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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: Interim Change Letter, CAPR 20-1
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Author Topic: Interim Change Letter, CAPR 20-1  (Read 2505 times)
Luis R. Ramos
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,716

« on: September 07, 2018, 12:36:28 PM »

Received this ICL just a few minutes ago.

Interesting notes:

1. Specifically states Chaplains cannot hold command. Interesting because I have seen Chaplains issued the ICS Emergency Services specialty. Cannot hold a squadron commander appointment, but can command in a mission? Can someone discuss this?
2. States that NCOs cannot be appointed as squadron commanders.
3. Specifically states that if there are questions, members can call Ms Suzie Parker. Many members of this forum would call her on issues related to Personnel, and others would complain her information was not relevant as she was not in the regulation. Or similar not exact words. Will this be enough to quiet the nay-sayers? Or will the nay-sayers now say information from her applies only to this regulation? Note that I am not questioning the request. Just would like to see comments on the notes I am posting.

https://doc-04-bs-apps-viewer.googleusercontent.com/viewer/secure/pdf/65icv38bfgg6lmiqqeh3tv51h7h0klbt/rb8nij3elgjbboieeset3tms4bce0kf3/1536337350000/gmail/14281464837379240891/ACFrOgAZm6U7zZsyqI5chiMwqtTO13KN2ssO7TZG4TeldSRtP_2Rr9ReTB4c9xG86vhXFJAwwd6038FizaNVNNHHW7mQd7YA129P-s3IA5LNkIhbb3qtVTc30GJGJns=?print=true&nonce=holgo4diak0co&user=14281464837379240891&hash=0m90d0f2635252nvfi61510rh4dqnceu
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Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer
Eclipse
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Posts: 29,260

« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2018, 01:53:11 PM »

Can you either attach the PDF directly or refer to an authoritative link?
What you have fails as it appears to a gmail embed.

There isn't currently any recent ICL to 20-1 on the web or eservices.

Also the URL broke through the side of my monitor and continued down the street,
injuring three children waiting for a school bus.

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winterg
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 746
Unit: SER-FL-182

« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2018, 02:13:57 PM »

Here is a copy of the ICL that was mailed to CAP NCO from the CAP Command Chief yesterday. I dont see it actually published anywhere yet. Also included is a screenshot of the accompanying email. I haven't done a side by side comparison but it looks like a copy/paste of the proposed changes released last March I believe.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1EU37IKdKxYl4VtE6Sz9LR-R5jr2A-8ZQ/view?usp=drivesdk

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

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Jester
Seasoned Member

Posts: 358

« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2018, 02:15:12 PM »

Attached (I think).

And here is the link on goCAP.com:

https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/ICL_1806_R201_4_Sep_18_865613378A514.pdf
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Luis R. Ramos
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Posts: 2,716

« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2018, 02:32:14 PM »

Thank you for attaching those links.

I am not that technically savvy to deal with attachments on this forum. I hate whenever I see messages extending that long. I have a 17 inch monitor,
but the URL broke my monitor's edge, broke through a window of a Popeye's glass, and barely missed a bystander outside. Sorry for that!
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Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
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Eclipse
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« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2018, 02:33:25 PM »

1. Specifically states Chaplains cannot hold command. Interesting because I have seen Chaplains issued the ICS Emergency Services specialty. Cannot hold a squadron commander appointment, but can command in a mission? Can someone discuss this?

This is not a change, it's always been prohibited.  It's in gray because the letter changed form "d" to "f".
The section is only in reference to units and similar echelons.

CAPR 265-1, Page 4 lists these as prohibited activities and is silent in regards to IC.
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/R265_001_538BD6B239386.pdf
"b. Chaplains are not eligible to serve as a CAP commander, deputy commander, testing
officer, or be designated as an investigating officer as prescribed by CAPR 123-2. "


2. States that NCOs cannot be appointed as squadron commanders.

Interesting, so this year it's "wax off".

There are a number of NCOs sitting as unit CCs, so I guess they ain't no mo'

3. Specifically states that if there are questions, members can call Ms Suzie Parker.

Ms. Parker is frequently cited as the contact person for various documents and issues.

That doesn't change the fact that she isn't in the volunteer chain and should only reference published verbiage.
The issue is in cases of ambiguity where she may be asked to interpret things reserved to the volunteer chain.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2018, 02:37:54 PM by Eclipse » Logged


PHall
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Posts: 6,317

« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2018, 02:54:40 PM »

Received this ICL just a few minutes ago.

Interesting notes:

1. Specifically states Chaplains cannot hold command. Interesting because I have seen Chaplains issued the ICS Emergency Services specialty. Cannot hold a squadron commander appointment, but can command in a mission? Can someone discuss this?
2. States that NCOs cannot be appointed as squadron commanders.
3. Specifically states that if there are questions, members can call Ms Suzie Parker. Many members of this forum would call her on issues related to Personnel, and others would complain her information was not relevant as she was not in the regulation. Or similar not exact words. Will this be enough to quiet the nay-sayers? Or will the nay-sayers now say information from her applies only to this regulation? Note that I am not questioning the request. Just would like to see comments on the notes I am posting.


You are confusing the position of Unit Commander with the ES Specialty of Incident Commander. Totally different things. Like comparing apples to watermelons.
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Jester
Seasoned Member

Posts: 358

« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2018, 02:58:07 PM »



2. States that NCOs cannot be appointed as squadron commanders.

Interesting, so this year it's "wax off".

There are a number of NCOs sitting as unit CCs, so I guess they ain't no mo'



Who is doing this and where?  The only one I knew of at a squadron level was a CMSgt in CAWG and I heard he had stepped down. 

If it's a flight, SNCO commanders are GTG. 
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Luis R. Ramos
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Posts: 2,716

« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2018, 03:10:22 PM »

Oh, come on!

Hall, after 15 years as Emergency Services Officer for several squadrons, and after holding a Squadron Commander position and several Deputy Commander in
three different squadrons during my 25 year CAP career, how can you ever think I would confuse the two very different positions? Don't be so naïve!

Instead of trying to turn it into a personal comment, why don't you post why Chaplains can be ICLs and not squadron commanders?


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Squadron Safety Officer
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Eclipse
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Posts: 29,260

« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2018, 03:11:05 PM »



2. States that NCOs cannot be appointed as squadron commanders.

Interesting, so this year it's "wax off".

There are a number of NCOs sitting as unit CCs, so I guess they ain't no mo'



Who is doing this and where?  The only one I knew of at a squadron level was a CMSgt in CAWG and I heard he had stepped down. 

If it's a flight, SNCO commanders are GTG.

I can't say for sure where, but the last time this was discussed, there were a handful of NCOs serving
as sitting CC's.  This may well have changed.

Up until today, and for the last few years, the prohibition had been removed. Or maybe it was put back, then removed,
then put back?  Seriously, it's a revolving door.
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PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,317

« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2018, 04:34:28 PM »



2. States that NCOs cannot be appointed as squadron commanders.

Interesting, so this year it's "wax off".

There are a number of NCOs sitting as unit CCs, so I guess they ain't no mo'



Who is doing this and where?  The only one I knew of at a squadron level was a CMSgt in CAWG and I heard he had stepped down. 

If it's a flight, SNCO commanders are GTG.

The CMSgt in CAWG stepped down as Squadron Commander to become the Wing Command Chief.
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PHall
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Posts: 6,317

« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2018, 04:38:35 PM »

Oh, come on!

Hall, after 15 years as Emergency Services Officer for several squadrons, and after holding a Squadron Commander position and several Deputy Commander in
three different squadrons during my 25 year CAP career, how can you ever think I would confuse the two very different positions? Don't be so naïve!

Instead of trying to turn it into a personal comment, why don't you post why Chaplains can be ICLs and not squadron commanders?

Because the reg that governs Chaplains says they can't be a Commander at the same time they're serving as a Chaplain.
A Chaplain can be a Commander, but they can not be serving as a Chaplain at the same time. It's either one or the other.
Happy?
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TheSkyHornet
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Posts: 1,533

« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2018, 08:17:10 PM »

Chaplains being ineligible to serve as commanders is not a new concept. That's been policy for some time, as noted in the fact that the ICL does not highlight the change (therefore, it's not a change, but restated assertion).

1. Chaplains cannot be unit commanders.
2. NCOs cannot be squadron commanders.
3. Whaaaa?
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Mitchell 1969
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Posts: 846
Unit: PCR-CA-051

« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2018, 10:28:35 PM »

Among other things, I noticed that the ICL spells out some specific potential duties for NCOs. I thought it interesting that Chief Master Sergeants and Senior Master Sergeants were eligible for the:

"Directors of Summer Encampments."

But...what IS a "Director of Summer Encampment?"
Is that even in the Encampment reg?
Is it on an org chart somewhere, and, if so, where?
What is the reporting relationship between the Encampment Commander and the Director of Encampment?

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Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
Eclipse
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Posts: 29,260

« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2018, 10:35:21 PM »

There isn't a single duty highlighted in that document that cannot be, and isn't already being, performed
by "members", with performance as always, based solely on relevent experience and ability, absent and
irrespective of their grade or even prior military service.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2018, 10:42:04 PM »

Among other things, I noticed that the ICL spells out some specific potential duties for NCOs. I thought it interesting that Chief Master Sergeants and Senior Master Sergeants were eligible for the:

"Directors of Summer Encampments."

But...what IS a "Director of Summer Encampment?"
Is that even in the Encampment reg?
Is it on an org chart somewhere, and, if so, where?
What is the reporting relationship between the Encampment Commander and the Director of Encampment?

It's not in anything that exists today, but then again, October is coming.

Presumably this nomenclature is or would change to allow an NCO to head the activity without
accidentally getting near the word "commander", however that would be wholly inappropriate
from a framework and modeling perspective.

Encampments, especially, are supposed to models of the Cadet Program at scale, and where possible,
provide leadership activities appropriate to grade and scale.

Where in the military would you have a a SMSgt with command authority over 100-150 people
including 30 some officers, a large portion of which may be field grade.

People get themselves wrapped around the axle about camo - how would that look to Uncle Blue?

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PHall
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Posts: 6,317

« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2018, 10:54:56 PM »

Among other things, I noticed that the ICL spells out some specific potential duties for NCOs. I thought it interesting that Chief Master Sergeants and Senior Master Sergeants were eligible for the:

"Directors of Summer Encampments."

But...what IS a "Director of Summer Encampment?"
Is that even in the Encampment reg?
Is it on an org chart somewhere, and, if so, where?
What is the reporting relationship between the Encampment Commander and the Director of Encampment?


The Senior Members on the Encampment Staff doing stuff like Admin and Logistics are Director of Administration and Director of Logistics.
Their Cadet Staff counterparts are the OIC of Admin, etc.

Clear as mud? ;)
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SouthernCross
Recruit

Posts: 32

« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2018, 11:01:02 PM »

If approved, the new regulation that will replace 265-1 will state "Chaplains are not eligible to serve as a CAP commander, deputy commander, testing officer, inspector general, or be designated as an investigating officer. Chaplains may serve as inspector on an inspection team."   
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SouthernCross
Recruit

Posts: 32

« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2018, 11:04:42 PM »

If approved, the new regulation that will replace 265-1 will state "Chaplains are not eligible to serve as a CAP commander,
deputy commander, testing officer, inspector general, or be designated as an investigating officer. Chaplains may serve
as inspector on an inspection team."
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Nick
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Posts: 519
Unit: SWR-TX-001

« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2018, 11:10:11 PM »

"Directors of Summer Encampments."

But...what IS a "Director of Summer Encampment?"
Is that even in the Encampment reg?
Is it on an org chart somewhere, and, if so, where?
What is the reporting relationship between the Encampment Commander and the Director of Encampment?

I would note that, AFAIK, encampments are the only activity that has a “commander”. Everything else has an “activity director”. So maybe this is trying to align encampments with all other activities out there.
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Nicholas McLarty, Lt Col, CAP
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Eclipse
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« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2018, 11:31:26 PM »

True enough, though Encampments are one of the few large-scale activities
with an end-goal of modeling the Cadet Program's structure and military environment.

Most other activities and NCSAs include that to one degree or another, but have other
goals or missions such as flight training, emergency services, career exploration, etc.
outside modeling what CAP is to newer cadets.
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TheSkyHornet
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Posts: 1,533

« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2018, 01:35:02 PM »

The Encampment Commander is the person "running" Encampment whilst ongoing.

The Director is the person who oversees all of Encampment, to include the planning. Under the Cadet Program regulations, "activity directors" are responsible for the management of safety, adherence to regulations, and cadet protection.

The Director can also be the Commander.


Remember: NCOs cannot be unit commanders. Encampment is not a "unit." It's an activity.
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Mitchell 1969
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« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2018, 03:46:40 AM »

The Encampment Commander is the person "running" Encampment whilst ongoing.

The Director is the person who oversees all of Encampment, to include the planning. Under the Cadet Program regulations, "activity directors" are responsible for the management of safety, adherence to regulations, and cadet protection.

The Director can also be the Commander.


Remember: NCOs cannot be unit commanders. Encampment is not a "unit." It's an activity.

So...NCOs cannot command squadrons of 15-20 people, but can command encampments of 250 people?

Is there any logic in that somewhere?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
TheSkyHornet
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Posts: 1,533

« Reply #23 on: September 09, 2018, 03:03:59 PM »

The Encampment Commander is the person "running" Encampment whilst ongoing.

The Director is the person who oversees all of Encampment, to include the planning. Under the Cadet Program regulations, "activity directors" are responsible for the management of safety, adherence to regulations, and cadet protection.

The Director can also be the Commander.


Remember: NCOs cannot be unit commanders. Encampment is not a "unit." It's an activity.

So...NCOs cannot command squadrons of 15-20 people, but can command encampments of 250 people?

Is there any logic in that somewhere?

Honestly, what difference does it make really if NCOs were able to command a squadron?

In CAP, NCOs and officers are essentially the same jobs, at least at the squadron level. There's no distinction if you have an TSgt as your Safety Officer or Emergency Services Officer versus a 1st Lt.

So don't disagree with what you're getting at. I can see if CAP is trying to better align NCO command roles with traditional military NCO logic. But there's only so far they can take it with the structure of CAP and "volunteerisms." We're on the same page here in theory. But in practicality, what's the difference?
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Eclipse
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« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2018, 03:19:05 PM »

Your logic is both unwelcome and sound.
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #25 on: September 09, 2018, 03:43:27 PM »

Your logic is both unwelcome and sound.

In which sense?
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Eclipse
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« Reply #26 on: September 09, 2018, 03:50:53 PM »

Your logic is both unwelcome and sound.

In which sense?

Those involved with the proliferation of the NCO program in CAP will at the same time
say that grade is meaningless, yet work to separate volunteers by grade in both status
and tasking.

You can't have it both ways, and the math doesn't work in a volunteer paradigm,
especially one as focused on accouterments and uniforms, and worse,
NHQ either winds up cutting off otherwise qualified people from important jobs,
or will twist itself in knots trying to make the square peg fit into a round hole with threads.

NCOs can't be commanders, so we'll just change the name of the office(s)?

NO ONE cares if a qualified CAP NCO is appointed as a unit CC, but the optics are wrong
having officers salute and report to an NCO and you're never going to fix that, because
it doesn't work that way in organizations that actually have class-based grade system.

Those same organizations also have "up or out" with promotions, and expectations of
actual performance and responsibility commensurate with those promotions, and moving
between classes, in either direction is unusual on the whole, and no small undertaking.

If it's that big a deal, change the unit cc to a non-grade post (i.e. the member appointed
relinquishes his grade for the duration), then have officers who report to this director.
Lots of police departments have moved to this model.  "Sir" still works, but no salutes,
no uniform, and no problems related to NCO / Officer interaction because it doesn't exisit.

No grade, promotions, ES, or any non-unit functions during appointment.  Director focused PD only.
Do this for all levels.  The National CC is already the CEO, so it's partially done.

Thank would be "fun".
« Last Edit: September 09, 2018, 04:01:07 PM by Eclipse » Logged


TheSkyHornet
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Posts: 1,533

« Reply #27 on: September 09, 2018, 04:08:20 PM »

Your logic is both unwelcome and sound.

In which sense?

Those involved with the proliferation of the NCO program in CAP will at the same time
say that grade is meaningless, yet work to separate volunteers by grade in both status
and tasking.

You can't have it both ways, and the math doesn't work in a volunteer paradigm,
especially one as focused on accouterments and uniforms, and worse,
NHQ either winds up cutting off otherwise qualified people from important jobs,
or will twist itself in knots trying to make the square peg fit into a round hole with threads.

NCOs can't be commanders, so we'll just change the name of the office(s)?

Ah, okay. We're on the same page here entirely.

At the lower echelon level, the role of the NCO is pretty much a recruiting/retention tool via insignia.

NCOs in CAP undergo the exact same professional development training as officers, giving them the same education (with the exception of the prior basic military training that NCOs must have---from their military service up to at least the grade of E-4, in addition to whatever other education they may have received). So if an NCO takes SLS, TLC, and UCC, what makes them any less qualified to run a squadron than a 1st Lt or Captain?

"But NCOs aren't commanders; they're First Sergeants." Okay, but we don't have a First Sergeant training program in CAP outside of the Cadet Program. So we basically just don't want to call them commanders. And as you said, we call them directors.

In a structured environment where tasks can be dependent on grade, NCOs can absolutely have a place. But in the volunteer environment where we don't have tasks dependent on grade, does it really matter who does what based on rank? There are unit commanders who are 2d Lts that have Lt Cols who are their deputy commander. A TSgt can be CDC.

So unless the roles are designed with specific training elements, I don't know what the differences is aside from what people wear and what they're called.

There are a number of people who want to become an NCO because they hold a value to that from their military service. No issue with that. And there's a way to employ NCOs, especially with Cadet Programs, in a traditional NCO capacity. But when it comes to eServices duty assignments, there's not much of a difference there, if any.

I don't get what the prioritization/intent is in these regs with the NCO construct.
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Jester
Seasoned Member

Posts: 358

« Reply #28 on: September 09, 2018, 04:14:27 PM »

From what I’ve been told, the addition of NCO duty titles in eservices is “too hard/too much trouble for the IT people to do”.

And NCOs becoming commanders now will cross over to the appropriate officer grade for the duration of the assignment. The benefit of that for NCOs is it still counts as TIG for their NCO grade, so it doesn’t stop the clock on that progression while allowing them to command if necessary.
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TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,533

« Reply #29 on: September 09, 2018, 04:17:34 PM »

Just as a side note, there's apparently a Facebook discussion going around where people are insinuating that they cannot be instated as CAP NCOs as active duty E-4s. So I'm not sure where that gouge is stemming from, but it goes back to the NCO role being misunderstood from a regulatory standpoint.

If people took the time to read the regulation, they'd see in plain English how not complicated it is to be an NCO in CAP, all in initial appointment, progression, and duty assignment.


From what I’ve been told, the addition of NCO duty titles in eservices is “too hard/too much trouble for the IT people to do”.

Just like with matching the current officer duty titles in CAPR 20-1 to eServices, or those from the Cadet Programs regulations.
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: Interim Change Letter, CAPR 20-1
 


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