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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  The Lobby  |  Topic: Civility
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Author Topic: Civility  (Read 1521 times)
Larry Mangum
Global Moderator

Posts: 665

« on: November 07, 2018, 09:56:12 AM »

I have been a member of CAP Talk for over eleven years. My practice has been to observe and only post when I felt that I could contribute something worthwhile to a topic.  Recently I have noticed over the years that sometimes members, tend to be snarky or down right rude or mean in their responses to a post and that it seems to have gotten worse lately.  Take for example, the post on “How to email or mail a note to the National Commander”, the poster asked a simple question, which led to a few useful answers and more than few answers that where outright obnoxious. Since we are all members of a board that runs under the concept of members helping other members, how are crude or obnoxious replies helping? 

Please stop and think before you post. It is okay to disagree with a post as long as it is done in a respectful way, but not if it is going to attack the other person or besmirch them. Please ponder a few things:
•   Is your answer helping to resolve the question or discussion?
•   Are you just trying beat your own chest and say listen to me, I am the great and all knowing OZ?
•   Am I moving the conversation forward with my reply?
•   Am I being helpful?

If you cannot truthfully say that you are providing helping or moving the conversation along, maybe you should not post your reply.

Finally, a lot of us have been around CAP for a long time and have held position at all levels of CAP, but that does not mean we have all the answers. Please don’t assume that there is only one way to accomplish something. What use to be the established way, may no longer be the preferred or authorized way.  Be open to different ways to accomplish things. As long as regulations are not broken, what harm is there in trying to bring change to how things are done.

V/r

Larry Mangum, Lt Col CAP

« Last Edit: November 07, 2018, 10:12:38 AM by Larry Mangum » Logged
Larry Mangum, Lt Col CAP
SWR-LA-966
Lakeshore-CAP-Ret
Forum Regular

Posts: 128
Unit: W-MICH

« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2018, 10:05:24 AM »

The colonel makes an excellent point.  We're all volunteers. Some of us have been trained very well, while others... not so much.  If someone asks the same question several times, perhaps the moderators can find out what's going on.


Thanks for the reminder, Sir!
Logged
MAJ DAVID J. D'ARCY, CAP (Ret) 8 Apr 2018
Former member of West Michigan Group

Dave's CAP Achievements by drc3david, on Flickr
OldGuy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 482
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2018, 11:35:09 AM »

I am here about a year and almost  left because of the rude. I cannot tell if it "better" or "worse" but it does make for a bad experience all too often.
Logged
Color Guard Rifleman
Forum Regular

Posts: 100
Unit: GLR-MI-265

Grand Rapids Metro Cadet Squadron
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2018, 11:46:46 AM »

It might also help if when people asked questions, the people that answer do it without always using sarcasm. Sarcasm is sometimes appropriate, but not in all cases.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2018, 01:54:46 PM by Color Guard Rifleman » Logged
C/TSgt Killeen
GLR-MI-265 Cadet Public Affairs NCO                                        

See the source image 
GroundHawg
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 603

« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2018, 12:08:02 PM »

Thank you so much for posting this. I would post here more often, but I don't because of the negative and unproductive comments that are almost inevitable. Some are beyond condescending or snarky and are outright hostile. I cant tell you how many times I have typed out a response to something, only to back out or close the page without posting.

I promise to be more positive myself and wont let the Debbie Downers ruin a good page for me!
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NIN
Super Moderator

Posts: 4,980
Unit: of issue

« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2018, 01:01:46 PM »

Excellent post, Larry.

 I will add something to the civility discussion: the concept of 'benefit of the doubt'.

From a prior post of mine:

Quote
"benefit of the doubt": a concession that a person or fact must be regarded as correct or justified, if the contrary has not been proven.[emphasis mine]

From the Urban Dictionary (can't believe I'm quoting that here)

Quote
To give someone the benefit of the doubt is to default to the belief that their intentions are honest, and not assume malice when there is uncertainty or doubt surrounding the circumstances.

This speaks back to civility and assuming that people are at least *trying* to do the right thing, versus assuming (in the absence of information) that they're blithely waltzing off the reservation.


Logged
Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2018 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
Live2Learn
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 686

« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2018, 04:40:14 PM »

LTC Mangum:  Thanks for your excellent, constructive contribution to the many conversations on this forum.  Kudos.
Logged
SCoontsFan
Recruit

Posts: 38

« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2018, 04:54:41 PM »

I have been a member of CAP Talk for over eleven years. My practice has been to observe and only post when I felt that I could contribute something worthwhile to a topic.  Recently I have noticed over the years that sometimes members, tend to be snarky or down right rude or mean in their responses to a post and that it seems to have gotten worse lately.  Take for example, the post on “How to email or mail a note to the National Commander”, the poster asked a simple question, which led to a few useful answers and more than few answers that where outright obnoxious. Since we are all members of a board that runs under the concept of members helping other members, how are crude or obnoxious replies helping? 

Please stop and think before you post. It is okay to disagree with a post as long as it is done in a respectful way, but not if it is going to attack the other person or besmirch them. Please ponder a few things:
•   Is your answer helping to resolve the question or discussion?
•   Are you just trying beat your own chest and say listen to me, I am the great and all knowing OZ?
•   Am I moving the conversation forward with my reply?
•   Am I being helpful?

If you cannot truthfully say that you are providing helping or moving the conversation along, maybe you should not post your reply.

Finally, a lot of us have been around CAP for a long time and have held position at all levels of CAP, but that does not mean we have all the answers. Please don’t assume that there is only one way to accomplish something. What use to be the established way, may no longer be the preferred or authorized way.  Be open to different ways to accomplish things. As long as regulations are not broken, what harm is there in trying to bring change to how things are done.

V/r

Larry Mangum, Lt Col CAP

Thank you so much for posting this.  My first day of posting in this forum I was denigrated, mocked, and besmirched.  The sarcasm and rudeness was not only ongoing and relentless by one particular individual, I received two messages from an admin who excused the behavior and tried to place the blame squarely on me.  He next stated that particular individual has always behaved in the same manner in this forum.  I'm sorry, but that's unsat behavior (for both individuals).  Would it have happened if we were sitting at a CAP meeting?  I would hope not.  It if did, it would not be tolerated.  We all need to treat each other in this (and any other online CAP) forum as if we are at a CAP meeting, remembering the Core Values with every post and response.  Anything else turns this forum into nothing more than another online cesspool.
Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,246

« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2018, 05:40:29 PM »

My first day of posting in this forum I was denigrated, mocked, and besmirched.  The sarcasm and rudeness was not only ongoing and relentless by one particular individual.

Absolutely untrue.

You asked a question which had more then a little political bend to it, one which is on a subject which
is controversial within CAP generally, were provided proper answers, and then when you didn't like
reality, you proceeded to get into a philosophical argument which had a flawed understanding of
how CAP works as its basis.

In no way were you "denigrated, mocked, and besmirched".  Being disagreed with, or being shown to be incorrect,
is not "denigration, mocking, or bismirchment" (which probably isn't a word).

Routinely this board encounters new members who feel it is their role to "fix CAP", despite their
ID card still being wet, then they get upset when reality, either locally, or nationally, doesn't jive
with the way they would like things to be.

There is also the all-too-common poster who decides they will "Tell everyone a question." for no other
reason then to try and make a political argument.

Rare, exceedingly rare, are posters here who ask legitimate questions and get "jumped on", whatever that means,
in the first few responses.  It generally a combo of "what does the reg say" - which is totally appropriate,
combined with the actual answer, (or lack thereof when there isn't one).

Would it have happened if we were sitting at a CAP meeting?  I would hope not.  It if did, it would not be tolerated.

Of course it would.  The answer is the answer, as would be the response to a spurious argument.

The only issue is tone, which for some reason is always taken in the worst light when
people hear things that make them sad or in which they disagree. People rarely make an issue of
anything when they get a positive response or are agreed with.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2018, 05:45:12 PM by Eclipse » Logged


SCoontsFan
Recruit

Posts: 38

« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2018, 05:50:56 PM »

Quote
Absolutely untrue

No, it's not untrue, absolutely or otherwise.

Quote
You asked a question which had more then a little political bend to it, one which is on a subject which
is controversial within CAP generally, were provided proper answers, and then when you didn't like
reality, you proceeded to get into a philosophical argument which had a flawed understanding of
how CAP works as its basis.

It seems that you might be thinking of a different discussion than I am.  My question(s) were not politically related in the least.

Quote
In no way were you "denigrated, mocked, and besmirched".  Being disagreed with, or being shown to be incorrect,
is not "denigration, mocking, or bismirchment" (which probably isn't a word).

Routinely this board encounters new members who feel it is their role to "fix CAP", despite their
ID card still being wet, then they get upset when reality, either locally, or nationally, doesn't jive
with the way they would like things to be.

My questions and comments were nothing like an individual who wants to "fix CAP".  And I'm certainly not a person who feels CAP needs to be fixed.  Like I said, I think you might be remembering a completely different discussion -- one where I wasn't involved.

Quote
There is also the all-too-common poster who decides they will "Tell everyone a question." for no other
reason then to try and make a political argument.

Now I'm interested to know what discussion you are referring to.  I don't think I've ever noticed a politically related argument or discussion in this forum.  And I'm pretty sure I've never taken part in one.

Quote
Rare, exceedingly rare, are posters here who ask legitimate questions and get "jumped on", whatever that means,
in the first few responses.  It generally a combo of "what does the reg say" - which is totally appropriate,
combined with the actual answer, (or lack thereof when there isn't one).

Actually, I've seen a number of posters asking legitimate questions who have been jumped on almost immediately in this forum.  And it usually starts with the same individual.
Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,246

« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2018, 05:57:54 PM »

I seemed to recall a conversation in which you asserted that "CAP regulations were government regulations" and then tacked on
Total Force for good measure, indicating a misunderstanding of both.

In using the term "political" I was referring to internal CAP politics.  Many if not the majority of the discussions
on this forum are based in those, if for no other reasons then many of the more confusing or convoluted
CAP regulations and policies are caused because of political compromises to retention or the avoidance of uncomfortable
conversations.

CAP, by design, attracts a lot of "Type-A" personalities, and Type-A don't like answers to questions that
don't make logical sense, which cause most of the hurt feelings yo see on this board.
Logged


Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,246

« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2018, 05:59:19 PM »

Actually, I've seen a number of posters asking legitimate questions who have been jumped on almost immediately in this forum.  And it usually starts with the same individual.

Cite please.
Logged


Ned
Resident Philosopher

Posts: 2,201

« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2018, 06:05:45 PM »



Dramatic Irony: (noun)  a literary technique, originally used in Greek tragedy, by which the full significance of a character's words or actions are clear to the audience or reader although unknown to the character.
Logged
SCoontsFan
Recruit

Posts: 38

« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2018, 06:08:25 PM »

I seemed to recall a conversation in which you asserted that "CAP regulations were government regulations" and then tacked on
Total Force for good measure, indicating a misunderstanding of both.

In using the term "political" I was referring to internal CAP politics.  Many if not the majority of the discussions
on this forum are based in those, if for no other reasons then many of the more confusing or convoluted
CAP regulations and policies are caused because of political compromises to retention or the avoidance of uncomfortable
conversations.

CAP, by design, attracts a lot of "Type-A" personalities, and Type-A don't like answers to questions that
don't make logical sense, which cause most of the hurt feelings yo see on this board.

In the spirit of the original post of this thread, I refuse to get sucked into the endless bickering and arguing vortex responding any further to your comments will surely bring.  This isn't me surrendering, mind you, just not wanting to turn what is a great thread into the complete opposite.
Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,246

« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2018, 06:09:51 PM »

Dramatic Irony: (noun)  a literary technique, originally used in Greek tragedy, by which the full significance of a character's words or actions are clear to the audience or reader although unknown to the character.

A "bells tolls reference", seriously?
Logged


A.Member
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,617

« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2018, 09:59:22 PM »

Concur with the OP.

Seems some of us need to reference the following before "contributing":



And if you make it to the last step in the process, pay particular attention to the words, especially the part the says "don't try to impress".
Logged
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return." - Leonardo da Vinci
etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,304

« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2018, 10:53:15 PM »

^^^^^ Funny.

99% or more of the questions asked here could be answered by a quick word search in the Regs, or by merely asking someone at the Squadron level.

Bottom line ... this really isn't as much of a resource, as it is an after hours coffee house (or beer hall) talk amongst folks with either too much beer or caffeinated coffee.

It's always a good "show" and fun entertainment.  Looking at it that way, I never get offended at anything here. It's an amusing place to just hangout and tell a few jokes.

Some folks just get too serious here. This isn't an official meeting night.  Heck, half the time I'm reading this in my underwear. All good.  :)
« Last Edit: November 08, 2018, 12:20:59 AM by etodd » Logged
MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO
Gunsotsu
Member

Posts: 92

« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2018, 12:21:34 AM »

Civility.

On an anonymous message board.

That is in no way an official CAP website.

Yeah, good luck with that.
Logged
Live2Learn
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 686

« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2018, 02:36:00 AM »

^^^^^ Funny.

99% or more of the questions asked here could be answered by a quick word search in the Regs, or by merely asking someone at the Squadron level.

Bottom line ... this really isn't as much of a resource, as it is an after hours coffee house (or beer hall) talk amongst folks with either too much beer or caffeinated coffee.

It's always a good "show" and fun entertainment.  Looking at it that way, I never get offended at anything here. It's an amusing place to just hangout and tell a few jokes.

Some folks just get too serious here. This isn't an official meeting night.  Heck, half the time I'm reading this in my underwear. All good.  :)

Priceless!  A bit "TMI", but still tolerable for those of us with tinder eyes.  Very suitable attire.  I can tell you don't like starch in 'em either.  :)  Got a good chuckle from visualizing  ;o
Logged
SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,464
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2018, 06:53:49 AM »

^^^^^ Funny.

99% or more of the questions asked here could be answered by a quick word search in the Regs, or by merely asking someone at the Squadron level.

Bottom line ... this really isn't as much of a resource, as it is an after hours coffee house (or beer hall) talk amongst folks with either too much beer or caffeinated coffee.

It's always a good "show" and fun entertainment.  Looking at it that way, I never get offended at anything here. It's an amusing place to just hangout and tell a few jokes.

Some folks just get too serious here. This isn't an official meeting night.  Heck, half the time I'm reading this in my underwear. All good.  :)

And then there's this - Membership Code of Conduct

CAP Talk really is intended to be a useful resource, but there are many members who seem to think otherwise.

Here's the Welcome message by Pylon from 13 years ago, when CT started:
With the shut-down of CAPBoard, Civil Air Patrol members were in need of a quality, nation-wide discussion board for all things CAP.  We are filling that hole with CAPTalk and hope to serve the entire CAP community, both Cadets and Senior Members.
 
All CAP personnel are welcome, from the youngest squadron cadet to Region Commanders and NHQ staffers.  Everybody is encouraged to participate:  ask questions, share your knowledge, fuel discussions, and learn.
 
There are discussion forums to cover all areas of Civil Air Patrol, whatever your interests may be.  As time goes on and we discover which topics are more popular than others, we will expand and add more forums to the board as the situation warrants.  In the meantime, if your topic does not fall under one of the categories presented, just post it in The Lobby - a catch-all forum.
 
I hope the everyone will participate in this community with an open-mind, a willingness to contribute, and a common courtesy for one another.  We appreciate your participation here and are always open to your suggestions, feedback, comments, and questions!
Logged
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
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