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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: NCO selling points and benefits??
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Fubar
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 737

« Reply #180 on: August 24, 2017, 12:58:13 PM »

Or for those former cadets who enlist active duty after high school but want to remain in CAP.  I've rarely seen it outside of that.

The only flight officers I've seen are 18 and 19 year olds who no longer want the requirements of the cadet program but want to remain active with the cadet program. So they switch to flight officer, still participate in the cadet program but no longer worry about aerospace and leadership tests and whatnot. For one unit the kid served as the defacto cadet commander but was an assistant deputy to the commander on paper.

These were very small units who I think were just happy to keep someone on the roster from leaving and made it a little easier to ensure 2 "seniors" were present at the meetings.
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TIger
Recruit

Posts: 16

« Reply #181 on: August 24, 2017, 06:03:47 PM »

The biggest advantage is that you cannot be a commander as an NCO. I would guess that they don’t even ask.


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NIN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,986
Unit: of issue

« Reply #182 on: August 24, 2017, 07:26:12 PM »

The biggest advantage is that you cannot be a commander as an NCO. I would guess that they don’t even ask.


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Did you not see the part above where this was proven not to be true? Why do people keep repeating this?

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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2018 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,256

« Reply #183 on: August 24, 2017, 08:38:19 PM »

The biggest advantage is that you cannot be a commander as an NCO. I would guess that they don’t even ask.


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Did you not see the part above where this was proven not to be true? Why do people keep repeating this?

It's as "double-not-true-true®" as anything else in CAP.  The prohibition may have been removed from the regulations
(assuming it was ever actually in there somewhere), but it >was< in the proposal, and presumably the approval documents
that the CSAF, or whoever, signed when PD was approved for CAP NCOs, not to mention it was included in literally
every press release about same.

So...

They aren't supposed to command squadrons from an "NCO" perspective.

They aren't supposed to command squadrons from a program perspective.

Yet a few do for expedience.

Could that situation be any more "CAP".  Full, military power ambiguity so any behavior or vector desired can be accommodated.

Excellent.

"double-not-true-true®" is a registered trademark of eClipseco Mining and Heavy Machinery Consortium.  All Rights Reserved.  Let eClipseco service all of your rhetoric and propaganda needs!
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grunt82abn
Seasoned Member

Posts: 243

« Reply #184 on: August 24, 2017, 08:46:33 PM »

So what you are saying is we can't command but command when the commander says to command?


TSGT Sean Riley
IL-042
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Sean Riley, TSGT
US Army 1987 to 1994, WIARNG 1994 to 2008
DoD Firefighter Paramedic 2000 to Present
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,256

« Reply #185 on: August 24, 2017, 10:00:15 PM »

Or when the commander says to be a commander when you can't be a commander so command.

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grunt82abn
Seasoned Member

Posts: 243

« Reply #186 on: August 24, 2017, 10:01:08 PM »

Or when the commander says to be a commander when you can't be a commander so command.
Hahahaha



TSGT Sean Riley
IL-042
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Sean Riley, TSGT
US Army 1987 to 1994, WIARNG 1994 to 2008
DoD Firefighter Paramedic 2000 to Present
Jester
Seasoned Member

Posts: 358

« Reply #187 on: August 24, 2017, 10:40:35 PM »

I just saw the National Commander's brief on capmembers today that explicitly says commandering isn't authorized.

I doubt it will cease, but as of 11 August that's the word.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,256

« Reply #188 on: August 24, 2017, 11:07:37 PM »

I just saw the National Commander's brief on capmembers today that explicitly says commandering isn't authorized.

I doubt it will cease, but as of 11 August that's the word.

Seriously?  And I just got a brand new commandering hat!  Figures.
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PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,316

« Reply #189 on: August 25, 2017, 12:34:21 AM »

Well our CMSgt Squadron Commander just got appointed to be the Wing Command Chief. I don't think you can do this job in an IOAD status.
So the great quandary of the CMSgt Squadron Commander may be over! >:D
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Mitchell 1969
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 845
Unit: PCR-CA-051

« Reply #190 on: August 25, 2017, 01:54:29 AM »



It is again worth remembering that we have had NCOs since WWII.

Ned, you keep saying that, so I will point out, as I oft times do, that the claim is not completely accurate. While CAP has had NCOs between 1941 and now, that is not quite the same as saying "...since WWII," with the implication that the NCO presence has been continuous and on-going. There were a lot of years when CAP had NO NCOs, following a decision that stated there was little true difference between what CAP NCOs do vs CAP officers, as contrasted to the actual differences between military  NCOs and officers. CAP got along just fine without them; no compelling argument was ever made to bring them back, with them eventually returning not for need as much as ex-NCO want.

I understand that you like the concept. I'm a realist who believes that CAP will never bring in the experienced NCOs in sufficient numbers to truly make a difference and that true NCOs of the sort envisioned cannot be home-grown.

All that said, my main point remains this - that the "no NCO era" tends to get forgotten or even swept away during discussions. That era has validity for discussion purposes as an example of a "what was" that worked, with equal or greater validity than the "what might be" that has yet to come into being over several years.
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_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
MHC5096
Forum Regular

Posts: 163
Unit: NER-NY-043

« Reply #191 on: August 25, 2017, 07:03:06 AM »

I was a Deputy Commander for Cadets for my unit as a Senior Flight Officer.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 08:54:00 AM by MHC5096 » Logged
M. H. Crary
Lt Col, CAP (1983-Present)
BA-VIV/ADSO-HR/FSO-PV, USCG Auxiliary (2011-Present)
MSgt, USAF Ret. (1995-2011)
QM2, USN (1989-1995)
Adam B
Recruit

Posts: 32
Unit: 28-037

« Reply #192 on: August 25, 2017, 09:54:54 AM »

The only flight officers I've seen are 18 and 19 year olds who no longer want the requirements of the cadet program but want to remain active with the cadet program. So they switch to flight officer, still participate in the cadet program but no longer worry about aerospace and leadership tests and whatnot. For one unit the kid served as the defacto cadet commander but was an assistant deputy to the commander on paper.
If they're participating in the cadet program as a SM, they should be doing it from the proper SM perspective, not as an exempt-from-all-your-rules super-cadet.

We had the same issue at my squadron once.
We had a cadet who decided he really didn't like following directions, doing tests, doing PT, or participating in drill.
What he really wanted to do was wear a uniform, get saluted, and give orders to kids. So, when he turned 18, he went FO.
It all worked out about as well as you'd expect.  ::)

The other side of the coin is the squadron pressuring cadets into becoming FOs. I knew a C/Capt, who at 18 or 19, was told that if she really cared about her squadron, she'd become a SM. She did, missing out on another 2-3 more years of cadet opportunities, and most of Phase IV.
We don't serve our cadets by pressuring them out of the program as an alternative to senior recruiting.
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Adam B
Capt, CAP
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,256

« Reply #193 on: August 25, 2017, 10:31:40 AM »

The other side of the coin is the squadron pressuring cadets into becoming FOs. I knew a C/Capt, who at 18 or 19, was told that if she really cared about her squadron, she'd become a SM. She did, missing out on another 2-3 more years of cadet opportunities, and most of Phase IV.

I don't doubt for a minute this happened, people have "iders", however outside any other context, it makes no sense at all.
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Ned
Resident Philosopher

Posts: 2,202

« Reply #194 on: August 25, 2017, 10:36:06 AM »



It is again worth remembering that we have had NCOs since WWII.

Ned, you keep saying that, so I will point out, as I oft times do, that the claim is not completely accurate.

Bernie,

While I appreciate the historical perspective you provide, I must disagree and suggest that my statement is accurate as written.  While it is never wrong to use the word "since" to imply continuity between two points in time, it is not required.  The word "since" does not necessarily require "continuousness"; as in "Ned used to think X, but has since changed his mind".  Or "the cadet program has had a lot of changes since WWII."
Restated, it can have the sense of "then and now."

The helping word "ever" is sometimes used to help imply continuousness, as in "ever since WWII."


But semantics aside, the larger point remains:  we have had productive NCOs for the great majority of our proud 75 year history.  They have actively contributed to the mission.  And I would suspect that even you would agree they are nothing new.

And we may well further agree that we may never attract the thousands of NCOs that I would like to see.  B But I am grateful for every one of the dozens that do serve.  Every one is a potential CP resource of inesti mable value.
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Mitchell 1969
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 845
Unit: PCR-CA-051

« Reply #195 on: August 25, 2017, 02:21:04 PM »



While I appreciate the historical perspective you provide, I must disagree and suggest that my statement is accurate as written.  While it is never wrong to use the word "since" to imply continuity between two points in time, it is not required.  The word "since" does not necessarily require "continuousness"; as in "Ned used to think X, but has since changed his mind".  Or "the cadet program has had a lot of changes since WWII."
Restated, it can have the sense of "then and now."

Using your argument, above, should I eagerly await the arrival of my 50-year membership card next month? After all, i have been in CAP since September 1967. But...that wasn't continuous, so, I suppose not. I took a break in membership. It would.be more accurate, then, to say "I joined CAP in 1967. I have been a member for most of the time since then." (Just as it would be more accurate to say "CAP had NCOs in WWII. It has had NCOs for most of the time since then."


But semantics aside, the larger point remains:  we have had productive NCOs for the great majority of our proud 75 year history.  They have actively contributed to the mission.  And I would suspect that even you would agree they are nothing new.

And we may well further agree that we may never attract the thousands of NCOs that I would like to see.  B But I am grateful for every one of the dozens that do serve.  Every one is a potential CP resource of inesti mable value.

All true. But, it's also true for EVERY volunteer who served CAP. And, given that there is so very little difference between what CAP NCOs do, or can do, and what CAP non-NCOs do, or can do, that's why so many members just don't see the NCO program as much more than something tailor fit to a narrow audience for personal preference reasons.

But, it's here and I wish CAP luck with it. The only things I'm asking are that the reality of the "non-NCO years" not be forgotten and that the success of those years not be glossed over, but given due consideration during discussions. 
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_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,470
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #196 on: August 25, 2017, 06:40:11 PM »

Well, sports fans, after a detailed look at my extensive, and complete, collection of CAPM 39-1 Uniform Manuals, I have found that NCO grade insignia have always been permitted for wear. There was a period of time when it could only be worn "if earned prior to 1 July 1972," but it always been in the 39-1.

Now, I will concede that there probably weren't many, if any, NCOs hanging around from back then into the '90s, but  I don't think we have a reliable means of determining that.

Just my little bit of history.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
Ned
Resident Philosopher

Posts: 2,202

« Reply #197 on: August 25, 2017, 09:33:46 PM »


[. . .]And, given that there is so very little difference between what CAP NCOs do, or can do, and what CAP non-NCOs do, or can do, that's why so many members just don't see the NCO program as much more than something tailor fit to a narrow audience for personal preference reasons.

My position is that -in CP at least- NCOs can indeed do at least one thing that officers cannot.  And that is to model effective  NCO leadership styles.  As a former serviceman, I hope that you would agree that military NCOs lead with different techniques and styles than officers.  I grant you that most cadets never see a CAP NCO and turn out just fine, but since every cadet has to serve effectively as a cadet NCO, it can help to have role models, mentors, and trainers that are successful NCOs.

It's just a bonus that under our current system that NCOs come to us pre-trained and experienced as small unit leaders.  And are generally skilled in small unit administrative and support duties.

Again, we obviously have a successful program without a significant number of NCOs.  But we could be much, much better if we had more.

Quote
The only things I'm asking are that the reality of the "non-NCO years" not be forgotten and that the success of those years not be glossed over, but given due consideration during discussions.

I'm certainly no historian, but how sure are you that we were ever completely NCO-free?  I get that there was a time when we didn't appoint any, but were the existing NCOs forcibly reclassified or allowed to stay until retirement?  (Which usually means death for long-term senior members.)

Your bud, 

Ned
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kwe1009
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 915

« Reply #198 on: August 25, 2017, 09:45:35 PM »

My position is that -in CP at least- NCOs can indeed do at least one thing that officers cannot.  And that is to model effective  NCO leadership styles.  As a former serviceman, I hope that you would agree that military NCOs lead with different techniques and styles than officers.  I grant you that most cadets never see a CAP NCO and turn out just fine, but since every cadet has to serve effectively as a cadet NCO, it can help to have role models, mentors, and trainers that are successful NCOs.

It's just a bonus that under our current system that NCOs come to us pre-trained and experienced as small unit leaders.  And are generally skilled in small unit administrative and support duties.

Again, we obviously have a successful program without a significant number of NCOs.  But we could be much, much better if we had more.

Unfortunately not all NCO have the leadership training that so many people on here state.  Some great examples are the ones who just got line numbers for SSgt in the USAF.  Some of these individuals have been in the military for less than 3 years and may get out in 6 years or less so there is not much opportunity for training and experience.
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Ned
Resident Philosopher

Posts: 2,202

« Reply #199 on: August 25, 2017, 10:42:08 PM »


Unfortunately not all NCO have the leadership training that so many people on here state.

Like, say, compared to a non-prior-service, non-prior- cadet Senior Member 2d Lt?   8)

I fully understand that,  to paraphrase Garrison Keillor, "about half of the CAP NCOs will be below average."  One of them will be the worst NCO in CAP.

But essentially by definition, every military NCO has training and experience that would immeasurably benefit our Cadet Program.

That's my point.
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: NCO selling points and benefits??
 


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