July 04, 2020, 09:08:32 pm

Old Style USAF Service coat

Started by McDaddy2003, January 05, 2020, 05:51:41 am

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McDaddy2003

Does anyone know when the Old style USAF Service Coat will be phased out? It was originally supposed to be in 2003 but most coats, although scarce, are becoming worn, tattered, and blue shade doesn't match the trousers.

I agree it is a better looking uniform, new.

Eclipse

Nothing has been announced publicly about any sundown for the old-style service coats.

There are thousands out in the field that are perfectly serviceable, considering for most cadets
they are only won a few times a year.

There are also thousands of cadets wearing field uniforms with mis-matched parts as well,
and somehow CAP has survived.



arajca

Comparing a mismatched field uniform to a mismatched dress uniform is not a good comparison. The purpose of a dress uniform is to look professional. Mismatched uniforms do not.

The old style service coat should be phased out. CAPM 39-1 REQUIRES the coat and pants match in both fabric and shade. Therefore, the current practice of wearing the old service coat with new trousers is in direct violation of CAPM 39-1, para 4.1.5.8. There is no exception for the lack of availability of the old style trousers or cool factor.

Eclipse

Quote from: arajca on January 05, 2020, 06:09:03 pm
Comparing a mismatched field uniform to a mismatched dress uniform is not a good comparison. The purpose of a dress uniform is to look professional. Mismatched uniforms do not.


Considering that the majority of CAP members will never wear a field uniform in the field, it's literally the exact same issue.

Material match is also not an issue specific to the old-style service coats as lots of members, especially seniors, buy or procure
a service coat years after buying blues, and never consider they need new pants.

There is also no alternative for many of the cadets who would be penalized by someone being focused on a color chart.
Many would go from having a coat to not having a coat, with no option due to cost. Excellent retention plan.

39-1 "requires" a lot of things, however an organization incapable of policing members who are 50 over in blues
isn't about to go around checking material tags.

In fact, saying anything is "required" by 39-1, which continues to pretend it's the sole authority on uniform wear,
is essentially moot, considering it still doesn't include any language whatsoever regarding ABUs, yet a lot of people wear them.



rltw2017

January 13, 2020, 12:29:26 am #4 Last Edit: January 13, 2020, 02:33:25 am by rltw2017
Quote from: arajca on January 05, 2020, 06:09:03 pm
Comparing a mismatched field uniform to a mismatched dress uniform is not a good comparison. The purpose of a dress uniform is to look professional. Mismatched uniforms do not.

The old style service coat should be phased out. CAPM 39-1 REQUIRES the coat and pants match in both fabric and shade. Therefore, the current practice of wearing the old service coat with new trousers is in direct violation of CAPM 39-1, para 4.1.5.8. There is no exception for the lack of availability of the old style trousers or cool factor.


Until you or anyone else can provide a reasonable, cost effective plan to provide cadets with the current USAF service dress the issue is pointless. Either some cadets will have serviceable, albeit old and/or mismatched uniforms, or they won't have a complete set at all. Right now, especially for units geographically separated from USAF posts, there isn't a reasonable alternative. At the end of the day there is no pressing need for all cadets to have service dress. By doctrine there's no need for anyone to have any USAF style uniform. We are a volunteer auxiliary organization, not the Old Guard or a combat unit. A few old style uniforms floating around aren't the end of the world, and I would impress upon you the value in instead focusing on our emergency services, aerospace education, or cadet operations rather than frivolous, fringe uniform sourcing issues.
TSgt, CAP
SSG, INARNG
Former 3/75 Ranger Battalion
Why won't my back stop hurting.

Eclipse

Quote from: rltw2017 on January 13, 2020, 12:29:26 am
Until you or anyone else can provide a reasonable, cost effective plan to provide cadets and senior members with the current USAF service dress the issue is pointless.


Only cadets are authorized the old-style, just FYI.  This doesn't affect senior members.



PHall

The average CAP member, cadet or senior, does not need a Service Dress Uniform.
I'd say about 80% of the times I've seen cadets wearing Service Dress it really wasn't needed.

CAP9907

Quote from: PHall on January 13, 2020, 01:34:49 am
The average CAP member, cadet or senior, does not need a Service Dress Uniform.
I'd say about 80% of the times I've seen cadets wearing Service Dress it really wasn't needed.


I've gone 20+ years with only the required minimum/corporate 'uniform':  Blues (no coat) as a Cadet also with BDU's. No Blues or ABU/BDU as a Senior (corporate only).

I've never been asked to leave a CAP event for not showing up in anything other than the minimum required in the Manual/regs.

YMMV by location, but it shouldn't.

~9907
21 yrs of service

Our Members Code of Conduct can be found here:   http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=13.0

rltw2017

January 13, 2020, 02:32:17 am #8 Last Edit: January 13, 2020, 02:44:17 am by rltw2017
Quote from: Eclipse on January 13, 2020, 01:13:54 am
Quote from: rltw2017 on January 13, 2020, 12:29:26 am
Until you or anyone else can provide a reasonable, cost effective plan to provide cadets and senior members with the current USAF service dress the issue is pointless.


Only cadets are authorized the old-style, just FYI.  This doesn't affect senior members.


Ah my bad. Still learning all the ins and outs. Thank you for the correction. I hope that my basic point still stands.
TSgt, CAP
SSG, INARNG
Former 3/75 Ranger Battalion
Why won't my back stop hurting.

Fester

Quote from: rltw2017 on January 13, 2020, 12:29:26 am
Quote from: arajca on January 05, 2020, 06:09:03 pm
Comparing a mismatched field uniform to a mismatched dress uniform is not a good comparison. The purpose of a dress uniform is to look professional. Mismatched uniforms do not.

The old style service coat should be phased out. CAPM 39-1 REQUIRES the coat and pants match in both fabric and shade. Therefore, the current practice of wearing the old service coat with new trousers is in direct violation of CAPM 39-1, para 4.1.5.8. There is no exception for the lack of availability of the old style trousers or cool factor.


Until you or anyone else can provide a reasonable, cost effective plan to provide cadets with the current USAF service dress the issue is pointless. Either some cadets will have serviceable, albeit old and/or mismatched uniforms, or they won't have a complete set at all. Right now, especially for units geographically separated from USAF posts, there isn't a reasonable alternative. At the end of the day there is no pressing need for all cadets to have service dress. By doctrine there's no need for anyone to have any USAF style uniform. We are a volunteer auxiliary organization, not the Old Guard or a combat unit. A few old style uniforms floating around aren't the end of the world, and I would impress upon you the value in instead focusing on our emergency services, aerospace education, or cadet operations rather than frivolous, fringe uniform sourcing issues.


We know you're new here, but you'll soon find out that nothing gets the juices flowing here like a uniform debate. And a debate ensues at ANY mention of uniforms.

Your mileage will NOT vary.  :D
1stLt, CAP
Squadron CC
Group CPO
Eaker - 1996

Kayll'b

sure, maybe you shouldn't wear a service jacket if it doesn't match your trousers...but that doesn't mean we should phase them out as long as there are still good ones out there.
C/1st Lt

Mitchell # 69847

Squadron Cadet Leadership officer

GCAC Recorder

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: Kayll'b on January 13, 2020, 08:35:51 pm
sure, maybe you shouldn't wear a service jacket if it doesn't match your trousers...but that doesn't mean we should phase them out as long as there are still good ones out there.



Except there are few/almost no matching trousers, and the ties don't match well either.

THRAWN

Easy fix? No service coat for Cadets. What's next?
Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016

PHall

Quote from: Майор Хаткевич on January 14, 2020, 04:13:36 pm
Quote from: Kayll'b on January 13, 2020, 08:35:51 pm
sure, maybe you shouldn't wear a service jacket if it doesn't match your trousers...but that doesn't mean we should phase them out as long as there are still good ones out there.



Except there are few/almost no matching trousers, and the ties don't match well either.


The matching trousers haven't been manufactured in over 10 years. The current trousers and jackets are a different shade.
The current specification jackets are widely available through surplus sources. We need to finally phase the old jackets out.


Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: PHall on January 14, 2020, 05:35:07 pm
Quote from: Майор Хаткевич on January 14, 2020, 04:13:36 pm
Quote from: Kayll'b on January 13, 2020, 08:35:51 pm
sure, maybe you shouldn't wear a service jacket if it doesn't match your trousers...but that doesn't mean we should phase them out as long as there are still good ones out there.



Except there are few/almost no matching trousers, and the ties don't match well either.


The matching trousers haven't been manufactured in over 10 years. The current trousers and jackets are a different shade.
The current specification jackets are widely available through surplus sources. We need to finally phase the old jackets out.



Agreed. The majority being worn by cadets are probably twice as old as the youngest cadets .

rltw2017

Quote from: THRAWN on January 14, 2020, 05:29:40 pm
Easy fix? No service coat for Cadets. What's next?


I could get behind no service uniforms for anyone except the brass and color/honor guard. 95% of members, senior or cadets, don't need them.
TSgt, CAP
SSG, INARNG
Former 3/75 Ranger Battalion
Why won't my back stop hurting.

PHall

Quote from: rltw2017 on January 14, 2020, 06:27:22 pm
Quote from: THRAWN on January 14, 2020, 05:29:40 pm
Easy fix? No service coat for Cadets. What's next?


I could get behind no service uniforms for anyone except the brass and color/honor guard. 95% of members, senior or cadets, don't need them.


You will probably find that 90-95% of CAP members, cadet and senior, do not own a Service Coat.

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: rltw2017 on January 14, 2020, 06:27:22 pm
Quote from: THRAWN on January 14, 2020, 05:29:40 pm
Easy fix? No service coat for Cadets. What's next?


I could get behind no service uniforms for anyone except the brass and color/honor guard. 95% of members, senior or cadets, don't need them.


I agree that the service uniform shouldn't be the mandatory uniform; I think utilities should be. Blues are extremely limiting as to the activities that may be conducted. Yes, the entire Cadet Program curriculum can virtually be conducted in service uniform, but is it feasible and will it capture other activity elements that, while not mandatory, may be more fun. You can conduct virtually the entire Cadet Program curriculum in utilities just the same. The squadron has the discretion to dictate the activities, to include the associate uniform worn with those activities.

Let's be sure, however, to different service uniforms (no coat) and service dress (coat). In most situations, there is no need to be so formal to be in service dress; however, the service dress uniform is optional to begin with anyway. The exceptions are some NCSA requirements, but that's really the extent of it.

Honor Guard is in the Honor Guard uniform (a variation of service dress, but not service dress itself).
Color Guard can be in any uniform, and should match the formality of the occasion.

Special teams are normally expected to acquire their own uniform items. That makes complete sense, unless the squadron provides it; fair enough.

But there is this "I must have this" mentality that is totally unchecked in some cases...such as cadet officers needing service caps at ceremonies, or the command staff wearing Class As, or other "traditions" that don't actually exist.

rltw2017

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on January 14, 2020, 07:09:30 pm
Quote from: rltw2017 on January 14, 2020, 06:27:22 pm
Quote from: THRAWN on January 14, 2020, 05:29:40 pm
Easy fix? No service coat for Cadets. What's next?


I could get behind no service uniforms for anyone except the brass and color/honor guard. 95% of members, senior or cadets, don't need them.


I agree that the service uniform shouldn't be the mandatory uniform; I think utilities should be. Blues are extremely limiting as to the activities that may be conducted. Yes, the entire Cadet Program curriculum can virtually be conducted in service uniform, but is it feasible and will it capture other activity elements that, while not mandatory, may be more fun. You can conduct virtually the entire Cadet Program curriculum in utilities just the same. The squadron has the discretion to dictate the activities, to include the associate uniform worn with those activities.

Let's be sure, however, to different service uniforms (no coat) and service dress (coat). In most situations, there is no need to be so formal to be in service dress; however, the service dress uniform is optional to begin with anyway. The exceptions are some NCSA requirements, but that's really the extent of it.

Honor Guard is in the Honor Guard uniform (a variation of service dress, but not service dress itself).
Color Guard can be in any uniform, and should match the formality of the occasion.

Special teams are normally expected to acquire their own uniform items. That makes complete sense, unless the squadron provides it; fair enough.

But there is this "I must have this" mentality that is totally unchecked in some cases...such as cadet officers needing service caps at ceremonies, or the command staff wearing Class As, or other "traditions" that don't actually exist.


This a million times. Our new CC is very big on making sure that none of our squadron events are in service dress. The only cadet that is encouraged to procure their own service dress is the cadet CC. Beyond that it is entirely optional, and cadets are made well aware that they won't need it for any local functions.
TSgt, CAP
SSG, INARNG
Former 3/75 Ranger Battalion
Why won't my back stop hurting.

I_Am_Twigs

Perhaps, to solve the problem of wearing the uniforms at the wrong place and wrong time, we should turn our attention to Table 1.1, which is
conveniently provided in CAPM 39-1 (page 7).*  This table outlines when and where to wear the proper uniform, it also lists the civilian and CAP corporate equivalents.


As for eliminating the service coat, I think it would be unnecessary, and quite frankly, unprofessional when attending social functions that CAP is involved with.  I would never
walk into a black tie event donning a white aviator shirt, even with a tie; it would be inappropriate.  As a cadet, it would most appropriate for me to attend such an event in the
AF Semi-Formal Uniform (it's only authorized for cadets).  Although it is a rare uniform to be seen worn by cadets, it is still worn by quite a few of us, myself included.

According to the table, it says that the Service Dress Uniform (Class A) or the Blue Service Uniform (Class B) will be worn for everyday business (e.g., weekly meetings, fundraisers, conferences).
However, it also says that the appropriate combination depends on the commander's direction.  In a squadron here in Idaho, they wear Service Dress Uniforms on a monthly basis (blues nights),
whereas in my personal squadron, we wear the Blue Service Uniform for blues nights.  Again, it just depends on the squadron and its commander's choice.

Although I am a big fan of the Old-Style service jacket, I do agree that the color in most are quite faded and simply will not match with trousers nine times out of ten.
I personally think the USAF and CAP should just switch back to that style entirely, but I'm not really in a place to decide that, so I'll just have to work with what I've got.


*Screenshot of CAPM 39-1, Table 1.1 is attached
C/Capt, CAP
"Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." --Winston Churchill