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CAP Talk  |  Cadet Programs  |  Cadet Programs Management & Activities  |  Topic: Cadet Ball
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,329

« Reply #40 on: August 07, 2018, 01:12:44 PM »

It also normalizes and is an affectation of binge drinking.

Punch = Binge drinking? LOL WUT?

No, the punch does not = binge drinking, the entire idea of the grog, in fact does.

It's a part of a bygone era that tests the "mettle" of the "men" in the unit, with the intention
to make them drink something that is both alcoholic and disgusting in an attempt to see
how many can "hack it" until someone is passed out drunk, technicolor yawns, or both.

That's the reason it exists.

Quoth the wiki:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dining_in
"At some mess nights, violators of the mess are obliged to publicly drink from a grog bowl in front of the mess attendees. The grog is sometimes contained in a toilet bowl, consisting of various alcoholic beverages mixed together. As a more disgusting effect, the grog may also contain floating solids, such as meatballs, raw oysters, or Tootsie Rolls. The tradition of drinking grog originated with the British Navy. Grog consisted of the regulation rum ration diluted with water to discourage binge drinking. In modern times, grog comes in two varieties: alcoholic and non-alcoholic, the latter of which may contain anything that will make it less appealing to the taste, including hot sauce. For additional effect, the drinker may be required to drink from a boot.

In addition to visiting the grog bowl and paying fines, violators may be sentenced to sing songs, tell jokes, do pushups, or perform menial tasks to entertain the mess. In most cases, when a violator has been identified, he or she is given the opportunity to provide a rebuttal or defense for the violation, which rarely results in the violator being excused for the offense, and usually only results in more punishment.

Traditionally, all fines collected throughout the night are split amongst the stewards that served the attendees as a token of appreciation for their efforts. The fines can also be used to pay for the drinks consumed, while some units have used the Mess Night as a fund raiser (often to pay for a ball).

Members of the mess may also be singled out for some good-natured ribbing and teasing. In some units, members go out of their way to be picked on, often wearing obvious uniform violations, such as crowns, tiaras, eye-patches, bowties and cummerbunds of the wrong color, and other items that have no place on any military uniform (although it is common for US Artillerymen to wear red socks, suspenders and even bowties, in a nod to tradition at the expense of uniform regulations). Some will attempt to leave sabotaging evidence on or around others they wish to see fined, so care must be taken to not be the butt of a joke.

Navy and Marine traditions also include that no diner may leave the hall to use the restroom without permission until Mr. Vice suggests that the company "shed a tear for Lord Admiral Nelson", a reference to the fact that his body was preserved in a barrel of brandy after his death at Trafalgar."


As mentioned it's all in the execution, and this is an organization which historically
takes things that should be a "4" and starts at 11.

There are pictures and stories all over the web about CAP grog bowls made of every condiment,
and anything else cadets could find in the place it was held.

https://fredericksburgcap.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=42&Itemid=154

https://www.afdw.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/335781/civil-air-patrol-and-afdw-work-in-concert-protecting-ncr/

So let's not pretend we don't know the history, tradition and reasons this exists at all.

And to the comments regarding this being "voluntary" - is it?  You're a cadet A1C who goes
to the wing conference and winds up at the banquet, you violate the mess and get told to go up,
you're going to say "no" and be called a (insert emasculating identifier of your choice here)?
Anyone who works with adolescents knows how the real world works.

NIN - your dining outs were in a different world both figuratively and literally, with an
entirely different mindset in CAP and the universe.  Better or worse?  Starbuck's by
me is open to midnight to discuss that, but there's no denying it.

I've been to them as well, and among like-minded adults with enough agency to tell people
to go an salute themselves if they don't want to play, they can be fun, but I've also been there when
a couple of people who are actually good at this start things off, and then lots of goofs
jump in and things get out of hand.

It's dumb, pushes a visceral button because CAP espouses one set of behaviors and
then walks them back when it's FUN! or EXPEDIENT!, and this doesn't belong in CAP.

Those who join the military will still get plenty of that, and those who don't have no use for it.

« Last Edit: August 07, 2018, 01:18:55 PM by Eclipse » Logged


MSG Mac
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« Reply #41 on: August 07, 2018, 02:24:41 PM »

I always point out Article III of the Serviceman's Code of Conduct".
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Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
Ned
Resident Philosopher

Posts: 2,204

« Reply #42 on: August 07, 2018, 02:47:39 PM »

My observations:

First -- in response to the OP --  the CAC should not be permitted to plan or implement activities, including cadet social activities.  From a organizational effectiveness perspective, it is hard to imagine a more poorly designed organization to accomplish such a task.  The Chair has no command and control over the members, and cannot hire, fire, reward, or punish the members.  Essentially by definition, the members do not live particularly close to each other which makes it that much harder to coordinate their party planning duties.  It simply turns into an exercise of frustration, which no advisor should permit.

But perhaps more importantly, the CAC already has a defined mission.  Time spent planning and implementing social or other activities is time that could and should be spent accomplishing their assigned mission.


If the a commander wants to task one or more cadets to perform a given task, normally he or she is absolutely free to do so,  But commanders (or designees) should not task the CAC to do it.

Second, I enjoy the social aspects of CAP.  While I certainly get my money's worth out of my mess dress, I have also eaten countless pizzas with fellow members, made and brought a lot of pot-luck dishes in informal situations, and even attended a number of cadet balls in my time.  I'm sure that I have shared before that I have made dozens of life-long close friendships in CAP that I value dearly.  There is nothing wrong with members -- including cadets - gathering at CAP-related social occasions, following our rules.  I'm sure I will meet socially with many of you in just a few weeks in Anaheim.

That said, I'm kinda with Bob on this one.  Dining ins are traditional formal military ceremonies that are not necessarily a good fit for cadets, even when modified to exclude alcohol.  I attended dozens of dining ins (and dining outs) as a soldier, including serving as Mr. Vice several times.  The "CAP versions" I have attended as a guest were not done particularly well.  It is my hope that no senior would permit any sort of noxious grog as a CPP issue, but I suppose a "simulated noxious grog"  (where Mr. Vice and minions appear to make a horrible drink, but through various sleights of hand the offending ingredients are not actually added to the punch) is not a violation per se.

But I find the whole notion of "forced drinking" to be distasteful, and as Bob points out it is rooted firmly in an alcoholic tradition that is inappropriate for cadets.  So although we do not have a specific rule that prohibits "grog" ceremonies, I would personally discourage it.

But, like NIN, my personal observations should not be taken as NHQ policy.  I am not a commander, nor a current member of the BoG.  Those folks set policy.  I am a mere staff guy and SME for CP.  NHQ speaks with one voice, expressed through regulations and other official doctrine.  Neither NiN nor I have any authority to set policy or approve regulations. 

Finally, my thoughts on "cadet balls."  Generally I approve of cadet social activities, including those held in conjunction with wing or cadet conferences.  Since they are official CAP activities, all CAP regulations and guidance apply, including things like mandatory senior supervision, fraternization rules, uniform regulations, etc..  There is certainly no regulation against music and (most forms of) dancing. which cadets seem to enjoy.  Where they sometimes go wrong is inadequate senior supervision or by requiring or encouraging female cadets to wear "party dresses" instead of their uniforms.  Which is improper, of course.


[edit - typos and sloppiness]
« Last Edit: August 07, 2018, 04:16:54 PM by Ned » Logged
Capmonkey
Forum Regular

Posts: 118

« Reply #43 on: August 07, 2018, 03:02:12 PM »

Thank you, sir! I understand all of your concerns, and will voice them to the DCP for my wing.
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etodd
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Posts: 1,323

« Reply #44 on: August 07, 2018, 04:54:21 PM »

"Over planning and over thinking" a Cadet dance can make it become like a high school Prom.  Where the kids go to have their photo made, grab a bite, maybe dance a couple songs .... and then its out the door to the 'real party' at someone's house where the fun begins.

Keep it simple, with proper "hall monitors" watching their every move, for the short time they are at the official function.  ;)

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OldGuy
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« Reply #45 on: August 07, 2018, 06:16:54 PM »

Mixed feelings. I have very, very fond memories of military balls in both CAP and JROTC, ditto the "Dining In" events, complete with fake grog. I am saddened that we live in such a risk-averse, ORM driven world that I probably would discourage my current units from having the truly innocent joy I got to experience as a teenager.

That said - social events are a big deal - our squadron picnic is upcoming and we will have well over 100 folks playing volley-ball, eating BBQ and having a grand time.
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Capmonkey
Forum Regular

Posts: 118

« Reply #46 on: August 07, 2018, 06:47:39 PM »

"Over planning and over thinking" a Cadet dance can make it become like a high school Prom.  Where the kids go to have their photo made, grab a bite, maybe dance a couple songs .... and then its out the door to the 'real party' at someone's house where the fun begins.

Keep it simple, with proper "hall monitors" watching their every move, for the short time they are at the official function.  ;)

I'll make sure to take this into account!
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etodd
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Posts: 1,323

« Reply #47 on: August 07, 2018, 10:38:33 PM »

Mixed feelings. I have very, very fond memories of military balls in both CAP and JROTC, ditto the "Dining In" events, complete with fake grog. I am saddened that we live in such a risk-averse, ORM driven world that I probably would discourage my current units from having the truly innocent joy I got to experience as a teenager.

That said - social events are a big deal - our squadron picnic is upcoming and we will have well over 100 folks playing volley-ball, eating BBQ and having a grand time.

There you go. Just this past weekend one of our senior members invited the whole Squadron to his lake house for a cookout, boat rides, jet skis and swimming. It’s a yearly event that the Cadets look forward to.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #48 on: August 07, 2018, 10:55:05 PM »

^^^ With the full review and approval that an HAA like that requires I'm sure.
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OldGuy
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« Reply #49 on: August 08, 2018, 12:01:26 AM »

Mixed feelings. I have very, very fond memories of military balls in both CAP and JROTC, ditto the "Dining In" events, complete with fake grog. I am saddened that we live in such a risk-averse, ORM driven world that I probably would discourage my current units from having the truly innocent joy I got to experience as a teenager.

That said - social events are a big deal - our squadron picnic is upcoming and we will have well over 100 folks playing volley-ball, eating BBQ and having a grand time.

There you go. Just this past weekend one of our senior members invited the whole Squadron to his lake house for a cookout, boat rides, jet skis and swimming. It’s a yearly event that the Cadets look forward to.
Very cool!
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Spaceman3750
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Posts: 2,660

« Reply #50 on: August 08, 2018, 12:28:56 AM »

^^^ With the full review and approval that an HAA like that requires I'm sure.

And here I thought I was the only one whose use of cooking equipment qualifies as “high adventure”.


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I can't fix all of CAP's problems, but I can lead from the bottom by building my squadron as a center of excellence to serve as an example of what every unit can be.
NIN
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« Reply #51 on: August 08, 2018, 06:43:20 AM »

^^^ With the full review and approval that an HAA like that requires I'm sure.
Pretty bad when an afternoon cookout and swimming at the lake is considered "high adventure".



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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2018 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
OldGuy
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Posts: 504
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #52 on: August 08, 2018, 09:56:10 AM »

^^^ With the full review and approval that an HAA like that requires I'm sure.
Pretty bad when an afternoon cookout and swimming at the lake is considered "high adventure".



Sent from my SM-T550 using Tapatalk
I am saddened that we live in such a risk-averse, ORM driven world...

(Maybe that was sarcasm? Hard to tell here.)
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,329

« Reply #53 on: August 08, 2018, 10:04:20 AM »

^^^ With the full review and approval that an HAA like that requires I'm sure.
Pretty bad when an afternoon cookout and swimming at the lake is considered "high adventure".

So...members can't operate a golf cart at any activity below Wing level, but jet skis are "fine"?
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etodd
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Posts: 1,323

« Reply #54 on: August 08, 2018, 11:32:41 AM »

^^^ With the full review and approval that an HAA like that requires I'm sure.
Pretty bad when an afternoon cookout and swimming at the lake is considered "high adventure".

So...members can't operate a golf cart at any activity below Wing level, but jet skis are "fine"?

Good grief.  This was NOT an official CAP event.  Just a guy inviting friends over for a summer cookout and lake party. There were people other than CAP there as well.

Some of you folks must never have any fun. 
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #55 on: August 08, 2018, 11:57:59 AM »

^^^ With the full review and approval that an HAA like that requires I'm sure.
Pretty bad when an afternoon cookout and swimming at the lake is considered "high adventure".

So...members can't operate a golf cart at any activity below Wing level, but jet skis are "fine"?

I can see constituting jet skis as an HAA. But maybe the discussion should be "why are golf carts restricted to wing+ events" rather than comparing them to jet skis.


That said, I don't think the OP was asking about social events that can be hosted as a 'non-CAP event.'
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,329

« Reply #56 on: August 08, 2018, 12:05:13 PM »

^^^ With the full review and approval that an HAA like that requires I'm sure.
Pretty bad when an afternoon cookout and swimming at the lake is considered "high adventure".

So...members can't operate a golf cart at any activity below Wing level, but jet skis are "fine"?

Good grief.  This was NOT an official CAP event.  Just a guy inviting friends over for a summer cookout and lake party. There were people other than CAP there as well.

Some of you folks must never have any fun.

Or we own houses we would like to keep.

That's not how CAP, or liability insurance works.

I can see constituting jet skis as an HAA. But maybe the discussion should be "why are golf carts restricted to wing+ events" rather than comparing them to jet skis.

As usual due to cadet who was seriously injured while driving one during a period of what was apparently poor
adult supervision.
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NIN
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« Reply #57 on: August 08, 2018, 03:16:23 PM »

So...members can't operate a golf cart at any activity below Wing level, but jet skis are "fine"?

Never said that.

My former DCC used to have the sq to his house for a cookout and to go out on the boat around the lake.

The boat wasn't like a jet boat or anything, just a 20ft runabout or something. You could probably tow a tube on it, but we never did.  It was pretty laid back.

However, where is the line at the point where I have to apply for HAA approval for my picnic due to "watercraft operations", or "riverine ops" for the canoe trip?

Scouting defines "high adventure activities" to include things like "backpacking," "camping," "canoeing," "geocatching," "first aid," "fishing," "historical reenactment/living history," "leave no trace (?)," "orienteering,"  and "search & rescue" among other such activities as "caving," "rappelling," "extreme sports," "motorboating," "shooting sports," and "space exploration(!)".


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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2018 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,329

« Reply #58 on: August 08, 2018, 03:26:19 PM »

However, where is the line at the point where I have to apply for HAA approval for my picnic due to "watercraft operations", or "riverine ops" for the canoe trip?

I  dunno, but in this case he said there were jet skis, insinuating members used them.

A drowned member, even worse a cadet, or one who is in a wheelchair for life (or more likely
blows out a knee and a football schlaship) is certainly a risk, so I would say, if asked, any water-borne
activities outside a pool, probably could fall into HAA, at least from an ORM / CAP perspective.

And the "chill man, this is my property and there were non-members here" excuse doesn't fly,
CAP is clear many of its rules reach far into personal activities, and you think a lawyer would ignore
Uncle Sam's deep pockets when he finds out the only connection between the host and the participants was CAP?

Yeah, the world is run by lawyers, no one can play on the monkey bars anymore.  I get it.  Getting it doesn't
change it.
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TheSkyHornet
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Posts: 1,563

« Reply #59 on: August 08, 2018, 04:36:08 PM »

This is where you really need to distinguish people being invited to a social event, and people being invited to a CAP social event.

If we meet at our squadron HQ for a cookout, it's a CAP event.

"Hey, there's a group of us going to so-and-so's house on Saturday for a cookout; bring your folks/kids if you want" it's a private event, and we don't use our CAP emails to discuss it.

If we meet at someone's house and say "We're going to be doing schedule planning (or project planning for an upcoming activity), and we'll have a cookout after," that's a CAP event.

So you have to be really careful on how you communicate that sort of thing, including how you handle invites, and what it's intent is. We've had cadets at each other's houses doing fancy rifle drill (or even target shooting) wearing CAP shirts. They just organized that because they happened to go to the same school together. But it ends up on social media. "Hey, guys, I get that this is a private thing, but you can't be representing CAP when you're doing that. I get that it's just a shirt, but I don't want anyone getting the wrong impression here like this is some unsanctioned CAP activity."

So I totally get the liability standpoint.

Things can be done as private events outside of CAP, but you need to watch how it's planned and portrayed.
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CAP Talk  |  Cadet Programs  |  Cadet Programs Management & Activities  |  Topic: Cadet Ball
 


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