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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: Find Ribbon
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imposter87
Recruit

Posts: 21

« Reply #20 on: March 29, 2019, 12:10:57 AM »

Please explain that last mesage I dont know what your referencing.
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LSThiker
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,859
Unit: Earth

« Reply #21 on: March 29, 2019, 12:42:18 AM »

Thank you for the reference.  However, CAPR 60-3 is not the prescribing directive for the award of medals and ribbons, CAPR 39-3 is the sole authority for their award.

If any Directorate wished to change the governing regulation to include additional individuals for an award, it would have to request and receive an approval to change CAPR 39-3, the prescribing directive.

Look at it this way; if I was the Directorate of Professional Development at National and decided one day to write into CAPR 50-17, that any member that served on a professional development course will be awarded an achievement award for their service.  And referenced CAPR 39-3, for the details on how to submit that award; would that now be a new standard?

No, it would not.  Further, CAPR 39-3, states just that in the opening preamble, “This regulation describes the medals, ribbons and certificates that may be awarded to Civil Air Patrol (CAP) members, establishes the requirements to qualify for them, explains the administrative procedures involved and prescribes how the medals and ribbons are worn.” (emphasis mine)

Even our parent organization, the USAF, follows the same logic.

Bottom-line; if it’s not written in the governing regulation, it isn’t proper or legal.

Except that your example is incorrect and the regs are not contradictory.

CAPR 60-3 describes the criteria for awarding the "Find" credit to members; CAPR 39-3 describes how to award the "Find" Ribbon for that "Find" criteria.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,886

« Reply #22 on: March 29, 2019, 12:56:07 AM »


Okay, you have just shown that if you rationalize enough, following the regulations isn’t necessary.  Until the governing directive is changed, wrong is wrong and any commander doing so violates the CAP Core Value of “Integrity”; nothing less.

I chose to follow the regulation.

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lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,698

« Reply #23 on: March 29, 2019, 04:43:48 AM »

Okay......let me try.

The TEAM makes the find.

Not just the Pilot, not just the Observer, not just the Scanner.

The crew on the flight that made the find.....did not end up in that grid in a vacuum. 

Other crews flew other grids, the planning staff kept track of all the intel, negative contact reports,  POD of all the grids searched and assigned what grids to search.
The Ops staff assigned the aircrew to the sortie.
The communications staff made sure that everyone could talk.
The Logistic staff made sure everyone has something to eat, fuel, lodging, etc.
The Finical Staff kept track of the money.
The PAO staff keep the public informed of the search status.

The IC ran the show.

The TEAM made the find.

It's not rocket science.

Sometimes the find happens with little or no support from a full on mission base staff.
In that case then only the aircrew/ground team gets the find.

Again.
It's not rocket science.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Dwight Dutton
Seasoned Member

Posts: 202

« Reply #24 on: March 29, 2019, 05:17:56 PM »

The mission gets the find, not individual crews.
You can't run a mission without the base staff, and how did they deactivate it from the air?
They should be on the PA.

I was wondering how the aircrew turned it off, unless it happened to be at the airport they were operating from - in which case why didn't they notice it then?
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PHall
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Posts: 6,549

« Reply #25 on: March 29, 2019, 05:44:44 PM »

The mission gets the find, not individual crews.
You can't run a mission without the base staff, and how did they deactivate it from the air?
They should be on the PA.

I was wondering how the aircrew turned it off, unless it happened to be at the airport they were operating from - in which case why didn't they notice it then?

There's more then a few missions where the aircrew isolated the ELT to an airport, landed and deactivated it. It's the IC's call.
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Luis R. Ramos
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Posts: 2,777

« Reply #26 on: March 29, 2019, 05:48:42 PM »

Dwight, happens often. And no, it does not necessarily is the airport the search plane starts from. Sometimes it is, sometimes it is not.
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Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer
imposter87
Recruit

Posts: 21

« Reply #27 on: March 29, 2019, 08:57:23 PM »

Well the IC made a bad call. Ruined moral, and now no one wants to do missions due to that decision. Someone made the comment above. You want bad retention rates? This is how you get them.

The plane would not have known where to fly without those GT's voiding out unknowns.

Now we have the new members questioning what the point is if only a handful of team members get recognition? They understand the mission itself is to save lives, but it is demoralizing I imagine to do a job and only have a few members of the team receive recognition.
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SarDragon
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Posts: 10,672
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« Reply #28 on: March 29, 2019, 09:05:36 PM »

OK, folks, let's lighten up a bit.

Sadly, we have 52 wings, and seemingly, at least 52 ways of handling finds. I'm not saying it's right, but it is reality.
I have been the "victim" of policy myself, one time twice on the same day. But it's OK, we got the errant ELTs shut off, and went on with life.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
CAP9907
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Posts: 173

« Reply #29 on: March 29, 2019, 09:28:56 PM »

Okay......let me try.

The TEAM makes the find.

Not just the Pilot, not just the Observer, not just the Scanner.

The crew on the flight that made the find.....did not end up in that grid in a vacuum. 

Other crews flew other grids, the planning staff kept track of all the intel, negative contact reports,  POD of all the grids searched and assigned what grids to search.
The Ops staff assigned the aircrew to the sortie.
The communications staff made sure that everyone could talk.
The Logistic staff made sure everyone has something to eat, fuel, lodging, etc.
The Finical Staff kept track of the money.
The PAO staff keep the public informed of the search status.

The IC ran the show.

The TEAM made the find.

It's not rocket science.

Sometimes the find happens with little or no support from a full on mission base staff.
In that case then only the aircrew/ground team gets the find.

Again.
It's not rocket science.

Agree, SAR has many moving parts and is very much a team effort (in CAP).. we need to understand that the guys in the field may not see all these parts, but they do exist and contribute to the overall mission.
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Fubar
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« Reply #30 on: March 30, 2019, 12:04:35 AM »

Do other SAR organizations track finds & saves like some sort of contest?
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CAP9907
Global Moderator

Posts: 173

« Reply #31 on: March 30, 2019, 12:15:41 AM »

Do other SAR organizations track finds & saves like some sort of contest?

Not sure it is a ‘contest’, but as volunteers it can sure be nice to be recognized for a job well done..
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,886

« Reply #32 on: March 30, 2019, 01:05:47 AM »

Do other SAR organizations track finds & saves like some sort of contest?

You will not find an LEO, FD or similar organization that does not rewards
its members and track operations in a similar fashion to CAP, if for
no other reason then self-preservation at funding time.
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Luis R. Ramos
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Posts: 2,777

« Reply #33 on: March 30, 2019, 01:24:37 AM »

Dont you remember those ribbons that some PD have on their pockets? It is not only for arrests. Includes other stuff.
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imposter87
Recruit

Posts: 21

« Reply #34 on: March 30, 2019, 03:34:56 AM »

I've worked in EMS, Fire, Law Enforcement, State Guards, and Security, not including other volunteer organizations. CAP is the only organization I have volunteered for that will reward individuals only, for a team effort. So this logic does boggle my mind.

By doing so, it all makes sense that every Wing I go to they cant get ground teams for training or actual.

You won't find that problem in any other public service organization where a team completes a mission, and part of the team is shunned.
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lordmonar
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Posts: 10,698

« Reply #35 on: March 30, 2019, 09:54:54 AM »

Do other SAR organizations track finds & saves like some sort of contest?
The FAA, Coast Guard, USAF, US ARMY, US NAVY....just about everyone does.

It is how you keep getting government money.
It is how you keep and retain people.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2019, 08:03:05 PM by SarDragon » Report to moderator   Logged
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
PhoenixRisen
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Posts: 704
Unit: The ▲

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« Reply #36 on: March 30, 2019, 02:19:40 PM »

Do other SAR organizations track finds & saves like some sort of contest?

No contest, just operational metrics.... like any other field, anywhere.  From an office manager tracking data entry speeds of their employees to a sales manager tracking numbers of sales by their representatives, tracking numbers of funds assists with evaluating operational effectiveness.  If we didn’t track our numbers, the government would laugh at us when it came time to request more funding.  I can definitely say metric tracking helps me in my own profession when requesting more money for a new tool or system (information security).

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Fubar
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Posts: 765

« Reply #37 on: April 01, 2019, 02:27:49 AM »

Ok, point taken on metrics used to request additional funding (do we admit when asking for that funding that nearly all those finds/saves come from the same three guys?), I still get the impression from discussions here that people get very competitive about the numbers internally.
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lordmonar
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Posts: 10,698

« Reply #38 on: April 01, 2019, 04:06:18 AM »

Ok, point taken on metrics used to request additional funding (do we admit when asking for that funding that nearly all those finds/saves come from the same three guys?), I still get the impression from discussions here that people get very competitive about the numbers internally.
I don't see that at all.

I do see people who DO contribute to the SAR mission getting bent out of shape because some wings don't share the love.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
GroundHawg
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Posts: 637

« Reply #39 on: April 01, 2019, 01:59:11 PM »

So I see that this is DEFINATELY up for interpretation.

The reason I asked this is because a crew from my Squadron spent 5hrs on a ground team trying to find an ELT. They did not find it, the aircrew found the ELT returning back to base.

The ground crew did not get credit so NOW the issue is they are demoralized due to time and personal time and money spent trying to accomplish the mission, so they are wondering why they are even on ground crew if aircrew gets all the credit for finds?

Any advice on how to keep the team together since if you are aircrew it is MUCH easier to find an ELT vs Ground search? Case in point 5hrs time on ground, an hour as aircrew=Aircrew credit.

A solution to this is the write them up for Achievement Awards. While not a find ribbon, it surely shows that their efforts are not unappreciated, and that their efforts will not go unnoticed or unrewarded. 
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: Find Ribbon
 


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