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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: Cadet Semi-formal Dress Uniform (Old Style) with shoulder cord or without?
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Author Topic: Cadet Semi-formal Dress Uniform (Old Style) with shoulder cord or without?  (Read 2607 times)
Picy3
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Unit: PCR-WA-015

« on: December 14, 2018, 02:13:15 AM »

I have recently put together this by going off of 39-1 but I saw no mention there of whether or not you can wear your shoulder cords  ??? so I thought I'd ask here real quick for those who may already know. I have the green and white cord (At our squadron its the Cadet of the quarter cord, just to clarify because I've noticed some other squadrons don't use the same stuff). Anyways I assume you can't because there are pictures with the other uniforms with it on them but not on this one but I wanted to just have this clarified because if I can have it I definitely will.
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Cadet Second Lieutenant who finally passed his Mitchell.

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BraveRifles19D
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« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2018, 02:23:59 AM »

No. 39-1 Section 9.3
9.3. Shoulder Cords. The following shoulder cords are only authorized for wear by cadets. Not more
than one cord may be worn at one time. Shoulder cords may be worn by cadets at all times in the Service
Dress (Class A) or Blue Service (Class B) uniforms, and will be worn aligned along the left shoulder
seam. If the garment has an epaulet, the cord will be worn underneath the epaulet. Shoulder cords will
not be worn on Working Uniforms (see Table 1-1).

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lordmonar
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« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2018, 08:44:00 AM »

Well......39-1 does not mention Semi Formal Uniforms.

So...by the letter of the law....the answer is no.

However......and this is just my....you will need to follow up this question with your chain of command.   I think para 9.3 is in error in that I can't see any reason why we would restrict wearing cords on Semi Formal Uniforms.

I will take this up with the uniform board member next chance I get.

In the mean time you take it up with your chain.

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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
BraveRifles19D
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« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2018, 11:19:22 AM »

Well......39-1 does not mention Semi Formal Uniforms.

So...by the letter of the law....the answer is no.

However......and this is just my....you will need to follow up this question with your chain of command.   I think para 9.3 is in error in that I can't see any reason why we would restrict wearing cords on Semi Formal Uniforms.

I will take this up with the uniform board member next chance I get.

In the mean time you take it up with your chain.
39-1 page 28 section 4.1.3 covers semi-formal uniforms. And shoulder cords an not worn on that uniform. Neither are name plates or covers.

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OldGuy
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« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2018, 09:58:11 PM »

Neither are name plates or covers.
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"No headgear is required. " That does NOT say no cover, it clearly implies optional. Nor does that section address cords in any way that I can see.
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PHall
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« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2018, 11:01:06 PM »

Neither are name plates or covers.
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"No headgear is required. " That does NOT say no cover, it clearly implies optional. Nor does that section address cords in any way that I can see.

Paraphrasing CAPM 39-1, Para 1.1.2.1 If it's not authorized in this manual then you can not wear it.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2018, 11:08:55 PM »

Paraphrasing CAPM 39-1, Para 1.1.2.1 If it's not authorized in this manual then you can not wear it.

Despite its assertion as such, 39-1 is not the "sole source for wear instructions and authorized items for various uniform combinations as
prescribed within..."
and frankly never has been in the 19+ years I've been in.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2018, 11:13:08 PM by Eclipse » Report to moderator   Logged


BraveRifles19D
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« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2018, 12:05:32 AM »

Neither are name plates or covers.
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"No headgear is required. " That does NOT say no cover, it clearly implies optional. Nor does that section address cords in any way that I can see.
4.1.3.1.6. No headgear is required. The only authorized headgear for the Semi-
formal uniform is the blue winter cap. The blue winter cap will only be worn with a full-length
outergarment

My mistake, the only headgear that is authorize with the semi-formal uniform is the Blue Winter hat, and that only with the full lenght outer garment. So that means no flight cap or service cap. And the shoulder cord is in chapter 9. Says class A or B uniform only, which is not the semi-formal. It's clear as day in black and white.

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OldGuy
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« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2018, 02:07:40 AM »

It's clear as day in black and white.

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Nope. You are reading into the manual words that are not there. Just like you did with headgear.
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OldGuy
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« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2018, 02:08:08 AM »

Paraphrasing CAPM 39-1, Para 1.1.2.1 If it's not authorized in this manual then you can not wear it.

Despite its assertion as such, 39-1 is not the "sole source for wear instructions and authorized items for various uniform combinations as
prescribed within..."
and frankly never has been in the 19+ years I've been in.
Again, Eclipse is right.
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BraveRifles19D
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« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2018, 02:23:08 AM »

It's clear as day in black and white.

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Nope. You are reading into the manual words that are not there. Just like you did with headgear.
So what do you suggest wearing with the semi-formal uniform?

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Eclipse
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« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2018, 02:36:02 AM »

So what do you suggest wearing with the semi-formal uniform?

A pleasant, respectful smile.

Shoulder cords are not required, regardless, and since there is a question, just don't wear it.
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OldGuy
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« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2018, 02:42:34 AM »

It's clear as day in black and white.

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Nope. You are reading into the manual words that are not there. Just like you did with headgear.
So what do you suggest wearing with the semi-formal uniform?

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Were I still a cadet entitled to the cord, I'd wear it. If a question was asked in the real world, I'd ask my Cadet chain of command for guidance and I'd follow that. But in the real world, since the question would not come up - I'd wear the cord. And probably my flight cap.
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Mitchell 1969
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« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2018, 10:58:31 AM »

Iíve seen cords worn with the cadet semi- formal uniform since 1968. Iíve worn them myself with that uniform.

I canít imagine what possible issue, concern or decision would have resulted in a decision to disallow them.

Iím putting money on the mention of them being either an oversight, or a simple assumption that the cords didnít need to be mentioned, as the coat that is worn doesnít change anything else other than the name plate removal to ďsemi-formalizeĒ it.

At any rate, we are all guessing and supposing. This needs to be addressed by the NUC.


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Luis R. Ramos
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« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2018, 07:28:02 PM »

To me it is as clear as day.

The cords are formal wear. So is the name plate. And so is the cover. So if you remove stuff to "de-formalize it," so you should remove the cords as well.

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PHall
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« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2018, 08:25:40 PM »

To me it is as clear as day.

The cords are formal wear. So is the name plate. And so is the cover. So if you remove stuff to "de-formalize it," so you should remove the cords as well.

No, that's not right. The name plate and cover are not worn with the Semi-Formal Dress Uniform because they are not worn with Mess Dress.
Both are worn on occasions where a tuxedo would be worn by civilians.
In the real military Semi-Formal Dress is the enlisted equivalent to Mess Dress. Enlisted are not required to have a Mess Dress while officers are required to have it.
In CAP Semi-Formal Dress is reserved for cadets and Mess Dress is worn by seniors only.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2018, 08:44:25 PM »

It's not an "oversight" - the language and photos are essentially the same going back to at least 1997.
If it's an oversight, it's an oversight that has existed for over 20 years.

(Though humorously, in the 2005 ver of 39-1, the photo of the cadet wearing a cord shows it indirectly placed).

No cords with the semi-formal.

Also, no one will care either way.
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i_am_a_politician
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« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2018, 05:14:06 PM »

If I may, the 39-1 slightly contradicts itself here.  Sure, the regs donít explicitly say what you can and canít do.  However, it does say that the Semi-Formal Uniform is ďworn in the same manner as Class AĒ.  The shoulder cord section states that it is only for the Class A and B uniforms.  With that said, I have interpreted this as the Semi-Formal uniform being a modified version of the Class A.  I personally would not wear a shoulder cord mainly because they do not look good on the new style.

This is probably (wishful thinking here) one of the things National will put in the new 39-1.
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2018, 03:44:22 AM »

Cords are not worn for mess attire.

The CAP Semi-Formal is the cadet mess uniform.
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Mitchell 1969
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« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2018, 08:23:25 AM »

Cords are not worn for mess attire.

The CAP Semi-Formal is the cadet mess uniform.

It can't be both.  It's either a semi-formal version of a service uniform or it is a mess dress uniform.Ive seen nothing, anywhere, that refers to the semi-formal uniform as a mess dress uniform. Have you?

It's not a mess dress uniform, otherwise it would be called that. That won't happen, because we already have one, and the semi-formal dress uniform looks nothing like the mess dress uniform.

At BEST, it could be said that the semi-formal uniform is an alternative to the mess-dress uniform. Sort of like how Tofu is an alternative to meat.  But try as you might, you can't call tofu by any meat name - because it isn't.
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Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
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