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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Safety  |  Topic: Active Shooter Training revisited
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Live2Learn
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 703

« on: March 13, 2018, 12:43:18 PM »

Any of us recall the controversy and angst about discussing appropriate responses to active shooters when the topic was broached just 2 1/2 short years ago?  Last night I attended a CAP corporate mandated training that covered some of the same active shooter information that was so flamingly controversial on this forum way back when...

IMHO, the CAP corporate mandated material was voluminous and a bit unfocused.  Including material and teaming Safety with the Chaplain's Corps was a great idea.  It's really clear that care is necessary for near victims, victims, and others well after the event.  The TSA video was a well done addition that set the stage for excellent discussion.  Some of the observations offered by viewers of the video, noted did actors in the video neglected to barricade the doors in nearly every scenario.  Actors also said "call the police" which might not be the best phrasing... in stressful situations many people simply cannot process information easily.   Point and then say "CALL 911" would be more likely to elicit an immediate call. 

Here in my community we've had more than one recent false alarm of gunshots since the Florida event.  What other sounds can be interpreted as gun shots?  One police officer in the Squadron pointed out that a slamming toilet seat can have a similar sound.

I thought the videos by the psychologist were great!  They provided a very good transition between the safety conversation and the Chaplain's piece. 

FWIW, at least four scenarios were discussed in our squadron:  Schools; office settings (note that a very high percentage of offices now are open with cubicles created by flimsy partitions - not the individual offices presented in the TSA video); malls with large open areas and shops; and open air (cover/concealment free) gatherings.  Each has it's own unique characteristics for Run, Hide (Cover/Concealment); and FIGHT. 

The material took a long time to plow through.  I could tell, as a non-presenting participant, that death by powerpoint was imminent.  Perhaps some other instructional methods, such as small breakouts with some pre-briefed discussion group leaders might have made the experience more meaningful, and enhanced retention.  Role playing is also helpful. 

Since the ice is now broken, I assume CAP no longer departs from direction in the regs that allows Safety Officers to identify and then present material that is appropriate for topics that are emergent and/or locally important.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,339

« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2018, 02:36:58 PM »

The fact that something was "controversial" here, has no relevance to whether or not NHQ should be
doing it, nor does the fact that NHQ has a reaction to the news and feels it needs to provide "training"
where it does not.

I hate the fact that AS is a reality of my kids' lives, but they don't need to be getting "reinforcement"
of the "training" from CAP. 

Run, hide, or fight.  There.  We're all trained.

CAP safety topics should be focused and specific to CAP operations, and leave winter driving,
turkey fryers, and yes, AS, to the professionals.  This is another area where kids are hammered
at school with enough information to scare them as is, not to mention making AS seem more like
a "normal" part of life.

FWIW, until the mental health and family issues are addressed in some meaningful way in this country,
protests, walkouts, legislation, and even AS training are pretty much meaningless in prevention.

But in today's "society" of slacktivism and "noise over signal" doing "something" feels like actually
doing something, so there you go.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2018, 04:12:29 PM by Eclipse » Logged


Fester
Forum Regular

Posts: 171

« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2018, 04:25:59 PM »

The fact that something was "controversial" here, has no relevance to whether or not NHQ should be
doing it, nor does the fact that NHQ has a reaction to the news and feels it needs to provide "training"
where it does not.

I hate the fact that AS is a reality of my kids' lives, but they don't need to be getting "reinforcement"
of the "training" from CAP. 

Run, hide, or fight.  There.  We're all trained.

CAP safety topics should be focused and specific to CAP operations, and leave winter driving,
turkey fryers, and yes, AS, to the professionals.  This is another area where kids are hammered
at school with enough information to scare them as is, not to mention making AS seem more like
a "normal" part of life.

FWIW, until the mental health and family issues are addressed in some meaningful way in this country,
protests, walkouts, legislation, and even AS training are pretty much meaningless in prevention.

But in today's "society" of slacktivism and "noise over signal" doing "something" feels like actually
doing something, so there you go.

Because legislation hasn't done anything in nearly every other civilized nation.......

Can you show me evidence that we have a higher rate of mental illness in our country? 
Can you show me evidence that we have a higher rate of "family issues" in our country?

And I can break down your training curriculum even more.... "fight or flight."
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abdsp51
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,598
Unit: Classified

« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2018, 04:35:57 PM »

Tick Tock....
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,339

« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2018, 04:36:43 PM »

Can you show me evidence that we have a higher rate of mental illness in our country? 
Can you show me evidence that we have a higher rate of "family issues" in our country?

I don't need to as I didn't make the assertion the US had "more", however in every case of active
shooters in a school environment I can think of, there have been documented mental health issues
with the shooters, and in many (most?) cases family issues.

With that said, CAPTalk isn't the place for this debate, except for where it directly touches CAP
operations, and my primary issue is that with the already limited contact hours CAP
has, it shouldn't be wasting them trying to be "all things"- it should focus on CAP and the mission
and leave things like this at the door, knowing it's already saturating the kids' lives.

Tick Tock....

Pretty much.
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JayT
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,338

« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2018, 05:59:36 PM »

IFWIW, until the mental health and family issues are addressed in some meaningful way in this country,
protests, walkouts, legislation, and even AS training are pretty much meaningless in prevention.

But in today's "society" of slacktivism and "noise over signal" doing "something" feels like actually
doing something, so there you go.

Like whining on a forum about today's youth?
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"Eagerness and thrill seeking in others' misery is psychologically corrosive, and is also rampant in EMS. It's a natural danger of the job. It will be something to keep under control, something to fight against."
Fester
Forum Regular

Posts: 171

« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2018, 07:18:06 PM »

And forgetting that his generation are the ones that raised those whiny youths.....
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EMT-83
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,887

« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2018, 07:38:05 PM »

And forgetting that his generation are the ones that raised those whiny youths.....

Speak for yourself.
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Live2Learn
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 703

« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2018, 08:01:12 PM »

I think Eclipse brings up a good point:  What is "CAP" related?   For some reason I have the impression one of our goals in the Cadet program is to teach life skills.  IMHO, situational awareness is a critical survival skill that is high on that list.  Another skill set is ability to act promptly and correctly under pressure.  Both are very important as we instill leadership skills in the young people who participate in CAP.  Isn't that part of belonging, teamwork, etc. 

Much as we'd like to segregate AS survival skills as unnecessary or maybe way outside of CAP's mission I believe the skills for dealing with AS, a car wreck, a derailed train, etc. have strong similarities.  Previous thought and simulated experiences are avenues to developing appropriate responses - why else would we practice fire drills or EPs in the cockpit? 

While I respect Eclipse's views, I do not agree with them.  It's very obvious that 'soft targets' abound.  Events like the December 2015 San Diego ISIS wannabe couple who murdered over a dozen people at a holiday party could easily occur in a school setting, mall, beach, or where ever people congregate.  It is definitely short sighted, IMHO, to label all who act with murderous intent as 'mentally ill'.  Extremist views and people who act on them occur even in 'home town USA'.  Based on input from cadets in my squadron, they are exposed to 'lock down' strategies at school which is a variant of "hide".  "Run" and "Fight" not so much.
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Live2Learn
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 703

« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2018, 08:03:00 PM »


Come on guys and gals.   No personal attacks.  That's not what we signed on for when we joined the forum.  Disagree with respect.
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Fester
Forum Regular

Posts: 171

« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2018, 08:21:20 PM »

What personal attacks?  All I see are generalizations, nothing personalized.

I wasn't aware that there was ANY mandated training with regards to AS situations.  I believe that what we should be teaching and instilling is more generalized knowledge and skills around situational awareness.

Bottom line, though, I find it overwhelmingly disheartening that my generation (X) and those before mine have been so overwhelmingly negligent with regards to public policy about maintaining safety in public spaces such as schools, churches, shopping malls, movie theaters, etc... to the point where we are forcing our children (and cadets) to be familiarized and trained in these types of situations. 

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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,339

« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2018, 09:17:36 PM »

I wasn't aware that there was ANY mandated training with regards to AS situations.

There normally isn't, but after Parkland NHQ mandated that some AS training be done within 30 days.

Many units used it as their monthly CDI.
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abdsp51
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,598
Unit: Classified

« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2018, 09:20:37 PM »

What personal attacks?  All I see are generalizations, nothing personalized.

I wasn't aware that there was ANY mandated training with regards to AS situations.  I believe that what we should be teaching and instilling is more generalized knowledge and skills around situational awareness.

Bottom line, though, I find it overwhelmingly disheartening that my generation (X) and those before mine have been so overwhelmingly negligent with regards to public policy about maintaining safety in public spaces such as schools, churches, shopping malls, movie theaters, etc... to the point where we are forcing our children (and cadets) to be familiarized and trained in these types of situations.

Liberal ideology is to blame.
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Fester
Forum Regular

Posts: 171

« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2018, 09:41:01 PM »

What personal attacks?  All I see are generalizations, nothing personalized.

I wasn't aware that there was ANY mandated training with regards to AS situations.  I believe that what we should be teaching and instilling is more generalized knowledge and skills around situational awareness.

Bottom line, though, I find it overwhelmingly disheartening that my generation (X) and those before mine have been so overwhelmingly negligent with regards to public policy about maintaining safety in public spaces such as schools, churches, shopping malls, movie theaters, etc... to the point where we are forcing our children (and cadets) to be familiarized and trained in these types of situations.

Liberal ideology is to blame.

Explain.  Include cited sources.
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abdsp51
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,598
Unit: Classified

« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2018, 09:49:05 PM »

Prove it's not.
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Fester
Forum Regular

Posts: 171

« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2018, 09:53:26 PM »

You're the one that made the ridiculous claim.  The onus is on you.  Otherwise, the claim is nothing more than an unsubstantiated opinion that isn't based in fact.  And does nothing but show your disdain and disregard for those with whom you disagree. 

Furthermore, the claim is polar opposite of our Core Value of Respect.
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abdsp51
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,598
Unit: Classified

« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2018, 10:05:14 PM »

You're the one that made the ridiculous claim.  The onus is on you.  Otherwise, the claim is nothing more than an unsubstantiated opinion that isn't based in fact.  And does nothing but show your disdain and disregard for those with whom you disagree. 

Furthermore, the claim is polar opposite of our Core Value of Respect.

A person can be respected and not their ideology.  All anyone has to do is look around to see what that ideology has done.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,339

« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2018, 10:09:31 PM »

Based on input from cadets in my squadron, they are exposed to 'lock down' strategies at school which is a variant of "hide".  "Run" and "Fight" not so much.

The A.L.I.C.E. concept is relatively new and evolved as the threats have.

Alert - Lockdown - Inform - Counter - Evacuate

https://www.alicetraining.com/our-program/alice-training/k12-education/age-appropriate/

The "Counter" or "fight" is primarily intended for adults, but I've told my kids recently that if hiding
or running isn't an option, throw a desk, or anything else you can grab.
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OldGuy
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 508
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2018, 10:45:07 PM »

One comment I heard was that the handout was objectionable. Have yet to see same, so withholding judgment.
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Live2Learn
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 703

« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2018, 11:14:12 PM »


The "Counter" or "fight" is primarily intended for adults, but I've told my kids recently that if hiding or running isn't an option, throw a desk, or anything else you can grab.


I discussed this topic with my kids a long time ago and offered pretty much the same advice.  Get away if you can, hide (considering cover vs conceal) if you must, but always think of ways to fight.  I expect the grand kids will share some of the same conversations with their parents as the grow.

The age of the young people involved in these events varies hugely.  Responses from teens I should be very different from pre-teen adolescents, and vastly different from kids in the early elementary school etc. ages.  This is really NOT set of strategies that are one size fits all.  Most HS and many middle school students should be able to respond in a very mature manner if given the training and opportunity to think about their actions prior to an event. IMHO, the sheep like response of many adults when placed in these situations comes from the very highly secure lives we lead in the US.  Yes, there's a lot of 'news' that centers on crime, but it's not necessarily within the personal experience of most US citizens.  Some communities excepted.
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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Safety  |  Topic: Active Shooter Training revisited
 


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