May 26, 2020, 10:45:34 pm

Old Style USAF Service coat

Started by McDaddy2003, January 05, 2020, 05:51:41 am

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McDaddy2003

Does anyone know when the Old style USAF Service Coat will be phased out? It was originally supposed to be in 2003 but most coats, although scarce, are becoming worn, tattered, and blue shade doesn't match the trousers.

I agree it is a better looking uniform, new.

Eclipse

Nothing has been announced publicly about any sundown for the old-style service coats.

There are thousands out in the field that are perfectly serviceable, considering for most cadets
they are only won a few times a year.

There are also thousands of cadets wearing field uniforms with mis-matched parts as well,
and somehow CAP has survived.



arajca

Comparing a mismatched field uniform to a mismatched dress uniform is not a good comparison. The purpose of a dress uniform is to look professional. Mismatched uniforms do not.

The old style service coat should be phased out. CAPM 39-1 REQUIRES the coat and pants match in both fabric and shade. Therefore, the current practice of wearing the old service coat with new trousers is in direct violation of CAPM 39-1, para 4.1.5.8. There is no exception for the lack of availability of the old style trousers or cool factor.

Eclipse

Quote from: arajca on January 05, 2020, 06:09:03 pm
Comparing a mismatched field uniform to a mismatched dress uniform is not a good comparison. The purpose of a dress uniform is to look professional. Mismatched uniforms do not.


Considering that the majority of CAP members will never wear a field uniform in the field, it's literally the exact same issue.

Material match is also not an issue specific to the old-style service coats as lots of members, especially seniors, buy or procure
a service coat years after buying blues, and never consider they need new pants.

There is also no alternative for many of the cadets who would be penalized by someone being focused on a color chart.
Many would go from having a coat to not having a coat, with no option due to cost. Excellent retention plan.

39-1 "requires" a lot of things, however an organization incapable of policing members who are 50 over in blues
isn't about to go around checking material tags.

In fact, saying anything is "required" by 39-1, which continues to pretend it's the sole authority on uniform wear,
is essentially moot, considering it still doesn't include any language whatsoever regarding ABUs, yet a lot of people wear them.



rltw2017

January 13, 2020, 12:29:26 am #4 Last Edit: January 13, 2020, 02:33:25 am by rltw2017
Quote from: arajca on January 05, 2020, 06:09:03 pm
Comparing a mismatched field uniform to a mismatched dress uniform is not a good comparison. The purpose of a dress uniform is to look professional. Mismatched uniforms do not.

The old style service coat should be phased out. CAPM 39-1 REQUIRES the coat and pants match in both fabric and shade. Therefore, the current practice of wearing the old service coat with new trousers is in direct violation of CAPM 39-1, para 4.1.5.8. There is no exception for the lack of availability of the old style trousers or cool factor.


Until you or anyone else can provide a reasonable, cost effective plan to provide cadets with the current USAF service dress the issue is pointless. Either some cadets will have serviceable, albeit old and/or mismatched uniforms, or they won't have a complete set at all. Right now, especially for units geographically separated from USAF posts, there isn't a reasonable alternative. At the end of the day there is no pressing need for all cadets to have service dress. By doctrine there's no need for anyone to have any USAF style uniform. We are a volunteer auxiliary organization, not the Old Guard or a combat unit. A few old style uniforms floating around aren't the end of the world, and I would impress upon you the value in instead focusing on our emergency services, aerospace education, or cadet operations rather than frivolous, fringe uniform sourcing issues.
TSgt, CAP
SSG, INARNG
Former 3/75 Ranger Battalion
Why won't my back stop hurting.

Eclipse

Quote from: rltw2017 on January 13, 2020, 12:29:26 am
Until you or anyone else can provide a reasonable, cost effective plan to provide cadets and senior members with the current USAF service dress the issue is pointless.


Only cadets are authorized the old-style, just FYI.  This doesn't affect senior members.



PHall

The average CAP member, cadet or senior, does not need a Service Dress Uniform.
I'd say about 80% of the times I've seen cadets wearing Service Dress it really wasn't needed.

CAP9907

Quote from: PHall on January 13, 2020, 01:34:49 am
The average CAP member, cadet or senior, does not need a Service Dress Uniform.
I'd say about 80% of the times I've seen cadets wearing Service Dress it really wasn't needed.


I've gone 20+ years with only the required minimum/corporate 'uniform':  Blues (no coat) as a Cadet also with BDU's. No Blues or ABU/BDU as a Senior (corporate only).

I've never been asked to leave a CAP event for not showing up in anything other than the minimum required in the Manual/regs.

YMMV by location, but it shouldn't.

~9907
21 yrs of service

Our Members Code of Conduct can be found here:   http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=13.0

rltw2017

January 13, 2020, 02:32:17 am #8 Last Edit: January 13, 2020, 02:44:17 am by rltw2017
Quote from: Eclipse on January 13, 2020, 01:13:54 am
Quote from: rltw2017 on January 13, 2020, 12:29:26 am
Until you or anyone else can provide a reasonable, cost effective plan to provide cadets and senior members with the current USAF service dress the issue is pointless.


Only cadets are authorized the old-style, just FYI.  This doesn't affect senior members.


Ah my bad. Still learning all the ins and outs. Thank you for the correction. I hope that my basic point still stands.
TSgt, CAP
SSG, INARNG
Former 3/75 Ranger Battalion
Why won't my back stop hurting.

Fester

Quote from: rltw2017 on January 13, 2020, 12:29:26 am
Quote from: arajca on January 05, 2020, 06:09:03 pm
Comparing a mismatched field uniform to a mismatched dress uniform is not a good comparison. The purpose of a dress uniform is to look professional. Mismatched uniforms do not.

The old style service coat should be phased out. CAPM 39-1 REQUIRES the coat and pants match in both fabric and shade. Therefore, the current practice of wearing the old service coat with new trousers is in direct violation of CAPM 39-1, para 4.1.5.8. There is no exception for the lack of availability of the old style trousers or cool factor.


Until you or anyone else can provide a reasonable, cost effective plan to provide cadets with the current USAF service dress the issue is pointless. Either some cadets will have serviceable, albeit old and/or mismatched uniforms, or they won't have a complete set at all. Right now, especially for units geographically separated from USAF posts, there isn't a reasonable alternative. At the end of the day there is no pressing need for all cadets to have service dress. By doctrine there's no need for anyone to have any USAF style uniform. We are a volunteer auxiliary organization, not the Old Guard or a combat unit. A few old style uniforms floating around aren't the end of the world, and I would impress upon you the value in instead focusing on our emergency services, aerospace education, or cadet operations rather than frivolous, fringe uniform sourcing issues.


We know you're new here, but you'll soon find out that nothing gets the juices flowing here like a uniform debate. And a debate ensues at ANY mention of uniforms.

Your mileage will NOT vary.  :D
1stLt, CAP
Squadron CC
Group CPO
Eaker - 1996

Kayll'b

sure, maybe you shouldn't wear a service jacket if it doesn't match your trousers...but that doesn't mean we should phase them out as long as there are still good ones out there.
C/1st Lt

Mitchell # 69847

Squadron Cadet Leadership officer

GCAC Recorder

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: Kayll'b on January 13, 2020, 08:35:51 pm
sure, maybe you shouldn't wear a service jacket if it doesn't match your trousers...but that doesn't mean we should phase them out as long as there are still good ones out there.



Except there are few/almost no matching trousers, and the ties don't match well either.

THRAWN

Easy fix? No service coat for Cadets. What's next?
Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016

PHall

Quote from: Майор Хаткевич on January 14, 2020, 04:13:36 pm
Quote from: Kayll'b on January 13, 2020, 08:35:51 pm
sure, maybe you shouldn't wear a service jacket if it doesn't match your trousers...but that doesn't mean we should phase them out as long as there are still good ones out there.



Except there are few/almost no matching trousers, and the ties don't match well either.


The matching trousers haven't been manufactured in over 10 years. The current trousers and jackets are a different shade.
The current specification jackets are widely available through surplus sources. We need to finally phase the old jackets out.


Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: PHall on January 14, 2020, 05:35:07 pm
Quote from: Майор Хаткевич on January 14, 2020, 04:13:36 pm
Quote from: Kayll'b on January 13, 2020, 08:35:51 pm
sure, maybe you shouldn't wear a service jacket if it doesn't match your trousers...but that doesn't mean we should phase them out as long as there are still good ones out there.



Except there are few/almost no matching trousers, and the ties don't match well either.


The matching trousers haven't been manufactured in over 10 years. The current trousers and jackets are a different shade.
The current specification jackets are widely available through surplus sources. We need to finally phase the old jackets out.



Agreed. The majority being worn by cadets are probably twice as old as the youngest cadets .

rltw2017

Quote from: THRAWN on January 14, 2020, 05:29:40 pm
Easy fix? No service coat for Cadets. What's next?


I could get behind no service uniforms for anyone except the brass and color/honor guard. 95% of members, senior or cadets, don't need them.
TSgt, CAP
SSG, INARNG
Former 3/75 Ranger Battalion
Why won't my back stop hurting.

PHall

Quote from: rltw2017 on January 14, 2020, 06:27:22 pm
Quote from: THRAWN on January 14, 2020, 05:29:40 pm
Easy fix? No service coat for Cadets. What's next?


I could get behind no service uniforms for anyone except the brass and color/honor guard. 95% of members, senior or cadets, don't need them.


You will probably find that 90-95% of CAP members, cadet and senior, do not own a Service Coat.

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: rltw2017 on January 14, 2020, 06:27:22 pm
Quote from: THRAWN on January 14, 2020, 05:29:40 pm
Easy fix? No service coat for Cadets. What's next?


I could get behind no service uniforms for anyone except the brass and color/honor guard. 95% of members, senior or cadets, don't need them.


I agree that the service uniform shouldn't be the mandatory uniform; I think utilities should be. Blues are extremely limiting as to the activities that may be conducted. Yes, the entire Cadet Program curriculum can virtually be conducted in service uniform, but is it feasible and will it capture other activity elements that, while not mandatory, may be more fun. You can conduct virtually the entire Cadet Program curriculum in utilities just the same. The squadron has the discretion to dictate the activities, to include the associate uniform worn with those activities.

Let's be sure, however, to different service uniforms (no coat) and service dress (coat). In most situations, there is no need to be so formal to be in service dress; however, the service dress uniform is optional to begin with anyway. The exceptions are some NCSA requirements, but that's really the extent of it.

Honor Guard is in the Honor Guard uniform (a variation of service dress, but not service dress itself).
Color Guard can be in any uniform, and should match the formality of the occasion.

Special teams are normally expected to acquire their own uniform items. That makes complete sense, unless the squadron provides it; fair enough.

But there is this "I must have this" mentality that is totally unchecked in some cases...such as cadet officers needing service caps at ceremonies, or the command staff wearing Class As, or other "traditions" that don't actually exist.

rltw2017

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on January 14, 2020, 07:09:30 pm
Quote from: rltw2017 on January 14, 2020, 06:27:22 pm
Quote from: THRAWN on January 14, 2020, 05:29:40 pm
Easy fix? No service coat for Cadets. What's next?


I could get behind no service uniforms for anyone except the brass and color/honor guard. 95% of members, senior or cadets, don't need them.


I agree that the service uniform shouldn't be the mandatory uniform; I think utilities should be. Blues are extremely limiting as to the activities that may be conducted. Yes, the entire Cadet Program curriculum can virtually be conducted in service uniform, but is it feasible and will it capture other activity elements that, while not mandatory, may be more fun. You can conduct virtually the entire Cadet Program curriculum in utilities just the same. The squadron has the discretion to dictate the activities, to include the associate uniform worn with those activities.

Let's be sure, however, to different service uniforms (no coat) and service dress (coat). In most situations, there is no need to be so formal to be in service dress; however, the service dress uniform is optional to begin with anyway. The exceptions are some NCSA requirements, but that's really the extent of it.

Honor Guard is in the Honor Guard uniform (a variation of service dress, but not service dress itself).
Color Guard can be in any uniform, and should match the formality of the occasion.

Special teams are normally expected to acquire their own uniform items. That makes complete sense, unless the squadron provides it; fair enough.

But there is this "I must have this" mentality that is totally unchecked in some cases...such as cadet officers needing service caps at ceremonies, or the command staff wearing Class As, or other "traditions" that don't actually exist.


This a million times. Our new CC is very big on making sure that none of our squadron events are in service dress. The only cadet that is encouraged to procure their own service dress is the cadet CC. Beyond that it is entirely optional, and cadets are made well aware that they won't need it for any local functions.
TSgt, CAP
SSG, INARNG
Former 3/75 Ranger Battalion
Why won't my back stop hurting.

I_Am_Twigs

Perhaps, to solve the problem of wearing the uniforms at the wrong place and wrong time, we should turn our attention to Table 1.1, which is
conveniently provided in CAPM 39-1 (page 7).*  This table outlines when and where to wear the proper uniform, it also lists the civilian and CAP corporate equivalents.


As for eliminating the service coat, I think it would be unnecessary, and quite frankly, unprofessional when attending social functions that CAP is involved with.  I would never
walk into a black tie event donning a white aviator shirt, even with a tie; it would be inappropriate.  As a cadet, it would most appropriate for me to attend such an event in the
AF Semi-Formal Uniform (it's only authorized for cadets).  Although it is a rare uniform to be seen worn by cadets, it is still worn by quite a few of us, myself included.

According to the table, it says that the Service Dress Uniform (Class A) or the Blue Service Uniform (Class B) will be worn for everyday business (e.g., weekly meetings, fundraisers, conferences).
However, it also says that the appropriate combination depends on the commander's direction.  In a squadron here in Idaho, they wear Service Dress Uniforms on a monthly basis (blues nights),
whereas in my personal squadron, we wear the Blue Service Uniform for blues nights.  Again, it just depends on the squadron and its commander's choice.

Although I am a big fan of the Old-Style service jacket, I do agree that the color in most are quite faded and simply will not match with trousers nine times out of ten.
I personally think the USAF and CAP should just switch back to that style entirely, but I'm not really in a place to decide that, so I'll just have to work with what I've got.


*Screenshot of CAPM 39-1, Table 1.1 is attached
C/Capt, CAP
"Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." --Winston Churchill

supertigerCH

Quote from: THRAWN on January 14, 2020, 05:29:40 pm
Easy fix? No service coat for Cadets. What's next?



This sounds like one of the best solutions for the cadets (at least until the older style uniform/jacket is finally phased out). 

It's a more simple (& a cheaper) way of doing it.  If CAP wants to keep the new style jacket as optional (after phasing out the old one) then fine.  At that point the matching of the shades of blue wouldn't be an issue anymore.


CAPJOE

Quote from: Eclipse on January 05, 2020, 06:57:24 pm
Quote from: arajca on January 05, 2020, 06:09:03 pmComparing a mismatched field uniform to a mismatched dress uniform is not a good comparison. The purpose of a dress uniform is to look professional. Mismatched uniforms do not.

Considering that the majority of CAP members will never wear a field uniform in the field, it's literally the exact same issue.

Material match is also not an issue specific to the old-style service coats as lots of members, especially seniors, buy or procure
a service coat years after buying blues, and never consider they need new pants.

There is also no alternative for many of the cadets who would be penalized by someone being focused on a color chart.
Many would go from having a coat to not having a coat, with no option due to cost. Excellent retention plan.

39-1 "requires" a lot of things, however an organization incapable of policing members who are 50 over in blues
isn't about to go around checking material tags.

In fact, saying anything is "required" by 39-1, which continues to pretend it's the sole authority on uniform wear,
is essentially moot, considering it still doesn't include any language whatsoever regarding ABUs, yet a lot of people wear them.

There is an attachment to 39-1 for regulations of wearing ABU's.

CAPJOE

Quote from: Eclipse on January 05, 2020, 06:57:24 pm
Quote from: arajca on January 05, 2020, 06:09:03 pmComparing a mismatched field uniform to a mismatched dress uniform is not a good comparison. The purpose of a dress uniform is to look professional. Mismatched uniforms do not.

Considering that the majority of CAP members will never wear a field uniform in the field, it's literally the exact same issue.

Material match is also not an issue specific to the old-style service coats as lots of members, especially seniors, buy or procure
a service coat years after buying blues, and never consider they need new pants.

There is also no alternative for many of the cadets who would be penalized by someone being focused on a color chart.
Many would go from having a coat to not having a coat, with no option due to cost. Excellent retention plan.

39-1 "requires" a lot of things, however an organization incapable of policing members who are 50 over in blues
isn't about to go around checking material tags.

In fact, saying anything is "required" by 39-1, which continues to pretend it's the sole authority on uniform wear,
is essentially moot, considering it still doesn't include any language whatsoever regarding ABUs, yet a lot of people wear them.

There is an attachment to 39-1 for regulations of wearing ABU's.
Quote from: PHall on January 13, 2020, 01:34:49 amThe average CAP member, cadet or senior, does not need a Service Dress Uniform.
I'd say about 80% of the times I've seen cadets wearing Service Dress it really wasn't needed.
Quote from: PHall on January 13, 2020, 01:34:49 amThe average CAP member, cadet or senior, does not need a Service Dress Uniform.
I'd say about 80% of the times I've seen cadets wearing Service Dress it really wasn't needed.
Quote from: PHall on January 13, 2020, 01:34:49 amThe average CAP member, cadet or senior, does not need a Service Dress Uniform.
I'd say about 80% of the times I've seen cadets wearing Service Dress it really wasn't needed.

Our cadets wear their Class A or B uniform for the first meeting of the month and when there is any public function.

Eclipse

Quote from: CAPJOE on February 08, 2020, 04:12:49 pmThere is an attachment to 39-1 for regulations of wearing ABU's.

No, there actually isn't.

You might be referring to an improperly published, regulation violating, unincorporated random
memo that popped up on the web in late Oct 2016, but that's certainly not an attachment to anything.



Paul Creed III

The thread is starting to drift like an Ohio winter. Let's steer it back to the topic of the service coats.
Lt Col Paul Creed III, CAP
National Headquarters Cyber Curriculum Specialist
National Headquarters Photography Working Group

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: I_Am_Twigs on January 15, 2020, 06:07:41 amAs for eliminating the service coat, I think it would be unnecessary, and quite frankly, unprofessional when attending social functions that CAP is involved with.  I would never
walk into a black tie event donning a white aviator shirt, even with a tie; it would be inappropriate.  As a cadet, it would most appropriate for me to attend such an event in the
AF Semi-Formal Uniform (it's only authorized for cadets).  Although it is a rare uniform to be seen worn by cadets, it is still worn by quite a few of us, myself included.

Have you been to many black tie non-CAP events? Have you been to many black tie CAP events?

Most people don't go to tuxedo formals on a regular basis.

Quote from: undefinedIn a squadron here in Idaho, they wear Service Dress Uniforms on a monthly basis (blues nights)

Outside of a training approach to conduct uniform inspections, it's really not necessary to dress up for the evening.

I_Am_Twigs

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on February 10, 2020, 03:57:43 pm
Quote from: I_Am_Twigs on January 15, 2020, 06:07:41 amAs for eliminating the service coat, I think it would be unnecessary, and quite frankly, unprofessional when attending social functions that CAP is involved with.  I would never
walk into a black tie event donning a white aviator shirt, even with a tie; it would be inappropriate.  As a cadet, it would most appropriate for me to attend such an event in the
AF Semi-Formal Uniform (it's only authorized for cadets).  Although it is a rare uniform to be seen worn by cadets, it is still worn by quite a few of us, myself included.

Have you been to many black tie non-CAP events? Have you been to many black tie CAP events?

Most people don't go to tuxedo formals on a regular basis.

I've been to a couple of black tie events involving CAP. Our wing's banquet and ball
during our wing conference is considered semi-formal, which would indicate that it's
essentially equivalent to a black tie event. Another event that I attended that would've
been appropriate for me to wear my semi-formal uniform would have been the ball that
was held shortly after the governor of Idaho's inauguration, although it is true that
such an event is not very likely to occur in most cadets' careers, it still would have
been an appropriate time nonetheless.


Quote from: TheSkyHornet on February 10, 2020, 03:57:43 pm
Quote from: undefinedIn a squadron here in Idaho, they wear Service Dress Uniforms on a monthly basis (blues nights)

Outside of a training approach to conduct uniform inspections, it's really not necessary to dress up for the evening.

I know, which would be why we don't do it at my squadron. I've never really understood
why they dress up so much, I've never seen a need for it unless it is for something more
formal such as a change of command or some other form of a formal ceremony.
C/Capt, CAP
"Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." --Winston Churchill

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: I_Am_Twigs on February 12, 2020, 12:59:36 am
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on February 10, 2020, 03:57:43 pm
Quote from: undefinedIn a squadron here in Idaho, they wear Service Dress Uniforms on a monthly basis (blues nights)

Outside of a training approach to conduct uniform inspections, it's really not necessary to dress up for the evening.

I know, which would be why we don't do it at my squadron. I've never really understood
why they dress up so much, I've never seen a need for it unless it is for something more
formal such as a change of command or some other form of a formal ceremony.

I find it's generally a "that's how we've always done it" thing or a matter of "We want the cadet staff to stand out."

I_Am_Twigs

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on February 13, 2020, 06:46:03 pm
Quote from: I_Am_Twigs on February 12, 2020, 12:59:36 am
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on February 10, 2020, 03:57:43 pm
Quote from: undefinedIn a squadron here in Idaho, they wear Service Dress Uniforms on a monthly basis (blues nights)

Outside of a training approach to conduct uniform inspections, it's really not necessary to dress up for the evening.

I know, which would be why we don't do it at my squadron. I've never really understood
why they dress up so much, I've never seen a need for it unless it is for something more
formal such as a change of command or some other form of a formal ceremony.

I find it's generally a "that's how we've always done it" thing or a matter of "We want the cadet staff to stand out."

So do I. I don't quite see a point in pestering them about it either because they're
able to provide the service jackets for everyone, so everyone is wearing them. They
also don't seem to like feedback from fellow cadets (we've disagreed in the past and
they insist their way is the way they've always done it), so I just don't bother
them---I would much rather focus on bettering my own squadron and getting my cadets
to stand-out, than argue with other people who don't seem to see the need to listen
to other ideas.

At my squadron, however, we are not able to provide our cadets with service jackets,
so none of us wear them unless there is an event that calls for us too, then we either
issue a temporary jacket, or go in what we have.
C/Capt, CAP
"Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." --Winston Churchill

Spam

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on February 13, 2020, 06:46:03 pm
Quote from: I_Am_Twigs on February 12, 2020, 12:59:36 am
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on February 10, 2020, 03:57:43 pm
Quote from: undefinedIn a squadron here in Idaho, they wear Service Dress Uniforms on a monthly basis (blues nights)

Outside of a training approach to conduct uniform inspections, it's really not necessary to dress up for the evening.

I know, which would be why we don't do it at my squadron. I've never really understood
why they dress up so much, I've never seen a need for it unless it is for something more
formal such as a change of command or some other form of a formal ceremony.

I find it's generally a "that's how we've always done it" thing or a matter of "We want the cadet staff to stand out."

The entire phenomenon can be summed up in two items:

1. Cosplay. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosplay
At an extreme, this CAP military Cosplay can verge on Stolen Valor, with CAP members who have never served parading around with chests full of medals, wearing full Blues to working meetings, etc. Cross reference: http://www.stolenvalor.com/target.cfm?source=link&sort=order
I've personally seen a CAP officer do this (Patrick AFB, 1989), carrying his mania for uniform cosplay into lies about flying F-4s over 'Nam, etc. (he refused to transition CPP fingerprint and was separated).

2. Star Bellied Sneetches from Dr. Seuss.
This describes the phenomenon of members preening as "Staff".
Watch the video and laugh at when Vanguard shows up to sell uniforms: 


V/r
Spam

Spam

Quote from: I_Am_Twigs on February 13, 2020, 11:16:04 pm
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on February 13, 2020, 06:46:03 pmAt my squadron, however, we are not able to provide our cadets with service jackets,
so none of us wear them unless there is an event that calls for us too, then we either
issue a temporary jacket, or go in what we have.

I honor you for this.
This, Sir, is the core value of Respect in practice.

R/s
Spam

I_Am_Twigs

Quote from: Spam on February 13, 2020, 11:26:25 pmThe entire phenomenon can be summed up in two items:

1. Cosplay. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosplay
At an extreme, this CAP military Cosplay can verge on Stolen Valor, with CAP members who have never served parading around with chests full of medals, wearing full Blues to working meetings, etc. Cross reference: http://www.stolenvalor.com/target.cfm?source=link&sort=order
I've personally seen a CAP officer do this (Patrick AFB, 1989), carrying his mania for uniform cosplay into lies about flying F-4s over 'Nam, etc. (he refused to transition CPP fingerprint and was separated).

2. Star Bellied Sneetches from Dr. Seuss.
This describes the phenomenon of members preening as "Staff".
Watch the video and laugh at when Vanguard shows up to sell uniforms: 


V/r
Spam

Oh my... I'm not sure that I like the moral of the story. Scamguard Vanguard
is the great, yet accidental equalizer?

With all jokes and satire aside... I believe that this "rankism" if you will, is a
problem that many squadrons have suffered from. When I was a National Blue Beret
there was a simple value that was engrained into my leadership style, and I believe
that it will stick with me throughout life. That value was humility; we are all human,
none of us are better than the other, we all make mistakes, albiet some worse than
others, we're all still human. Those of us who have the great privilege of leading
others must understand that fundamental truth and live without boasting or flaunting
our awards or authority.

That's my 2 cents.

Quote from: Spam on February 13, 2020, 11:27:35 pm
Quote from: I_Am_Twigs on February 13, 2020, 11:16:04 pm
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on February 13, 2020, 06:46:03 pmAt my squadron, however, we are not able to provide our cadets with service jackets,
so none of us wear them unless there is an event that calls for us too, then we either
issue a temporary jacket, or go in what we have.

I honor you for this.
This, Sir, is the core value of Respect in practice.

R/s
Spam

Thank you, Sir. I take the core values very seriously and do my best to live them to
the fullest.
C/Capt, CAP
"Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." --Winston Churchill

NIN

I had a crazy idea (I'm full of them, some of them are actually "not crazy") recently regarding cadets and "coats"

What about a version of the USAFA "A-jacket" for cadets up to, say, cadet officer?





Embroidered on CAP seal on the left breast. Last name tag on the right (just like the USAFA). Wing patch on the left sleeve. Maybe squadron patch on the right.

That's not a "winter" jacket (unless you added the quilted vest like the lightweight jacket), but it could certainly be a common "more than just Class B's" kind of thing. Its distinctive, and if the jacket I picked up from Macy's last year that looks almost exactly like it is any indication, it can be had cheaply (I paid $50)

After you become a cadet officer, regular wear of Class As is up to you.

Obviously, displayed rank is an issue, but you can discern that from the headgear, but the fleece-style velcro rank would work. :)
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
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I_Am_Twigs

Quote from: NIN on February 14, 2020, 02:57:18 pmWhat about a version of the USAFA "A-jacket" for cadets up to, say, cadet officer?

Embroidered on CAP seal on the left breast. Last name tag on the right (just like the USAFA). Wing patch on the left sleeve. Maybe squadron patch on the right.

That's not a "winter" jacket (unless you added the quilted vest like the lightweight jacket), but it could certainly be a common "more than just Class B's" kind of thing. Its distinctive, and if the jacket I picked up from Macy's last year that looks almost exactly like it is any indication, it can be had cheaply (I paid $50)

After you become a cadet officer, regular wear of Class As is up to you.

Obviously, displayed rank is an issue, but you can discern that from the headgear, but the fleece-style velcro rank would work. :)

Although I like the look of that, I do not think it can be a "more than class B's
kind of thing." The patches give it a less formal look, less formal than even class
B's. It also does not display the ribbons and awards like the class A's do, which is
kind of what makes it more formal when paired with the service coat.

The other issue with it is that we would have to add another uniform combination to
CAPM 39-1, which may take a while, especially considering we still have not gotten
our official ABU update...

I think the solution would be to issue service coats to committed cadets (provided
that you have a supply of said coats), or to issue temporary service coats for
activities that call for it (again, provided that you have a supply of them). If
you do not have a supply of them, then you may simply have to go without, after
all, it is not a required uniform
---it may just be more preferred for certain
occasions.
C/Capt, CAP
"Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." --Winston Churchill

PHall

IIRC the USAFA A jackets are about $100 each.

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: I_Am_Twigs on February 15, 2020, 01:41:06 amI think the solution would be to issue service coats to committed cadets

Define "committed" -- Who specifically gets a coat?

I_Am_Twigs

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on February 17, 2020, 03:06:42 pm
Quote from: I_Am_Twigs on February 15, 2020, 01:41:06 amI think the solution would be to issue service coats to committed cadets

Define "committed" -- Who specifically gets a coat?

Cadets who attend meetings regularly, attend activities regularly (they may need the
service coat at some), maintains a good and consistent attitude towards CAP.
Essentially anyone who shows a promising future in CAP.

I understand that it is extremely subjective, which is also another reason that my
squadron hesitates when issuing the service coats. And as I said earlier, even those
cadets who are committed only wear their service coat when needed, never at weekly
meetings. Temporarily issued service coats is typically our go-to option for most
cadets, the coats are always logged in and out, so we're always keeping track of them.
C/Capt, CAP
"Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." --Winston Churchill

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: I_Am_Twigs on February 17, 2020, 10:55:47 pmTemporarily issued service coats is typically our go-to option for most
cadets, the coats are always logged in and out, so we're always keeping track of them.

I think that's a much better method if you have a limited inventory.

Sign out the item, know who has what, and collect them when it's time.

We've done that with extra items for NCSAs. "Hey, you can borrow this for the month, but we want it back. If you want it full-time, you need to get your own."