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Capmonkey
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« on: August 06, 2018, 02:46:52 PM »

Hey, guys!
     My wing's conference is coming up soon (or at least the planning for it) and CAC has been asked to plan the Cadet Social. No big deal. We're thinking about holding a cadet ball, similar to a military ball. I was wondering if any of you have done this in the past, with what sucess you've had, tips, etc. My wing has never done one, but it has been proposed in the past. Any help would be appreciated.

Sincerely,
C/Maj Capmonkey
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Eclipse
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« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2018, 03:28:10 PM »

tips, etc.

Don't.
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Capmonkey
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« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2018, 03:37:58 PM »

Is there any particular reason, sir? Trust me, I value your opinion greatly, I'm just curious, as I've heard of other wings doing this sort of thing. Any tips for a cadet social in general would be appreciated.

C/Maj Capmonkey
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2018, 03:40:37 PM »

tips, etc.

Don't.

Agreed. It's always far less exciting than planned.

Most Wings have conference during which have an awards banquet, or these may be things done in addition to a conference (such as a scheduled awards ceremony, and only that).

Dress-up events are, typically, planned with a series of speeches, special presentation/award, and guest speaker. And in most cases, the larger the event, the more people you don't know. 'Combat' dining ins can be more fun for cadets, but at the same time, you have that "I don't know you" factor.

Now, if you do intend to go with the ball idea, you'll need to have sign-ups so you can figure out food and seating accommodations. And, given the time of the event, considerations to overnight billeting.

I have just found in my experiences that formal affairs have a relatively low cadet turnout.
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Capmonkey
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« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2018, 03:46:32 PM »

Thanks for the advice. This idea came from some of the wing higher-ups, and I'd like to make it happen. Our conference has an awards banquet already, we were just looking for different ideas for the Cadet Social. As for the larger events, I personally like the idea of "not knowing people", because it forces you to engage with your peers. Planning hasn't yet started for the Conference and the Cadet Social, I was just trying to gather some ideas. Please don't take this as me getting into an argument with either of you. Just trying to be a respectful cadet.


C/Maj Capmonkey
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2018, 03:49:41 PM »

Thanks for the advice. This idea came from some of the wing higher-ups, and I'd like to make it happen. Our conference has an awards banquet already, we were just looking for different ideas for the Cadet Social. As for the larger events, I personally like the idea of "not knowing people", because it forces you to engage with your peers. Planning hasn't yet started for the Conference and the Cadet Social, I was just trying to gather some ideas. Please don't take this as me getting into an argument with either of you. Just trying to be a respectful cadet.


C/Maj Capmonkey

Quote
I personally like the idea of "not knowing people", because it forces you to engage with your peers.

Or it results in people who don't know each other staring at one another all night and not enjoying themselves. Forcing friendships is not generally a good idea. Those things develop over time; they aren't forced.

Maybe try polling the cadets in your Wing to get ideas. Be cautious about telling others what will be fun when they haven't provided input. If Wing highers are pushing it, it's a sign that they think it would be fun and didn't talk to the lower echelons.

Quote
Just trying to be a respectful cadet.

No worries. I don't see it as an argument. It's a dialogue.
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Luis R. Ramos
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« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2018, 03:50:40 PM »

Did you try asking your Wing's CAC?
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Capmonkey
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« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2018, 03:54:34 PM »

I'm the incoming WCAC Chairman, sir. This idea is going to be proposed at the start of the new term. I'm just trying to get as much background information as possible.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2018, 04:08:16 PM »

Is there any particular reason, sir? Trust me, I value your opinion greatly, I'm just curious,

Expense.
Lack of interest.
General lack of cadet participation at Conferences.
Supervision issues
CAP is not a dating service.

Any tips for a cadet social in general would be appreciated.

Again, steer clear and find a more appropriate way to spend the evening that doesn't involve
uniforms a lot of cadets don't own, an expensive rubber chicken dinner, and awkward / unnecessary
peer pressure.

Consider who you are going to "social" with - these are cadets who are already at the
conference, so a party at the pool, or pizza and an appropriate movie in a conference
room would probably be more appreciated then a "ball, dance, or dining out".

ProTip - anything that includes the word "grog" is 100% inappropriate for CAP, especially for cadets.

as I've heard of other wings doing this sort of thing.

Wings do things that aren't a good idea all the time.

For every cadet "ball" or "social" that was a success, there's probably at least one that went sideways
in spectacular, unintended ways.

I'm 100% on the page that few cadets want to or should have their participation at
a wing conference "rewarded" with the snoozefest of the average Wing banquet -
inappropriate, unconnected speakers who don't know anything about CAP, and / or who were
culled at the last minute because they were handy to the local zip code, coupled with
3 hours of certificates for every Assistant to the Director of Assistant Directors, accompanied
by a meal which is generally legally classified as food for human consumption, but only with the
most benevolent eye.

But with that said, a separate cadet activity requires additional planning and supervision, with
most anyone interested in being at the Ramada Inn that day already committed to the conference as a whole,
resulting in inadequate or inappropriate supervision, which leads us back to Doh!
« Last Edit: August 06, 2018, 07:43:12 PM by Eclipse » Logged


NIN
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« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2018, 06:06:44 PM »

CAC doesn't stand for "Cadet Activities Committee."

That should cover that. More later
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Eclipse
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« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2018, 06:27:03 PM »

CAC doesn't stand for "Cadet Activities Committee."

+1 - don't understand why wings get this so wrong, so often.
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Capmonkey
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« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2018, 07:50:21 PM »

I understand this. In a respectful manner though, who better to plan a CADET social than a group of CADETS?
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NIN
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« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2018, 07:57:37 PM »

That's fine.  But that's not the mission or purpose of the CAC.

Who better to paint the side of a ship than a bunch of swabbies, right? Except when they're all SEALs.

CAC has a very specific mission and function in the hierarchy of CAP.

And when  the CAC veers off into activity planning, they're shortchanging the cadets of their unit from the representation that mission and function allows.  Robbing them of a long term "position of trust with the ear of the commander" for a night of bow ties or a weekend of boonie  hats.
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Luis R. Ramos
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« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2018, 08:00:08 PM »

Quote

CAC doesn't stand for "Cadet Activities Committee."

Why the reminder? Don't you think that those here would not know??? Is it wrong for anyone to consult cadets on any type of activity?




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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2018, 08:39:06 PM »

Quote

CAC doesn't stand for "Cadet Activities Committee."

Why the reminder? Don't you think that those here would not know??? Is it wrong for anyone to consult cadets on any type of activity?

It's not wrong to consult cadets on an activity.

It's wrong to take a cadet in a duty position that isn't there to plan out activities and expect them to plan out activities. That's not part of the assignment.

That's like taking a college intern and making them sort files and keep the coffee pots filled. That's not what they're there for.
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Capmonkey
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« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2018, 10:05:09 PM »

Yes, it's not a duty assignment of the CAC. However, would you have Senior Members plan a cadet social? In this case, maybe so. However, we as CAC are an advisory board. We can plan the Social and suggest and ADVISE to the Senior members, in the form of the CAC Advisor and DCP, of what CADETS want, since it is a CADET social, not a senior. If you want to plan a CADET social, have cadets plan it.


C/Maj Capmonkey
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etodd
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« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2018, 10:12:00 PM »

Our Wing Conference always has a "dance" with a live band after the formal dinner and presentations. But its everyone, Cadets and Seniors combined. Which usually means that most Cadets who attend, have senior member parents attending, and staying at the hotel/conference center.


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lordmonar
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« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2018, 02:39:21 AM »

I understand this. In a respectful manner though, who better to plan a CADET social than a group of CADETS?
I don't know....maybe people who know how to plan a social in the first place.   Someone who knows about booking a venue, arranging catering, booking a speaker, DJ/band, etc etc etal.

Sorry to rain on your parade....but NHQ CP has been trying for years and years to break the idea that CAC is supposed to plan and execute Cadet Activities.   It's not.  That is in fact the job of the wing's Director of Cadet Programs and his/her staff....which may include senior cadets by they way.   

You are correct.   Having cadets HELP plan the Cadet Social Activity is a good idea.   Tasking the Cadet Advisory Council is not.   Just like have Ground Team Leaders HELP plan the wing wide SAREX is a good idea.....have Ground TEAM One plan it is not.    The CAC is supposed to do one job and planning social events is not it.

Having said that.

Here is the link to the USAF guidance on dining outs......should give you some ideas of how big of a project this is going to be.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjh15_ZqdrcAhVHilQKHZGIDbAQFjAFegQIBRAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.e-publishing.af.mil%2Fproduction%2F1%2Faf_sg%2Fpublication%2Fafi41-210%2Fafi41-210.pdf&usg=AOvVaw3mjP1QzYvYrtoZAlqnbjcZ

Good luck.

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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
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« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2018, 08:57:31 AM »

Earlier I said "More later."  It is now later.

I get when people say "We're not the military, we don't need dining outs." I don't agree with it, but I get it.

I sort of "grew up" on "dining outs" in Michigan Wing in the 1980s.  Every conference had one. Every one. Wing Conferences or Cadet Conferences, we had a dining out (well, the Cadet Conference's dining out was styled as a "Military Ball" every year. A little different. "Nerd Prom," if you will).

And yes, they were complete with a grog bowl. (and no, the grog was not disgusting or nasty, it was just punch. For your transgressions of the mess rules, two fingers of grog sir!)

The dining outs did tend to be a little long, but the thing about the dining out was: it wasn't the "same old same old" banquet with rubber chicken and a succession of guest speakers who each talk 20 minutes longer than he should. 

There were rules of the mess and they were different from the everyday rules of eating which made it "something out of the ordinary."  (which, when you think of it, is what CAP is: something out of the ordinary)   Colonel Sheibels would sing for his dinner, a MI/Great Lakes tradition, and we *always* had a great time. ALWAYS.  Lots of laughter, lots of fun, good shenanigans and stories.  I looked forward to dining outs as a cadet.  I think many of us took it as "Why have a 'mess dress'-type uniform if you're not going to have a 'mess,' right?"

So, you can put me down in the "dining out" column rather than "banquet" column.



True story: (you knew a WIWAC story was coming)

Wing Conference, I think circa 1985, Lansing, Michigan. My squadron commander and mentor Maj Ron Padavan is Mr. Vice, and his brother-in-law Lt Col Glenn Overby is the President of the Mess. The Lieutenant Governor of Michigan, Martha Griffiths, is our guest speaker.

Ron gets nabbed for a violation of the mess rules or protocol or something, and the President suggests that he should atone for it with a trip to the grog bowl.  Rather than leaving his post unmanned, he appoints this rather erstwhile Cadet Major named Ninness as "Vice President Pro-Tem of the Mess." 

I scoot up to Mr Vice's chair as a point of order is made. I recognize the speaker and he proceeds to note that the President of the Mess himself violated the rules, which the President immediately owns up to. Rather than leaving his post similarly unmanned, Lt Col Overby appoints me as the "President Pro-Tem of the Mess" during his absence. Knowing that protocol is protocol, I appoint my buddy, C/Capt Jake Naeyert, as the "Vice President Pro-Tem, Pro-Tem of the Mess" (to much laughter and spoon tapping by the cadets present) and abscond to the dais to assume my temporary temporary office whilst the President and Vice are engaged. 

(Note: This all went much quicker than I'm describing it, and we were really thinking on our feet here.) 

I get up there behind the podium, and man, there's like 300+ people in this room, bright lights, the Lieutenant Governor is to my right, and everybody is looking right at me! (I was not nearly so comfortable in front of groups then as I am now)

Quite frankly, I'm a little stunned that I'm up in front of everybody. I'm thinking "OK, Ninness, just keep it together for another minute or two until the President and Vice get back to their posts and you can sit down and get out of the spotlight.. just keep breathing..." when one of our RAP Officers, a USAFR Lt Col sitting at one of the front tables, leaps to his feet and shouts "MR PRESIDENT! A POINT OF ORDER!"

(that's not how its done: a point of order in the mess is made to Mr. Vice, never directly to the President of the Mess. Its right there in the rules!)
 
I'm like a deer in the headlights: Oh, crap. Now what do I do?

I peer over at Jake who is looking at me like "Handle it, buddy, you're the boss." I look over at the Lt Governor and she looks at me and mouths the words "Nail him!"

"Ah, sir, its against the rules to address the President directly to make a point of order.  Would you please avail yourself of the Bowl of Social Grace, sir?"

Every cadet in the place I swear started cheering (well, OK, 33 years later thats the way I picture it. Let a dude dream a little, OK?) and tapping their spoons on the table as this Lt Col realizes his mistake and cheerfully makes for the back of the room to serve his penance.

The Lt Governor patted my arm and said "Nice work!"

The President and Vice very quickly thereafter resumed their roles and the dinner continued, but man, that was a fun time.



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Paul Creed III
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« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2018, 09:20:58 AM »


ProTip - anything that includes the word "grog" is 100% inappropriate for CAP, especially for cadets.


This +1. In my book, this is hazing plain and simple. Making a cadet (or a senior member for that matter) drink some disgusting concoction for some "infraction" deemed by others, all in the name of "fun", is hazing. Even if it appears that the person is going along with it, it is peer pressure for something that serves no purpose in a youth organization at all.
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Lt Col Paul Creed III, CAP
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Eclipse
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« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2018, 09:24:17 AM »

...that was a fun time.

It always is, until someone loses an eye...


ProTip - anything that includes the word "grog" is 100% inappropriate for CAP, especially for cadets.


This +1. In my book, this is hazing plain and simple. Making a cadet (or a senior member for that matter) drink some disgusting concoction for some "infraction" deemed by others, all in the name of "fun", is hazing. Even if it appears that the person is going along with it, it is peer pressure for something that serves no purpose in a youth organization at all.

It also normalizes and is an affectation of binge drinking.

#getoffmylawn
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Capmonkey
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« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2018, 09:31:04 AM »

Thank y'all for all of the advice, and stories... and I understand the function of CAC as us not being a Activities Committee, but this isn't just our wing. If y'all have a problem with it, it may not be just my wing. Either way, the CAC for our Wing, whether you like it or not, will most likely advise/suggest, otherwise plan the social with the help of Seniors (since cadets are apparently incapable of planning a social by themselves...) At the end of the day, the CAC will do whatever the DCP tells us to do. End of story.

C/Lt. Col Capmokey
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GroundHawg
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« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2018, 09:33:40 AM »

I learned to do the Electric Slide and The Hustle at Wing Conference. I still think of Capt. Holbrook (a state trooper at the time) and laugh at every wedding I go to.

Every female wore a formal dress (mostly their prom dress 2.0) every male broke out their bow ties.

We learned formal dining protocol, which for most of us was a first.

Nerd Prom is about the best description of it that I have ever heard.

Every year when the pictures from it hit our local papers, we would have 20+ new cadet recruits show up the next meeting.

It really is fun if planned and run properly.
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Capmonkey
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« Reply #23 on: August 07, 2018, 09:34:46 AM »

My point exactly!
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chuckmilam
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« Reply #24 on: August 07, 2018, 10:09:51 AM »

WIWAC in WIWG, the Cadet Military Ball was always a fun time and we looked forward to it every year. 

I believe WIWG still successfully puts it on, and so far, no one has lost an eye, as far as I know. 
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Capmonkey
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« Reply #25 on: August 07, 2018, 10:12:32 AM »

It looks like the opinion is leading 50/50...
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #26 on: August 07, 2018, 10:41:29 AM »

Arizona, Iowa, Kansas,  Ohio, Wisconsin, and Tri-Wing have all held Dining Ins at their Encampments which have included grog bowls.

CAPP 4 specifically talks about "wine pouring," which can be substituted with non-alcoholic beverages for cadet activities, and toasting as a function of virtually any Dining In/Out (which could also be perceived as a subjective reference to alcohol consumption). How far does that get taken?

I can see the argument for "humiliating" someone who doesn't wish to participate. And that's something to address, I suppose. But I think it's a stretch to say it's humiliating to voluntarily attend an activity that has a decorum with "rule breaking" protocols if they play along.

Our Wing DCP and I had a good chat about this very subject several months back. I'd like to know what National thinks on the subject. But it looks like NHQ Recruiting and Retention is comfortable with it, granted some level of control over the event exists.

There's been some suggestions thrown around before about making a more structured Dining In pamphlet for units to follow and appropriately execute a Dining In to avoid any controversial conduct.
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Capmonkey
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« Reply #27 on: August 07, 2018, 10:47:52 AM »

I can understand that, however, this isn't a dining in, in any sorts. That is saved for the award banquet. This "Cadet Ball" (which seems to be highly controversial), would not include "grog drinks", I mean really?! There would be cadet friendly drinks, for crying out loud, guys, with no toasting. Leave the dining-in for the awards banquet.
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jeders
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« Reply #28 on: August 07, 2018, 11:04:14 AM »

Let me start by saying that having CAC plan this is wrong and it should be bounced back to the conference planning committee; why has already been touched on enough, so moving on.

Having a cadet dance/ball/party at wing conference is a potentially great/terrible idea, it all comes down to execution. The way that it is done in TXWG is that on Friday night, during or right after the wing CC's reception, we hold a cadet ball with music, dancing, food, and cake. The dance is held in the same hotel as the conference (so that handles billeting and venue) and the food is generally provided by the hotel as they are also catering the reception and the awards dinner the following night. Males generally dress in semi-formal uniforms or nice civilian attire while females generally wear a nice dress. There is always senior member supervision (usually at the door to keep anyone from crashing the party), and half way through the night much of the wing CP staff will be joining in on the electric slide or singing "You've Lost that Loving Feeling".

As for the "not knowing people", isn't that kind of the point of a social event, to get to know people outside of your circle. Personally, I'm always amazed at how well cadets know each other, even in a state the size of Texas.
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etodd
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« Reply #29 on: August 07, 2018, 11:08:12 AM »


As for the "not knowing people", isn't that kind of the point of a social event, to get to know people outside of your circle. Personally, I'm always amazed at how well cadets know each other, even in a state the size of Texas.

Facebook and other social media connections. So many will friend Cadets in other squadrons and Cadets they meet at SAREXs and Encampments. They keep up with each other much more so than us Seniors. They have their own social world happening outside of CAP official meetings.
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chuckmilam
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« Reply #30 on: August 07, 2018, 11:10:54 AM »

Facebook and other social media connections. So many will friend Cadets in other squadrons and Cadets they meet at SAREXs and Encampments. They keep up with each other much more so than us Seniors.

Social media has been great for reconnecting and keeping in touch with friends I made at encampments almost 30 (yikes!) years ago.  It's one of the main reasons I keep my accounts open despite the otherwise overwhelming toxic political infighting over the last few years. 
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NIN
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« Reply #31 on: August 07, 2018, 11:14:02 AM »

It also normalizes and is an affectation of binge drinking.

Punch = Binge drinking? LOL WUT?



You must love those boring rubber chicken "banquets."

Do you need nasty, disgusting grog? No. Absolutely not.  Thats actually quite silly. I've never been a fan. A punch bowl of "grog" thats nothing but punch for infractions? Sure. Done right (and thats a hard part, doing it right and not doing it stupid) its a fun way to enforce the "mess rules".

I went to RSC in 2003 and was appointed as the president of the mess with another guy from my seminar as the vice. The other seminar told the commandant that they weren't going to participate in the dining out because they "didn't want to be made fun of" by our seminar. (again, "wut?" No idea why they thought they were going to be made fun of. They could never explain why they thought that, but thats what they had made up in their heads)

The vice and I sat down with them and assured them that we're not making "fun" of anybody, but there are traditional rules to the mess and things that happen for transgressions to the rules. Its not intended as punitive, its intended in the spirit of camaraderie and fun and fellowship as members of the group. The whole group.

They reluctantly agreed to participate. 15 years later, I'm still kind of shaking my head as to why as a group they were so resistant. It was a very odd conversation to have with a bunch of adults, to be honest. My cadet programs background served me in good stead that day.

The dining out went off without a hitch, the first couple "violators of the mess rules" were from my seminar, so they could see how it was done. (yes, I deliberately had one of my seminar mates break the rules first) The other seminar had a couple of "rule breakers" and the night wound up being a lot of fun. They all came to me and the vice afterwards and apologized for being so resistant and thanked us for allaying their fears and making the evening a LOT more fun than they thought it would be.

Should you have a dining out in every instance? Maybe not. But I've seen it done to great effect at wing & region conferences, and I've even run a couple at my squadron to the point where my squadron's dining out became a defacto "Wing" dining out. :) (benefits of a small wing)

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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
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« Reply #32 on: August 07, 2018, 11:18:17 AM »

Our Wing DCP and I had a good chat about this very subject several months back. I'd like to know what National thinks on the subject. But it looks like NHQ Recruiting and Retention is comfortable with it, granted some level of control over the event exists.

Whoa buddy. Slow your roll.  I speak for myself there, not as a representative of NHQ or CAP, Inc. :)

Me saying "I like dining outs" != "Its cool, National is OK with dining outs. Ninness said so!"

Unless I say otherwise, I'm speaking strictly for myself on CAP-Talk and not specifically representing a policy position of National HQ.

Just want to be completely clear there.
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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
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Capmonkey
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« Reply #33 on: August 07, 2018, 11:20:44 AM »

Let me start by saying that having CAC plan this is wrong and it should be bounced back to the conference planning committee; why has already been touched on enough, so moving on.

Having a cadet dance/ball/party at wing conference is a potentially great/terrible idea, it all comes down to execution. The way that it is done in TXWG is that on Friday night, during or right after the wing CC's reception, we hold a cadet ball with music, dancing, food, and cake. The dance is held in the same hotel as the conference (so that handles billeting and venue) and the food is generally provided by the hotel as they are also catering the reception and the awards dinner the following night. Males generally dress in semi-formal uniforms or nice civilian attire while females generally wear a nice dress. There is always senior member supervision (usually at the door to keep anyone from crashing the party), and half way through the night much of the wing CP staff will be joining in on the electric slide or singing "You've Lost that Loving Feeling".

As for the "not knowing people", isn't that kind of the point of a social event, to get to know people outside of your circle. Personally, I'm always amazed at how well cadets know each other, even in a state the size of Texas.


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Capmonkey
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« Reply #34 on: August 07, 2018, 11:21:38 AM »

Let me start by saying that having CAC plan this is wrong and it should be bounced back to the conference planning committee; why has already been touched on enough, so moving on.

Having a cadet dance/ball/party at wing conference is a potentially great/terrible idea, it all comes down to execution. The way that it is done in TXWG is that on Friday night, during or right after the wing CC's reception, we hold a cadet ball with music, dancing, food, and cake. The dance is held in the same hotel as the conference (so that handles billeting and venue) and the food is generally provided by the hotel as they are also catering the reception and the awards dinner the following night. Males generally dress in semi-formal uniforms or nice civilian attire while females generally wear a nice dress. There is always senior member supervision (usually at the door to keep anyone from crashing the party), and half way through the night much of the wing CP staff will be joining in on the electric slide or singing "You've Lost that Loving Feeling".

As for the "not knowing people", isn't that kind of the point of a social event, to get to know people outside of your circle. Personally, I'm always amazed at how well cadets know each other, even in a state the size of Texas.

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Capmonkey
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« Reply #35 on: August 07, 2018, 11:23:03 AM »

This is my exact intentions, to the tee. My wing has the conference the exact same way yours does, and the planning seems to be the same. It may not be completely right that CAC is planning the social, and maybe I'll be able to change it in the next term as Chairman, but for now, life must go on. Thank you for the great advice, sir. I know a lot of people in Texas Wing with extensive planning of these types of events, and will get advice from people who have been there and done it, on a cadet level. Once again, thanks
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #36 on: August 07, 2018, 11:34:22 AM »

Our Wing DCP and I had a good chat about this very subject several months back. I'd like to know what National thinks on the subject. But it looks like NHQ Recruiting and Retention is comfortable with it, granted some level of control over the event exists.

Whoa buddy. Slow your roll.  I speak for myself there, not as a representative of NHQ or CAP, Inc. :)

Me saying "I like dining outs" != "Its cool, National is OK with dining outs. Ninness said so!"

Unless I say otherwise, I'm speaking strictly for myself on CAP-Talk and not specifically representing a policy position of National HQ.

Just want to be completely clear there.

Noted entirely. But that does have influence in overall decision making and program suggestions. If NHQ was to ask you for your input, it carries weight.

Zero intention on citing you as the end-all. So excuse any misunderstanding on that.

This is my exact intentions, to the tee. My wing has the conference the exact same way yours does, and the planning seems to be the same. It may not be completely right that CAC is planning the social, and maybe I'll be able to change it in the next term as Chairman, but for now, life must go on. Thank you for the great advice, sir. I know a lot of people in Texas Wing with extensive planning of these types of events, and will get advice from people who have been there and done it, on a cadet level. Once again, thanks

You can also propose the idea of a planning committee to your Wing DCP. As a CAC adviser, that, too, carries weight.

Just be cautious on turning a CAC into an activities committee, whether asked by your Wing or not. CAC is not there as an extension of the Wing DCP to "run cadet activities" hosted at the Wing level. In most cases, there are Planning Officers ("Activities Directors") assigned by Wing to select an activities staff to host the activity.

However it plays out, I hope it goes well. If mil-ball seems like a positive idea, go for it. You might consider making it a dual senior-cadet ball, where seniors are mostly in their own conference room/ballroom with cadets (supervised, of course) in a neighboring/nearby ballroom. It has to have some senior oversight, but avoid throwing cadets and seniors into the same ball together if it's a 'cadet social.'
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Capmonkey
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« Reply #37 on: August 07, 2018, 11:41:10 AM »

Absolutely, sir! I completely agree, and will keep this all in mind. I apologize for this "blowing up", and will take everything into account. I sincerely appreciate it.

C/Maj Capmonkey
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #38 on: August 07, 2018, 11:53:08 AM »

Stop apologizing! It's a web forum dialogue!  8)

This is how you communicate information and ideas.
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Capmonkey
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« Reply #39 on: August 07, 2018, 11:56:15 AM »

Understood. Thanks again!
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Eclipse
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« Reply #40 on: August 07, 2018, 01:12:44 PM »

It also normalizes and is an affectation of binge drinking.

Punch = Binge drinking? LOL WUT?

No, the punch does not = binge drinking, the entire idea of the grog, in fact does.

It's a part of a bygone era that tests the "mettle" of the "men" in the unit, with the intention
to make them drink something that is both alcoholic and disgusting in an attempt to see
how many can "hack it" until someone is passed out drunk, technicolor yawns, or both.

That's the reason it exists.

Quoth the wiki:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dining_in
"At some mess nights, violators of the mess are obliged to publicly drink from a grog bowl in front of the mess attendees. The grog is sometimes contained in a toilet bowl, consisting of various alcoholic beverages mixed together. As a more disgusting effect, the grog may also contain floating solids, such as meatballs, raw oysters, or Tootsie Rolls. The tradition of drinking grog originated with the British Navy. Grog consisted of the regulation rum ration diluted with water to discourage binge drinking. In modern times, grog comes in two varieties: alcoholic and non-alcoholic, the latter of which may contain anything that will make it less appealing to the taste, including hot sauce. For additional effect, the drinker may be required to drink from a boot.

In addition to visiting the grog bowl and paying fines, violators may be sentenced to sing songs, tell jokes, do pushups, or perform menial tasks to entertain the mess. In most cases, when a violator has been identified, he or she is given the opportunity to provide a rebuttal or defense for the violation, which rarely results in the violator being excused for the offense, and usually only results in more punishment.

Traditionally, all fines collected throughout the night are split amongst the stewards that served the attendees as a token of appreciation for their efforts. The fines can also be used to pay for the drinks consumed, while some units have used the Mess Night as a fund raiser (often to pay for a ball).

Members of the mess may also be singled out for some good-natured ribbing and teasing. In some units, members go out of their way to be picked on, often wearing obvious uniform violations, such as crowns, tiaras, eye-patches, bowties and cummerbunds of the wrong color, and other items that have no place on any military uniform (although it is common for US Artillerymen to wear red socks, suspenders and even bowties, in a nod to tradition at the expense of uniform regulations). Some will attempt to leave sabotaging evidence on or around others they wish to see fined, so care must be taken to not be the butt of a joke.

Navy and Marine traditions also include that no diner may leave the hall to use the restroom without permission until Mr. Vice suggests that the company "shed a tear for Lord Admiral Nelson", a reference to the fact that his body was preserved in a barrel of brandy after his death at Trafalgar."


As mentioned it's all in the execution, and this is an organization which historically
takes things that should be a "4" and starts at 11.

There are pictures and stories all over the web about CAP grog bowls made of every condiment,
and anything else cadets could find in the place it was held.

https://fredericksburgcap.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=42&Itemid=154

https://www.afdw.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/335781/civil-air-patrol-and-afdw-work-in-concert-protecting-ncr/

So let's not pretend we don't know the history, tradition and reasons this exists at all.

And to the comments regarding this being "voluntary" - is it?  You're a cadet A1C who goes
to the wing conference and winds up at the banquet, you violate the mess and get told to go up,
you're going to say "no" and be called a (insert emasculating identifier of your choice here)?
Anyone who works with adolescents knows how the real world works.

NIN - your dining outs were in a different world both figuratively and literally, with an
entirely different mindset in CAP and the universe.  Better or worse?  Starbuck's by
me is open to midnight to discuss that, but there's no denying it.

I've been to them as well, and among like-minded adults with enough agency to tell people
to go an salute themselves if they don't want to play, they can be fun, but I've also been there when
a couple of people who are actually good at this start things off, and then lots of goofs
jump in and things get out of hand.

It's dumb, pushes a visceral button because CAP espouses one set of behaviors and
then walks them back when it's FUN! or EXPEDIENT!, and this doesn't belong in CAP.

Those who join the military will still get plenty of that, and those who don't have no use for it.

« Last Edit: August 07, 2018, 01:18:55 PM by Eclipse » Logged


MSG Mac
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« Reply #41 on: August 07, 2018, 02:24:41 PM »

I always point out Article III of the Serviceman's Code of Conduct".
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Michael P. McEleney
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Ned
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« Reply #42 on: August 07, 2018, 02:47:39 PM »

My observations:

First -- in response to the OP --  the CAC should not be permitted to plan or implement activities, including cadet social activities.  From a organizational effectiveness perspective, it is hard to imagine a more poorly designed organization to accomplish such a task.  The Chair has no command and control over the members, and cannot hire, fire, reward, or punish the members.  Essentially by definition, the members do not live particularly close to each other which makes it that much harder to coordinate their party planning duties.  It simply turns into an exercise of frustration, which no advisor should permit.

But perhaps more importantly, the CAC already has a defined mission.  Time spent planning and implementing social or other activities is time that could and should be spent accomplishing their assigned mission.


If the a commander wants to task one or more cadets to perform a given task, normally he or she is absolutely free to do so,  But commanders (or designees) should not task the CAC to do it.

Second, I enjoy the social aspects of CAP.  While I certainly get my money's worth out of my mess dress, I have also eaten countless pizzas with fellow members, made and brought a lot of pot-luck dishes in informal situations, and even attended a number of cadet balls in my time.  I'm sure that I have shared before that I have made dozens of life-long close friendships in CAP that I value dearly.  There is nothing wrong with members -- including cadets - gathering at CAP-related social occasions, following our rules.  I'm sure I will meet socially with many of you in just a few weeks in Anaheim.

That said, I'm kinda with Bob on this one.  Dining ins are traditional formal military ceremonies that are not necessarily a good fit for cadets, even when modified to exclude alcohol.  I attended dozens of dining ins (and dining outs) as a soldier, including serving as Mr. Vice several times.  The "CAP versions" I have attended as a guest were not done particularly well.  It is my hope that no senior would permit any sort of noxious grog as a CPP issue, but I suppose a "simulated noxious grog"  (where Mr. Vice and minions appear to make a horrible drink, but through various sleights of hand the offending ingredients are not actually added to the punch) is not a violation per se.

But I find the whole notion of "forced drinking" to be distasteful, and as Bob points out it is rooted firmly in an alcoholic tradition that is inappropriate for cadets.  So although we do not have a specific rule that prohibits "grog" ceremonies, I would personally discourage it.

But, like NIN, my personal observations should not be taken as NHQ policy.  I am not a commander, nor a current member of the BoG.  Those folks set policy.  I am a mere staff guy and SME for CP.  NHQ speaks with one voice, expressed through regulations and other official doctrine.  Neither NiN nor I have any authority to set policy or approve regulations. 

Finally, my thoughts on "cadet balls."  Generally I approve of cadet social activities, including those held in conjunction with wing or cadet conferences.  Since they are official CAP activities, all CAP regulations and guidance apply, including things like mandatory senior supervision, fraternization rules, uniform regulations, etc..  There is certainly no regulation against music and (most forms of) dancing. which cadets seem to enjoy.  Where they sometimes go wrong is inadequate senior supervision or by requiring or encouraging female cadets to wear "party dresses" instead of their uniforms.  Which is improper, of course.


[edit - typos and sloppiness]
« Last Edit: August 07, 2018, 04:16:54 PM by Ned » Logged
Capmonkey
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« Reply #43 on: August 07, 2018, 03:02:12 PM »

Thank you, sir! I understand all of your concerns, and will voice them to the DCP for my wing.
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etodd
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« Reply #44 on: August 07, 2018, 04:54:21 PM »

"Over planning and over thinking" a Cadet dance can make it become like a high school Prom.  Where the kids go to have their photo made, grab a bite, maybe dance a couple songs .... and then its out the door to the 'real party' at someone's house where the fun begins.

Keep it simple, with proper "hall monitors" watching their every move, for the short time they are at the official function.  ;)

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OldGuy
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« Reply #45 on: August 07, 2018, 06:16:54 PM »

Mixed feelings. I have very, very fond memories of military balls in both CAP and JROTC, ditto the "Dining In" events, complete with fake grog. I am saddened that we live in such a risk-averse, ORM driven world that I probably would discourage my current units from having the truly innocent joy I got to experience as a teenager.

That said - social events are a big deal - our squadron picnic is upcoming and we will have well over 100 folks playing volley-ball, eating BBQ and having a grand time.
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Capmonkey
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« Reply #46 on: August 07, 2018, 06:47:39 PM »

"Over planning and over thinking" a Cadet dance can make it become like a high school Prom.  Where the kids go to have their photo made, grab a bite, maybe dance a couple songs .... and then its out the door to the 'real party' at someone's house where the fun begins.

Keep it simple, with proper "hall monitors" watching their every move, for the short time they are at the official function.  ;)

I'll make sure to take this into account!
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etodd
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« Reply #47 on: August 07, 2018, 10:38:33 PM »

Mixed feelings. I have very, very fond memories of military balls in both CAP and JROTC, ditto the "Dining In" events, complete with fake grog. I am saddened that we live in such a risk-averse, ORM driven world that I probably would discourage my current units from having the truly innocent joy I got to experience as a teenager.

That said - social events are a big deal - our squadron picnic is upcoming and we will have well over 100 folks playing volley-ball, eating BBQ and having a grand time.

There you go. Just this past weekend one of our senior members invited the whole Squadron to his lake house for a cookout, boat rides, jet skis and swimming. It’s a yearly event that the Cadets look forward to.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #48 on: August 07, 2018, 10:55:05 PM »

^^^ With the full review and approval that an HAA like that requires I'm sure.
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OldGuy
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« Reply #49 on: August 08, 2018, 12:01:26 AM »

Mixed feelings. I have very, very fond memories of military balls in both CAP and JROTC, ditto the "Dining In" events, complete with fake grog. I am saddened that we live in such a risk-averse, ORM driven world that I probably would discourage my current units from having the truly innocent joy I got to experience as a teenager.

That said - social events are a big deal - our squadron picnic is upcoming and we will have well over 100 folks playing volley-ball, eating BBQ and having a grand time.

There you go. Just this past weekend one of our senior members invited the whole Squadron to his lake house for a cookout, boat rides, jet skis and swimming. It’s a yearly event that the Cadets look forward to.
Very cool!
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Spaceman3750
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« Reply #50 on: August 08, 2018, 12:28:56 AM »

^^^ With the full review and approval that an HAA like that requires I'm sure.

And here I thought I was the only one whose use of cooking equipment qualifies as “high adventure”.


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« Reply #51 on: August 08, 2018, 06:43:20 AM »

^^^ With the full review and approval that an HAA like that requires I'm sure.
Pretty bad when an afternoon cookout and swimming at the lake is considered "high adventure".



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OldGuy
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« Reply #52 on: August 08, 2018, 09:56:10 AM »

^^^ With the full review and approval that an HAA like that requires I'm sure.
Pretty bad when an afternoon cookout and swimming at the lake is considered "high adventure".



Sent from my SM-T550 using Tapatalk
I am saddened that we live in such a risk-averse, ORM driven world...

(Maybe that was sarcasm? Hard to tell here.)
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Eclipse
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« Reply #53 on: August 08, 2018, 10:04:20 AM »

^^^ With the full review and approval that an HAA like that requires I'm sure.
Pretty bad when an afternoon cookout and swimming at the lake is considered "high adventure".

So...members can't operate a golf cart at any activity below Wing level, but jet skis are "fine"?
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etodd
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« Reply #54 on: August 08, 2018, 11:32:41 AM »

^^^ With the full review and approval that an HAA like that requires I'm sure.
Pretty bad when an afternoon cookout and swimming at the lake is considered "high adventure".

So...members can't operate a golf cart at any activity below Wing level, but jet skis are "fine"?

Good grief.  This was NOT an official CAP event.  Just a guy inviting friends over for a summer cookout and lake party. There were people other than CAP there as well.

Some of you folks must never have any fun. 
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #55 on: August 08, 2018, 11:57:59 AM »

^^^ With the full review and approval that an HAA like that requires I'm sure.
Pretty bad when an afternoon cookout and swimming at the lake is considered "high adventure".

So...members can't operate a golf cart at any activity below Wing level, but jet skis are "fine"?

I can see constituting jet skis as an HAA. But maybe the discussion should be "why are golf carts restricted to wing+ events" rather than comparing them to jet skis.


That said, I don't think the OP was asking about social events that can be hosted as a 'non-CAP event.'
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Eclipse
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« Reply #56 on: August 08, 2018, 12:05:13 PM »

^^^ With the full review and approval that an HAA like that requires I'm sure.
Pretty bad when an afternoon cookout and swimming at the lake is considered "high adventure".

So...members can't operate a golf cart at any activity below Wing level, but jet skis are "fine"?

Good grief.  This was NOT an official CAP event.  Just a guy inviting friends over for a summer cookout and lake party. There were people other than CAP there as well.

Some of you folks must never have any fun.

Or we own houses we would like to keep.

That's not how CAP, or liability insurance works.

I can see constituting jet skis as an HAA. But maybe the discussion should be "why are golf carts restricted to wing+ events" rather than comparing them to jet skis.

As usual due to cadet who was seriously injured while driving one during a period of what was apparently poor
adult supervision.
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NIN
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« Reply #57 on: August 08, 2018, 03:16:23 PM »

So...members can't operate a golf cart at any activity below Wing level, but jet skis are "fine"?

Never said that.

My former DCC used to have the sq to his house for a cookout and to go out on the boat around the lake.

The boat wasn't like a jet boat or anything, just a 20ft runabout or something. You could probably tow a tube on it, but we never did.  It was pretty laid back.

However, where is the line at the point where I have to apply for HAA approval for my picnic due to "watercraft operations", or "riverine ops" for the canoe trip?

Scouting defines "high adventure activities" to include things like "backpacking," "camping," "canoeing," "geocatching," "first aid," "fishing," "historical reenactment/living history," "leave no trace (?)," "orienteering,"  and "search & rescue" among other such activities as "caving," "rappelling," "extreme sports," "motorboating," "shooting sports," and "space exploration(!)".


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Eclipse
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« Reply #58 on: August 08, 2018, 03:26:19 PM »

However, where is the line at the point where I have to apply for HAA approval for my picnic due to "watercraft operations", or "riverine ops" for the canoe trip?

I  dunno, but in this case he said there were jet skis, insinuating members used them.

A drowned member, even worse a cadet, or one who is in a wheelchair for life (or more likely
blows out a knee and a football schlaship) is certainly a risk, so I would say, if asked, any water-borne
activities outside a pool, probably could fall into HAA, at least from an ORM / CAP perspective.

And the "chill man, this is my property and there were non-members here" excuse doesn't fly,
CAP is clear many of its rules reach far into personal activities, and you think a lawyer would ignore
Uncle Sam's deep pockets when he finds out the only connection between the host and the participants was CAP?

Yeah, the world is run by lawyers, no one can play on the monkey bars anymore.  I get it.  Getting it doesn't
change it.
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #59 on: August 08, 2018, 04:36:08 PM »

This is where you really need to distinguish people being invited to a social event, and people being invited to a CAP social event.

If we meet at our squadron HQ for a cookout, it's a CAP event.

"Hey, there's a group of us going to so-and-so's house on Saturday for a cookout; bring your folks/kids if you want" it's a private event, and we don't use our CAP emails to discuss it.

If we meet at someone's house and say "We're going to be doing schedule planning (or project planning for an upcoming activity), and we'll have a cookout after," that's a CAP event.

So you have to be really careful on how you communicate that sort of thing, including how you handle invites, and what it's intent is. We've had cadets at each other's houses doing fancy rifle drill (or even target shooting) wearing CAP shirts. They just organized that because they happened to go to the same school together. But it ends up on social media. "Hey, guys, I get that this is a private thing, but you can't be representing CAP when you're doing that. I get that it's just a shirt, but I don't want anyone getting the wrong impression here like this is some unsanctioned CAP activity."

So I totally get the liability standpoint.

Things can be done as private events outside of CAP, but you need to watch how it's planned and portrayed.
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OldGuy
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« Reply #60 on: August 13, 2018, 05:17:35 PM »

BTW CAPP 3 includes a "Sample Dining In Agenda", so this appears to be a nationally sanctioned activity.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #61 on: August 13, 2018, 05:41:37 PM »

BTW CAPP 3 includes a "Sample Dining In Agenda", so this appears to be a nationally sanctioned activity.

Dining in?  Yes.

The grog nonsense?  No.

And considering that the document still contains the term "smoking lamp", not exactly the most
current in regards to social norms, despite its date.

Also this...
CAPP 3 Page 30:
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/P003_FB179DB158264.pdf
"DINING IN AND DINING OUT
The Dining In and Dining Out represent the most formal aspects of the Civil Air Patrol social life. The
Dining In is a formal dinner solely for the officers of a Wing, Unit or other organization
. The Dining Out
is a relatively new custom which includes spouses and guests. This form is commonly used in Civil Air
Patrol."


So...no NCOs for starters, nor mom, Jenny, or the guy from the airport who gives CAP hangar space.

Dining Outs can include non-service guests, are less formal, and de-emphasize many of the military
traditions because of the non-service audience (or at least that's what wiki says).
« Last Edit: August 13, 2018, 05:51:53 PM by Eclipse » Logged


PHall
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« Reply #62 on: August 13, 2018, 06:28:40 PM »

BTW CAPP 3 includes a "Sample Dining In Agenda", so this appears to be a nationally sanctioned activity.

Dining in?  Yes.

The grog nonsense?  No.

And considering that the document still contains the term "smoking lamp", not exactly the most
current in regards to social norms, despite its date.

Also this...
CAPP 3 Page 30:
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/P003_FB179DB158264.pdf
"DINING IN AND DINING OUT
The Dining In and Dining Out represent the most formal aspects of the Civil Air Patrol social life. The
Dining In is a formal dinner solely for the officers of a Wing, Unit or other organization
. The Dining Out
is a relatively new custom which includes spouses and guests. This form is commonly used in Civil Air
Patrol."


So...no NCOs for starters, nor mom, Jenny, or the guy from the airport who gives CAP hangar space.

Dining Outs can include non-service guests, are less formal, and de-emphasize many of the military
traditions because of the non-service audience (or at least that's what wiki says).


Then I guess the Air Force units I was a member of were doing it wrong because ALL unit members, officer and enlisted were expected to attend.
Granted these were flying units, but still, this was the "real military".
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Eclipse
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« Reply #63 on: August 13, 2018, 06:57:37 PM »

Then I guess the Air Force units I was a member of were doing it wrong because ALL unit members, officer and enlisted were expected to attend.
Granted these were flying units, but still, this was the "real military".

Just quoting the pamphlet that was proposed to justify the practice...
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NIN
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« Reply #64 on: August 13, 2018, 07:20:15 PM »

By the by, the term "smoking lamp" hasn't been used to denote "smoke 'em if you got 'em" since well before I joined CAP.

It's a symbolic term for "we're on."

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