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Larry Mangum
Global Moderator

Posts: 665

« on: November 07, 2018, 09:56:12 AM »

I have been a member of CAP Talk for over eleven years. My practice has been to observe and only post when I felt that I could contribute something worthwhile to a topic.  Recently I have noticed over the years that sometimes members, tend to be snarky or down right rude or mean in their responses to a post and that it seems to have gotten worse lately.  Take for example, the post on “How to email or mail a note to the National Commander”, the poster asked a simple question, which led to a few useful answers and more than few answers that where outright obnoxious. Since we are all members of a board that runs under the concept of members helping other members, how are crude or obnoxious replies helping? 

Please stop and think before you post. It is okay to disagree with a post as long as it is done in a respectful way, but not if it is going to attack the other person or besmirch them. Please ponder a few things:
•   Is your answer helping to resolve the question or discussion?
•   Are you just trying beat your own chest and say listen to me, I am the great and all knowing OZ?
•   Am I moving the conversation forward with my reply?
•   Am I being helpful?

If you cannot truthfully say that you are providing helping or moving the conversation along, maybe you should not post your reply.

Finally, a lot of us have been around CAP for a long time and have held position at all levels of CAP, but that does not mean we have all the answers. Please don’t assume that there is only one way to accomplish something. What use to be the established way, may no longer be the preferred or authorized way.  Be open to different ways to accomplish things. As long as regulations are not broken, what harm is there in trying to bring change to how things are done.

V/r

Larry Mangum, Lt Col CAP

« Last Edit: November 07, 2018, 10:12:38 AM by Larry Mangum » Logged
Larry Mangum, Lt Col CAP
SWR-LA-966
Lakeshore-CAP-Ret
Forum Regular

Posts: 128
Unit: W-MICH

« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2018, 10:05:24 AM »

The colonel makes an excellent point.  We're all volunteers. Some of us have been trained very well, while others... not so much.  If someone asks the same question several times, perhaps the moderators can find out what's going on.


Thanks for the reminder, Sir!
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MAJ DAVID J. D'ARCY, CAP (Ret) 8 Apr 2018
Former member of West Michigan Group

Dave's CAP Achievements by drc3david, on Flickr
OldGuy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 482
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2018, 11:35:09 AM »

I am here about a year and almost  left because of the rude. I cannot tell if it "better" or "worse" but it does make for a bad experience all too often.
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Color Guard Rifleman
Forum Regular

Posts: 100
Unit: GLR-MI-265

Grand Rapids Metro Cadet Squadron
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2018, 11:46:46 AM »

It might also help if when people asked questions, the people that answer do it without always using sarcasm. Sarcasm is sometimes appropriate, but not in all cases.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2018, 01:54:46 PM by Color Guard Rifleman » Logged
C/TSgt Killeen
GLR-MI-265 Cadet Public Affairs NCO                                        

See the source image 
GroundHawg
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 603

« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2018, 12:08:02 PM »

Thank you so much for posting this. I would post here more often, but I don't because of the negative and unproductive comments that are almost inevitable. Some are beyond condescending or snarky and are outright hostile. I cant tell you how many times I have typed out a response to something, only to back out or close the page without posting.

I promise to be more positive myself and wont let the Debbie Downers ruin a good page for me!
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NIN
Super Moderator

Posts: 4,980
Unit: of issue

« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2018, 01:01:46 PM »

Excellent post, Larry.

 I will add something to the civility discussion: the concept of 'benefit of the doubt'.

From a prior post of mine:

Quote
"benefit of the doubt": a concession that a person or fact must be regarded as correct or justified, if the contrary has not been proven.[emphasis mine]

From the Urban Dictionary (can't believe I'm quoting that here)

Quote
To give someone the benefit of the doubt is to default to the belief that their intentions are honest, and not assume malice when there is uncertainty or doubt surrounding the circumstances.

This speaks back to civility and assuming that people are at least *trying* to do the right thing, versus assuming (in the absence of information) that they're blithely waltzing off the reservation.


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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2018 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
Live2Learn
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 686

« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2018, 04:40:14 PM »

LTC Mangum:  Thanks for your excellent, constructive contribution to the many conversations on this forum.  Kudos.
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SCoontsFan
Recruit

Posts: 38

« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2018, 04:54:41 PM »

I have been a member of CAP Talk for over eleven years. My practice has been to observe and only post when I felt that I could contribute something worthwhile to a topic.  Recently I have noticed over the years that sometimes members, tend to be snarky or down right rude or mean in their responses to a post and that it seems to have gotten worse lately.  Take for example, the post on “How to email or mail a note to the National Commander”, the poster asked a simple question, which led to a few useful answers and more than few answers that where outright obnoxious. Since we are all members of a board that runs under the concept of members helping other members, how are crude or obnoxious replies helping? 

Please stop and think before you post. It is okay to disagree with a post as long as it is done in a respectful way, but not if it is going to attack the other person or besmirch them. Please ponder a few things:
•   Is your answer helping to resolve the question or discussion?
•   Are you just trying beat your own chest and say listen to me, I am the great and all knowing OZ?
•   Am I moving the conversation forward with my reply?
•   Am I being helpful?

If you cannot truthfully say that you are providing helping or moving the conversation along, maybe you should not post your reply.

Finally, a lot of us have been around CAP for a long time and have held position at all levels of CAP, but that does not mean we have all the answers. Please don’t assume that there is only one way to accomplish something. What use to be the established way, may no longer be the preferred or authorized way.  Be open to different ways to accomplish things. As long as regulations are not broken, what harm is there in trying to bring change to how things are done.

V/r

Larry Mangum, Lt Col CAP

Thank you so much for posting this.  My first day of posting in this forum I was denigrated, mocked, and besmirched.  The sarcasm and rudeness was not only ongoing and relentless by one particular individual, I received two messages from an admin who excused the behavior and tried to place the blame squarely on me.  He next stated that particular individual has always behaved in the same manner in this forum.  I'm sorry, but that's unsat behavior (for both individuals).  Would it have happened if we were sitting at a CAP meeting?  I would hope not.  It if did, it would not be tolerated.  We all need to treat each other in this (and any other online CAP) forum as if we are at a CAP meeting, remembering the Core Values with every post and response.  Anything else turns this forum into nothing more than another online cesspool.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,246

« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2018, 05:40:29 PM »

My first day of posting in this forum I was denigrated, mocked, and besmirched.  The sarcasm and rudeness was not only ongoing and relentless by one particular individual.

Absolutely untrue.

You asked a question which had more then a little political bend to it, one which is on a subject which
is controversial within CAP generally, were provided proper answers, and then when you didn't like
reality, you proceeded to get into a philosophical argument which had a flawed understanding of
how CAP works as its basis.

In no way were you "denigrated, mocked, and besmirched".  Being disagreed with, or being shown to be incorrect,
is not "denigration, mocking, or bismirchment" (which probably isn't a word).

Routinely this board encounters new members who feel it is their role to "fix CAP", despite their
ID card still being wet, then they get upset when reality, either locally, or nationally, doesn't jive
with the way they would like things to be.

There is also the all-too-common poster who decides they will "Tell everyone a question." for no other
reason then to try and make a political argument.

Rare, exceedingly rare, are posters here who ask legitimate questions and get "jumped on", whatever that means,
in the first few responses.  It generally a combo of "what does the reg say" - which is totally appropriate,
combined with the actual answer, (or lack thereof when there isn't one).

Would it have happened if we were sitting at a CAP meeting?  I would hope not.  It if did, it would not be tolerated.

Of course it would.  The answer is the answer, as would be the response to a spurious argument.

The only issue is tone, which for some reason is always taken in the worst light when
people hear things that make them sad or in which they disagree. People rarely make an issue of
anything when they get a positive response or are agreed with.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2018, 05:45:12 PM by Eclipse » Logged


SCoontsFan
Recruit

Posts: 38

« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2018, 05:50:56 PM »

Quote
Absolutely untrue

No, it's not untrue, absolutely or otherwise.

Quote
You asked a question which had more then a little political bend to it, one which is on a subject which
is controversial within CAP generally, were provided proper answers, and then when you didn't like
reality, you proceeded to get into a philosophical argument which had a flawed understanding of
how CAP works as its basis.

It seems that you might be thinking of a different discussion than I am.  My question(s) were not politically related in the least.

Quote
In no way were you "denigrated, mocked, and besmirched".  Being disagreed with, or being shown to be incorrect,
is not "denigration, mocking, or bismirchment" (which probably isn't a word).

Routinely this board encounters new members who feel it is their role to "fix CAP", despite their
ID card still being wet, then they get upset when reality, either locally, or nationally, doesn't jive
with the way they would like things to be.

My questions and comments were nothing like an individual who wants to "fix CAP".  And I'm certainly not a person who feels CAP needs to be fixed.  Like I said, I think you might be remembering a completely different discussion -- one where I wasn't involved.

Quote
There is also the all-too-common poster who decides they will "Tell everyone a question." for no other
reason then to try and make a political argument.

Now I'm interested to know what discussion you are referring to.  I don't think I've ever noticed a politically related argument or discussion in this forum.  And I'm pretty sure I've never taken part in one.

Quote
Rare, exceedingly rare, are posters here who ask legitimate questions and get "jumped on", whatever that means,
in the first few responses.  It generally a combo of "what does the reg say" - which is totally appropriate,
combined with the actual answer, (or lack thereof when there isn't one).

Actually, I've seen a number of posters asking legitimate questions who have been jumped on almost immediately in this forum.  And it usually starts with the same individual.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,246

« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2018, 05:57:54 PM »

I seemed to recall a conversation in which you asserted that "CAP regulations were government regulations" and then tacked on
Total Force for good measure, indicating a misunderstanding of both.

In using the term "political" I was referring to internal CAP politics.  Many if not the majority of the discussions
on this forum are based in those, if for no other reasons then many of the more confusing or convoluted
CAP regulations and policies are caused because of political compromises to retention or the avoidance of uncomfortable
conversations.

CAP, by design, attracts a lot of "Type-A" personalities, and Type-A don't like answers to questions that
don't make logical sense, which cause most of the hurt feelings yo see on this board.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,246

« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2018, 05:59:19 PM »

Actually, I've seen a number of posters asking legitimate questions who have been jumped on almost immediately in this forum.  And it usually starts with the same individual.

Cite please.
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Ned
Resident Philosopher

Posts: 2,201

« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2018, 06:05:45 PM »



Dramatic Irony: (noun)  a literary technique, originally used in Greek tragedy, by which the full significance of a character's words or actions are clear to the audience or reader although unknown to the character.
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SCoontsFan
Recruit

Posts: 38

« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2018, 06:08:25 PM »

I seemed to recall a conversation in which you asserted that "CAP regulations were government regulations" and then tacked on
Total Force for good measure, indicating a misunderstanding of both.

In using the term "political" I was referring to internal CAP politics.  Many if not the majority of the discussions
on this forum are based in those, if for no other reasons then many of the more confusing or convoluted
CAP regulations and policies are caused because of political compromises to retention or the avoidance of uncomfortable
conversations.

CAP, by design, attracts a lot of "Type-A" personalities, and Type-A don't like answers to questions that
don't make logical sense, which cause most of the hurt feelings yo see on this board.

In the spirit of the original post of this thread, I refuse to get sucked into the endless bickering and arguing vortex responding any further to your comments will surely bring.  This isn't me surrendering, mind you, just not wanting to turn what is a great thread into the complete opposite.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,246

« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2018, 06:09:51 PM »

Dramatic Irony: (noun)  a literary technique, originally used in Greek tragedy, by which the full significance of a character's words or actions are clear to the audience or reader although unknown to the character.

A "bells tolls reference", seriously?
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A.Member
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,617

« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2018, 09:59:22 PM »

Concur with the OP.

Seems some of us need to reference the following before "contributing":



And if you make it to the last step in the process, pay particular attention to the words, especially the part the says "don't try to impress".
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"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return." - Leonardo da Vinci
etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,304

« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2018, 10:53:15 PM »

^^^^^ Funny.

99% or more of the questions asked here could be answered by a quick word search in the Regs, or by merely asking someone at the Squadron level.

Bottom line ... this really isn't as much of a resource, as it is an after hours coffee house (or beer hall) talk amongst folks with either too much beer or caffeinated coffee.

It's always a good "show" and fun entertainment.  Looking at it that way, I never get offended at anything here. It's an amusing place to just hangout and tell a few jokes.

Some folks just get too serious here. This isn't an official meeting night.  Heck, half the time I'm reading this in my underwear. All good.  :)
« Last Edit: November 08, 2018, 12:20:59 AM by etodd » Logged
MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO
Gunsotsu
Member

Posts: 92

« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2018, 12:21:34 AM »

Civility.

On an anonymous message board.

That is in no way an official CAP website.

Yeah, good luck with that.
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Live2Learn
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 686

« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2018, 02:36:00 AM »

^^^^^ Funny.

99% or more of the questions asked here could be answered by a quick word search in the Regs, or by merely asking someone at the Squadron level.

Bottom line ... this really isn't as much of a resource, as it is an after hours coffee house (or beer hall) talk amongst folks with either too much beer or caffeinated coffee.

It's always a good "show" and fun entertainment.  Looking at it that way, I never get offended at anything here. It's an amusing place to just hangout and tell a few jokes.

Some folks just get too serious here. This isn't an official meeting night.  Heck, half the time I'm reading this in my underwear. All good.  :)

Priceless!  A bit "TMI", but still tolerable for those of us with tinder eyes.  Very suitable attire.  I can tell you don't like starch in 'em either.  :)  Got a good chuckle from visualizing  ;o
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SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,464
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2018, 06:53:49 AM »

^^^^^ Funny.

99% or more of the questions asked here could be answered by a quick word search in the Regs, or by merely asking someone at the Squadron level.

Bottom line ... this really isn't as much of a resource, as it is an after hours coffee house (or beer hall) talk amongst folks with either too much beer or caffeinated coffee.

It's always a good "show" and fun entertainment.  Looking at it that way, I never get offended at anything here. It's an amusing place to just hangout and tell a few jokes.

Some folks just get too serious here. This isn't an official meeting night.  Heck, half the time I'm reading this in my underwear. All good.  :)

And then there's this - Membership Code of Conduct

CAP Talk really is intended to be a useful resource, but there are many members who seem to think otherwise.

Here's the Welcome message by Pylon from 13 years ago, when CT started:
With the shut-down of CAPBoard, Civil Air Patrol members were in need of a quality, nation-wide discussion board for all things CAP.  We are filling that hole with CAPTalk and hope to serve the entire CAP community, both Cadets and Senior Members.
 
All CAP personnel are welcome, from the youngest squadron cadet to Region Commanders and NHQ staffers.  Everybody is encouraged to participate:  ask questions, share your knowledge, fuel discussions, and learn.
 
There are discussion forums to cover all areas of Civil Air Patrol, whatever your interests may be.  As time goes on and we discover which topics are more popular than others, we will expand and add more forums to the board as the situation warrants.  In the meantime, if your topic does not fall under one of the categories presented, just post it in The Lobby - a catch-all forum.
 
I hope the everyone will participate in this community with an open-mind, a willingness to contribute, and a common courtesy for one another.  We appreciate your participation here and are always open to your suggestions, feedback, comments, and questions!
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
Larry Mangum
Global Moderator

Posts: 665

« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2018, 11:49:02 AM »

Not trying to pick on or attack Eclipse, but he made my point. How did his response to SCoonts post help the conversation along?  If SCoonts, felt that he was denigrated, mocked or besmirched, how can any of us say he was not. We do not know how he felt. So we might want to consider how our response is going to be taken by the person we are replying to.  We all have offended or hurt someone without meaning to, and yes sometimes the truth hurts, but if delivered in the right voice, the response can be given, in a manner that does not denigrate, mock, or besmirch someone.

In another reply to this post on "civility", a member mentioned that he sees CAP TALK as an after-hours coffee shop or beer hall. That is concerning, when you consider the gambit of people on this board reigns all the way from newbie cadets to crusty seniors. Perhaps we need to govern our behaviors by the lowest common denominators, which is a young cadet. If your reply is not within the bounds of something you would say to a cadet, then maybe you should reconsider the post. 

I started this conversation / topic due to a concern that a good resource for everyone in CAP, was becoming useless to anyone, due to the uncivility being displayed at times.  Even if someone is asking a question that may be easy to find an answer to in a regulation, for some of us. That does not mean it is easy for a newbie. So replying to such a question in a snarky or sarcastic manner does not help them nor your reputation, to be honest. Next time that person asks a question, if he or she comes back, you might be the only person with the correct answer. What are the odds the person will value your answer, if they perceived you as being rude or denigrating to them the last time.
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Larry Mangum, Lt Col CAP
SWR-LA-966
TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,529

« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2018, 12:20:58 PM »

Not trying to pick on or attack Eclipse, but he made my point. How did his response to SCoonts post help the conversation along?  If SCoonts, felt that he was denigrated, mocked or besmirched, how can any of us say he was not. We do not know how he felt. So we might want to consider how our response is going to be taken by the person we are replying to.  We all have offended or hurt someone without meaning to, and yes sometimes the truth hurts, but if delivered in the right voice, the response can be given, in a manner that does not denigrate, mock, or besmirch someone.

No disagreement.

However, at the same time, your feelings about a situation are subjective. Intent is a huge part of 'hurting someone's feelings.' It may not have been intentional, but that's how it played out. You can't necessarily control how someone reacts to your statement.

Quote
I started this conversation / topic due to a concern that a good resource for everyone in CAP, was becoming useless to anyone, due to the uncivility being displayed at times.  Even if someone is asking a question that may be easy to find an answer to in a regulation, for some of us. That does not mean it is easy for a newbie. So replying to such a question in a snarky or sarcastic manner does not help them nor your reputation, to be honest. Next time that person asks a question, if he or she comes back, you might be the only person with the correct answer. What are the odds the person will value your answer, if they perceived you as being rude or denigrating to them the last time.

What if we treated CAP Talk like a unit training meeting:
Someone comes up and asks a question. You say "Did you find it in the manual?" "I didn't check." "Okay, go back and check before you ask."

People would call it snarky and unhelpful. "Why don't you just have some courtesy and answer the person's question." "Because they obviously didn't do the work to actually research it; they just asked."

There's different ways to handle different topics. There are definitely times where I read topics and go "Was that really necessary?" But there are also times where an appropriate answer might very well be "Read the book."

There's a caveat to be made here:
CAP Talk is an UNOFFICIAL message board. The answers provided here are in conversational dialogue, not official mandate or directive. Even someone citing a manual to you is purely informative. It's not your chain of command making an official statement on behalf of regulatory interpretation and enforcement.

There are a lot of questions asked here that should be redirected back to the person's unit. And there are a number of times where the same person posts over and over with similar lines of questioning to which they obviously still never discussed it at the local level. They bring it to a social media forum to grieve or solidify an opinion and don't necessarily accept the criticism of "You need to address this with your unit."

All that said, replies, both critical and informational, should be professional, courteous, respectful, and to a point. As the dialogue progresses, anticipate more feedback. Avoid it getting personal.


My role on CAP Talk: Give guidance when able, and receive guidance along the way.

I mean to speak for nobody else or in defense or opposition to anyone on here. This is just my own opinion presented by me with nobody in particular in mind. I'm becoming better at just moving on rather than replying to a number of topics, as well as deleting a post before I submit it after I go "Why are you even saying that?" Responders, just as OP's, should follow the same suit at times.

We're talking a lot about how to be civil in replying to someone. Lest we ignore those who make the initial post that should perhaps also take that step back and ask themselves, "Wait---why am I asking this on here?"

Not to mention the number of people that aren't even actively in CAP....to include those on some of the Facebook groups just the same. Really, if you aren't in, it's not your place to contribute (at least in the active question pool for most topics).


*steps off toad stool*
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SCoontsFan
Recruit

Posts: 38

« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2018, 01:39:09 PM »


What if we treated CAP Talk like a unit training meeting:
Someone comes up and asks a question. You say "Did you find it in the manual?" "I didn't check." "Okay, go back and check before you ask."

People would call it snarky and unhelpful. "Why don't you just have some courtesy and answer the person's question." "Because they obviously didn't do the work to actually research it; they just asked."

As a teacher in real life, I'll say that the response is snarky and unhelpful because of the wording and tone.  You can say the same thing with different wording that is helpful and encouraging the individual to look in the manual first rather than rebuffing them.  What you're doing is not encouraging them to do anything except look at you from then on as someone who is snarky and unhelpful when they have questions - in other words, someone to avoid.  Which, by the way, is impossible in this kind of forum because we can't keep others from responding to us (unlike Facebook where you're able to block the asshats). 

When it comes to CAP or any volunteer organization, you want someone who has just asked a question of you to go away feeling good about themselves, not feeling like an child who has just been scolded by the principal or a recruit who has been dressed down by a drill instructor.  We're supposed to be supportive of each other -- and especially when you consider the reason for being in CAP is that it's a volunteer service meant to support the community, practicing being supportive is even more applicable.  We can do that in here.  If you can't support other CAP members in this forum, you're not likely to be truly supportive of the community you're supposed to be serving or the USAF as an auxiliary member.  And if you look at that last part of what I just wrote with a cynical eye ("Oh, someone else who's drank the 'Total Force' kool-aid!" ... something that was said to me the first day I posted in this forum during more mocking and denigrating), then you know what?  You should consider getting out of CAP.  Why?  Because you don't 'get' the whole concept of service, excellence, respect, and integrity.  Or, rather than get out, you could improve your outlook and attitude - which would be a plus for CAP, your squadron, and yourself. 

We're supposed to scaffold people as members of CAP and lift them up to the next level of learning and experience, not pull the scaffold out from under them and tell them "better luck next time!".  To say something like, "go back and check before you ask" is what a parent would say to a child.  We aren't parents of cadets and those of us who are senior members aren't children.  Don't treat people in this forum like either and you'll be doing everyone a favor - yourself and CAP, too.

In case someone thinks I'm addressing just SkyHornet as a result of his comments above, I'm not.  I've seen a lot of this in the plethora of posts I've read through that go back years.  This is not a new problem but a current and continuing problem that needs to be addressed and sealt with.  Which is what the OP did with his encouraging and spot on post.  Anyone who doesn't see that is likely part of the problem, not the solution.  I know which side I want to be on: part of the solution.
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PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,314

« Reply #23 on: November 08, 2018, 03:18:47 PM »

Asking somebody to look up something is not being snarky. It's not like the old days where your only access to the regs was at your unit and it was a crap shoot if they were current or not.
Now days you can look them up on line where they are always current and everybody has access.
So how is it being mean by having them actually look it up for themselves? Learning how to find stuff in the regs is a useful skill.
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SCoontsFan
Recruit

Posts: 38

« Reply #24 on: November 08, 2018, 03:38:07 PM »

Asking somebody to look up something is not being snarky. It's not like the old days where your only access to the regs was at your unit and it was a crap shoot if they were current or not.
Now days you can look them up on line where they are always current and everybody has access.
So how is it being mean by having them actually look it up for themselves? Learning how to find stuff in the regs is a useful skill.

I'm going to encourage you to re-read what I wrote above so you can see why the "Look it up for yourself and then we can have a conversation" kind of response isn't appropriate in a group like CAP.  The main reason why is found in these comments: "the response is snarky and unhelpful because of the wording and tone.  You can say the same thing with different wording that is helpful and encouraging the individual to look in the manual first rather than rebuffing them...you want someone who has just asked a question of you to go away feeling good about themselves, not feeling like an child who has just been scolded by the principal or a recruit who has been dressed down by a drill instructor...We're supposed to scaffold people as members of CAP and lift them up to the next level of learning and experience, not pull the scaffold out from under them and tell them "better luck next time!".  To say something like, "go back and check before you ask" is what a parent would say to a child.  We aren't parents of cadets and those of us who are senior members aren't children."

In other words, it has to do with respect for everyone and treating others as you would like to be treated.
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Ned
Resident Philosopher

Posts: 2,201

« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2018, 03:42:27 PM »

Asking somebody to look up something is not being snarky. It's not like the old days where your only access to the regs was at your unit and it was a crap shoot if they were current or not.
Now days you can look them up on line where they are always current and everybody has access.
So how is it being mean by having them actually look it up for themselves? Learning how to find stuff in the regs is a useful skill.

Phil, I basically agree that it is OK to point someone to the regs, but the larger point is how that is done.  Great and proper advice can be given in a snarky or otherwise inappropriate manner.

The difference between, "I'm pretty sure the information you need is in Chapter X, of CAPR 11-222;" versus "RTFM, Dude."

And often the incivility has little or nothing to do with the OP, but breaks out amongst all of the usual suspects in later responses.  Which I think makes the board appear unfriendly to newcomers and lurkers.

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Luis R. Ramos
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« Reply #26 on: November 08, 2018, 04:03:32 PM »

I am a retired Library teacher. In my career, I had lots of requests from students that were solved by "here is the card catalog / online catalog." Of course I knew the answers, but as a library teacher, the idea was to encourage students to learn to look for the answers themselves.

Some of the questions were "get me a book on …." Others were "I need a summary of Ulysses (or a different book title)," AFTER I gave them a Cliffs Notes of that book! For those that do not know or do not remember Cliffs Notes is a summary of a book. Almost like those "for Dummies" books.

I see on CAPTalk many, many requests that can be found in the regs and manuals, many, many cadets and new members that are not trying to get those answers on their own.

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etodd
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« Reply #27 on: November 08, 2018, 04:34:13 PM »


I see on CAPTalk many, many requests that can be found in the regs and manuals, many, many cadets and new members that are not trying to get those answers on their own.

Yes, but as someone else alluded to above, often the poster has looked it up or asked someone at their Squadron, didn't like what they found out, and come here to the "coffee house" to seek out someone who might feel the same way they do. Coming here to vent frustrations, find solace, etc..
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2018, 04:42:07 PM »


I see on CAPTalk many, many requests that can be found in the regs and manuals, many, many cadets and new members that are not trying to get those answers on their own.

Yes, but as someone else alluded to above, often the poster has looked it up or asked someone at their Squadron, didn't like what they found out, and come here to the "coffee house" to seek out someone who might feel the same way they do. Coming here to vent frustrations, find solace, etc..

If the person did, in fact, look it up and couldn't find it (to include asking at the squadron...which we know is the correct route to go but doesn't always produce intended results), then absolutely point them to the right answer.

If the person got their answer and doesn't like it, I can't help them.

You don't need to be snarky on the first bite. It will develop into that when you keep pushing it and don't take some initiative either to find the information out or accept the information already provided.

I've posted questions seeking advice, and sometimes I'm not thrilled with being on the 'wrong side' of the argument I initially posed. But that's life. I accept that I've been told otherwise and stand corrected.
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SCoontsFan
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« Reply #29 on: November 08, 2018, 05:02:32 PM »

I've posted questions seeking advice, and sometimes I'm not thrilled with being on the 'wrong side' of the argument I initially posed. But that's life. I accept that I've been told otherwise and stand corrected.

Except when you're a cadet and still trying to figure out what life is about, being a jerk to them isn't helpful or a good example.  "Look it up for yourself" isn't appropriate for the first time they've approached a senior member with a question - just give them the answer.  It isn't appropriate for the second time they approach you, either - the second time around, show them where to find it.  If the same question is asked a third time after you've shown them where to find it (and you assume they followed your direction), first consider there might be a comprehension issue (we don't insist our cadets will score high on an IQ test in order to be cadets, after all) and exercise patience.  I cannot stress enough that CAP is a volunteer organization and that modeling respect, integrity, excellence, and service is imperative for the senior members in their interaction not just with cadets but peers, as well.
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abdsp51
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« Reply #30 on: November 08, 2018, 05:28:01 PM »

I've posted questions seeking advice, and sometimes I'm not thrilled with being on the 'wrong side' of the argument I initially posed. But that's life. I accept that I've been told otherwise and stand corrected.

Except when you're a cadet and still trying to figure out what life is about, being a jerk to them isn't helpful or a good example.  "Look it up for yourself" isn't appropriate for the first time they've approached a senior member with a question - just give them the answer.  It isn't appropriate for the second time they approach you, either - the second time around, show them where to find it.  If the same question is asked a third time after you've shown them where to find it (and you assume they followed your direction), first consider there might be a comprehension issue (we don't insist our cadets will score high on an IQ test in order to be cadets, after all) and exercise patience.  I cannot stress enough that CAP is a volunteer organization and that modeling respect, integrity, excellence, and service is imperative for the senior members in their interaction not just with cadets but peers, as well.

Man I had something really snazzy for this but I'll keep it to myself. 

Look it up is an appropriate whether it's the first time or the 30th time.  Sorry people have this sense of entitlement that everything is owed to them. 

Cadets and members will be better off reading the documents and askig their CoC first before going to social media.  And sorry kids these days need ro learn, understand and deal with how the real world works and not the illusion that's presented. 

You can stress your point all day long doesn't make you anymore right. 

I bet that if you polled everyone coming here asking questions that if they really read the regs or asked their chain more often they haven't. 

Feed a man a fish he eats for a day teach a man to fish he eats for a lifetime. 

To many kids are coddled and pampered and get a huge reality check when they enter the real world.
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #31 on: November 08, 2018, 05:38:03 PM »

You're equating being told to go do some research before asking me for the answer to being a jerk. One does not beget the other.

If you come to me asking what shirt you're supposed to wear under your blues short-sleeve, I'm going to say "Did you check the uniform manual or talk to your (whatever their superior is)?" And I'm going to follow up with the staff to say "I had a cadet come up and ask me about the shirts we wear under our Blues. This indicates to me that we need to touch up on uniform wear."

You do a disservice to always answer someone's questions. You deny the cadet the opportunity, and responsibility, to attempt to find out this information on their own without going directly to a senior member. And you deny the cadet leadership the opportunity to assist in helping junior cadets troubleshoot their issues.

There are certain questions that would be appropriate to come talk to me about, especially personal matters. There are certain questions that you should not be going to the top of the chain to have answered, especially when there are 5 other people between me and that person.

And where we are talking about cadets, when not everyone asking questions is a cadet. Not every cadet asking questions is brand-new to CAP. There are different ways to handle different people. It can all be done respectfully and courteously, even if, sometimes, blunt and not the answer they wanted to hear.

No wonder we have Cadet Chief Master Sergeants that can't get a proper haircut or figure out that they need to wear a V-neck with their Blues or a black shirt with their BDUs. At some point you have to pull that person aside and go "Look, you signed up to learn some responsibility, and in learning that responsibility you're going to progress in this program. Someday you'll have other cadets coming to you asking these questions. You learning it now will help you in 6 months or a year when you have that person coming up to you."

It's not mean to not hold someone's hand and point them in the right direction. But you're likely not going to get me quoting a citation from a uniform manual to you when I know you never took the time to look it up, particularly when you know a uniform manual exists and you didn't bother to crack it open. If I had to answer every person's little itty bitty question and never show them how to take some responsibility and learn to research these things as they progress, I'd have a staff that couldn't do anything on their own.

That's an element of the Cadet Great Start: introduce the material to them, and show them where to find this information on their own for the future, or who to ask. Deal with it early on, and you have less issues.

If you come onto social media to ask questions about petty things that should have been resolved at the local level, the appropriate answer is to direct them to the proper standard and suggest they go back to their unit leadership to ask these questions. You give people a route here that says "I don't need to ask the people at my unit; I'll ask strangers on the internet," and you end up with people that can't do anything on their own let alone work with a team.

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SCoontsFan
Recruit

Posts: 38

« Reply #32 on: November 08, 2018, 05:43:15 PM »

Quote
Man I had something really snazzy for this but I'll keep it to myself. 

Look it up is an appropriate whether it's the first time or the 30th time.  Sorry people have this sense of entitlement that everything is owed to them. 

Cadets and members will be better off reading the documents and askig their CoC first before going to social media.  And sorry kids these days need ro learn, understand and deal with how the real world works and not the illusion that's presented. 

You can stress your point all day long doesn't make you anymore right. 

I bet that if you polled everyone coming here asking questions that if they really read the regs or asked their chain more often they haven't. 

Feed a man a fish he eats for a day teach a man to fish he eats for a lifetime. 

To many kids are coddled and pampered and get a huge reality check when they enter the real world.

???

^^^This is me hoping you don't have any contact with cadets.  Seriously.

As I stated above, I'm a professional educator.  Have been for many years.  I work with ages preschool through 12th grade.  All of my students, past to present, will tell you I don't coddle them nor am I the kind of educator who believes in participation trophies.  So there's that.  On the other hand, we are supposed to be helping cadets (who are ages 12-18), not making things harder for them.  Yeah, I get the fishing/hand-out analogy (I'm a political Conservative, so I get it in spades), but we are talking about children here, not grown adults, not college students, not boot-camp recruits.  We're also talking about children who have to deal with crappy home lives, crappy parents, having trouble in school, being bullied by other students, trying to fit in if they are considered a nerd, and hormones.  They are generally coming to CAP to get direction and have boundaries shown to them, not to feel like they do when they are in school or at home.  CAP should be a learning place but it should also be a safe place.  For some cadets, it may be one of the safest places they have.  We should make sure that feeling of boundaries, direction, and safety happens every time we are around them.

Two things I live by in my work with kids are these two nuggets - they've never failed me, and it's why I have kids come up to me years later, even after they've graduated, telling me I was one of their favorite teachers:

- A child may not remember what you told them, a child may not remember what you taught them, but a child will ALWAYS remember how you made them feel. 
- In a world where you can choose to be anything, choose to be kind, helpful, and respectful.
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abdsp51
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« Reply #33 on: November 08, 2018, 05:54:18 PM »

Quote
Man I had something really snazzy for this but I'll keep it to myself. 

Look it up is an appropriate whether it's the first time or the 30th time.  Sorry people have this sense of entitlement that everything is owed to them. 

Cadets and members will be better off reading the documents and askig their CoC first before going to social media.  And sorry kids these days need ro learn, understand and deal with how the real world works and not the illusion that's presented. 

You can stress your point all day long doesn't make you anymore right. 

I bet that if you polled everyone coming here asking questions that if they really read the regs or asked their chain more often they haven't. 

Feed a man a fish he eats for a day teach a man to fish he eats for a lifetime. 

To many kids are coddled and pampered and get a huge reality check when they enter the real world.

???

^^^This is me hoping you don't have any contact with cadets.  Seriously.

As I stated above, I'm a professional educator.  Have been for many years.  I work with ages preschool through 12th grade.  All of my students, past to present, will tell you I don't coddle them nor am I the kind of educator who believes in participation trophies.  So there's that.  On the other hand, we are supposed to be helping cadets (who are ages 12-18), not making things harder for them.  Yeah, I get the fishing/hand-out analogy (I'm a political Conservative, so I get it in spades), but we are talking about children here, not grown adults, not college students, not boot-camp recruits.  We're also talking about children who have to deal with crappy home lives, crappy parents, having trouble in school, being bullied by other students, trying to fit in if they are considered a nerd, and hormones.  They are generally coming to CAP to get direction and have boundaries shown to them, not to feel like they do when they are in school or at home.  CAP should be a learning place but it should also be a safe place.  For some cadets, it may be one of the safest places they have.  We should make sure that feeling of boundaries, direction, and safety happens every time we are around them.

Two things I live by in my work with kids are these two nuggets - they've never failed me, and it's why I have kids come up to me years later, even after they've graduated, telling me I was one of their favorite teachers:

- A child may not remember what you told them, a child may not remember what you taught them, but a child will ALWAYS remember how you made them feel. 
- In a world where you can choose to be anything, choose to be kind, helpful, and respectful.

An educator sweet.  Then you need to be prepping them for the real world.  I work with cadets and have and I can guarentee you that many of them appreciate how I do things and how I don't coddle them and spoon feed them everyhing.  I challenge them to think for themselves to research things.

I'm kind but I'm firm and I work to prep the cadets I work with just like my subordinates for reality.  Guess many may not like it then but many reaxh out years later going ot clicks thank you for being you and how you were with me. 
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THRAWN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,888

« Reply #34 on: November 08, 2018, 06:00:21 PM »

Quote
Man I had something really snazzy for this but I'll keep it to myself. 

Look it up is an appropriate whether it's the first time or the 30th time.  Sorry people have this sense of entitlement that everything is owed to them. 

Cadets and members will be better off reading the documents and askig their CoC first before going to social media.  And sorry kids these days need ro learn, understand and deal with how the real world works and not the illusion that's presented. 

You can stress your point all day long doesn't make you anymore right. 

I bet that if you polled everyone coming here asking questions that if they really read the regs or asked their chain more often they haven't. 

Feed a man a fish he eats for a day teach a man to fish he eats for a lifetime. 

To many kids are coddled and pampered and get a huge reality check when they enter the real world.

???

^^^This is me hoping you don't have any contact with cadets.  Seriously.

As I stated above, I'm a professional educator.  Have been for many years.  I work with ages preschool through 12th grade.  All of my students, past to present, will tell you I don't coddle them nor am I the kind of educator who believes in participation trophies.  So there's that.  On the other hand, we are supposed to be helping cadets (who are ages 12-18), not making things harder for them.  Yeah, I get the fishing/hand-out analogy (I'm a political Conservative, so I get it in spades), but we are talking about children here, not grown adults, not college students, not boot-camp recruits.  We're also talking about children who have to deal with crappy home lives, crappy parents, having trouble in school, being bullied by other students, trying to fit in if they are considered a nerd, and hormones.  They are generally coming to CAP to get direction and have boundaries shown to them, not to feel like they do when they are in school or at home.  CAP should be a learning place but it should also be a safe place.  For some cadets, it may be one of the safest places they have.  We should make sure that feeling of boundaries, direction, and safety happens every time we are around them.

Two things I live by in my work with kids are these two nuggets - they've never failed me, and it's why I have kids come up to me years later, even after they've graduated, telling me I was one of their favorite teachers:

- A child may not remember what you told them, a child may not remember what you taught them, but a child will ALWAYS remember how you made them feel. 
- In a world where you can choose to be anything, choose to be kind, helpful, and respectful.

An educator sweet.  Then you need to be prepping them for the real world.  I work with cadets and have and I can guarentee you that many of them appreciate how I do things and how I don't coddle them and spoon feed them everyhing.  I challenge them to think for themselves to research things.

I'm kind but I'm firm and I work to prep the cadets I work with just like my subordinates for reality.  Guess many may not like it then but many reaxh out years later going ot clicks thank you for being you and how you were with me.

Every single memorable teacher, instructor, professor and my sainted mother answered most of my questions with those 3 little words that every boy with joy in his heart wants to hear:

"Look it up."
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Strup
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SCoontsFan
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« Reply #35 on: November 08, 2018, 06:22:34 PM »


An educator sweet.  Then you need to be prepping them for the real world.

I'm guessing from this comment you believe I'm not prepping them for the real world because of my approach.  If that's the case, you couldn't be more wrong.  That said, it seems that most of you commenting are not trained educators and don't understand the difference between coddling and scaffolding.  In that case, no harm, no foul because of inexperience and lack of education on the subject.   
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Spam
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Posts: 1,142
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« Reply #36 on: November 08, 2018, 06:43:03 PM »

[
^^^This is me hoping you don't have any contact with cadets.  Seriously.

That was you, pivoting from a topical discussion into a targeted ad hominem comment, inside a "Civility" thread.

O irony, again.

V/r
Spam

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THRAWN
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Posts: 1,888

« Reply #37 on: November 08, 2018, 06:44:40 PM »

Ugh....Dave, can we be done being lectured by the educator now?
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Strup
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Spam
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« Reply #38 on: November 08, 2018, 06:48:26 PM »


An educator sweet.  Then you need to be prepping them for the real world.

I'm guessing from this comment you believe I'm not prepping them for the real world because of my approach.  If that's the case, you couldn't be more wrong.  That said, it seems that most of you commenting are not trained educators and don't understand the difference between coddling and scaffolding.  In that case, no harm, no foul because of inexperience and lack of education on the subject.   


https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/21/Appeal-to-Authority

You're on a winning streak here.  Keep going!

Cheers
Spam







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Luis R. Ramos
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Posts: 2,714

« Reply #39 on: November 08, 2018, 06:49:12 PM »

Quote
This is me hoping you don't have any contact with cadets.  Seriously.

Another case of the pot calling the kettle black. If this is what you call "scaffolding" your students...

Quote
In that case, no harm, no foul because of inexperience and lack of education on the subject. 

More pot calling kettle...


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Spam
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« Reply #40 on: November 08, 2018, 06:50:32 PM »

Ugh....Dave, can we be done being lectured by the educator now?

No! Please, not yet!  I'm popping more corn and getting a soda. This is great stuff!

"Civility"... a new term for targeted broad brush disdain. Loving it.

(munching on popcorn)

Cheers
Spam

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THRAWN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,888

« Reply #41 on: November 08, 2018, 06:55:26 PM »

Ugh....Dave, can we be done being lectured by the educator now?

No! Please, not yet!  I'm popping more corn and getting a soda. This is great stuff!

"Civility"... a new term for targeted broad brush disdain. Loving it.

(munching on popcorn)

Cheers
Spam

Behave yourself. lol....
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Strup
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« Reply #42 on: November 08, 2018, 07:06:47 PM »

I really like the idea of this thread. Ignoring all of the back and forth because it would not be helpful to contribute to it, I think that civility is definitely something there should be more of, not just on CAPTalk, but in CAP in general. People remembering that we're all here for one mission, and even when people can get caught up in all of the day to day challenges of being in a squadron and petty squadron politics, sometimes it's just a good idea to look around and appreciate everyone who is volunteering alongside you.
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THRAWN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,888

« Reply #43 on: November 08, 2018, 07:16:09 PM »

I really like the idea of this thread. Ignoring all of the back and forth because it would not be helpful to contribute to it, I think that civility is definitely something there should be more of, not just on CAPTalk, but in CAP in general. People remembering that we're all here for one mission, and even when people can get caught up in all of the day to day challenges of being in a squadron and petty squadron politics, sometimes it's just a good idea to look around and appreciate everyone who is volunteering alongside you.

We're here for 3 missions and not all of us are here for all 3....
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Strup
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Larry Mangum
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Posts: 665

« Reply #44 on: November 08, 2018, 07:32:10 PM »

Telling someone to "Look it up" can be a correct answer, but then maybe they don't know what regulation to look it up in. Perhaps, if a person replied" Cadet Smith, CAPM 39-1 covers patch placement. Pleas refer to the manual and if you still have a question, please come back here and post your question.

Those who have been in CAP for a long time, tend to forget not everyone knows what regulation series covers what or maybe what the latest update/revision says. I have been in CAP for almost 23 years and have served at the squadron, wing, and region levels. My duty positions have included being an ES Director at the wing level, Deputy Director for Operations (ES) at the Region level, been an ICSS instructor, Lead ICSS Instructor, Deputy Commandant ICSS and ICSS Commandant at NESA. In addition I have served on national ES committees twice, and have helped write multiple revisions to CAPR 60-3. So to many people I am a subject matter expert (SME) on Emergency Services as it pertains to CAP. I say this to preface this, a college professor of mine, many years ago started a sophomore class in psychology with the question "Who is the dumbest person in this room?" and after a long pause in which none us answered, stated "It is I because the more I learn the less I know".  Which means no matter if you are a SME on something there is always more to learn and always someone who knows more than you do on a particular subject. For that reason alone, we need to check our ego's and open our ears, for sometimes that is how we learn new things or get new ideas.

Also don't assume common knowledge is all that common. What may have been "common knowledge" a few years ago, may no longer be common.
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Larry Mangum, Lt Col CAP
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SarDragon
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« Reply #45 on: November 08, 2018, 09:01:04 PM »

Wow guy, I thought this could remain civil. No such luck. Irony at its finest.

I'm going to make a final comment of my own, as a forum member - there has been mention a couple of times of folks not liking what they hear, and continuing to argue their point as "I'm right and you're not". There is more than one of you doing exactly that thing.

So, at the request of more tham one poster, we are done here. With a little disappointment, Click.
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Dave Bowles
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