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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: Interim Change Letter, CAPR 20-1
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Author Topic: Interim Change Letter, CAPR 20-1  (Read 1958 times)
Luis R. Ramos
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,663

« on: September 07, 2018, 12:36:28 PM »

Received this ICL just a few minutes ago.

Interesting notes:

1. Specifically states Chaplains cannot hold command. Interesting because I have seen Chaplains issued the ICS Emergency Services specialty. Cannot hold a squadron commander appointment, but can command in a mission? Can someone discuss this?
2. States that NCOs cannot be appointed as squadron commanders.
3. Specifically states that if there are questions, members can call Ms Suzie Parker. Many members of this forum would call her on issues related to Personnel, and others would complain her information was not relevant as she was not in the regulation. Or similar not exact words. Will this be enough to quiet the nay-sayers? Or will the nay-sayers now say information from her applies only to this regulation? Note that I am not questioning the request. Just would like to see comments on the notes I am posting.

https://doc-04-bs-apps-viewer.googleusercontent.com/viewer/secure/pdf/65icv38bfgg6lmiqqeh3tv51h7h0klbt/rb8nij3elgjbboieeset3tms4bce0kf3/1536337350000/gmail/14281464837379240891/ACFrOgAZm6U7zZsyqI5chiMwqtTO13KN2ssO7TZG4TeldSRtP_2Rr9ReTB4c9xG86vhXFJAwwd6038FizaNVNNHHW7mQd7YA129P-s3IA5LNkIhbb3qtVTc30GJGJns=?print=true&nonce=holgo4diak0co&user=14281464837379240891&hash=0m90d0f2635252nvfi61510rh4dqnceu
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Squadron Administrative Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,944

« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2018, 01:53:11 PM »

Can you either attach the PDF directly or refer to an authoritative link?
What you have fails as it appears to a gmail embed.

There isn't currently any recent ICL to 20-1 on the web or eservices.

Also the URL broke through the side of my monitor and continued down the street,
injuring three children waiting for a school bus.

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winterg
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 746
Unit: SER-FL-182

« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2018, 02:13:57 PM »

Here is a copy of the ICL that was mailed to CAP NCO from the CAP Command Chief yesterday. I dont see it actually published anywhere yet. Also included is a screenshot of the accompanying email. I haven't done a side by side comparison but it looks like a copy/paste of the proposed changes released last March I believe.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1EU37IKdKxYl4VtE6Sz9LR-R5jr2A-8ZQ/view?usp=drivesdk

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

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Jester
Seasoned Member

Posts: 335

« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2018, 02:15:12 PM »

Attached (I think).

And here is the link on goCAP.com:

https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/ICL_1806_R201_4_Sep_18_865613378A514.pdf
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Luis R. Ramos
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,663

« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2018, 02:32:14 PM »

Thank you for attaching those links.

I am not that technically savvy to deal with attachments on this forum. I hate whenever I see messages extending that long. I have a 17 inch monitor,
but the URL broke my monitor's edge, broke through a window of a Popeye's glass, and barely missed a bystander outside. Sorry for that!
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Squadron Administrative Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,944

« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2018, 02:33:25 PM »

1. Specifically states Chaplains cannot hold command. Interesting because I have seen Chaplains issued the ICS Emergency Services specialty. Cannot hold a squadron commander appointment, but can command in a mission? Can someone discuss this?

This is not a change, it's always been prohibited.  It's in gray because the letter changed form "d" to "f".
The section is only in reference to units and similar echelons.

CAPR 265-1, Page 4 lists these as prohibited activities and is silent in regards to IC.
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/R265_001_538BD6B239386.pdf
"b. Chaplains are not eligible to serve as a CAP commander, deputy commander, testing
officer, or be designated as an investigating officer as prescribed by CAPR 123-2. "


2. States that NCOs cannot be appointed as squadron commanders.

Interesting, so this year it's "wax off".

There are a number of NCOs sitting as unit CCs, so I guess they ain't no mo'

3. Specifically states that if there are questions, members can call Ms Suzie Parker.

Ms. Parker is frequently cited as the contact person for various documents and issues.

That doesn't change the fact that she isn't in the volunteer chain and should only reference published verbiage.
The issue is in cases of ambiguity where she may be asked to interpret things reserved to the volunteer chain.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2018, 02:37:54 PM by Eclipse » Logged


PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,204

« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2018, 02:54:40 PM »

Received this ICL just a few minutes ago.

Interesting notes:

1. Specifically states Chaplains cannot hold command. Interesting because I have seen Chaplains issued the ICS Emergency Services specialty. Cannot hold a squadron commander appointment, but can command in a mission? Can someone discuss this?
2. States that NCOs cannot be appointed as squadron commanders.
3. Specifically states that if there are questions, members can call Ms Suzie Parker. Many members of this forum would call her on issues related to Personnel, and others would complain her information was not relevant as she was not in the regulation. Or similar not exact words. Will this be enough to quiet the nay-sayers? Or will the nay-sayers now say information from her applies only to this regulation? Note that I am not questioning the request. Just would like to see comments on the notes I am posting.


You are confusing the position of Unit Commander with the ES Specialty of Incident Commander. Totally different things. Like comparing apples to watermelons.
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Jester
Seasoned Member

Posts: 335

« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2018, 02:58:07 PM »



2. States that NCOs cannot be appointed as squadron commanders.

Interesting, so this year it's "wax off".

There are a number of NCOs sitting as unit CCs, so I guess they ain't no mo'



Who is doing this and where?  The only one I knew of at a squadron level was a CMSgt in CAWG and I heard he had stepped down. 

If it's a flight, SNCO commanders are GTG. 
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Luis R. Ramos
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,663

« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2018, 03:10:22 PM »

Oh, come on!

Hall, after 15 years as Emergency Services Officer for several squadrons, and after holding a Squadron Commander position and several Deputy Commander in
three different squadrons during my 25 year CAP career, how can you ever think I would confuse the two very different positions? Don't be so naïve!

Instead of trying to turn it into a personal comment, why don't you post why Chaplains can be ICLs and not squadron commanders?


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Squadron Administrative Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer
Eclipse
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Posts: 28,944

« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2018, 03:11:05 PM »



2. States that NCOs cannot be appointed as squadron commanders.

Interesting, so this year it's "wax off".

There are a number of NCOs sitting as unit CCs, so I guess they ain't no mo'



Who is doing this and where?  The only one I knew of at a squadron level was a CMSgt in CAWG and I heard he had stepped down. 

If it's a flight, SNCO commanders are GTG.

I can't say for sure where, but the last time this was discussed, there were a handful of NCOs serving
as sitting CC's.  This may well have changed.

Up until today, and for the last few years, the prohibition had been removed. Or maybe it was put back, then removed,
then put back?  Seriously, it's a revolving door.
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PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,204

« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2018, 04:34:28 PM »



2. States that NCOs cannot be appointed as squadron commanders.

Interesting, so this year it's "wax off".

There are a number of NCOs sitting as unit CCs, so I guess they ain't no mo'



Who is doing this and where?  The only one I knew of at a squadron level was a CMSgt in CAWG and I heard he had stepped down. 

If it's a flight, SNCO commanders are GTG.

The CMSgt in CAWG stepped down as Squadron Commander to become the Wing Command Chief.
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PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,204

« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2018, 04:38:35 PM »

Oh, come on!

Hall, after 15 years as Emergency Services Officer for several squadrons, and after holding a Squadron Commander position and several Deputy Commander in
three different squadrons during my 25 year CAP career, how can you ever think I would confuse the two very different positions? Don't be so naïve!

Instead of trying to turn it into a personal comment, why don't you post why Chaplains can be ICLs and not squadron commanders?

Because the reg that governs Chaplains says they can't be a Commander at the same time they're serving as a Chaplain.
A Chaplain can be a Commander, but they can not be serving as a Chaplain at the same time. It's either one or the other.
Happy?
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TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,395

« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2018, 08:17:10 PM »

Chaplains being ineligible to serve as commanders is not a new concept. That's been policy for some time, as noted in the fact that the ICL does not highlight the change (therefore, it's not a change, but restated assertion).

1. Chaplains cannot be unit commanders.
2. NCOs cannot be squadron commanders.
3. Whaaaa?
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Mitchell 1969
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 806
Unit: PCR-CA-051

« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2018, 10:28:35 PM »

Among other things, I noticed that the ICL spells out some specific potential duties for NCOs. I thought it interesting that Chief Master Sergeants and Senior Master Sergeants were eligible for the:

"Directors of Summer Encampments."

But...what IS a "Director of Summer Encampment?"
Is that even in the Encampment reg?
Is it on an org chart somewhere, and, if so, where?
What is the reporting relationship between the Encampment Commander and the Director of Encampment?

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Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,944

« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2018, 10:35:21 PM »

There isn't a single duty highlighted in that document that cannot be, and isn't already being, performed
by "members", with performance as always, based solely on relevent experience and ability, absent and
irrespective of their grade or even prior military service.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,944

« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2018, 10:42:04 PM »

Among other things, I noticed that the ICL spells out some specific potential duties for NCOs. I thought it interesting that Chief Master Sergeants and Senior Master Sergeants were eligible for the:

"Directors of Summer Encampments."

But...what IS a "Director of Summer Encampment?"
Is that even in the Encampment reg?
Is it on an org chart somewhere, and, if so, where?
What is the reporting relationship between the Encampment Commander and the Director of Encampment?

It's not in anything that exists today, but then again, October is coming.

Presumably this nomenclature is or would change to allow an NCO to head the activity without
accidentally getting near the word "commander", however that would be wholly inappropriate
from a framework and modeling perspective.

Encampments, especially, are supposed to models of the Cadet Program at scale, and where possible,
provide leadership activities appropriate to grade and scale.

Where in the military would you have a a SMSgt with command authority over 100-150 people
including 30 some officers, a large portion of which may be field grade.

People get themselves wrapped around the axle about camo - how would that look to Uncle Blue?

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PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,204

« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2018, 10:54:56 PM »

Among other things, I noticed that the ICL spells out some specific potential duties for NCOs. I thought it interesting that Chief Master Sergeants and Senior Master Sergeants were eligible for the:

"Directors of Summer Encampments."

But...what IS a "Director of Summer Encampment?"
Is that even in the Encampment reg?
Is it on an org chart somewhere, and, if so, where?
What is the reporting relationship between the Encampment Commander and the Director of Encampment?


The Senior Members on the Encampment Staff doing stuff like Admin and Logistics are Director of Administration and Director of Logistics.
Their Cadet Staff counterparts are the OIC of Admin, etc.

Clear as mud? ;)
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SouthernCross
Recruit

Posts: 32

« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2018, 11:01:02 PM »

If approved, the new regulation that will replace 265-1 will state "Chaplains are not eligible to serve as a CAP commander, deputy commander, testing officer, inspector general, or be designated as an investigating officer. Chaplains may serve as inspector on an inspection team."   
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SouthernCross
Recruit

Posts: 32

« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2018, 11:04:42 PM »

If approved, the new regulation that will replace 265-1 will state "Chaplains are not eligible to serve as a CAP commander,
deputy commander, testing officer, inspector general, or be designated as an investigating officer. Chaplains may serve
as inspector on an inspection team."
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Nick
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 518
Unit: SWR-TX-001

« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2018, 11:10:11 PM »

"Directors of Summer Encampments."

But...what IS a "Director of Summer Encampment?"
Is that even in the Encampment reg?
Is it on an org chart somewhere, and, if so, where?
What is the reporting relationship between the Encampment Commander and the Director of Encampment?

I would note that, AFAIK, encampments are the only activity that has a “commander”. Everything else has an “activity director”. So maybe this is trying to align encampments with all other activities out there.
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Nicholas McLarty, Lt Col, CAP
Texas Wing Staff Guy
National Cadet Team Guy
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: Interim Change Letter, CAPR 20-1
 


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