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Author Topic: Cadet Semi-formal Dress Uniform (Old Style) with shoulder cord or without?  (Read 2615 times)
Picy3
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« on: December 14, 2018, 02:13:15 AM »

I have recently put together this by going off of 39-1 but I saw no mention there of whether or not you can wear your shoulder cords  ??? so I thought I'd ask here real quick for those who may already know. I have the green and white cord (At our squadron its the Cadet of the quarter cord, just to clarify because I've noticed some other squadrons don't use the same stuff). Anyways I assume you can't because there are pictures with the other uniforms with it on them but not on this one but I wanted to just have this clarified because if I can have it I definitely will.
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BraveRifles19D
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« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2018, 02:23:59 AM »

No. 39-1 Section 9.3
9.3. Shoulder Cords. The following shoulder cords are only authorized for wear by cadets. Not more
than one cord may be worn at one time. Shoulder cords may be worn by cadets at all times in the Service
Dress (Class A) or Blue Service (Class B) uniforms, and will be worn aligned along the left shoulder
seam. If the garment has an epaulet, the cord will be worn underneath the epaulet. Shoulder cords will
not be worn on Working Uniforms (see Table 1-1).

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lordmonar
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« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2018, 08:44:00 AM »

Well......39-1 does not mention Semi Formal Uniforms.

So...by the letter of the law....the answer is no.

However......and this is just my....you will need to follow up this question with your chain of command.   I think para 9.3 is in error in that I can't see any reason why we would restrict wearing cords on Semi Formal Uniforms.

I will take this up with the uniform board member next chance I get.

In the mean time you take it up with your chain.

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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
BraveRifles19D
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« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2018, 11:19:22 AM »

Well......39-1 does not mention Semi Formal Uniforms.

So...by the letter of the law....the answer is no.

However......and this is just my....you will need to follow up this question with your chain of command.   I think para 9.3 is in error in that I can't see any reason why we would restrict wearing cords on Semi Formal Uniforms.

I will take this up with the uniform board member next chance I get.

In the mean time you take it up with your chain.
39-1 page 28 section 4.1.3 covers semi-formal uniforms. And shoulder cords an not worn on that uniform. Neither are name plates or covers.

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OldGuy
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« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2018, 09:58:11 PM »

Neither are name plates or covers.
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"No headgear is required. " That does NOT say no cover, it clearly implies optional. Nor does that section address cords in any way that I can see.
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PHall
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« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2018, 11:01:06 PM »

Neither are name plates or covers.
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"No headgear is required. " That does NOT say no cover, it clearly implies optional. Nor does that section address cords in any way that I can see.

Paraphrasing CAPM 39-1, Para 1.1.2.1 If it's not authorized in this manual then you can not wear it.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2018, 11:08:55 PM »

Paraphrasing CAPM 39-1, Para 1.1.2.1 If it's not authorized in this manual then you can not wear it.

Despite its assertion as such, 39-1 is not the "sole source for wear instructions and authorized items for various uniform combinations as
prescribed within..."
and frankly never has been in the 19+ years I've been in.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2018, 11:13:08 PM by Eclipse » Report to moderator   Logged


BraveRifles19D
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« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2018, 12:05:32 AM »

Neither are name plates or covers.
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"No headgear is required. " That does NOT say no cover, it clearly implies optional. Nor does that section address cords in any way that I can see.
4.1.3.1.6. No headgear is required. The only authorized headgear for the Semi-
formal uniform is the blue winter cap. The blue winter cap will only be worn with a full-length
outergarment

My mistake, the only headgear that is authorize with the semi-formal uniform is the Blue Winter hat, and that only with the full lenght outer garment. So that means no flight cap or service cap. And the shoulder cord is in chapter 9. Says class A or B uniform only, which is not the semi-formal. It's clear as day in black and white.

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OldGuy
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« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2018, 02:07:40 AM »

It's clear as day in black and white.

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Nope. You are reading into the manual words that are not there. Just like you did with headgear.
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OldGuy
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« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2018, 02:08:08 AM »

Paraphrasing CAPM 39-1, Para 1.1.2.1 If it's not authorized in this manual then you can not wear it.

Despite its assertion as such, 39-1 is not the "sole source for wear instructions and authorized items for various uniform combinations as
prescribed within..."
and frankly never has been in the 19+ years I've been in.
Again, Eclipse is right.
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BraveRifles19D
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« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2018, 02:23:08 AM »

It's clear as day in black and white.

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Nope. You are reading into the manual words that are not there. Just like you did with headgear.
So what do you suggest wearing with the semi-formal uniform?

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Eclipse
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« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2018, 02:36:02 AM »

So what do you suggest wearing with the semi-formal uniform?

A pleasant, respectful smile.

Shoulder cords are not required, regardless, and since there is a question, just don't wear it.
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OldGuy
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« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2018, 02:42:34 AM »

It's clear as day in black and white.

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Nope. You are reading into the manual words that are not there. Just like you did with headgear.
So what do you suggest wearing with the semi-formal uniform?

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Were I still a cadet entitled to the cord, I'd wear it. If a question was asked in the real world, I'd ask my Cadet chain of command for guidance and I'd follow that. But in the real world, since the question would not come up - I'd wear the cord. And probably my flight cap.
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Mitchell 1969
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« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2018, 10:58:31 AM »

I’ve seen cords worn with the cadet semi- formal uniform since 1968. I’ve worn them myself with that uniform.

I can’t imagine what possible issue, concern or decision would have resulted in a decision to disallow them.

I’m putting money on the mention of them being either an oversight, or a simple assumption that the cords didn’t need to be mentioned, as the coat that is worn doesn’t change anything else other than the name plate removal to “semi-formalize” it.

At any rate, we are all guessing and supposing. This needs to be addressed by the NUC.


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Luis R. Ramos
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« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2018, 07:28:02 PM »

To me it is as clear as day.

The cords are formal wear. So is the name plate. And so is the cover. So if you remove stuff to "de-formalize it," so you should remove the cords as well.

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PHall
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« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2018, 08:25:40 PM »

To me it is as clear as day.

The cords are formal wear. So is the name plate. And so is the cover. So if you remove stuff to "de-formalize it," so you should remove the cords as well.

No, that's not right. The name plate and cover are not worn with the Semi-Formal Dress Uniform because they are not worn with Mess Dress.
Both are worn on occasions where a tuxedo would be worn by civilians.
In the real military Semi-Formal Dress is the enlisted equivalent to Mess Dress. Enlisted are not required to have a Mess Dress while officers are required to have it.
In CAP Semi-Formal Dress is reserved for cadets and Mess Dress is worn by seniors only.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2018, 08:44:25 PM »

It's not an "oversight" - the language and photos are essentially the same going back to at least 1997.
If it's an oversight, it's an oversight that has existed for over 20 years.

(Though humorously, in the 2005 ver of 39-1, the photo of the cadet wearing a cord shows it indirectly placed).

No cords with the semi-formal.

Also, no one will care either way.
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i_am_a_politician
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« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2018, 05:14:06 PM »

If I may, the 39-1 slightly contradicts itself here.  Sure, the regs don’t explicitly say what you can and can’t do.  However, it does say that the Semi-Formal Uniform is “worn in the same manner as Class A”.  The shoulder cord section states that it is only for the Class A and B uniforms.  With that said, I have interpreted this as the Semi-Formal uniform being a modified version of the Class A.  I personally would not wear a shoulder cord mainly because they do not look good on the new style.

This is probably (wishful thinking here) one of the things National will put in the new 39-1.
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2018, 03:44:22 AM »

Cords are not worn for mess attire.

The CAP Semi-Formal is the cadet mess uniform.
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Mitchell 1969
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« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2018, 08:23:25 AM »

Cords are not worn for mess attire.

The CAP Semi-Formal is the cadet mess uniform.

It can't be both.  It's either a semi-formal version of a service uniform or it is a mess dress uniform.Ive seen nothing, anywhere, that refers to the semi-formal uniform as a mess dress uniform. Have you?

It's not a mess dress uniform, otherwise it would be called that. That won't happen, because we already have one, and the semi-formal dress uniform looks nothing like the mess dress uniform.

At BEST, it could be said that the semi-formal uniform is an alternative to the mess-dress uniform. Sort of like how Tofu is an alternative to meat.  But try as you might, you can't call tofu by any meat name - because it isn't.
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« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2018, 12:29:16 PM »

But cadets can't wear mess dress.  And seniors can't wear semi - formal. So its not really an "alternative" uniform for either membership category.

Semi - formal,  for cadets, is the ]functional equivalent of mess dress. Not an alternative to it.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2018, 03:07:41 PM »

But cadets can't wear mess dress.  And seniors can't wear semi - formal. So its not really an "alternative" uniform for either membership category.

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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2018, 03:54:09 PM »

Cords are not worn for mess attire.

The CAP Semi-Formal is the cadet mess uniform.

It can't be both.  It's either a semi-formal version of a service uniform or it is a mess dress uniform.Ive seen nothing, anywhere, that refers to the semi-formal uniform as a mess dress uniform. Have you?

It's not a mess dress uniform, otherwise it would be called that. That won't happen, because we already have one, and the semi-formal dress uniform looks nothing like the mess dress uniform.

At BEST, it could be said that the semi-formal uniform is an alternative to the mess-dress uniform. Sort of like how Tofu is an alternative to meat.  But try as you might, you can't call tofu by any meat name - because it isn't.

It is both, because cadets don't have a mess dress uniform.

Mess dress is for officers, whereas semi-formal is worn by enlisted (enlisted may also opt to purchase the mess uniform, which is a completely different style/cut than semi-formal).

Semi-formal uniforms are the same blazer/service coat worn in Class As but with a different combination of accoutrements.

If it's a tuxedo event...say, cocktail banquet...officers wear mess, enlisted wear semi-formal.

In CAP, cadets (who traditionally wear the enlisted-style Air Force uniform) wear semi-formal, since that's the traditional enlisted mess uniform. Senior members (who traditionally wear the officer-style Air Force uniform) wear mess dress. It makes perfect sense until you start to look at senior member NCOs, who don't have a mess uniform mentioned in CAPM 39-1 (although, they would traditionally wear their service coat in semi-formal combination...unless they purchase a mess uniform).

If we really want to get particular here, the whole basis is to maximize uniformity and minimize cost in an organization that has H&W standards for seniors but not for cadets, so seniors have two uniform combinations, whereas cadets do not. Cadets have one uniform they wear so that as they progress, they don't have to purchase a bunch of other stuff. Just as cadets don't get flight caps with silver braiding or Class As with sleeve braids.

There's a reason why we don't see a lot of semi-formal events: it's a universal PITA. Few cadets have semi-formal attire. Few seniors have semi-formal attire. None of us get a clothing allowance.

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THRAWN
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« Reply #23 on: December 17, 2018, 04:26:11 PM »

I love threads like this. Gives me an excuse to read some humor while listening to the Benny Hill Theme....
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« Reply #24 on: December 17, 2018, 04:35:57 PM »

But cadets can't wear mess dress.  And seniors can't wear semi - formal. So its not really an "alternative" uniform for either membership category.



@#$%. I meant USAF-style semi-formal.
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arajca
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« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2018, 06:42:43 PM »

But cadets can't wear mess dress.  And seniors can't wear semi - formal. So its not really an "alternative" uniform for either membership category.

@#$%. I meant USAF-style semi-formal.
You've been around here long enough to know at least 5 or 6 folks would pick up the gauntlet... >:D
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NIN
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« Reply #26 on: December 17, 2018, 07:26:15 PM »

You've been around here long enough to know at least 5 or 6 folks would pick up the gauntlet... >:D

Truth.
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baronet68
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« Reply #27 on: December 17, 2018, 07:36:29 PM »



Looks like this is one situation that would allow cadets (aged 18+) to wear a miniature medal.  Right?
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« Reply #28 on: December 17, 2018, 08:34:12 PM »

I may be wrong here, but only if they don't meet height/weight standards. Cadets are required to wear the USAF style uniform unless they're overweight and even then must still adhere to grooming standards.
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« Reply #29 on: December 17, 2018, 08:40:37 PM »

I may be wrong here, but only if they don't meet height/weight standards. Cadets are required to wear the USAF style uniform unless they're overweight and even then must still adhere to grooming standards.

And over 18

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HandsomeWalt_USMC
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« Reply #30 on: December 17, 2018, 08:42:16 PM »

Yes sir, I thought that was addressed by the post above mine. I had to look into this recently as I have a cadet turning 18 this year who will likely be in corporates.
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« Reply #31 on: December 17, 2018, 09:29:22 PM »

Yes sir, I thought that was addressed by the post above mine. I had to look into this recently as I have a cadet turning 18 this year who will likely be in corporates.

Be prepared to get some flak for it if you make your 18 year old cadet start wearing corporates. It isn't done that often and the "experts" will say you can't do it.
Be gentle with them for they are misguided, misinformed and just plain wrong.
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #32 on: December 17, 2018, 09:30:01 PM »

Yes sir, I thought that was addressed by the post above mine. I had to look into this recently as I have a cadet turning 18 this year who will likely be in corporates.

Not to side track too much, but I appreciate that this is a consideration BEFORE cadets turn 18. It helps to be a little proactive in reminding them: "Hey, you're turning 18 soon. So let's go over some things here, including the uniform..."

It's an awkward conversation that people just don't want to have, because the end result will go one of two ways: they're offended/upset, or they're motivated to drop weight.

Yes sir, I thought that was addressed by the post above mine. I had to look into this recently as I have a cadet turning 18 this year who will likely be in corporates.

Be prepared to get some flak for it if you make your 18 year old cadet start wearing corporates. It isn't done that often and the "experts" will say you can't do it.
Be gentle with them for they are misguided, misinformed and just plain wrong.

This
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Mitchell 1969
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« Reply #33 on: December 18, 2018, 01:46:59 AM »

But cadets can't wear mess dress.  And seniors can't wear semi - formal. So its not really an "alternative" uniform for either membership category.

Semi - formal,  for cadets, is the ]functional equivalent of mess dress. Not an alternative to it.

Seniors CAN wear "semi-formal." In fact, there are two exceptions:  1) NCO's and 2) All SMs - but It just looks different than the "cadet Semi-formal." (It's the blazer, which leads to another issue - blazers aren't considered to be civilian semi-formal.  Semi-formal in civilian terms would be a tux.  But that's another story).

Yes, I like the bit about "functional equivalent" as opposed to my "alternative." But functional equivalent can only mean for purpose or occasion, and doesn't determine what items are removed.  With the language already cited that the semi-formal is worn in the same manner as the service coat, but minus the SPECIFICALLY mentioned nameplate and the SPECIFICALLY mentioned swapping out of the blue shirt and blue tie to white shirt and black bow tie, there is NOTHING that says that the shoulder cords need be removed.
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lordmonar
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« Reply #34 on: December 18, 2018, 06:46:47 AM »

Cords are not worn for mess attire.

The CAP Semi-Formal is the cadet mess uniform.

It can't be both.  It's either a semi-formal version of a service uniform or it is a mess dress uniform.Ive seen nothing, anywhere, that refers to the semi-formal uniform as a mess dress uniform. Have you?

It's not a mess dress uniform, otherwise it would be called that. That won't happen, because we already have one, and the semi-formal dress uniform looks nothing like the mess dress uniform.

At BEST, it could be said that the semi-formal uniform is an alternative to the mess-dress uniform. Sort of like how Tofu is an alternative to meat.  But try as you might, you can't call tofu by any meat name - because it isn't.

It is both, because cadets don't have a mess dress uniform.

Mess dress is for officers Senior Members , whereas semi-formal is worn by enlisted (enlisted may also opt to purchase the mess uniform, which is a completely different style/cut than semi-formal)cadets.

Semi-formal uniforms are the same blazer/service coat worn in Class As but with a different combination of accoutrements.

If it's a tuxedo event...say, cocktail banquet...officers wear mess, enlisted wear semi-formal.

In CAP, cadets (who traditionally wear the enlisted-style Air Force uniform) wear semi-formal, since that's the traditional enlisted mess uniform. Senior members (who traditionally wear the officer-style Air Force uniform) wear mess dress. It makes perfect sense until you start to look at senior member NCOs, who don't have a mess uniform mentioned in CAPM 39-1 (although, they would traditionally wear their service coat in semi-formal combination...unless they purchase a mess uniform).

If we really want to get particular here, the whole basis is to maximize uniformity and minimize cost in an organization that has H&W standards for seniors but not for cadets, so seniors have two uniform combinations, whereas cadets do not. Cadets have one uniform they wear so that as they progress, they don't have to purchase a bunch of other stuff. Just as cadets don't get flight caps with silver braiding or Class As with sleeve braids.

There's a reason why we don't see a lot of semi-formal events: it's a universal PITA. Few cadets have semi-formal attire. Few seniors have semi-formal attire. None of us get a clothing allowance.

FTFY
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #35 on: December 18, 2018, 11:21:10 AM »

Cords are not worn for mess attire.

The CAP Semi-Formal is the cadet mess uniform.

It can't be both.  It's either a semi-formal version of a service uniform or it is a mess dress uniform.Ive seen nothing, anywhere, that refers to the semi-formal uniform as a mess dress uniform. Have you?

It's not a mess dress uniform, otherwise it would be called that. That won't happen, because we already have one, and the semi-formal dress uniform looks nothing like the mess dress uniform.

At BEST, it could be said that the semi-formal uniform is an alternative to the mess-dress uniform. Sort of like how Tofu is an alternative to meat.  But try as you might, you can't call tofu by any meat name - because it isn't.

It is both, because cadets don't have a mess dress uniform.

Mess dress is for officers Senior Members , whereas semi-formal is worn by enlisted (enlisted may also opt to purchase the mess uniform, which is a completely different style/cut than semi-formal)cadets.

Semi-formal uniforms are the same blazer/service coat worn in Class As but with a different combination of accoutrements.

If it's a tuxedo event...say, cocktail banquet...officers wear mess, enlisted wear semi-formal.

In CAP, cadets (who traditionally wear the enlisted-style Air Force uniform) wear semi-formal, since that's the traditional enlisted mess uniform. Senior members (who traditionally wear the officer-style Air Force uniform) wear mess dress. It makes perfect sense until you start to look at senior member NCOs, who don't have a mess uniform mentioned in CAPM 39-1 (although, they would traditionally wear their service coat in semi-formal combination...unless they purchase a mess uniform).

If we really want to get particular here, the whole basis is to maximize uniformity and minimize cost in an organization that has H&W standards for seniors but not for cadets, so seniors have two uniform combinations, whereas cadets do not. Cadets have one uniform they wear so that as they progress, they don't have to purchase a bunch of other stuff. Just as cadets don't get flight caps with silver braiding or Class As with sleeve braids.

There's a reason why we don't see a lot of semi-formal events: it's a universal PITA. Few cadets have semi-formal attire. Few seniors have semi-formal attire. None of us get a clothing allowance.

FTFY

I was referring to military, not CAP (which I hit after the initial point on traditional wear).
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« Reply #36 on: December 18, 2018, 02:57:23 PM »

I think we've about run the course on this one. The question was asked, some folks answered, the reg is fairly inconclusive and open to interpretation.





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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: Cadet Semi-formal Dress Uniform (Old Style) with shoulder cord or without?
 


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