
So when do you plan to trade your stripes for bars and become a CC so you can show us how it's supposed to be done?


Flat Tire Axiom #3.

Or is it impossible for NCOs to understand what makes a good leader without raising your own hand?


I have noticed that many members of this board don't seem to appreciate someone trying to take the NCO program within CAP seriously. Understandable, as NHQ has neglected the program for years, but also very sad since it's a program with a great deal of promise from a continuity and professionalism standpoint.


Sorry, but I did try to do the NCO route about 10 years ago. Went back to officer rank after about three years because the stripes more of an obstacle then a help.
Things like being told I could not be a Primary Training Officer at Encampment because a MSgt can't be over a 2d Lt. Never mind this was my 20th encampment...
At least in the cadet program, it just didn't seem to work.

rltw2017

Quote from: PHall on January 14, 2020, 08:54:48 pm
Quote from: rltw2017 on January 14, 2020, 07:44:22 pm
Quote from: Eclipse on January 14, 2020, 07:05:44 pm
Quote from: PHall on January 14, 2020, 07:00:28 pm
So when do you plan to trade your stripes for bars and become a CC so you can show us how it's supposed to be done?


Flat Tire Axiom #3.

Or is it impossible for NCOs to understand what makes a good leader without raising your own hand?


I have noticed that many members of this board don't seem to appreciate someone trying to take the NCO program within CAP seriously. Understandable, as NHQ has neglected the program for years, but also very sad since it's a program with a great deal of promise from a continuity and professionalism standpoint.


Sorry, but I did try to do the NCO route about 10 years ago. Went back to officer rank after about three years because the stripes more of an obstacle then a help.
Things like being told I could not be a Primary Training Officer at Encampment because a MSgt can't be over a 2d Lt. Never mind this was my 20th encampment...
At least in the cadet program, it just didn't seem to work.


I am legitimately sorry to hear that. Our wing SEA has been doing great things trying to empower NCOs, but I have seen how many wings treat members of the NCO corps. I do believe that we are at a turning point for NCOs in CAP. Either NHQ is going to turn out a coherent plan to start letting non prior service in with stripes instead of as officers, or it'll go away entirely. I don't know of anyone, myself included, who likes how the NCO program has been performing for the last almost 7 years.
TSgt, CAP
SSG, INARNG
Former 3/75 Ranger Battalion
Why won't my back stop hurting.

NIN

Quote from: rltw2017 on January 14, 2020, 07:44:22 pm
I have noticed that many members of this board don't seem to appreciate someone trying to take the NCO program within CAP seriously. Understandable, as NHQ has neglected the program for years, but also very sad since it's a program with a great deal of promise from a continuity and professionalism standpoint.


I'm completely OK with an NCO corps, if CAP can ever decouple itself from the "XYZ Officer" paradigm and allow the assignment of "XYZ NCO" or even my favorite "Superintendent" to start with.

The problem, too, is that we have a very, very long embedded history of "officers" doing "enlisted" jobs.  Supply Officer = "Supply Clerk" and no ability to assign a "Supply Sergeant" or "Supply NCO". And of course, we completely lack a junior enlisted corps for the more day-to-day tasks ("Process Request for Decoration" is a "Unit Personnel Clerk" job, not a "Personnel Officer" job, sort of, at least if you apply the RM paradigm). 

So the NCO program is trying very hard to overcome 75 years of institutional inertia as it pertains to "Officers doing jobs that an NCO would normally accomplish."

Don't get me started about "Officers doing NCO business" as it pertains to leadership.

However, at the same time, if we can get better definition for the NCO Corps that doesn't actually use the words in the definition, that would be helpful.

Q: "Why does CAP need an NCO corps for?"
A: "Because we must have a strong NCO corps."

To some extent its a bit of a self-licking ice cream cone.

If CAP had more well-defined the role of the CAP NCO, provided the provisions to assign NCOs to NCO-type positions throughout the organization (more than just "Squadron NCO" or "Command NCO," with duty positions to match) BEFORE we recruited and assigned NCOs, we might have a fighting chance at this.

Instead, we brought a boatload of NCOs into an organization that largely had no clue how to handle NCOs, whether in a RealMilitary™ paradigm or not, didn't define what their role is, didn't explain to people who had no idea what an NCO is how to work with and employ NCOs, and said "Yep, here ya go. NCOs for your NCO program.."

And we see how that has worked out. 

Mods we might need a little thread splitting action here. :) NVM, handled it myself!
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
Wing Dude
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
Nothing posted on CAPTalk should be considered policy unless otherwise stated
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2020 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Fester

Quote from: rltw2017 on January 14, 2020, 07:38:34 pm
Quote from: PHall on January 14, 2020, 07:00:28 pm
Quote from: rltw2017 on January 14, 2020, 06:34:10 pm
Quote from: Eclipse on January 14, 2020, 04:24:57 pm
Quote from: JohhnyD on January 14, 2020, 06:01:09 am
Some Wing PAO types are taking control of local social media. Not regulation, but it is happening. So much for local squadron control!


Those "Wing PAO types" are volunteers like everyone else, inconsistently trained, mixed experience,
possibly taking the role on as a 5th job when they originally joined to fly or GSAR or something.

I'm the first person to call out higher HQs, especially NHQ, for shenanigans, 1/2-baked "iders", and errors
of both omission and commission, but at some point it's on you and the local CC if people vertical or horizontal are
directing actions that cause you angst.

The first time it's an anomaly, and you take the actions to correct understanding.  The second time you
have to start making decisions as to whether it's you that needs correcting, and by the third time
you need to either draw the line or disengage, but just sitting back and wearing it as histrionics
isn't going to help or fix anything, and its especially unhealthy for the respective member.

I've had more then a few occasions where I realized that things would not change, so I needed to
bid the activity, unit, or the organization as a whole, adieu.  In some cases, reality set in and my
phone rang, in others, all parties moved on.  Angst was left (mostly) at the door.

It's both amusing and disappointing when people think that an organization like CAP is going to
be somehow immune to the same foibles, politics, and frailties that every other PTA, condo board,
local council, FD, LEA, the military, and corporate organizations are subject to.


A lot of problems, this one included, could be solved with a CC that is willing to put his/her tail on the line for their people. Leaders are supposed to serve their subordinates, not their superiors.


So when do you plan to trade your stripes for bars and become a CC so you can show us how it's supposed to be done?


Luckily we have a CC currently that is more than willing to stand on the carpet for us. The day that that is no longer the case, I'll be happy to put in my packet to transition over to the officer side. Until then, I provide my thoughts to the Wing senior enlisted and Squadron CC from my position as squadron senior enlisted.


I disagree that leaders are supposed to serve their subordinates, not their superiors.

In my professional life, I have 3 masters.  All worth serving, protecting and taking care of - my owner, my staff, my customers.  All 3 are equally important in my mind as my job would cease to exist if any of the 3 went away.

In my CAP career as a highly-functioning (in my opinion, anyway :) ) CC in the same wing as you are, rltw2017, I fully believe I have 4 masters.  All worth serving, protecting and taking care of - my subordinates, my superiors, my parents of cadets and my customers (USAF, other agencies, etc...)  Again, all 4 are equally important and if any of the 4 go away, I'll be left leading no one.

Just my thoughts.
1stLt, CAP
Squadron CC
Group CPO
Eaker - 1996

PHall

Doesn't help that the "CAP NCO Corps" was the pet project of just one National Commander and that their successors have not really supported it because it's basically a solution looking for a problem.

Phil Hirons, Jr.

Quote from: PHall on January 14, 2020, 08:54:48 pm
Sorry, but I did try to do the NCO route about 10 years ago. Went back to officer rank after about three years because the stripes more of an obstacle then a help.
Things like being told I could not be a Primary Training Officer at Encampment because a MSgt can't be over a 2d Lt. Never mind this was my 20th encampment...
At least in the cadet program, it just didn't seem to work.


:o :o Right, because never in the history of CAP has a Lt Col had a duty assignment under a Lt.

Holding Pattern

Quote from: Phil Hirons, Jr. on January 15, 2020, 05:23:48 pm
Quote from: PHall on January 14, 2020, 08:54:48 pm
Sorry, but I did try to do the NCO route about 10 years ago. Went back to officer rank after about three years because the stripes more of an obstacle then a help.
Things like being told I could not be a Primary Training Officer at Encampment because a MSgt can't be over a 2d Lt. Never mind this was my 20th encampment...
At least in the cadet program, it just didn't seem to work.


:o :o Right, because never in the history of CAP has a Lt Col had a duty assignment under a Lt.


You would think that with ICS caring about quals over rank we'd be past silliness like that throughout the rest of the org, but there are still some people that get overly hung up on it for no good reason.

rltw2017

Quote from: Fester on January 15, 2020, 06:50:28 am
Quote from: rltw2017 on January 14, 2020, 07:38:34 pm
Quote from: PHall on January 14, 2020, 07:00:28 pm
Quote from: rltw2017 on January 14, 2020, 06:34:10 pm
Quote from: Eclipse on January 14, 2020, 04:24:57 pm
Quote from: JohhnyD on January 14, 2020, 06:01:09 am
Some Wing PAO types are taking control of local social media. Not regulation, but it is happening. So much for local squadron control!


Those "Wing PAO types" are volunteers like everyone else, inconsistently trained, mixed experience,
possibly taking the role on as a 5th job when they originally joined to fly or GSAR or something.

I'm the first person to call out higher HQs, especially NHQ, for shenanigans, 1/2-baked "iders", and errors
of both omission and commission, but at some point it's on you and the local CC if people vertical or horizontal are
directing actions that cause you angst.

The first time it's an anomaly, and you take the actions to correct understanding.  The second time you
have to start making decisions as to whether it's you that needs correcting, and by the third time
you need to either draw the line or disengage, but just sitting back and wearing it as histrionics
isn't going to help or fix anything, and its especially unhealthy for the respective member.

I've had more then a few occasions where I realized that things would not change, so I needed to
bid the activity, unit, or the organization as a whole, adieu.  In some cases, reality set in and my
phone rang, in others, all parties moved on.  Angst was left (mostly) at the door.

It's both amusing and disappointing when people think that an organization like CAP is going to
be somehow immune to the same foibles, politics, and frailties that every other PTA, condo board,
local council, FD, LEA, the military, and corporate organizations are subject to.


A lot of problems, this one included, could be solved with a CC that is willing to put his/her tail on the line for their people. Leaders are supposed to serve their subordinates, not their superiors.


So when do you plan to trade your stripes for bars and become a CC so you can show us how it's supposed to be done?


Luckily we have a CC currently that is more than willing to stand on the carpet for us. The day that that is no longer the case, I'll be happy to put in my packet to transition over to the officer side. Until then, I provide my thoughts to the Wing senior enlisted and Squadron CC from my position as squadron senior enlisted.


I disagree that leaders are supposed to serve their subordinates, not their superiors.

In my professional life, I have 3 masters.  All worth serving, protecting and taking care of - my owner, my staff, my customers.  All 3 are equally important in my mind as my job would cease to exist if any of the 3 went away.

In my CAP career as a highly-functioning (in my opinion, anyway :) ) CC in the same wing as you are, rltw2017, I fully believe I have 4 masters.  All worth serving, protecting and taking care of - my subordinates, my superiors, my parents of cadets and my customers (USAF, other agencies, etc...)  Again, all 4 are equally important and if any of the 4 go away, I'll be left leading no one.

Just my thoughts.


I can get behind that line of thinking. I have nothing more to add. Will you be at the wing function this weekend?
TSgt, CAP
SSG, INARNG
Former 3/75 Ranger Battalion
Why won't my back stop hurting.

JayT

Quote from: Holding Pattern on January 15, 2020, 05:41:39 pm
Quote from: Phil Hirons, Jr. on January 15, 2020, 05:23:48 pm
Quote from: PHall on January 14, 2020, 08:54:48 pm
Sorry, but I did try to do the NCO route about 10 years ago. Went back to officer rank after about three years because the stripes more of an obstacle then a help.
Things like being told I could not be a Primary Training Officer at Encampment because a MSgt can't be over a 2d Lt. Never mind this was my 20th encampment...
At least in the cadet program, it just didn't seem to work.


:o :o Right, because never in the history of CAP has a Lt Col had a duty assignment under a Lt.


You would think that with ICS caring about quals over rank we'd be past silliness like that throughout the rest of the org, but there are still some people that get overly hung up on it for no good reason.


Well, in most organizations, qualification and rank are tied together. A firefighter lieutenant WILL be in charge of a firefighter in almost every situation. CAP is unique in that regard.
"Eagerness and thrill seeking in others' misery is psychologically corrosive, and is also rampant in EMS. It's a natural danger of the job. It will be something to keep under control, something to fight against."

etodd

When I walk into a SAREX Mission Base, and 90% are wearing polo, I can't tell who is what rank, whether they are NCO, or whatever.  All I see are people sitting at tables doing various jobs. They may have all types of different ranks, but when it comes down to working at Mission Base or flying in an aircraft, or whatever ... I haven't seen rank at play ... ever.  Everyone has a "job" and they get it done. I've only been in CAP for 4 years, but so far have never seen a senior member salute another one. I guess I'm missing something, but I just don't see how rank is playing much of a part of a typical mission. You could have a Lt. Col. Mission Pilot, being told what to do by a 2nd Lt in Flight Ops.   At a mission, its the job.   (As viewed by a civilian volunteer anyway)
MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO - ESO

sUAS MP - sUAS Instructor - sUAS Check Pilot

Ned

Quote from: JayT on January 15, 2020, 08:49:43 pm
Well, in most organizations, qualification and rank are tied together. A firefighter lieutenant WILL be in charge of a firefighter in almost every situation. CAP is unique in that regard.



Most of the time in CAP grade and qualifications are indeed tied together, if for no other reason than one needs increasing levels of PD ("qualifications") for increasing grade.  Of course, the fact that I have a master rating in CP, and have completed Level 5 may not be all that helpful if I am assigned to a senior squadron and asked to take on non-CP responsibilities.  I would almost certainly be working for someone with a lower grade.  So there is that.

But even if we are only talking about Majors working for 1st Lt squadron commanders, the situation may be unusual, but hardly unique to CAP.

When I served as Army MP battalion headquarters detachment commander as a captain, I had at least 4 officers senior to me in my unit.  (The battalion commander., XO, S3, and a more senior captain assigned as the S4), yet I was the unit commander with Article 15 authority, property book responsibility, etc., etc..  And of course it is not unusual to have an aircraft commander junior in rank to the guy in the right seat.

Or so I'm told.

Mitchell 1969

January 15, 2020, 10:19:19 pm #16 Last Edit: January 15, 2020, 10:22:23 pm by Mitchell 1969
Quote from: Phil Hirons, Jr. on January 15, 2020, 05:23:48 pm


:o :o Right, because never in the history of CAP has a Lt Col had a duty assignment under a Lt.


I was a C/LtCol assigned to Wing HQ in the 70's. More than once, I was the project officer for something where I had a couple of captains or lieutenants (of the Senior variety) working for me. It was simply the nature of the beast. The CAP way is to pitch in and get it done, with experience being more crucial than rank.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.

Eclipse




PHall

Quote from: Holding Pattern on January 15, 2020, 05:41:39 pm
Quote from: Phil Hirons, Jr. on January 15, 2020, 05:23:48 pm
Quote from: PHall on January 14, 2020, 08:54:48 pm
Sorry, but I did try to do the NCO route about 10 years ago. Went back to officer rank after about three years because the stripes more of an obstacle then a help.
Things like being told I could not be a Primary Training Officer at Encampment because a MSgt can't be over a 2d Lt. Never mind this was my 20th encampment...
At least in the cadet program, it just didn't seem to work.


:o :o Right, because never in the history of CAP has a Lt Col had a duty assignment under a Lt.


You would think that with ICS caring about quals over rank we'd be past silliness like that throughout the rest of the org, but there are still some people that get overly hung up on it for no good reason.


Encampment is not Emergency Services and does not use the ICS system. It's an artificial Leadership Laboratory environment.

PHall

Quote from: etodd on January 15, 2020, 08:59:39 pm
When I walk into a SAREX Mission Base, and 90% are wearing polo, I can't tell who is what rank, whether they are NCO, or whatever.  All I see are people sitting at tables doing various jobs. They may have all types of different ranks, but when it comes down to working at Mission Base or flying in an aircraft, or whatever ... I haven't seen rank at play ... ever.  Everyone has a "job" and they get it done. I've only been in CAP for 4 years, but so far have never seen a senior member salute another one. I guess I'm missing something, but I just don't see how rank is playing much of a part of a typical mission. You could have a Lt. Col. Mission Pilot, being told what to do by a 2nd Lt in Flight Ops.   At a mission, its the job.   (As viewed by a civilian volunteer anyway)



And this would be real nice if it applied to a Cadet Encampment. The situation I described was at a Encampment. Totally different environment then what you would find at an Emergency Services activity.