Way, way, way back, in the 60's, whether or not the Posse Comitatus Act NEEDED to be mentioned much, it was frequently referenced as the justification for not "guarding" aircraft at airshows, or guarding crash sites. There were a lot of anecdotes about matters escalating to the point of physical contact, sometimes ending with "citizen's arrests." Those were sometimes followed by lawsuits, which put CAP Inc. in a weird place, it's members having invented authority in some cases, or having been actually deputized in others. The easy solution was to simply say "Nuh-uh! Posse Comitatus! You/We can't do that!"
(I wouldn't be surprised to hear that was how CAP acquired a TWELFTH General Order, to accompany the original 11 (at the time; I think only the Marines have kept all 11, the Army went to 3 sometime in the 60's or 70's and I have no idea what anybody uses now). That 12th General Order was "To use no force or show of force in the execution of my duties").
Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on September 02, 2018, 10:04:05 PMWay, way, way back, in the 60's, whether or not the Posse Comitatus Act NEEDED to be mentioned much, it was frequently referenced as the justification for not "guarding" aircraft at airshows, or guarding crash sites. There were a lot of anecdotes about matters escalating to the point of physical contact, sometimes ending with "citizen's arrests." Those were sometimes followed by lawsuits, which put CAP Inc. in a weird place, it's members having invented authority in some cases, or having been actually deputized in others. The easy solution was to simply say "Nuh-uh! Posse Comitatus! You/We can't do that!"I understand why the ruse might be needed - anyone Whacker enough to belive they could be "deputized", or that even if they could it's a good idea, might need some fancy-sounding Latin to slow their roll, but those with common sense would know they aren't LE, regardless, and wouldn't want to be mistaken as such.Despite this, there's plenty of airshows that indicate CAP members will "secure" aircraft, flight lines, etc.Because people like the way that sounds, despite the knowledge that an 8-year-old can kick them in the shinsand run into the plane they are "securing".Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on September 02, 2018, 10:04:05 PM(I wouldn't be surprised to hear that was how CAP acquired a TWELFTH General Order, to accompany the original 11 (at the time; I think only the Marines have kept all 11, the Army went to 3 sometime in the 60's or 70's and I have no idea what anybody uses now). That 12th General Order was "To use no force or show of force in the execution of my duties").CAP General what now?
The 12 General Orders. They WERE a real thing. Feel free to look them up in your CAPM 50-3.
I understand why the ruse might be needed - anyone Whacker enough to belive they could be "deputized", or that even if they could it's a good idea, might need some fancy-sounding Latin to slow their roll, but those with common sense would know they aren't LE, regardless, and wouldn't want to be mistaken as such....
That 12th General Order was "To use no force or show of force in the execution of my duties").
Quote from: Eclipse on September 02, 2018, 10:26:40 PMI understand why the ruse might be needed - anyone Whacker enough to belive they could be "deputized", or that even if they could it's a good idea, might need some fancy-sounding Latin to slow their roll, but those with common sense would know they aren't LE, regardless, and wouldn't want to be mistaken as such....To an EMT like me, the general idea of being deputized doesn't seem the least bit whacker. Every time I hold a drunk driver still while the cop puts the cuffs on, or transport a drunk driver in an ambulance while the cop follows in her cruiser, I've been "deputized". (In my state, there's no ceremony; the officer asks for help, and you do it.)R900_3 is really quite confusing. It presents itself as a regulation of a not-for-profit organization, and as such, it's trumped by state law. But, at least in some situations, it's the Posse Comitatus Act that's operative. Since that's a federal law, it trumps state law. But the CAP member who only reads R900_3 wouldn't know about the Posse Comitatus Act.
There's no place to be confused as long as you don't try to make CAP something it's not.Members only need to know about PCA as general information, since the actions it governs bind the agencies and military, not the member per-se.A CAP member only reading 900-3 would be fine, because regardless of PCA, the reg says a member can't be deputized, so PCA is extraneous. PCA may well have informed the verbiage of the reg, but it doesn't even appear there, because it doesn't need to.What you may, or may not be bound to do as an EMT is irrelevant to what you may or may not do in a CAP uniform.Being a medical professional, LEO, mandatory reporter, etc., etc., doesn't supercede CAP regs in regards to your following them, it means that as soon as some higher authority you need to to obey kicks in, you are nolonger acting as a CAP member, nor will you be protected by the corporation.From that point forward you're acting under whatever authority, jurisdiction, or responsibility that outside agency affords or requires.
To the member who reads R900_3 but not PCA,it appears it's merely the regulation of a non-profit organization that prevents the member from being "deputized". Supposing the member is also aware of the law in his/her state authorizing LEOs to demand the assistance of the inhabitants, the member would naturally suppose R900_3 is superseded by the state law. But on an Air Force assigned mission, it probably isn't; PCA probably applies. Eclipse says PCA applies to organizations, not members. My understanding is PCA theoretically would punish the LEO who demanded active law enforcement help from a CAP member on an AF assigned mission*, not the CAP member who followed the LEO's order. But the CAP member would be exposed, because the CAP member would be disobeying the CAP regulation and following an illegal order.*I've read that no one has ever been prosecuted for following PCA, but those who have been arrested by, or with the aid of, the military have used PCA to further their cause.
First, where are US citizens forced to be conscripted to a posse?
Second, absent literal apocalypse, what Sheriff or LEO would ever even consider that idea?
Quote from: Eclipse on September 03, 2018, 01:12:52 PMFirst, where are US citizens forced to be conscripted to a posse?From what I know, a person has to be in agreement with being deputized. The individual also has to put forward any issues with acting in a LE capacity. (For example, I don't believe someone with a felony record may be deputized.)So, it can't be forced. Quote from: Eclipse on September 03, 2018, 01:12:52 PMSecond, absent literal apocalypse, what Sheriff or LEO would ever even consider that idea?In my state a person who refuses to assist a LEO is subject to a fine. However, the person is not required to take excessive risk, so it would be hard to enforce.Pretty much.
In my state a person who refuses to assist a LEO is subject to a fine. However, the person is not required to take excessive risk, so it would be hard to enforce.Pretty much.
Quote from: xyzzy on September 03, 2018, 06:04:01 PMIn my state a person who refuses to assist a LEO is subject to a fine. However, the person is not required to take excessive risk, so it would be hard to enforce.Pretty much.Cite please. This isn't the Seinfeld universe.Almost every state has some "value-add" law regarding assisting a peace officer. That's not thesame as being deputized, that's "Hey! Stop that guy!"Also, this went from "EMTs who must" to "a person", which is it?This is a typical conversation where members want to conflate "edge case emergency" to "normal operations".
“Being deputized” and “Hey! Stop that guy!” ARE NOT the same thing. Being deputized involves swearing to uphold laws, ordinances, and regulations. Involves swearing to follow officer's directives. Stop that guy? ANYONE can yell or be the eyes and eras. Two completely different concepts! Otherwise we can say that anytime CAP is at an airshow manning the snow fence, we are sheriff's deputies! Anytime someone does a CD mission, he is a deputy!IN YOUR DREAMS!
Quote from: supertigerCH on August 31, 2018, 12:05:59 AMQuote from: francisderosa16 on July 01, 2018, 09:04:15 PMHello,I have the theory of why CAP is Civilian. It could be because the Military can't deploy on US soil, [except: National and Air National Guard]. can't deploy on U.S. soil...except for... 1776 - 1783 -- Revolutionary WarWar of 18121846 - 1848 -- Mexican War1860 - 1865 -- Civil War late 1700's - early 1900's -- Various Wars with Native Americans in U.S. states & territories... (also while expanding into/settling the west)1932 -- during the Great Depression years... against American Veterans ("Bonus Army" incident)1957 -- 101st Airborne sent to Little Rock Arkansas... to have schools comply with new laws requiring racial integrationDid i miss any? Meaning, any after 1878 that apply?
Quote from: francisderosa16 on July 01, 2018, 09:04:15 PMHello,I have the theory of why CAP is Civilian. It could be because the Military can't deploy on US soil, [except: National and Air National Guard]. can't deploy on U.S. soil...except for... 1776 - 1783 -- Revolutionary WarWar of 18121846 - 1848 -- Mexican War1860 - 1865 -- Civil War late 1700's - early 1900's -- Various Wars with Native Americans in U.S. states & territories... (also while expanding into/settling the west)1932 -- during the Great Depression years... against American Veterans ("Bonus Army" incident)1957 -- 101st Airborne sent to Little Rock Arkansas... to have schools comply with new laws requiring racial integrationDid i miss any?
Hello,I have the theory of why CAP is Civilian. It could be because the Military can't deploy on US soil, [except: National and Air National Guard].