May 26, 2020, 11:07:10 pm

Old Style USAF Service coat

Started by McDaddy2003, January 05, 2020, 05:51:41 am

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supertigerCH

Quote from: THRAWN on January 14, 2020, 05:29:40 pm
Easy fix? No service coat for Cadets. What's next?



This sounds like one of the best solutions for the cadets (at least until the older style uniform/jacket is finally phased out). 

It's a more simple (& a cheaper) way of doing it.  If CAP wants to keep the new style jacket as optional (after phasing out the old one) then fine.  At that point the matching of the shades of blue wouldn't be an issue anymore.


CAPJOE

Quote from: Eclipse on January 05, 2020, 06:57:24 pm
Quote from: arajca on January 05, 2020, 06:09:03 pmComparing a mismatched field uniform to a mismatched dress uniform is not a good comparison. The purpose of a dress uniform is to look professional. Mismatched uniforms do not.

Considering that the majority of CAP members will never wear a field uniform in the field, it's literally the exact same issue.

Material match is also not an issue specific to the old-style service coats as lots of members, especially seniors, buy or procure
a service coat years after buying blues, and never consider they need new pants.

There is also no alternative for many of the cadets who would be penalized by someone being focused on a color chart.
Many would go from having a coat to not having a coat, with no option due to cost. Excellent retention plan.

39-1 "requires" a lot of things, however an organization incapable of policing members who are 50 over in blues
isn't about to go around checking material tags.

In fact, saying anything is "required" by 39-1, which continues to pretend it's the sole authority on uniform wear,
is essentially moot, considering it still doesn't include any language whatsoever regarding ABUs, yet a lot of people wear them.

There is an attachment to 39-1 for regulations of wearing ABU's.

CAPJOE

Quote from: Eclipse on January 05, 2020, 06:57:24 pm
Quote from: arajca on January 05, 2020, 06:09:03 pmComparing a mismatched field uniform to a mismatched dress uniform is not a good comparison. The purpose of a dress uniform is to look professional. Mismatched uniforms do not.

Considering that the majority of CAP members will never wear a field uniform in the field, it's literally the exact same issue.

Material match is also not an issue specific to the old-style service coats as lots of members, especially seniors, buy or procure
a service coat years after buying blues, and never consider they need new pants.

There is also no alternative for many of the cadets who would be penalized by someone being focused on a color chart.
Many would go from having a coat to not having a coat, with no option due to cost. Excellent retention plan.

39-1 "requires" a lot of things, however an organization incapable of policing members who are 50 over in blues
isn't about to go around checking material tags.

In fact, saying anything is "required" by 39-1, which continues to pretend it's the sole authority on uniform wear,
is essentially moot, considering it still doesn't include any language whatsoever regarding ABUs, yet a lot of people wear them.

There is an attachment to 39-1 for regulations of wearing ABU's.
Quote from: PHall on January 13, 2020, 01:34:49 amThe average CAP member, cadet or senior, does not need a Service Dress Uniform.
I'd say about 80% of the times I've seen cadets wearing Service Dress it really wasn't needed.
Quote from: PHall on January 13, 2020, 01:34:49 amThe average CAP member, cadet or senior, does not need a Service Dress Uniform.
I'd say about 80% of the times I've seen cadets wearing Service Dress it really wasn't needed.
Quote from: PHall on January 13, 2020, 01:34:49 amThe average CAP member, cadet or senior, does not need a Service Dress Uniform.
I'd say about 80% of the times I've seen cadets wearing Service Dress it really wasn't needed.

Our cadets wear their Class A or B uniform for the first meeting of the month and when there is any public function.

Eclipse

Quote from: CAPJOE on February 08, 2020, 04:12:49 pmThere is an attachment to 39-1 for regulations of wearing ABU's.

No, there actually isn't.

You might be referring to an improperly published, regulation violating, unincorporated random
memo that popped up on the web in late Oct 2016, but that's certainly not an attachment to anything.



Paul Creed III

The thread is starting to drift like an Ohio winter. Let's steer it back to the topic of the service coats.
Lt Col Paul Creed III, CAP
National Headquarters Cyber Curriculum Specialist
National Headquarters Photography Working Group

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: I_Am_Twigs on January 15, 2020, 06:07:41 amAs for eliminating the service coat, I think it would be unnecessary, and quite frankly, unprofessional when attending social functions that CAP is involved with.  I would never
walk into a black tie event donning a white aviator shirt, even with a tie; it would be inappropriate.  As a cadet, it would most appropriate for me to attend such an event in the
AF Semi-Formal Uniform (it's only authorized for cadets).  Although it is a rare uniform to be seen worn by cadets, it is still worn by quite a few of us, myself included.

Have you been to many black tie non-CAP events? Have you been to many black tie CAP events?

Most people don't go to tuxedo formals on a regular basis.

Quote from: undefinedIn a squadron here in Idaho, they wear Service Dress Uniforms on a monthly basis (blues nights)

Outside of a training approach to conduct uniform inspections, it's really not necessary to dress up for the evening.

I_Am_Twigs

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on February 10, 2020, 03:57:43 pm
Quote from: I_Am_Twigs on January 15, 2020, 06:07:41 amAs for eliminating the service coat, I think it would be unnecessary, and quite frankly, unprofessional when attending social functions that CAP is involved with.  I would never
walk into a black tie event donning a white aviator shirt, even with a tie; it would be inappropriate.  As a cadet, it would most appropriate for me to attend such an event in the
AF Semi-Formal Uniform (it's only authorized for cadets).  Although it is a rare uniform to be seen worn by cadets, it is still worn by quite a few of us, myself included.

Have you been to many black tie non-CAP events? Have you been to many black tie CAP events?

Most people don't go to tuxedo formals on a regular basis.

I've been to a couple of black tie events involving CAP. Our wing's banquet and ball
during our wing conference is considered semi-formal, which would indicate that it's
essentially equivalent to a black tie event. Another event that I attended that would've
been appropriate for me to wear my semi-formal uniform would have been the ball that
was held shortly after the governor of Idaho's inauguration, although it is true that
such an event is not very likely to occur in most cadets' careers, it still would have
been an appropriate time nonetheless.


Quote from: TheSkyHornet on February 10, 2020, 03:57:43 pm
Quote from: undefinedIn a squadron here in Idaho, they wear Service Dress Uniforms on a monthly basis (blues nights)

Outside of a training approach to conduct uniform inspections, it's really not necessary to dress up for the evening.

I know, which would be why we don't do it at my squadron. I've never really understood
why they dress up so much, I've never seen a need for it unless it is for something more
formal such as a change of command or some other form of a formal ceremony.
C/Capt, CAP
"Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." --Winston Churchill

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: I_Am_Twigs on February 12, 2020, 12:59:36 am
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on February 10, 2020, 03:57:43 pm
Quote from: undefinedIn a squadron here in Idaho, they wear Service Dress Uniforms on a monthly basis (blues nights)

Outside of a training approach to conduct uniform inspections, it's really not necessary to dress up for the evening.

I know, which would be why we don't do it at my squadron. I've never really understood
why they dress up so much, I've never seen a need for it unless it is for something more
formal such as a change of command or some other form of a formal ceremony.

I find it's generally a "that's how we've always done it" thing or a matter of "We want the cadet staff to stand out."

I_Am_Twigs

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on February 13, 2020, 06:46:03 pm
Quote from: I_Am_Twigs on February 12, 2020, 12:59:36 am
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on February 10, 2020, 03:57:43 pm
Quote from: undefinedIn a squadron here in Idaho, they wear Service Dress Uniforms on a monthly basis (blues nights)

Outside of a training approach to conduct uniform inspections, it's really not necessary to dress up for the evening.

I know, which would be why we don't do it at my squadron. I've never really understood
why they dress up so much, I've never seen a need for it unless it is for something more
formal such as a change of command or some other form of a formal ceremony.

I find it's generally a "that's how we've always done it" thing or a matter of "We want the cadet staff to stand out."

So do I. I don't quite see a point in pestering them about it either because they're
able to provide the service jackets for everyone, so everyone is wearing them. They
also don't seem to like feedback from fellow cadets (we've disagreed in the past and
they insist their way is the way they've always done it), so I just don't bother
them---I would much rather focus on bettering my own squadron and getting my cadets
to stand-out, than argue with other people who don't seem to see the need to listen
to other ideas.

At my squadron, however, we are not able to provide our cadets with service jackets,
so none of us wear them unless there is an event that calls for us too, then we either
issue a temporary jacket, or go in what we have.
C/Capt, CAP
"Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." --Winston Churchill

Spam

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on February 13, 2020, 06:46:03 pm
Quote from: I_Am_Twigs on February 12, 2020, 12:59:36 am
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on February 10, 2020, 03:57:43 pm
Quote from: undefinedIn a squadron here in Idaho, they wear Service Dress Uniforms on a monthly basis (blues nights)

Outside of a training approach to conduct uniform inspections, it's really not necessary to dress up for the evening.

I know, which would be why we don't do it at my squadron. I've never really understood
why they dress up so much, I've never seen a need for it unless it is for something more
formal such as a change of command or some other form of a formal ceremony.

I find it's generally a "that's how we've always done it" thing or a matter of "We want the cadet staff to stand out."

The entire phenomenon can be summed up in two items:

1. Cosplay. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosplay
At an extreme, this CAP military Cosplay can verge on Stolen Valor, with CAP members who have never served parading around with chests full of medals, wearing full Blues to working meetings, etc. Cross reference: http://www.stolenvalor.com/target.cfm?source=link&sort=order
I've personally seen a CAP officer do this (Patrick AFB, 1989), carrying his mania for uniform cosplay into lies about flying F-4s over 'Nam, etc. (he refused to transition CPP fingerprint and was separated).

2. Star Bellied Sneetches from Dr. Seuss.
This describes the phenomenon of members preening as "Staff".
Watch the video and laugh at when Vanguard shows up to sell uniforms: 


V/r
Spam

Spam

Quote from: I_Am_Twigs on February 13, 2020, 11:16:04 pm
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on February 13, 2020, 06:46:03 pmAt my squadron, however, we are not able to provide our cadets with service jackets,
so none of us wear them unless there is an event that calls for us too, then we either
issue a temporary jacket, or go in what we have.

I honor you for this.
This, Sir, is the core value of Respect in practice.

R/s
Spam

I_Am_Twigs

Quote from: Spam on February 13, 2020, 11:26:25 pmThe entire phenomenon can be summed up in two items:

1. Cosplay. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosplay
At an extreme, this CAP military Cosplay can verge on Stolen Valor, with CAP members who have never served parading around with chests full of medals, wearing full Blues to working meetings, etc. Cross reference: http://www.stolenvalor.com/target.cfm?source=link&sort=order
I've personally seen a CAP officer do this (Patrick AFB, 1989), carrying his mania for uniform cosplay into lies about flying F-4s over 'Nam, etc. (he refused to transition CPP fingerprint and was separated).

2. Star Bellied Sneetches from Dr. Seuss.
This describes the phenomenon of members preening as "Staff".
Watch the video and laugh at when Vanguard shows up to sell uniforms: 


V/r
Spam

Oh my... I'm not sure that I like the moral of the story. Scamguard Vanguard
is the great, yet accidental equalizer?

With all jokes and satire aside... I believe that this "rankism" if you will, is a
problem that many squadrons have suffered from. When I was a National Blue Beret
there was a simple value that was engrained into my leadership style, and I believe
that it will stick with me throughout life. That value was humility; we are all human,
none of us are better than the other, we all make mistakes, albiet some worse than
others, we're all still human. Those of us who have the great privilege of leading
others must understand that fundamental truth and live without boasting or flaunting
our awards or authority.

That's my 2 cents.

Quote from: Spam on February 13, 2020, 11:27:35 pm
Quote from: I_Am_Twigs on February 13, 2020, 11:16:04 pm
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on February 13, 2020, 06:46:03 pmAt my squadron, however, we are not able to provide our cadets with service jackets,
so none of us wear them unless there is an event that calls for us too, then we either
issue a temporary jacket, or go in what we have.

I honor you for this.
This, Sir, is the core value of Respect in practice.

R/s
Spam

Thank you, Sir. I take the core values very seriously and do my best to live them to
the fullest.
C/Capt, CAP
"Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." --Winston Churchill

NIN

I had a crazy idea (I'm full of them, some of them are actually "not crazy") recently regarding cadets and "coats"

What about a version of the USAFA "A-jacket" for cadets up to, say, cadet officer?





Embroidered on CAP seal on the left breast. Last name tag on the right (just like the USAFA). Wing patch on the left sleeve. Maybe squadron patch on the right.

That's not a "winter" jacket (unless you added the quilted vest like the lightweight jacket), but it could certainly be a common "more than just Class B's" kind of thing. Its distinctive, and if the jacket I picked up from Macy's last year that looks almost exactly like it is any indication, it can be had cheaply (I paid $50)

After you become a cadet officer, regular wear of Class As is up to you.

Obviously, displayed rank is an issue, but you can discern that from the headgear, but the fleece-style velcro rank would work. :)
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
Wing Dude
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
Nothing posted on CAPTalk should be considered policy unless otherwise stated
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2020 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

I_Am_Twigs

Quote from: NIN on February 14, 2020, 02:57:18 pmWhat about a version of the USAFA "A-jacket" for cadets up to, say, cadet officer?

Embroidered on CAP seal on the left breast. Last name tag on the right (just like the USAFA). Wing patch on the left sleeve. Maybe squadron patch on the right.

That's not a "winter" jacket (unless you added the quilted vest like the lightweight jacket), but it could certainly be a common "more than just Class B's" kind of thing. Its distinctive, and if the jacket I picked up from Macy's last year that looks almost exactly like it is any indication, it can be had cheaply (I paid $50)

After you become a cadet officer, regular wear of Class As is up to you.

Obviously, displayed rank is an issue, but you can discern that from the headgear, but the fleece-style velcro rank would work. :)

Although I like the look of that, I do not think it can be a "more than class B's
kind of thing." The patches give it a less formal look, less formal than even class
B's. It also does not display the ribbons and awards like the class A's do, which is
kind of what makes it more formal when paired with the service coat.

The other issue with it is that we would have to add another uniform combination to
CAPM 39-1, which may take a while, especially considering we still have not gotten
our official ABU update...

I think the solution would be to issue service coats to committed cadets (provided
that you have a supply of said coats), or to issue temporary service coats for
activities that call for it (again, provided that you have a supply of them). If
you do not have a supply of them, then you may simply have to go without, after
all, it is not a required uniform
---it may just be more preferred for certain
occasions.
C/Capt, CAP
"Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." --Winston Churchill

PHall

IIRC the USAFA A jackets are about $100 each.

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: I_Am_Twigs on February 15, 2020, 01:41:06 amI think the solution would be to issue service coats to committed cadets

Define "committed" -- Who specifically gets a coat?

I_Am_Twigs

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on February 17, 2020, 03:06:42 pm
Quote from: I_Am_Twigs on February 15, 2020, 01:41:06 amI think the solution would be to issue service coats to committed cadets

Define "committed" -- Who specifically gets a coat?

Cadets who attend meetings regularly, attend activities regularly (they may need the
service coat at some), maintains a good and consistent attitude towards CAP.
Essentially anyone who shows a promising future in CAP.

I understand that it is extremely subjective, which is also another reason that my
squadron hesitates when issuing the service coats. And as I said earlier, even those
cadets who are committed only wear their service coat when needed, never at weekly
meetings. Temporarily issued service coats is typically our go-to option for most
cadets, the coats are always logged in and out, so we're always keeping track of them.
C/Capt, CAP
"Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." --Winston Churchill

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: I_Am_Twigs on February 17, 2020, 10:55:47 pmTemporarily issued service coats is typically our go-to option for most
cadets, the coats are always logged in and out, so we're always keeping track of them.

I think that's a much better method if you have a limited inventory.

Sign out the item, know who has what, and collect them when it's time.

We've done that with extra items for NCSAs. "Hey, you can borrow this for the month, but we want it back. If you want it full-time, you need to get your own."