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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: CAP and Why We are Civilian
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Author Topic: CAP and Why We are Civilian  (Read 6151 times)
MSG Mac
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,903
Unit: MER-MD-071

« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2018, 03:31:57 PM »

Posse Comitatus Act. The Posse Comitatus Act is the United States federal law that was passed on June 18, 1878, after the end of Reconstruction and was updated in 1981. Its intent was to limit the powers of Federal government in using federal military personnel to enforce the State laws.

As has been pointed out there have been exceptions to the law, including the Little Rock school desegregation. the Governor refused to have the Police or NG to assist so President Eisenhower sent a unit of the 101st
Airborne.
But there are numerous examples of federal troops being deployed to assist during National Disasters. Including Hurricane Katrina/Rita, Mississippi  river flooding, earthquakes, etc.
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Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
Mitchell 1969
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 807
Unit: PCR-CA-051

« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2018, 01:12:05 AM »

Isn't simply wearing a uniform that closely resembles the AF enough for some folks? Do they really dream of being "deployed" so they can see some "action"?  Why can't everyone simply understand that, uniforms or not, we are simply a group of civilian volunteers?

Has it always been this way, or has the recent advertising campaigns of "Total Force" just confused some? Maybe the top brass at the AF should weigh in and remind us of our civilian status.

(Yes, I thought I would be the first to bring up uniforms as a way to sidetrack the thread. ;) )

I don’t know about “always,” but I remember when an earthquake struck Managua, Nicaragua in 1972.

What followed was known in some circles as “The Managua Disaster Disaster.”

Latrine-o-grams were circulating like crazy regarding CAP. Such as CAP being “mobilized” for assignments in Nicaragua to unload C-130s full of supplies.

Even better - rumors that CAP members were being mobilized to receive “emergency field training” as “assistant loadmasters” and CAP multi-engine rated pilots being mobilized to serve as “crew relief co-pilots.”

All of this was supposedly due to military resources being stretched thin in Vietnam.

Just as one ludicrous rumor would be put to bed, another would arise.

Good times.


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_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
supertigerCH
Forum Regular

Posts: 137

« Reply #22 on: August 30, 2018, 08:05:59 PM »

Hello,

I have the theory of why CAP is Civilian. It could be because the Military can't deploy on US soil, [except: National and Air National Guard].


can't deploy on U.S. soil...

except for...

1776 - 1783 -- Revolutionary War
War of 1812
1846 - 1848 -- Mexican War
1860 - 1865 -- Civil War
late 1700's - early 1900's  -- Various Wars with Native Americans in U.S. states & territories... (also while expanding into/settling the west)
1932 -- during the Great Depression years... against American Veterans ("Bonus Army" incident)
1957 -- 101st Airborne sent to Little Rock Arkansas... to have schools comply with new laws requiring racial integration


Did i miss any?   ;D 




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Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,124
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #23 on: August 30, 2018, 09:29:19 PM »

Hello,

I have the theory of why CAP is Civilian. It could be because the Military can't deploy on US soil, [except: National and Air National Guard].


can't deploy on U.S. soil...

except for...

1776 - 1783 -- Revolutionary War
War of 1812
1846 - 1848 -- Mexican War
1860 - 1865 -- Civil War
late 1700's - early 1900's  -- Various Wars with Native Americans in U.S. states & territories... (also while expanding into/settling the west)
1932 -- during the Great Depression years... against American Veterans ("Bonus Army" incident)
1957 -- 101st Airborne sent to Little Rock Arkansas... to have schools comply with new laws requiring racial integration


Did i miss any?   ;D

Meaning, any after 1878 that apply?   ::)


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Nick
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 518
Unit: SWR-TX-001

« Reply #24 on: August 30, 2018, 10:02:52 PM »

So there’s 10 USC 9442...

Quote
(a)Volunteer Civilian Auxiliary.—
The Civil Air Patrol is a volunteer civilian auxiliary of the Air Force when the services of the Civil Air Patrol are used by any department or agency in any branch of the Federal Government.

(b)Use by Air Force.—
(1) The Secretary of the Air Force may use the services of the Civil Air Patrol to fulfill the noncombat programs and missions of the Department of the Air Force.
(2) The Civil Air Patrol shall be deemed to be an instrumentality of the United States with respect to any act or omission of the Civil Air Patrol, including any member of the Civil Air Patrol, in carrying out a mission assigned by the Secretary of the Air Force.

When that “instrumentality of the United States” switch gets flipped (e.g., in an A or B mission status), the Posse Comitatus restriction kicks in. See any 1 AF legal brief in the last 5 years for more information.

When in a corporate status, it’s a non-starting issue because there is no USG affiliation for the work CAP is performing.
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Nicholas McLarty, Lt Col, CAP
Texas Wing Staff Guy
National Cadet Team Guy
etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,221

« Reply #25 on: August 30, 2018, 10:13:11 PM »



Quote
(a)Volunteer Civilian Auxiliary.—
The Civil Air Patrol is a volunteer civilian auxiliary of the Air Force when the services of the Civil Air Patrol are used by any department or agency in any branch of the Federal Government.


^^^ Emphasis mine.

When most folks say it they just say "auxiliary of the Air Force" ... when in reality they should say volunteer civilian auxiliary of the Air Force

.. but that doesn't fit what they want into say. LOL
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MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,946

« Reply #26 on: August 30, 2018, 10:36:04 PM »

The proper term is "Air Force Auxiliary" - it's right there on both the seal and the new 2018 insignia.

Forcing "volunteer civilian" or anything else into the verbiage shows it's own slant.

If people ask "what that means?" then explain.
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DakRadz
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,364

« Reply #27 on: August 30, 2018, 11:29:44 PM »



Quote
(a)Volunteer Civilian Auxiliary.—
The Civil Air Patrol is a volunteer civilian auxiliary of the Air Force when the services of the Civil Air Patrol are used by any department or agency in any branch of the Federal Government.


^^^ Emphasis mine.

When most folks say it they just say "auxiliary of the Air Force" ... when in reality they should say volunteer civilian auxiliary of the Air Force

.. but that doesn't fit what they want into say. LOL

I usually lead with the civilian portion. While not as prevalent here in the MidWest BooniesTM, it does help with the wide eyed look resulting from a parent assuming I am conscripting their 12 year old into military service. (And yes, I've several of those anecdotal incidents to learn how phrasing helps)
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etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,221

« Reply #28 on: August 31, 2018, 12:12:14 AM »


I usually lead with the civilian portion. While not as prevalent here in the MidWest BooniesTM, it does help with the wide eyed look resulting from a parent assuming I am conscripting their 12 year old into military service. (And yes, I've several of those anecdotal incidents to learn how phrasing helps)

For sure.  I can talk to new folks, about Civil Air Patrol and what we do, for hours, and never even mention the Air Force. Its like an after-thought, if I ever mention it at all.
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MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO
TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,395

« Reply #29 on: August 31, 2018, 10:38:03 AM »


I usually lead with the civilian portion. While not as prevalent here in the MidWest BooniesTM, it does help with the wide eyed look resulting from a parent assuming I am conscripting their 12 year old into military service. (And yes, I've several of those anecdotal incidents to learn how phrasing helps)

For sure.  I can talk to new folks, about Civil Air Patrol and what we do, for hours, and never even mention the Air Force. Its like an after-thought, if I ever mention it at all.

That's the biggest recruiting ploy there is: "We're the Auxiliary of the U.S. Air Force. :clap: " (self applause)

More accurate:
"The CAP Cadet Program is a youth leadership program which uses of a variety of aerospace and military-style training elements to develop teens to become active, responsible members of their community."

From the Cadet Program standpoint, the Air Force provides training opportunities and experiences, but cadets really do not serve under the Air Force aside from being part of the aerospace education mission.

The senior member side is a totally different ballgame in their affiliation with the Air Force as they serve in a more direct support capacity. I would consider this to include cadets that have various qualifications that allow them to participate in that capacity, but that's not really in the overall realm of the Cadet Program curricula; it's an add-on. Keep in mind that CAP Emergency Services is not always performing support for the Air Force. There are a number of state and local functions that may have similarities, but they are not tasks that would otherwise be assigned to the Air Force if CAP weren't performing them.
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waukwiz
Member

Posts: 70
Unit: GLR-WI-048

« Reply #30 on: September 01, 2018, 02:06:18 PM »

"volunteer civilian auxiliary" seems kind of redundant, aren't auxiliaries by nature "voluntary" and "civilian"?
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Cadet Cullen Mayes
Waukesha Composite Squadron
"Ok, how about instead of doing that, let's not do that. Ok?"
The senseless drivel in this post is Copyright © 2017 by waukwiz. All parking spots are reserved. Vague and confusing permission is given to quote this post anywhere except CAP-Talk only.
jeders
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,091

« Reply #31 on: September 01, 2018, 03:13:56 PM »

"volunteer civilian auxiliary" seems kind of redundant, aren't auxiliaries by nature "voluntary" and "civilian"?

From Wikipedia:

Quote
An auxiliary force is an organized group supplementing but not directly incorporated in a regular military or police entity. It may comprise either civilian volunteers undertaking support functions or additional personnel directly performing military or police duties, usually on a part-time basis.

Historically the designation "auxiliary" has also been given to foreign or allied troops in the service of a nation at war
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If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse
ZigZag911
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,985

« Reply #32 on: September 01, 2018, 11:27:50 PM »

See CAPR 900-3, para. 3

Since my cadet days in the 1970s, the Posse Comitatus Act has always been cited by National and CAP-USAF as the reason behind the prohibitions and limitations listed in this regulation.
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SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,401
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #33 on: September 02, 2018, 12:47:20 PM »

See CAPR 900-3, para. 3

Since my cadet days in the 1970s, the Posse Comitatus Act has always been cited by National and CAP-USAF as the reason behind the prohibitions and limitations listed in this regulation.

It goes back to the 1960s for me.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,946

« Reply #34 on: September 02, 2018, 01:22:06 PM »

The PCA is frequently cited as the "Reason®" CAP can't do this, that, or the other, but
it's, IMHO, generally misinterpreted, or "flexible" when necessary (i.e. CD flights).  There are plenty
of ways to characterize a given task or mission to take it out of LE and into HLS or SAR.

"Reconnaissance" vs. "surveillance", for example.

But the reality is that those writing the regs had the good sense to understand that CAP members, per se,
aren't remotely prepared for the ramifications of becoming involved with law enforcement on anything
but the most peripheral level.

When you see how far off the rails some members can take basic, clear regulations about normal ops,
just imagine the "fun" having an LE mission would entail.

I'd give CAP 6 months to a year of that before the whole thing was shut down either by the DOJ or civil courts.
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PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,208

« Reply #35 on: September 02, 2018, 01:38:08 PM »

As per AFI 10-2701, 7 AUGUST 2018

2.2.2.1. Limitations. Flight operations during Air Force-assigned missions performed by
Civil Air Patrol are subject to Federal Aviation Administration regulations and directives.
Air Force-assigned missions performed by Civil Air Patrol in support of other federal
agencies do not involve the targeting or surveillance of persons, groups of persons,
buildings, or vehicles, unless specifically permitted by Air Force-assigned mission
approval authority. Civil Air Patrol is not an intelligence gathering organization, has no
assigned intelligence mission, and does not engage in intelligence activities. Civil Air
Patrol members are not assigned activities prohibited by the Posse Comitatus Act.


Emphasis mine.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,946

« Reply #36 on: September 02, 2018, 01:46:59 PM »

This is what 18 U.S. Code § 1385 actually says:

"Whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army or the
Air Force as a posse comitatus or otherwise to execute the laws shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both."


When is CAP "part of the Air Force"?

1AF makes it clear it's only on their missions, so the other 99% of the year, PCA doesn't apply, which
is why you still need the internal CAP regs prohibiting LE activities.

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PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,208

« Reply #37 on: September 02, 2018, 03:43:13 PM »

AFI 10-2701 is the governing reg for CAP when we are performing an Air Force assigned mission.
The federal law you quoted applies the rest of the time.

You were at Katrina, do you really want to perform law enforcement functions in an environment like that?
« Last Edit: September 02, 2018, 03:47:50 PM by PHall » Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,946

« Reply #38 on: September 02, 2018, 03:47:58 PM »

You were at Katrina, do you really want to perform law enforcement functions in an environment like that?

I don't want to do anything LE-related period, especially in a CAP uniforms,
but Katrina is a fine example of a "double-NOPE".

This issue isn't wanting to or not, it's that PCA is used an the excuse as to why a given mission
isn't accepted, or silliness like removing USAF Aux from the tails (now going back on), etc., when in
fact it's not really a CAP-issue.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2018, 03:52:24 PM by Eclipse » Logged


Mitchell 1969
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 807
Unit: PCR-CA-051

« Reply #39 on: September 02, 2018, 06:04:05 PM »

AFI 10-2701 is the governing reg for CAP when we are performing an Air Force assigned mission.
The federal law you quoted applies the rest of the time.

You were at Katrina, do you really want to perform law enforcement functions in an environment like that?

Way, way, way back, in the 60's, whether or not the Posse Comitatus Act NEEDED to be mentioned much, it was frequently referenced as the justification for not "guarding" aircraft at airshows, or guarding crash sites. There were a lot of anecdotes about matters escalating to the point of physical contact, sometimes ending with "citizen's arrests." Those were sometimes followed by lawsuits, which put CAP Inc. in a weird place, it's members having invented authority in some cases, or having been actually deputized in others.

The easy solution was to simply say "Nuh-uh! Posse Comitatus!  You/We can't do that!"

(I wouldn't be surprised to hear that was how CAP acquired a TWELFTH General Order, to accompany the original 11 (at the time; I think only the Marines have kept all 11, the Army went to 3 sometime in the 60's or 70's and I have no idea what anybody uses now).  That 12th General Order was "To use no force or show of force in the execution of my duties").
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_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: CAP and Why We are Civilian
 


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