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imposter87
Recruit

Posts: 21

« on: March 28, 2019, 04:17:10 PM »

Had some SM's ask me about it today, I have never been in the position to receive one myself. So I cant do anything but look at the vagueness of the regs. But I have seen teams and all personnel receive it in similar situations.

The question is, does ALL CAP personnel who participated in the mission receive it? Or is it JUST for the team that found it?
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Pace
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« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2019, 04:46:37 PM »

That's up to the awarding authority (WG/CC, or if delegated, Grp/CC or IC), but typically the team/aircrew who makes the find and the base staff should receive credit.

EDITED to add: Other teams/aircrews on the mission would not receive the find credit.
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Lt Col, CAP
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Eclipse
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« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2019, 04:53:05 PM »

EDITED to add: Other teams/aircrews on the mission would not receive the find credit.

This is going to vary by wing, but in most cases it's the IC who is supposed to be preparing the PA
once the AFRCC awards the Find.

My experience has been that everyone signed into the mission gets a dec as in SAR it's just as important
to check off the places something isn't when trying to figure out where something is.

Also, there should be SAR ribbon sortie credits included in the PA for an actual, and those could
vary based on the type of crew / staff job you have.  Air and ground sorties are calc'ed differently then
base staff. (Air is WU / WD, Ground is GO / Come Back, 3 max per day)
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Dwight Dutton
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« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2019, 06:05:32 PM »

That's up to the awarding authority (WG/CC, or if delegated, Grp/CC or IC), but typically the team/aircrew who makes the find and the base staff should receive credit.
.

I only have two finds myself (non-distress ELT's) but I have been base staff on several.  I wasn't keeping track, didn't know I got credit for that.
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CAPOfficer
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« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2019, 07:06:58 PM »

Under the criteria for the award of the “Find Ribbon”, in CAPR39-3, I find no authorization for its award to any positions other than aircrew & ground teams.  It does specifically say that “both aircrew and ground team members may receive credit for finds.”  However, no mention in any form addresses a “Find” credit being awarded to base personnel.  I would ask someone to please provide the authority authorizing such an award if known.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2019, 07:23:15 PM »

CAPR 39-3, Page 14
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/R039_003_83459660D4F44.pdf

"d. Search “Find” Ribbon. Awarded by the wing commander (or a subordinate commander
if authority is delegated by the wing commander) to any CAP member of the wing making a find
(distress or non-distress) on a search and rescue mission.
A “distress find” is defined as one
involving downed aircraft or persons in distress. Normally, a definite search objective must have
been assigned, located and positively identified. All other finds will be classified as “non-distress,”
e.g., location of non-distress emergency locator transmitters (ELTs). The basic ribbon is awarded for
a first find (distress or non-distress). A bronze clasp is awarded for each additional distress find or
for each additional 20 non-distress finds. Both aircrew and ground team members may receive credit
for finds. Also, if desired, the Search “Find’ Ribbon may be painted on the aircraft in which the find
was made."


The verbiage regarding "air crew and ground teams" is not exclusive in nature.
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Pace
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« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2019, 07:27:09 PM »

Looks like I was right and wrong all at once. CAPR 60-3, 1-28 towards the end of the paragraph. Pretty much anyone signed into the mission may be awarded the find ribbon at the discretion of the wg/cc or designee.
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Luis R. Ramos
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« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2019, 07:38:38 PM »

One can argue the wording in the regulation regarding the Find is grounds to award one to Base personnel. But it is not clear cut.

However look at the wording for the Air Search and Rescue Ribbon.

Section 21 c. Air Search and Rescue Ribbon.... (2) Ground Personnel.  Credit given will be computed on the basis of time spent on a mission and the nature of the duties performed. (a) Ground personnel performing hazardous duties such as ground rescue or ground search, may be credited with one sortie for each 4 hours of actual participation, but not to exceed three sorties in any 24-hour period. (b) Ground personnel performing non-hazardous duties, such as base support or staff functions, may be credited with one sortie for each 8 hours of participation, but not to exceed two sorties for any 24-hour period.

This second ribbon is clear-cut. Not so the regulation on the Find. However, can you conceive of a situation under which you award credit for participation on a Search, but state "Sir we are awarding you credit for searching but no sir, we cannot award ya a Find as you were base support?"

If I were in that position, I would 1) request a search then 2) a Find.



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jeders
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« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2019, 08:09:39 PM »

CAPR 39-3, Page 14
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/R039_003_83459660D4F44.pdf

"d. Search “Find” Ribbon. Awarded by the wing commander (or a subordinate commander
if authority is delegated by the wing commander) to any CAP member of the wing making a find
(distress or non-distress) on a search and rescue mission.
A “distress find” is defined as one
involving downed aircraft or persons in distress. Normally, a definite search objective must have
been assigned, located and positively identified. All other finds will be classified as “non-distress,”
e.g., location of non-distress emergency locator transmitters (ELTs). The basic ribbon is awarded for
a first find (distress or non-distress). A bronze clasp is awarded for each additional distress find or
for each additional 20 non-distress finds. Both aircrew and ground team members may receive credit
for finds. Also, if desired, the Search “Find’ Ribbon may be painted on the aircraft in which the find
was made."


The verbiage regarding "air crew and ground teams" is not exclusive in nature.

Except that mission staff do not make finds. Also, there's the following paragraphs which limits credit to members of the team/aircrew since giving credit to others is not mentioned.

Quote
(2) Finds by Aircrew Members. In case of a search and rescue find by aircraft, a ribbon will be awarded to all crew members. This applies to both “find and rescue” operations and “find and report” operations. For example, when the search objective is sighted, rescue by aircraft may be impossible so the crew reports the find by relaying the information to an official ground station. A bronze three-bladed propeller device will be worn centered on the Search “Find” Ribbon earned as aircrew members.

(3) Finds by Ground Personnel. If the find is made by search and rescue ground teams, the ribbon will be awarded to all members of the team which locates the objective. Ground personnel will wear the Search “Find” Ribbon without the propeller clasp.

There's nothing in there about members not making the find (mission staff, other teams, etc.) getting credit.
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Pace
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« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2019, 08:16:47 PM »

Let me repeat.


CAPR 60-3, para 1-28
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Lt Col, CAP
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LSThiker
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« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2019, 08:28:38 PM »

Let me repeat.


CAPR 60-3, para 1-28

Here is a copy of the quote; maybe that will make it more "visible".

Quote
1-28. Criteria for FIND Credit. A FIND is awarded by the wing commander or higher commander (or a subordinate commander if authority is delegated by the wing commander) to
any CAP member of the wing, and is classified as distress or non-distress. A distress FIND is defined as one involving downed aircraft or persons in distress. Normally a definite search
objective must have been assigned, located, and positively identified. All other finds will be classified as non-distress, e.g., location of distress beacons accidentally activated. Credit
towards FIND ribbons is normally given to the aircrew and/or ground team that located the objective; however, a search force including incident staff and other aircrews and teams involved
may be credited with a FIND
. More specific guidance for issuance of find ribbons can be found in CAPR 39-3, Award of CAP Medals, Ribbons, and Certificates
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Dwight Dutton
Seasoned Member

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« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2019, 10:29:54 PM »

Let me repeat.CAPR 60-3, para 1-28

Here is a copy of the quote; maybe that will make it more "visible".

Quote
1-28. Criteria for FIND Credit. A FIND is awarded by the wing commander or higher commander (or a subordinate commander if authority is delegated by the wing commander) to
any CAP member of the wing, and is classified as distress or non-distress. A distress FIND is defined as one involving downed aircraft or persons in distress. Normally a definite search
objective must have been assigned, located, and positively identified. All other finds will be classified as non-distress, e.g., location of distress beacons accidentally activated. Credit
towards FIND ribbons is normally given to the aircrew and/or ground team that located the objective; however, a search force including incident staff and other aircrews and teams involved
may be credited with a FIND
. More specific guidance for issuance of find ribbons can be found in CAPR 39-3, Award of CAP Medals, Ribbons, and Certificates

I think I see a distinction between distress finds and non-distress finds.  On the latter, only the persons actually making the find get the ribbon.  However on an actual search involving real people, base staff DO count.  At least that's how I read this.
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CAPOfficer
Member

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« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2019, 10:52:08 PM »

Thank you for the reference.  However, CAPR 60-3 is not the prescribing directive for the award of medals and ribbons, CAPR 39-3 is the sole authority for their award.

If any Directorate wished to change the governing regulation to include additional individuals for an award, it would have to request and receive an approval to change CAPR 39-3, the prescribing directive.

Look at it this way; if I was the Directorate of Professional Development at National and decided one day to write into CAPR 50-17, that any member that served on a professional development course will be awarded an achievement award for their service.  And referenced CAPR 39-3, for the details on how to submit that award; would that now be a new standard?

No, it would not.  Further, CAPR 39-3, states just that in the opening preamble, “This regulation describes the medals, ribbons and certificates that may be awarded to Civil Air Patrol (CAP) members, establishes the requirements to qualify for them, explains the administrative procedures involved and prescribes how the medals and ribbons are worn.” (emphasis mine)

Even our parent organization, the USAF, follows the same logic.

Bottom-line; if it’s not written in the governing regulation, it isn’t proper or legal.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2019, 11:00:57 PM »

Bottom-line; if it’s not written in the governing regulation, it isn’t proper or legal.

You know that that is not how CAP actually works.

39-1 makes the same assertion and that is also demonstrably false.
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imposter87
Recruit

Posts: 21

« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2019, 11:18:41 PM »

So I see that this is DEFINATELY up for interpretation.

The reason I asked this is because a crew from my Squadron spent 5hrs on a ground team trying to find an ELT. They did not find it, the aircrew found the ELT returning back to base.

The ground crew did not get credit so NOW the issue is they are demoralized due to time and personal time and money spent trying to accomplish the mission, so they are wondering why they are even on ground crew if aircrew gets all the credit for finds?

Any advice on how to keep the team together since if you are aircrew it is MUCH easier to find an ELT vs Ground search? Case in point 5hrs time on ground, an hour as aircrew=Aircrew credit.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2019, 11:20:43 PM »

The mission gets the find, not individual crews.
You can't run a mission without the base staff, and how did they deactivate it from the air?

They should be on the PA.

There is no justifiable reason to be stingy with Finds, especially in today's CAP where they are
increasingly rare.
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imposter87
Recruit

Posts: 21

« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2019, 11:21:32 PM »

They landed at the airport (in a different wing) and deactivated it.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2019, 11:26:48 PM »

They landed at the airport (in a different wing) and deactivated it.

Fair enough, but it's still not a contest or a race, it's a team effort.
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imposter87
Recruit

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« Reply #18 on: March 28, 2019, 11:51:52 PM »

Agreed. Not a race, but that is the way it is coming off to the ground crews since they cant get to the area as fast as aircrew. Makes since?
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CAPOfficer
Member

Posts: 70

« Reply #19 on: March 29, 2019, 12:04:08 AM »


Okay, you have just shown that if you rationalize enough, following the regulations isn’t necessary.  Until the governing directive is changed, wrong is wrong and any commander doing so violates the CAP Core Value of “Integrity”; nothing less.

I chose to follow the regulation.
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: Find Ribbon
 


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