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November 16, 2018, 03:55:04 AM
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CAP Talk  |  Cadet Programs  |  Cadet Programs Management & Activities  |  Topic: cac
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Eclipse
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Posts: 29,246

« Reply #20 on: November 02, 2018, 09:07:39 AM »

Why on Earth would an assistant rep be s/elected as a CAC Officer
over a primary?
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jeders
Global Moderator

Posts: 2,111

« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2018, 09:16:15 AM »

You can't serve on a CAC, at any level, without being an approved rep to that level, even NHQ.

There are only "primaries" and "assistants" - no ad hoc participation.

Primary reps are already allowed to wear the cord of their level, regardless of whether they
hold an office on that respective CAC.

Assistant reps, per 60-1, have no function except to fill-in when the primary cannot participate.

"7.3.4. Role of Assistant Representatives. Assistant representatives have no vote, unless the primary
representative is absent. Assistants should participate in all CAC meetings, if feasible."


Ergo, the only cadets eligible to be a "CAC Officer" (Chair, Vice, Recorder), are already wearing cords.

And no, assistant reps can't be s/elected as the Chair, Vice-Chair or Recorder, that would be ridiculous.

You keep saying these things, but you don't back any of it up with regulatory cites; so again, cite please.
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If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse
TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,529

« Reply #22 on: November 02, 2018, 09:32:56 AM »

You can't serve on a CAC, at any level, without being an approved rep to that level, even NHQ.

There are only "primaries" and "assistants" - no ad hoc participation.

Primary reps are already allowed to wear the cord of their level, regardless of whether they
hold an office on that respective CAC.

Assistant reps, per 60-1, have no function except to fill-in when the primary cannot participate.

"7.3.4. Role of Assistant Representatives. Assistant representatives have no vote, unless the primary
representative is absent. Assistants should participate in all CAC meetings, if feasible."


Ergo, the only cadets eligible to be a "CAC Officer" (Chair, Vice, Recorder), are already wearing cords.

And no, assistant reps can't be s/elected as the Chair, Vice-Chair or Recorder, that would be ridiculous.

You keep saying these things, but you don't back any of it up with regulatory cites; so again, cite please.


CAPR 52-19, CAC Guide:
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/P052_019_1584425C1735C.pdf

Page 9
Primary Representatives
  • Represents the perspective and best interests of the cadets in their home echelon;
  • Regularly attends all CAC meetings; if unable to attend, coordinates with the assistant representative and the chair;
  • Keeps cadets in home echelon informed of CAC activities.

Assistant Representatives
  • Same as primary representative; attends as many CAC meetings as logistically feasible;
  • Participates in votes, when the primary representative is absent.


NOTE: CAPP 52-19 is outdated and intended to be replaced with CAPP 60-34 (yet to be released).
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Eclipse
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Posts: 29,246

« Reply #23 on: November 02, 2018, 09:55:22 AM »

^^ Thank you.

Further to this, and I will grant that "logic" isn't always applicable to CAP regs, especially in cases like this, but...

You can't be an "assistant" if there isn't a primary also appointed (what cadet would allow himself to be appointed
as an assistant rep, do the work, and not earn the dec (leaving the cord conflict aside)?  Makes no sense.

If the cadets appointed as primaries can't or won't be s/elected to be one of the 3 required CAC offices,
why would they not be replaced?

Are you saying a non-voting assistant could be s/elected as the Chair or Vice? That's not how it works and makes no sense.

« Last Edit: November 02, 2018, 10:17:05 AM by Eclipse » Logged


Eclipse
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Posts: 29,246

« Reply #24 on: November 02, 2018, 10:09:54 AM »

Also, the NCAC may be an anomaly in itself, since the most recent photo shows at least five (5) cadets wearing
a gold cord, so either they are all primaries, which makes sense, or...reasons?



Then on Facebook they are showing nine (9) cadets wearing gold and one with blue.
Presumably the blue cadet is a region assistance, but 9?  They can't all be primaries, and
there's only three CAC officers...

« Last Edit: November 02, 2018, 10:25:06 AM by Eclipse » Logged


Capmonkey
Forum Regular

Posts: 107

« Reply #25 on: November 02, 2018, 10:38:35 AM »

As I was there, I can clear this up. The cadet in the blue cord is an assistant for his region, as the primary could not attend. The Recorder could not attend as well. There are 10 cadets total in the photo, representatives from all 8 regions (gold cords) and the Chair and Vice Chair. So to clear it up, there are EIGHT ( 8 ) cadets wearing gold cords, and one wearing blue.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #26 on: November 02, 2018, 10:58:19 AM »

I count nine (9) gold cords.
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Capmonkey
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Posts: 107

« Reply #27 on: November 02, 2018, 11:00:45 AM »

I didn't count the Vice Chair, but still. Primaries wear the gold cords, and so do the officers. Nothing about this changes the matter. Assistants can do as much work as Primaries, and shouldn't be restricted from running for positions. I think that's just a disgrace if they are.
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Luis R. Ramos
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Posts: 2,714

« Reply #28 on: November 02, 2018, 11:01:20 AM »

So do I.


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Capmonkey
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Posts: 107

« Reply #29 on: November 02, 2018, 11:02:31 AM »

8 region primaries, 2 officers=10 cadets... 1 being Assistant=9/10 with gold cords. There's the math.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #30 on: November 02, 2018, 11:08:17 AM »

Assistants can do as much work as Primaries, and shouldn't be restricted from running for positions. I think that's just a disgrace if they are.

Regardless of what CACs may be doing, that't clearly not the case in regards to who the regs and pamphlets are written.
If the intention was to make the Assistants fully-participate, they'd earn a ribbon at least.
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Eclipse
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Posts: 29,246

« Reply #31 on: November 02, 2018, 11:08:52 AM »

8 region primaries, 2 officers=10 cadets... 1 being Assistant=9/10 with gold cords. There's the math.

Where do the two officers come from if not the primary pool?
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Capmonkey
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Posts: 107

« Reply #32 on: November 02, 2018, 11:16:55 AM »

National HQ opens applications, and all Eaker Recipients who can serve a full term before they turn 21 are eligible to apply. Then the NATIONAL Commander appoints them. No where in the application process does it say that you must be a representative to run for an officer position. It's even written in the Bylaws for NCAC that you can be an assistant and run for positions. And assistants earning the ribbon has been talked about recently, FYI.
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Eclipse
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Posts: 29,246

« Reply #33 on: November 02, 2018, 11:18:30 AM »

National HQ opens applications, and all Eaker Recipients who can serve a full term before they turn 21 are eligible to apply. Then the NATIONAL Commander appoints them. No where in the application process does it say that you must be a representative to run for an officer position. It's even written in the Bylaws for NCAC that you can be an assistant and run for positions. And assistants earning the ribbon has been talked about recently, FYI.

Fair enough, however I've already allowed that the NCAC seems to operate as its own thing, with for starters
any cadet being allowed to apply, regardless of being on another CAC.

That's not the case for the rest of them.
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Capmonkey
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Posts: 107

« Reply #34 on: November 02, 2018, 11:36:15 AM »

NCAC is not their "own" thing. We function under CAPR 60-1, Chapter 7, CAPP 52-19, and the soon to be new CAC guide, as every CAC in group, wing, region does. As stated in the Constitution and Bylaws of National CAC, the objects and purposes of the National CAC shall be: Provide an organization where cadets gain leadership experience and opportunities at higher organizational levels, Provide HQ CAP, the National Cadet Programs Committee, and the NATIONAL COMMANDER insight on Cadet Programs development and implementation, and to make recommendations for improving and managing the Cadet Program and Civil Air Patrol's missions.

For you to say that NCAC does their "own" thing, while we report to the National Commander, we've met with the National Commander and Vice Commander, is completely wrong. You're stating that not all cadets should serve on CAC. CAC is a LEARNING OPPORTUNITY. Every cadet should have the opportunity on every echelon, whether they are a primary or a representative. I'll end my rant now, but respectfully, it seems you're not quite pro-CAC at any echelon, sir.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2018, 11:40:46 AM by Capmonkey » Logged
Eclipse
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Posts: 29,246

« Reply #35 on: November 02, 2018, 11:49:22 AM »

Whether or not anyone is, or isn't "pro-CAC" hasn't come up in this discussion whatsoever,
you're reading your own assumptions into this.

I, as well as plenty of others, are pro "that makes sense or it doesn't", because when you
have policies, procedures, or programs within CAP that don't make logical sense, there
are moms and cadets who start asking "why".

In this case, the reg for CP directly conflicts with the reg for uniforms.  39-1 says "only primaries".
60-1 says "primaries and officers". 39-1 asserts it is the sole authority for uniform wear (despite the
fact that it clearly isn't).

Assistant reps get neither a cord nor a decoration, but can serve as an "officer"?  That also makes no
sense.

Now, consider that many cadets pursue CAC as another "thing to bling", and you have mom who
wants to know why her cadet didn't get a ribbon or can't wear the cord "like everyone else". Etc., etc..
« Last Edit: November 02, 2018, 11:52:26 AM by Eclipse » Logged


Capmonkey
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Posts: 107

« Reply #36 on: November 02, 2018, 11:52:25 AM »

If the cadet is in it for the bling, they are in it for the wrong reasons. Officers should be allowed, as they are now, to wear the cords, because they put more work in than the primaries and alternates combined, because they have to deal with the council, as well as reporting this to the higher echelons. Just my views, but I'll stop talking now.
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Eclipse
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Posts: 29,246

« Reply #37 on: November 02, 2018, 11:54:23 AM »

If the cadet is in it for the bling, they are in it for the wrong reasons.

Agreed.  Sadly this is the primary motivator for a lot of CAC cadets.

Officers should be allowed, as they are now, to wear the cords, because they put more work in than the primaries and alternates combined, because they have to deal with the council, as well as reporting this to the higher echelons.

They aren't "alternates", they are assistants, though that term is pretty common.

And again, why would the assistants be holding one of the staff roles instead of a primary?

Where are the primaries?

How does that make any sense?
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Capmonkey
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Posts: 107

« Reply #38 on: November 02, 2018, 11:57:34 AM »

The assistants are holding one of the staff roles instead of the primary because they were motivated enough to run for the position, and the Council believed in the talents of the individual. It happens all the time. The primaries are still active, functioning as representatives. It makes total sense, when you look at the assistants as motivated cadets, just like all of us. Don't discount assistants, as they are still a significant part of the Council. Just because they can't vote doesn't mean they aren't involved.
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Eclipse
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Posts: 29,246

« Reply #39 on: November 02, 2018, 12:07:37 PM »

^ Then they should be getting the dec.

As a CC, if I found out my Primary wasn't motivated enough to run for an office, and
my Assistant was, I'd be making a change in assignments.

Frankly I've never understood why there is any distinction, and that the cords and decs aren't presented to
both.  If they are equal, then why demotivate a cadet to participate.

I don't agree with the assertion you're making, but assuming it's true, that means the primary can
sit back, never show to meetings, and wear the cord and earn the dec, while an assistant goes
to every meeting, works hard, and gets nothing?

How does that math work?  Or is this part and parcel about why there are issues generally with
cadets not being interested in CAC?
« Last Edit: November 02, 2018, 12:13:11 PM by Eclipse » Logged


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CAP Talk  |  Cadet Programs  |  Cadet Programs Management & Activities  |  Topic: cac
 


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