CAP Talk

General Discussion => Membership => Topic started by: kcebnaes on January 08, 2017, 10:00:15 PM

Title: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: kcebnaes on January 08, 2017, 10:00:15 PM
I recently found out that my group has some former military NCO/SNCOs. What are some good selling points and benefits to switching to having stripes? As a non-military officer, I can't see the trees through the forest enough to properly describe it.

Thanks!
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: bd5av8r on January 08, 2017, 11:11:55 PM
The "NCO" program is basically for members who wish to wear their stripes earned while on active duty in the armed forces. The NCO program provides a way for CAP to promote them to higher grade should they choose to wear stripes versus officer rank.

Previously to the NCO program a member could wear stripes, but CAP had no method to promote them.

Major Williams
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: FW on January 08, 2017, 11:25:11 PM
This is where the "Search" function is a very valuable tool......
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: kcebnaes on January 09, 2017, 12:02:41 AM
Maj Williams- that's what I was sort of thinking as well.Thanks!



Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Ozzy on January 09, 2017, 01:32:44 AM
The "NCO" program is basically for members who wish to wear their stripes earned while on active duty in the armed forces. The NCO program provides a way for CAP to promote them to higher grade should they choose to wear stripes versus officer rank.

Previously to the NCO program a member could wear stripes, but CAP had no method to promote them.

Major Williams

Slight correction, it's for members that have been promoted to at least E-4 and that have served in any component of the armed forces, not just active duty.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: THRAWN on January 09, 2017, 10:56:27 AM
Here's four pages of info to start with: http://captalk.net/index.php?action=search2

EDIT 1217EST: DOH! It didn't do what I wanted. Enter NCO into the search box and you'll get a lot of material to review.

Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: kcebnaes on January 09, 2017, 12:48:43 PM
Hmmm, let me re-word my question: Why pick being an NCO over going the officer route? Current NCOs: why did you choose to keep your stripes?
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: kwe1009 on January 09, 2017, 01:06:40 PM
Hmmm, let me re-word my question: Why pick being an NCO over going the officer route? Current NCOs: why did you choose to keep your stripes?

I am not a CAP NCO but I am a USAF SNCO.  The only real difference between being a CAP NCO or officer that I can find is that an NCO can't hold a command position.

Yes the new CAP NCO program allows for promotions but only to a certain degree.  Per CAPR 39-3 there is only 1 MSgt position authorized per squadron so if you have 2 TSgts you can only promote the one filling the "Squadron NCO" position and they have to be in that position for 2 years to permanently keep that rank.  Only 1 SMSgt slot per Group/Wing/Region and only 1 CMSgt position per Wing/Region.  This does not leave a lot of room for promotions.  With the tenure requirements for the SNCO grades, a Wing will only be able to promote someone to CMSgt every 4 years for example.

Hopefully the officer side will follow suit and start limiting promotions as well.  As of right now the PD is the same for officers and NCOs but I believe that is supposed to change in the coming years.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: THRAWN on January 09, 2017, 01:15:53 PM
Hmmm, let me re-word my question: Why pick being an NCO over going the officer route? Current NCOs: why did you choose to keep your stripes?

I am not a CAP NCO but I am a USAF SNCO.  The only real difference between being a CAP NCO or officer that I can find is that an NCO can't hold a command position.

Yes the new CAP NCO program allows for promotions but only to a certain degree.  Per CAPR 39-3 there is only 1 MSgt position authorized per squadron so if you have 2 TSgts you can only promote the one filling the "Squadron NCO" position and they have to be in that position for 2 years to permanently keep that rank.  Only 1 SMSgt slot per Group/Wing/Region and only 1 CMSgt position per Wing/Region.  This does not leave a lot of room for promotions.  With the tenure requirements for the SNCO grades, a Wing will only be able to promote someone to CMSgt every 4 years for example.

Hopefully the officer side will follow suit and start limiting promotions as well.  As of right now the PD is the same for officers and NCOs but I believe that is supposed to change in the coming years.

Good info, but I'm not sure it answers the OP actual question: why would someone choose to be a CPA NCO versus a CAP officer? What are the opportunities for a NCO to develop professionally and help in the development of their unit? What are the benefits to being a CAP NCO?

Without going too far indepth, there doesn't seem to be a lot of training opportunities that are NCO specific, the AU PME courses would be closed to those members and there doesn't seem to be much difference in the PD required, so what is the real motivation to be an NCO? (I know this has been discussed before, but it just seems like the OP's request for info isn't being addressed).
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: kwe1009 on January 09, 2017, 01:41:52 PM
Hmmm, let me re-word my question: Why pick being an NCO over going the officer route? Current NCOs: why did you choose to keep your stripes?

I am not a CAP NCO but I am a USAF SNCO.  The only real difference between being a CAP NCO or officer that I can find is that an NCO can't hold a command position.

Yes the new CAP NCO program allows for promotions but only to a certain degree.  Per CAPR 39-3 there is only 1 MSgt position authorized per squadron so if you have 2 TSgts you can only promote the one filling the "Squadron NCO" position and they have to be in that position for 2 years to permanently keep that rank.  Only 1 SMSgt slot per Group/Wing/Region and only 1 CMSgt position per Wing/Region.  This does not leave a lot of room for promotions.  With the tenure requirements for the SNCO grades, a Wing will only be able to promote someone to CMSgt every 4 years for example.

Hopefully the officer side will follow suit and start limiting promotions as well.  As of right now the PD is the same for officers and NCOs but I believe that is supposed to change in the coming years.

Good info, but I'm not sure it answers the OP actual question: why would someone choose to be a CPA NCO versus a CAP officer? What are the opportunities for a NCO to develop professionally and help in the development of their unit? What are the benefits to being a CAP NCO?

Without going too far indepth, there doesn't seem to be a lot of training opportunities that are NCO specific, the AU PME courses would be closed to those members and there doesn't seem to be much difference in the PD required, so what is the real motivation to be an NCO? (I know this has been discussed before, but it just seems like the OP's request for info isn't being addressed).

I agree.  A lot of people are asking that same questions, including me, and I haven't seen any good answers other than "you get to keep your stripes" which isn't much of a selling point to me.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Ozzy on January 09, 2017, 02:12:43 PM


Good info, but I'm not sure it answers the OP actual question: why would someone choose to be a CPA NCO versus a CAP officer? What are the opportunities for a NCO to develop professionally and help in the development of their unit? What are the benefits to being a CAP NCO?

Without going too far indepth, there doesn't seem to be a lot of training opportunities that are NCO specific, the AU PME courses would be closed to those members and there doesn't seem to be much difference in the PD required, so what is the real motivation to be an NCO? (I know this has been discussed before, but it just seems like the OP's request for info isn't being addressed).

Short answer: As CAP NCO, I would say it gives me another tool in my box to engage cadets with and help them develop as a leader, especially when it comes to developing the different skills of an NCO vs an officer. Cadets may choose to listen to a senior member NCO more then a Major since they have seen a thousand majors in CAP vs one sergeant.

Longer answer: Wait until I get home to type it up on a computer vs a tablet.

As for PME, yes, it is limited by the Air Force. Perhaps eventually CAP can request access to the NCO-equivalent courses once the CAP NCO program becomes more established.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: RogueLeader on January 09, 2017, 02:13:34 PM
After talking to the RMR Chief, you are correct in  that there is not any real difference- at this point.  It is, (and has been for quite some time) in development.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: County on January 09, 2017, 02:17:18 PM
Please allow my answer as to why I submitted the Cap Form to switch from CAP Officer to CAP NCO.

1. As I currently don't have a bachelors degree, nor plan on attaining one, I am ineligible to attend the SOS and Air War College. Looking into the future CAP NCO's might have the option to take the non Resident PME courses for AF SNCO's (I'm speculating but believe this will happen).

2. People do react differently to stripes, whether you believe it or not. I've experienced it. Yes, even in our volunteer capacity.

3. I do not wish to assume a Command billet. Though I have the option to if I ever changed my mind.  This lets people know you are here strictly to keep the machine running, not run the machine.

4. I wish to be on the ground floor of this new program. I also wish to provide my feedback which will help make the CAP NCO program something of worth.

Drawbacks, yes there's a few

1. The ranks are more expensive.

2. People always feel the need to voice their opinion to you about it, as if there way is the only way.
          a. My personal favorite, "Why do you want to be a CAP NCO? Ranks don't matter in CAP anyway!"      Then why are you even talking to me about it.


Just my two cents. Best of luck.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Bayareaflyer 44 on January 09, 2017, 05:59:58 PM
I asked a TSgt in our Group that very same question. He’s a high-speed guy, that does ES as well as CP at both the Sq and Group level.  I truly felt his response was the best I’ve heard.

He said something to the effect of “I want to show our cadets that not every one of the USAF/CAP team is going to be a jet jockey/pilot.  There are other options and plenty of excellent jobs that need to be filled with capable individuals that follow the NCO route.” 

Solid.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on January 09, 2017, 06:39:49 PM
“I want to show our cadets that not every one of the USAF/CAP team is going to be a jet jockey/pilot.  There are other options and plenty of excellent jobs that need to be filled with capable individuals that follow the NCO route.” 

Solid.


I wish our cadet program gave cadets a look at that difference!
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: THRAWN on January 09, 2017, 07:00:52 PM
I asked a TSgt in our Group that very same question. He’s a high-speed guy, that does ES as well as CP at both the Sq and Group level.  I truly felt his response was the best I’ve heard.

He said something to the effect of “I want to show our cadets that not every one of the USAF/CAP team is going to be a jet jockey/pilot.  There are other options and plenty of excellent jobs that need to be filled with capable individuals that follow the NCO route.” 

Solid.

In the past 75 years not sure that this has been an issue.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: lordmonar on January 09, 2017, 11:41:47 PM
Hmmm, let me re-word my question: Why pick being an NCO over going the officer route? Current NCOs: why did you choose to keep your stripes?
I was a CAP Major when I switched over to CAP MSgt.
I'll be honest....one of the major reasons for the switch was just to be different.  (I switched over before the CAP NCO program was expanded).  But the other reason was that I was more comfortable lead my CAP brethren as an NCO instead of an officer.  It what I was trained for in the USAF.
 
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: SWChief on March 05, 2017, 06:42:42 PM
I am a retired Chief Petty Officer.  20 Years Navy Seabees.
I am currently awaiting the approval to go from SM to MSGT.
My reason,  Pretty simple actually,  I worked hard to achieve my anchors and won't give them up easily,  I don't want command.  As a CPO in the navy my job is to train junior troops to give them their full potential and to train junior officers.  I feel I can make a better impact on the organization doing what I do best and was trained to do.
And honestly, no offense to anyone, CAP has WAY too many officers.
It seems that just about anyone can join, do 6 months and be 2nd Louie,  But not anyone can be Non-Com.
I really enjoy the organization and so do my two sons(cadets), (they are kinda what got me into it).
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Eclipse on March 05, 2017, 07:02:06 PM
My reason,  Pretty simple actually,  I worked hard to achieve my anchors and won't give them up easily,  I don't want command.  As a CPO in the navy my job is to train junior troops to give them their full potential and to train junior officers.  I feel I can make a better impact on the organization doing what I do best and was trained to do.

How, exactly, do you believe that will work?

There are neither "junior troops" nor "junior officers" per se, in CAP when you consider that pilots routinely come in
with no military experience and railroad tracks, or are appointed as Unit CCs before their BCGs are done.

What specific abilities will you bring to "training" a Finance Officer in a golf shirt? (Etc.)

This is an honest question many have been asking for a decade+ on this and other forums and
no one has ever provided a real answer that works in a CAP context.

The "too many officers" discussion is already beginning to slowly work itself out with the new expectations
for promotion about Capt, which will suppress the majority of the grades to company level. 

No issue with you retaining your other-service grade, but there's no NCO "program" in CAP.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: SWChief on March 05, 2017, 08:14:09 PM
Eclipse,

How will it work? well, great question.  Junior troops = new cadets, Yes the cadets pretty much take care of that but it doesn't hurt to have someone with military experience.  Junior officers = that brand new 2nd LT that never been in the military.
CAP is essentially a private organization that tries to be military.  If they wanna be military then I am going to make sure that the Military Bearing is in place and kept.
I am not much of a linguist and don't usually put my thoughts into words very well.

I am here for the cadets mostly, I just feel that I can help with their upbringing to be the fine young folks that they can be, and help them into the transition to the real world.  They are our future, I want to see them succeed.

As far as the person in the "Golf Shirt", well, if they want to do it right then I can help them.  If they don't, and CAP doesn't care, probably not much I can do. 
Keep in mind here I am in a Cadet Squadron, So my focus is there.

As far as an NCO program...Well, I still have to pick a specialty track and complete the requirements due to the fact I hold those positions within the Squadron.  I am not trying to be the Next CMSGT of CAP.  Just trying to help out where I can.  In the end, does it matter whats on my sleeve or shoulder?

Also, not trying to stir any pots here folks.  Just my thoughts on the question at hand. :)
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Eclipse on March 05, 2017, 09:11:54 PM
CAP is essentially a private organization that tries to be military.

CAP is a paramilitary organization, just like FDs, & LEAs, there's a distinct difference. Some of the
trappings are there, but there is no organizational attempt to "wannabe military", and those individuals who do are an issue.

As far as the person in the "Golf Shirt", well, if they want to do it right then I can help them.  If they don't, and CAP doesn't care, probably not much I can do. 
They are already doing it "right", and that some might view that they aren't, is a problem, not an opportunity.

In the end, does it matter whats on my sleeve or shoulder?

No...and yet...

I ask honestly because I am interested in the expectation of a new member.  Assertions are made all the time that
military NCOs are better at training cadets, despite any particular skill or experience herding 12 year olds, or that somehow
their innate NCO super powers will "save" CAP, despite no particular experience or skill in a non-profit / volunteer environment,
no particular hands on with ES, AE, or even aviation, staffed mostly by adults with more age and experience, and further the (presumably) thousands of prior service NCOs who are wearing CAP officer grade to no detriment of their capabilities.

I'm also very curious what the reaction to this latest recruiting internal transition plan is by prior-service NCOs.
NCOs have historically stood on moral high ground about CAP officers (you did yourself here to some extent) - "too many",
"not qualified", "don't understand", etc., etc.

Well now that an E5 can rise to SMSgt in the same way (and even an E4 to MSgt), how is that any different?
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: abdsp51 on March 05, 2017, 09:28:34 PM
I had the pleasure of serving with a CAP Chief and ask him some of the very same questions.  I received a much better answer from him than anyone else. 

As follows it was basically broken down that one of the ideas behind the NCO corp is to try and keep the military aspect within CAP.  It has been seen by too many that the officer corp is way to corporate. 

The NCO corp allows for a basis of and maintaining a military concept within the org. 

There is current nothing that a NCO in CAP can do that is currently not being fulfilled by CAP officers.  Especially CAP officers who are either current active duty or retired military NCOs. 

The program is still being worked on but long story short the basis is to keep and maintain a form of military culture residing within the NCO Corp.

Now I may have misunderstood and possible misquote the fine Chief as I had many sidebars with him over the course of the activity.  But the explanation he gave was far more in depth than anything received here or from NHQ. 

SW Chief if you want to do what you claim then you need to learn and adapt to the AF culture and leave the Navyisms at the door.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: PHall on March 05, 2017, 10:00:31 PM
To those who say that CAP NCO's can not be a Squadron Commander, you are mistaken.
The current commander of the Big Bear Composite Squadron 6750, California Wing, CAP is a CMSgt.
National Headquarters approved the Form 27 when he assumed command over six months ago.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: SarDragon on March 05, 2017, 10:06:58 PM
SW Chief if you want to do what you claim then you need to learn and adapt to the AF culture and leave the Navyisms at the door.

Second that.

I joined CAP as a cadet, and then joined the Navy five years later. I had to unlearn AF/CAPisms then, and then try to get rid of the Navyisms when I retired from the Navy. I had concurrent participation for about six years of the twenty I spent in the Navy. Showing up at Navy places in a CAP officer uniform as a Navy enlisted made for some interesting encounters. It all worked out, though.

Regarding the OP, I considered being a CAP NCO a couple of times, but couldn't find any specific advantage for doing so.

Chief, you make some good points, but I think your efforts are a little off the mark. The cadet program, for the most part, is run by the cadets, with SM oversight as needed. If the SMs in your unit are running the show, there's something amiss.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: SWChief on March 05, 2017, 10:16:24 PM
My intention was not to ruffle any feathers here. If I did, I do apologize.  Just simply trying to answer a question the best I can.  As I said, I am not very good at expressing my thoughts on paper, er screen. 
To date I have had the pleasure of meeting many great folks in CAP, all officers and I have much respect for them all.  I never intended to make it appear that I feel I am better then anyone else, Just the opposite,  I think I have a lot to offer,  And yes, I have a lot the learn.

I will just leave this here and be done since its not really going anywhere useful.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Eclipse on March 05, 2017, 10:57:30 PM
I think you're taking the desire for a legit discussion as stepping on toes, you're not, at least with me.

We're in a bubble here and pretty much have our individual camps - I am honestly interested in the
expectations of a new member with no preconceived notions.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Flying Pig on March 06, 2017, 05:46:49 AM
As a CAP NCO, when you interact with outside agencies, be prepared to be asked "Where can I find the person in charge?"   Sorta like when someone comes to the door and asks my kids if their parents are home.    And no, Im not being a smart----.   Fire, Police and EMS may not know what all those stripes are called... but they know leaves and bars out rank stripes.  The fact that you were an E8 in whatever branch you were in means little to nothing when dealing with Public Safety organizations.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: FW on March 06, 2017, 09:10:34 AM
As a CAP NCO, when you interact with outside agencies, be prepared to be asked "Where can I find the person in charge?"   Sorta like when someone comes to the door and asks my kids if their parents are home.    And no, Im not being a smart----.   Fire, Police and EMS may not know what all those stripes are called... but they know leaves and bars out rank stripes.  The fact that you were an E8 in whatever branch you were in means little to nothing when dealing with Public Safety organizations.

I had two senior military NCOs on my staff "back in the day".  Both decided to take the "officer" route, however acted like NCOs in their dealing with cadets, with senior members, the military, and ES agencies.  Both got into trouble, and I had to deal with the mess; especially with one that was a command sergeant major with the PaNG...  IMHO, stripes, bars, oak leaves don't make the member.  Training, and commitment to core values do.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: MSG Mac on March 06, 2017, 11:13:22 AM
When this was first publically announced in 2013/14, I was all for it. But after constantly being told "Full details should be out in 90 days or so (still waiting after three years), I am convinced that CAP doesn't have a plan, but an idea, (fantasy?, dream? hallucination?), without much behind it. National HQ's delaying all new publications, including R20-1, a new R50-17, etc. didn't help in elaborating the duties of the NCO or the training differences between the NCO and Officer programs. Currently the only difference I can see is that the NCO can't be in a Commander, and the insignia costs 2-3 times more than the Officers.   Otherwise the duties are the same.
Questions I would like to have answered"

1. When will the applicable regulations and manuals be published?
2. Is there a plan for eventually requiring all new members to start as Enlisted and go through an Officer course for Commissioning? (had that until the early 60's)
3. Will the Air Force allow NCO's to take the online PD courses for NCO's?
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Eclipse on March 06, 2017, 01:25:54 PM
...Currently the only difference I can see is that the NCO can't be in a Commander...

For a number of years this was included in a reg somewhere, however I can't find it nor can I find an
old version of a reg that was revised.

Was this prohibition removed?  If not, where does it live?  I was all over and 20-1, 20-3, 35-1,35-3 & 35-5
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: lordmonar on March 06, 2017, 01:42:47 PM
1. When will the applicable regulations and manuals be published?
Your guess is as good as mine.

Quote
2. Is there a plan for eventually requiring all new members to start as Enlisted and go through an Officer course for Commissioning? (had that until the early 60's)
As of right now.  No.
Quote
3. Will the Air Force allow NCO's to take the online PD courses for NCO's?
Yes.  The USAF has said that they would allow our NCO's to take the PD courses.   This is tied into the NCO centric CAP PD that is.....still in development.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: THRAWN on March 06, 2017, 01:53:25 PM
1. When will the applicable regulations and manuals be published?
Your guess is as good as mine.

Quote
2. Is there a plan for eventually requiring all new members to start as Enlisted and go through an Officer course for Commissioning? (had that until the early 60's)
As of right now.  No.
Quote
3. Will the Air Force allow NCO's to take the online PD courses for NCO's?
Yes.  The USAF has said that they would allow our NCO's to take the PD courses.   This is tied into the NCO centric CAP PD that is.....still in development.

Thanks for the info!
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: THRAWN on March 06, 2017, 02:06:19 PM
...Currently the only difference I can see is that the NCO can't be in a Commander...

For a number of years this was included in a reg somewhere, however I can't find it nor can I find an
old version of a reg that was revised.

Was this prohibition removed?  If not, where does it live?  I was all over and 20-1, 20-3, 35-1,35-3 & 35-5

Closest thing I see is in 35-5, paragraph 6.4
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Eclipse on March 06, 2017, 04:35:25 PM
...Currently the only difference I can see is that the NCO can't be in a Commander...

For a number of years this was included in a reg somewhere, however I can't find it nor can I find an
old version of a reg that was revised.

Was this prohibition removed?  If not, where does it live?  I was all over and 20-1, 20-3, 35-1,35-3 & 35-5

Closest thing I see is in 35-5, paragraph 6.4

That's the weird thing - I know at some point there was a specific prohibition, but now all I can find is that verbiage about
NCOs coming in and out of the officer grades, which implies the prohibition, but doesn't explicitly say it.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: PHall on March 06, 2017, 09:28:54 PM
...Currently the only difference I can see is that the NCO can't be in a Commander...

For a number of years this was included in a reg somewhere, however I can't find it nor can I find an
old version of a reg that was revised.

Was this prohibition removed?  If not, where does it live?  I was all over and 20-1, 20-3, 35-1,35-3 & 35-5

Closest thing I see is in 35-5, paragraph 6.4

That's the weird thing - I know at some point there was a specific prohibition, but now all I can find is that verbiage about
NCOs coming in and out of the officer grades, which implies the prohibition, but doesn't explicitly say it.

Well like I said above, the current Commander of Sq 6750 in CAWG is a CMSgt. So I guess they can imply it all they want, but they're not acting to stop an NCO from being a Unit Commander.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Eclipse on March 06, 2017, 10:38:40 PM
Well like I said above, the current Commander of Sq 6750 in CAWG is a CMSgt. So I guess they can imply it all they want, but they're not acting to stop an NCO from being a Unit Commander.

It was not "implied", it was a direct statement in a regulation a number of us quoted here and elsewhere, I
just can't find it now.

It's not like it was a secret, your post indicates it was common knowledge since you felt it necessary to
show it was possible.  Expedient operations despite regulations to the contrary isn't exactly anything "new".
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on March 07, 2017, 11:39:46 AM
http://www.capvolunteernow.com/todays-features/?nco_corps_to_gain_prominence_under_new_cap_plan&show=news&newsID=17657 (http://www.capvolunteernow.com/todays-features/?nco_corps_to_gain_prominence_under_new_cap_plan&show=news&newsID=17657)

Quote
In addition, NCOs will be eligible for any CAP position, including pilots, at all organizational levels – squadron, group, wing, region or national – except for those reserved for officers, such as unit commander.


Good read on the first page and on here too: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=18078.0


3.5 years later, and people were right.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Eclipse on March 07, 2017, 11:42:29 AM
Fair enough, but where in an actual regulation is command reserved for Officers?

I know it was in there somewhere, I can't believe no one has dug it out yet from either a current or
revised document.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on March 07, 2017, 11:59:12 AM
Fair enough, but where in an actual regulation is command reserved for Officers?

I know it was in there somewhere, I can't believe no one has dug it out yet from either a current or
revised document.


I can't find it, but it was in the "white paper" as well: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=19311.msg356416#msg356416


Bottom of page 2
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: SarDragon on March 07, 2017, 03:37:39 PM
Fair enough, but where in an actual regulation is command reserved for Officers?

I know it was in there somewhere, I can't believe no one has dug it out yet from either a current or
revised document.

The 35-5 back to Mar 2010 has nothing, and my archives before that are unavailable right now. I'll try to dig them up later today.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: PHall on March 07, 2017, 09:12:17 PM
I think everybody thought that NCO's could not be Commanders. But the regs never said that.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: audiododd on March 08, 2017, 12:22:33 AM
From CAPR 20-1...

D.14.c.  The wing commander appoints group, squadron, and flight commanders.

From CAPR 35-5.... 

3.2. Commander Appointments. Members who meet the minimum eligibility requirements above may be advanced to a grade commensurate with the position, not to exceed those indicated below:

     3.2.4. Squadron Commander. Wing commanders may advance a member to the grade of first lieutenant concurrent with the member’s appointment as squadron commander.

6.4  NCO Transition to Officer Grades. NCOs accepting commander appointments will be eligible to transition to the officer grade commensurate with the commander position as outlined in paragraph 3.2., without meeting a Promotion Board. Upon completion of the command assignment, the member may return to their previous NCO status upon request, without meeting a promotion board. Time-in-grade served in the officer position may be used toward future NCO advancements.

A few notes from my reading....it says that Wing Commanders MAY advance a member to 1st Lt with their appointment.  It doesn't say they WILL.  It also says that NCO's will be eligible to transition to the officer grade, not that they must.  It's the typical vagueness of regulations.

To ME...that reads that NCO's CAN be appointed as a Squadron Commander and that they MAY be promoted to 1st Lt for the duration of their command (but don't HAVE to be promoted).  It also looks like an NCO that assumes command doesn't necessarily have to go back to their NCO grade when they complete their tenure.  That's just my quick skimming of the regulations.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: FW on March 08, 2017, 08:50:02 AM
^ That's how the regulation should be interpreted.  So, basically this is truly just a uniform thread after all.  What you wish to wear on your sleeve or shoulder is up to you....  ;D
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on March 08, 2017, 11:43:19 AM
From CAPR 20-1...

D.14.c.  The wing commander appoints group, squadron, and flight commanders.

From CAPR 35-5.... 

3.2. Commander Appointments. Members who meet the minimum eligibility requirements above may be advanced to a grade commensurate with the position, not to exceed those indicated below:

     3.2.4. Squadron Commander. Wing commanders may advance a member to the grade of first lieutenant concurrent with the member’s appointment as squadron commander.

6.4  NCO Transition to Officer Grades. NCOs accepting commander appointments will be eligible to transition to the officer grade commensurate with the commander position as outlined in paragraph 3.2., without meeting a Promotion Board. Upon completion of the command assignment, the member may return to their previous NCO status upon request, without meeting a promotion board. Time-in-grade served in the officer position may be used toward future NCO advancements.

A few notes from my reading....it says that Wing Commanders MAY advance a member to 1st Lt with their appointment.  It doesn't say they WILL.  It also says that NCO's will be eligible to transition to the officer grade, not that they must.  It's the typical vagueness of regulations.

To ME...that reads that NCO's CAN be appointed as a Squadron Commander and that they MAY be promoted to 1st Lt for the duration of their command (but don't HAVE to be promoted).  It also looks like an NCO that assumes command doesn't necessarily have to go back to their NCO grade when they complete their tenure.  That's just my quick skimming of the regulations.


Nice find, except for the part where the reboot of an active NCO corps specifically said they wouldn't be able to hold that officer position. Not surprising on the reg side, since it's been 3.5 years, and not much progress was made in the program to begin with.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: foo on March 08, 2017, 11:54:51 AM
Striped cadets are routinely put into command positions, so why should the standard be any different for seniors? As someone once justified it to me, "Do you think they can't do the job?"
Title: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Spaceman3750 on March 08, 2017, 12:02:15 PM
Striped cadets are routinely put into command positions, so why should the standard be any different for seniors? As someone once justified it to me, "Do you think they can't do the job?"

Cadet enlisted aren't supposed to be put into "command" positions, but we do it anyways. Not even close to a good comparison.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on March 08, 2017, 12:30:17 PM
Striped cadets are routinely put into command positions, so why should the standard be any different for seniors? As someone once justified it to me, "Do you think they can't do the job?"

Cadet enlisted aren't supposed to be put into "command" positions, but we do it anyways. Not even close to a good comparison.


This, and again, the verbiage of the people behind the whole NCO "reboot".


https://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/P052_015_21F7ACED34F45.pdf


Quote
Tailoring the Challenge This principle of tying leadership skill, rank, and position together is all about providing a tailor-made leadership challenge for each cadet. However, this may result in the squadron needing to keep some staff positions vacant. For example, if the ranking cadet is an airman, their position still should be limited to element leader because we want to match them with a job that is appropriate for their leadership skill and rank – it would be premature to appoint that cadet as cadet commander. If the ranking cadet is a master sergeant, that cadet could serve as flight sergeant or first sergeant, but higher positions like flight commander and cadet commander should remain vacant. By assigning cadets to positions that match their rank and skill, we ensure each cadet has a leadership challenge that is appropriate. Further, by keeping high positions vacant until cadets achieve rank commensurate with the positions, we give the ranking cadet(s) additional challenges to strive towards and a reason to pursue promotions. As the cadets advance in CAP and mature as leaders, they can gradually be promoted into higher positions on the cadet staff.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: kwe1009 on March 08, 2017, 12:31:52 PM
For me it just adds to the confusion of CAP.  If a person want to hold a command position then they should be an officer.  I thought one of the main points for even having a CAP NCO corp was that it was for those former military NCOs who did not want to have command positions. 

As has been stated on this board many times regarding the CAP NCO program, it is a solution in desperate need of a problem to solve.

Striped cadets are routinely put into command positions, so why should the standard be any different for seniors? As someone once justified it to me, "Do you think they can't do the job?"

Cadet enlisted aren't supposed to be put into "command" positions, but we do it anyways. Not even close to a good comparison.

Agreed.  Also you are doing a disservice to that cadet enlisted if you are putting them in roles such as "cadet commander" and "cadet flight commander."  What is their incentive to actually become a cadet officer?  I have seen a C/SSgt with the title of "cadet commander."  There is no need for that and you are putting responsibilities on that cadet that they likely are not ready for. 

Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: foo on March 08, 2017, 12:32:41 PM
Striped cadets are routinely put into command positions, so why should the standard be any different for seniors? As someone once justified it to me, "Do you think they can't do the job?"

Cadet enlisted aren't supposed to be put into "command" positions, but we do it anyways. Not even close to a good comparison.

Senior enlisted aren't supposed to be put into command positions, but we do it anyway. All because mushy language in the regs allows it. It's pretty much the same thing.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Eclipse on March 08, 2017, 01:05:00 PM
Striped cadets are routinely put into command positions, so why should the standard be any different for seniors? As someone once justified it to me, "Do you think they can't do the job?"

Cadet enlisted aren't supposed to be put into "command" positions, but we do it anyways. Not even close to a good comparison.

Senior enlisted aren't supposed to be put into command positions, but we do it anyway. All because mushy language in the regs allows it. It's pretty much the same thing.

That some units do it doesn't make it right or "the same thing".

Those CC's who have read 52-16, 20-1, as well have any experience working with adolescents, don't take the expedient route to staffing.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: kcebnaes on March 08, 2017, 02:38:23 PM
I don't know if anyone has seen this, but here is the program that was sent to (and approved by) the Air Force..
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: FW on March 08, 2017, 03:03:23 PM
Programs started by previous commanders may not have the same priority when the new one takes command. It's a fact of life. OE...where did that go?  NCO PROGRAM? No longer on the radar. I really enjoy the discussion, however I doubt we'll see anything coming from NHQ..
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on March 08, 2017, 03:59:23 PM
For perspective, we should be planning/into phase III now - adding non former military NCOs. Yet I still get questions on just what the difference between NCO and O SMs is, and if the PD is the same.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: RogueLeader on March 08, 2017, 05:47:44 PM
I think everybody thought that NCO's could not be Commanders. But the regs never said that.

Yes, the Regs did.  Now they don't.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: PHall on March 08, 2017, 09:22:11 PM
I think everybody thought that NCO's could not be Commanders. But the regs never said that.

Yes, the Regs did.  Now they don't.

According to Sardragon, he checked his file of old publications and even in 2010 the regs didn't say that.
But he said he would check further back when he can find those files.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Flying Pig on March 09, 2017, 07:39:47 AM
In CAP, what it usually comes down to is the person who says they have time to do it gets the job.  Its not going to matter if you have 3 stripes, 11 stripes or a 1st Lt bar. 
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Ozzy on March 10, 2017, 03:23:23 PM
Curiosity, I saw this on my FB feed... Has any commander on here seen this in their eServices?

https://www.facebook.com/groups/442238282464162/permalink/1388820944472553/

Quote
MEMORANDUM FOR ALL CAP UNIT COMMANDERS:

FROM: CAP/CC and CAP/COMMAND CHIEF SUBJECT: Senior Member Noncommissioned Officer Recruiting Drive

1. The Civil Air Patrol's NonCommissioned Officer (NCO) Program is off and running and we are looking for interested members to join the ranks of the NCO Corps. The CAP NCO Corps is a diverse group of individuals, each bringing unique professional knowledge, skills, and abilities they have attained in their years of military service to our country. They are well suited to mentor CAP's members in the methods and procedures of military organization, leadership and management. The CAP NCO Program is also designed to provide commanders with greater access to the professional military knowledge that the NCO Corps can readily provide.

2. Do you have members in your unit who now hold a CAP Officer grade but previously held an NCO grade in the Armed Forces? If so, this is a chance for those individuals to transition to the NCO Corps and possibly serve in a grade higher than their previous military NCO grade. During the period 1 March 2017 through 28 February 2018, the National Commander has authorized senior members who now hold officer grades to transition to an NCO grade that is commensurate with their CAP experience as well as their military experience. The chart below outlines what grade current CAP officers who held military NCO grades would be able to transition to during this recruiting period. These individuals are not required to meet promotion boards but must submit a CAP Form 2 through channels to receive the appropriate NCO grade...

I haven't seen the rest of the message or the chart. Can anyone care to share?
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: winterg on March 10, 2017, 03:38:44 PM
I can share the full memo when I get home. It was announced at my unit on the 2nd of this month.

Transmitted via my R5 astromech.

Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Ozzy on March 10, 2017, 03:41:42 PM
Thanks... I'm a little curious because I'm a SSgt now and I used to be a 1LT with about a year TIG... depending on the memo, perhaps I can get TSgt and be close to getting MSgt.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: winterg on March 10, 2017, 03:51:14 PM
Thanks... I'm a little curious because I'm a SSgt now and I used to be a 1LT with about a year TIG... depending on the memo, perhaps I can get TSgt and be close to getting MSgt.
Here's the full 23 FEB 17 memo with the advanced promotion requirements.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2CzkgrZ6hyMN1BQX1VMWW9Hczg/view?usp=drivesdk


Transmitted via my R5 astromech.

Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: FW on March 10, 2017, 04:22:18 PM
Well, now there is a promotion mechanism for CAP NCOs.  Has the OP's question been answered, or as it has been previously stated, is this just another uniform thread...?
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: THRAWN on March 10, 2017, 04:38:25 PM
Thanks... I'm a little curious because I'm a SSgt now and I used to be a 1LT with about a year TIG... depending on the memo, perhaps I can get TSgt and be close to getting MSgt.
Here's the full 23 FEB 17 memo with the advanced promotion requirements.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2CzkgrZ6hyMN1BQX1VMWW9Hczg/view?usp=drivesdk


Transmitted via my R5 astromech.

POOF! I could be an E8! Or I could've had a V8...Just like magic...
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: SARDOC on April 05, 2017, 10:04:42 PM
I really still don't see the point of restricting CAP NCO's to Former/Current Military members.  We have members who have no interest in Command or being Wing/Group Staff.  Why can't we use the NCO grades to recognize seniority or other qualifications (Other than PD) like ES and Cadet Programs?
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: lordmonar on April 06, 2017, 12:42:11 PM
I really still don't see the point of restricting CAP NCO's to Former/Current Military members.  We have members who have no interest in Command or being Wing/Group Staff.  Why can't we use the NCO grades to recognize seniority or other qualifications (Other than PD) like ES and Cadet Programs?
Part and Parcel of the long range plan for the NCO corps.

Restricting it to current and former NCOs is just one of the baby steps.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on April 06, 2017, 01:41:23 PM
I really still don't see the point of restricting CAP NCO's to Former/Current Military members.  We have members who have no interest in Command or being Wing/Group Staff.  Why can't we use the NCO grades to recognize seniority or other qualifications (Other than PD) like ES and Cadet Programs?
Part and Parcel of the long range plan for the NCO corps.

Restricting it to current and former NCOs is just one of the baby steps.


I mean...the baby step has been going long enough that some of our cadets who joined the military when the plan was announced could qualify for NCO rank soon...
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Eclipse on April 06, 2017, 01:55:43 PM
The challenge is that the "Problem" for which this is purportedly a "solution" doesn't have a beacon attached
so no one can find it.

A "hasty search" was implemented to try and find it, but by mid afternoon the first day, the one GTL that showed up
had to drive his kid to baseball, and the only aircraft available busted it's 100 hour.

Mission base was shut down with handshakes and songs of "great job, lessons learned", and the rest of the budget was
spent on patches.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: sploding on August 07, 2017, 05:35:21 AM
I had the pleasure of serving with a CAP Chief and ask him some of the very same questions.  I received a much better answer from him than anyone else. 

As follows it was basically broken down that one of the ideas behind the NCO corp is to try and keep the military aspect within CAP.  It has been seen by too many that the officer corp is way to corporate. 

The NCO corp allows for a basis of and maintaining a military concept within the org. 

There is current nothing that a NCO in CAP can do that is currently not being fulfilled by CAP officers.  Especially CAP officers who are either current active duty or retired military NCOs. 

The program is still being worked on but long story short the basis is to keep and maintain a form of military culture residing within the NCO Corp.

Now I may have misunderstood and possible misquote the fine Chief as I had many sidebars with him over the course of the activity.  But the explanation he gave was far more in depth than anything received here or from NHQ. 

SW Chief if you want to do what you claim then you need to learn and adapt to the AF culture and leave the Navyisms at the door.



With all due respect I have no problem with the "navyisms" especially since most CAP officers I've met at every level (wing,region,national) have never served in the military . While I do believe that members of all services should try to coexist in CAP there's nothing wrong with keeping some of the traditions of your service , especially if you've served long enough to get a retirement . Also I believe that a CPO should not be forced to adapt to "Air Force Culture" and abandon some of their own branch's culture by a person who most likely has never spent a day in the Air Force or any military branch for that matter, I have no issue with CAP officers in general but I will admit that if there is one type of person who I find insufferable. It is the senior member who was "too smart" or "too educated" to enlist but "not a good fit" in any branch to become
an officer yet still acts like they are AD Air Force and shove "real Air Force culture" on everyone around them despite all their "culture" being from Air Force meme pages and that one buddy in the ANG who's "never going to join cap so don't even bother trying to find them".
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Adam B on August 07, 2017, 07:21:43 AM
Or, we're part of the "Total Force" and should act like it;  not the Navy, Army, or Marines.

Both valid opinions.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: AlphaSigOU on August 07, 2017, 08:17:17 AM
Call a Air Force CMSgt 'Chief' and he'll be happy; have a sailor call an AF MSgt and SMSgt 'Chief' and the Air Force Chiefs' Mafia takes up arms and cries jihad at the misuse of their hallowed title.

Anyone calling a CPO, SCPO and MCPO 'Petty Officer' will have the Goat Locker issue cutlasses to the Chiefs and start swinging at the besmirching of their hallowed name.

The Army doesn't give a rat's ass... they still call 'em Sergeant or 'Sarnmajor'. But let them call all Army warrant officers 'Chief' and the Goat Locker and the Chief's Mafia  go to the mattresses!

(I keed, I keed!)

Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Eclipse on August 07, 2017, 10:10:48 AM
With all due respect I have no problem with the "navyisms" especially since most CAP officers I've met at every level (wing,region,national) have never served in the military . While I do believe that members of all services should try to coexist in CAP there's nothing wrong with keeping some of the traditions of your service , especially if you've served long enough to get a retirement . Also I believe that a CPO should not be forced to adapt to "Air Force Culture" and abandon some of their own branch's culture by a person who most likely has never spent a day in the Air Force or any military branch for that matter, I have no issue with CAP officers in general but I will admit that if there is one type of person who I find insufferable. It is the senior member who was "too smart" or "too educated" to enlist but "not a good fit" in any branch to become
an officer yet still acts like they are AD Air Force and shove "real Air Force culture" on everyone around them despite all their "culture" being from Air Force meme pages and that one buddy in the ANG who's "never going to join cap so don't even bother trying to find them".

It's CAP culture, good, bad, or otherwise.  The failure to respect that, including how it evolved, is the core of the issue.

Join and sit quietly until you figure out how to log into eServices, what the real role of the CP is, and how to enter a task into OPS Quals.
Being an E-9 or an O-6 has very little intrinsic value if all you can do is correct people on the way you used to do things in an unrelated organization.

This is another area where the military affectation, decoupled from proper and consistent member training and expectations of performance,
hurts CAP way more then any value it brings to the table.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Jester on August 07, 2017, 03:38:39 PM
I had the pleasure of serving with a CAP Chief and ask him some of the very same questions.  I received a much better answer from him than anyone else. 

As follows it was basically broken down that one of the ideas behind the NCO corp is to try and keep the military aspect within CAP.  It has been seen by too many that the officer corp is way to corporate. 

The NCO corp allows for a basis of and maintaining a military concept within the org. 

There is current nothing that a NCO in CAP can do that is currently not being fulfilled by CAP officers.  Especially CAP officers who are either current active duty or retired military NCOs. 

The program is still being worked on but long story short the basis is to keep and maintain a form of military culture residing within the NCO Corp.

Now I may have misunderstood and possible misquote the fine Chief as I had many sidebars with him over the course of the activity.  But the explanation he gave was far more in depth than anything received here or from NHQ. 

SW Chief if you want to do what you claim then you need to learn and adapt to the AF culture and leave the Navyisms at the door.



With all due respect I have no problem with the "navyisms" especially since most CAP officers I've met at every level (wing,region,national) have never served in the military . While I do believe that members of all services should try to coexist in CAP there's nothing wrong with keeping some of the traditions of your service , especially if you've served long enough to get a retirement . Also I believe that a CPO should not be forced to adapt to "Air Force Culture" and abandon some of their own branch's culture by a person who most likely has never spent a day in the Air Force or any military branch for that matter, I have no issue with CAP officers in general but I will admit that if there is one type of person who I find insufferable. It is the senior member who was "too smart" or "too educated" to enlist but "not a good fit" in any branch to become
an officer yet still acts like they are AD Air Force and shove "real Air Force culture" on everyone around them despite all their "culture" being from Air Force meme pages and that one buddy in the ANG who's "never going to join cap so don't even bother trying to find them".

If you prefer the military approach so much, here you go: You're a cadet.  Get back in your lane. 
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: FW on August 07, 2017, 03:58:36 PM

It's CAP culture, good, bad, or otherwise.  The failure to respect that, including how it evolved, is the core of the issue.

Join and sit quietly until you figure out how to log into eServices, what the real role of the CP is, and how to enter a task into OPS Quals.
Being an E-9 or an O-6 has very little intrinsic value if all you can do is correct people on the way you used to do things in an unrelated organization.

This is another area where the military affectation, decoupled from proper and consistent member training and expectations of performance,
hurts CAP way more then any value it brings to the table.

Yes! Can we now get beyond this nonsense and go back to discussion of uniform issues....... >:D
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Alaric on August 07, 2017, 04:00:19 PM
I had the pleasure of serving with a CAP Chief and ask him some of the very same questions.  I received a much better answer from him than anyone else. 

As follows it was basically broken down that one of the ideas behind the NCO corp is to try and keep the military aspect within CAP.  It has been seen by too many that the officer corp is way to corporate. 

The NCO corp allows for a basis of and maintaining a military concept within the org. 

There is current nothing that a NCO in CAP can do that is currently not being fulfilled by CAP officers.  Especially CAP officers who are either current active duty or retired military NCOs. 

The program is still being worked on but long story short the basis is to keep and maintain a form of military culture residing within the NCO Corp.

Now I may have misunderstood and possible misquote the fine Chief as I had many sidebars with him over the course of the activity.  But the explanation he gave was far more in depth than anything received here or from NHQ. 

SW Chief if you want to do what you claim then you need to learn and adapt to the AF culture and leave the Navyisms at the door.



With all due respect I have no problem with the "navyisms" especially since most CAP officers I've met at every level (wing,region,national) have never served in the military . While I do believe that members of all services should try to coexist in CAP there's nothing wrong with keeping some of the traditions of your service , especially if you've served long enough to get a retirement . Also I believe that a CPO should not be forced to adapt to "Air Force Culture" and abandon some of their own branch's culture by a person who most likely has never spent a day in the Air Force or any military branch for that matter, I have no issue with CAP officers in general but I will admit that if there is one type of person who I find insufferable. It is the senior member who was "too smart" or "too educated" to enlist but "not a good fit" in any branch to become
an officer yet still acts like they are AD Air Force and shove "real Air Force culture" on everyone around them despite all their "culture" being from Air Force meme pages and that one buddy in the ANG who's "never going to join cap so don't even bother trying to find them".

Sounds like you'd be happier elsewhere, perhaps you should think about concentrating your efforts with the Sea Cadets
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: SarDragon on August 07, 2017, 04:51:01 PM
With all due respect I have no problem with the "navyisms" especially since most CAP officers I've met at every level (wing,region,national) have never served in the military . While I do believe that members of all services should try to coexist in CAP there's nothing wrong with keeping some of the traditions of your service , especially if you've served long enough to get a retirement . Also I believe that a CPO should not be forced to adapt to "Air Force Culture" and abandon some of their own branch's culture by a person who most likely has never spent a day in the Air Force or any military branch for that matter, I have no issue with CAP officers in general but I will admit that if there is one type of person who I find insufferable. It is the senior member who was "too smart" or "too educated" to enlist but "not a good fit" in any branch to become
an officer yet still acts like they are AD Air Force and shove "real Air Force culture" on everyone around them despite all their "culture" being from Air Force meme pages and that one buddy in the ANG who's "never going to join cap so don't even bother trying to find them".

Oh, boy.

First of all, "With all due respect" isn't usually taken like you might think. It has come to mean that you, in fact, have little respect for who you are talking to. Keep that in mind in the future.

Regarding the Navy vs. AF culture thing, suck it up, buttercup. I spent 48 years living in some form of active duty Navy household, both as a dependent (child and adult), and 21 years of my own active duty. I've also been in CAP almost that long. Yes, there are similarities, but they are mostly different.

When you are doing Navy stuff, you do it all the way. The same goes for CAP. Use the knowledge from each to your benefit in the other program, but maintain the distinction. Telling someone, "We don't do it that way in [the other group]," is an almost instant way to get an adverse label attached to you. Been there, done that. Learn your lesson early. It will benefit you throughout life.

As for the CPO crack up above, that's bovine excrement. Any good CPO, for that matter, senior PO, should have the sense to understand the differences, and adapt to the different rules and culture. There are several Navy folks in my local unit who have no difficulty with shifting modes between USN and CAP. They aren't "abandoning" anything. They fit into the current role, and move along.

Lastly, I find your observations of CAP officers to be flawed. I have seen very few that come anywhere close to what you have described, and most of them have been overage HS students who haven't mastered basic "adulting". Maybe you should brush up on your adulting.
Title: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Storm Chaser on August 09, 2017, 06:41:37 AM
What are some good selling points and benefits to switching to having stripes?

None that I've been able to see other that providing an option for former military NCOs, who don't wish to be CAP officers. There's no real program as of yet other than a way to promote CAP NCOs, which wasn't available in the past.

The greatest limitation is that NCOs can't assume command of a unit. That limits the pool of potential qualified candidates, although CAP will allow an NCO to become an officer and then revert back to his/her previous NCO grade (personally, I'm not crazy about that). The NCO positions currently available are vague and it's up to the commander to define their roles and responsibilities.

In my personal opinion, NCO members who are successful are so because of what they do and not because they're wearing stripes instead of bars or oak leaves. At the end, it's just an option for members, with no extra benefits or responsibilities.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Adam B on August 09, 2017, 09:28:42 AM
It's just another option.
I believe the restriction on command was taken out a while ago, and is no longer the case. There is one position, "Squadron NCO," that is actually specific to NCOs; there aren't any well defined responsibilities, though. 

There just seems to be some kind of thought that having more members wearing stripes will make CAP stronger (but only if there are 4 or more; can't have any pesky airman running about), but without any meaningful difference between Officers and NCOs, the whole idea is a little absurd. I believe that in the long-term, CAP will eventually split the PD program and create separate tracks for each path, one focusing on command and management, the other on more direct leadership. 
Until they do that, it's all a uniform issue.

Lastly, I find your observations of CAP officers to be flawed. I have seen very few that come anywhere close to what you have described, and most of them have been overage HS students who haven't mastered basic "adulting". Maybe you should brush up on your adulting.

"Adulting"

It used to be that an adult acting like a child was unusual, and people would call out the behavior as "childish".
Has acting like a child become such the norm that we actually call out those times that an adult behaves as an adult?

I know it's not your term SarDragon, my wife and her friends use it frequently. It's just always struck me as odd that we now have a term for glimpses of maturity.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: PHall on August 09, 2017, 09:26:14 PM
You guys keep saying that CAP NCO's can't command a unit, but, you might want to tell that to National HQ, PACR and CAWG. Because the current commander of Big Bear Composite Sq 6750 in Big Bear Lake, CA is a CAP CMSgt. And has been for over a year.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Eclipse on August 09, 2017, 10:46:23 PM
You guys keep saying that CAP NCO's can't command a unit, but, you might want to tell that to National HQ, PACR and CAWG. Because the current commander of Big Bear Composite Sq 6750 in Big Bear Lake, CA is a CAP CMSgt. And has been for over a year.

NHQ has been ignoring the bright line prohibition regarding NCOs serving as Commanders basically forever, going
back to the days when the NCO grades didn't even show in eServices.  That there >are< NCOs serving in those
roles doesn't mean they are supposed to be, by policy, regulation or the rhetoric of an NCO's supposed role (in the military or CAP).

The prohibition was reiterated in the 2013 announcements, and still exists in the updated KB articles, though I believe it
was removed from the regulations themselves.

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2013/10/prweb11266960.htm

and

http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2465/~/civil-air-patrol-noncommissioned-officer-corps

and

http://capnhq.custhelp.com/ci/fattach/get/976/0/filename/CAP+NCO+news+release.pdf

"In addition, NCOs will be eligible for any CAP position, including pilots, at all organizational levels – squadron, group, wing, region or national –
except for those reserved for officers, such as unit commander."

also:
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=18078.msg326798#msg326798

Importantly (white paper, page 2):
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=19311.msg356416#msg356416

CAWG doesn't read its own press releases, apparently:
http://cawgcap.org/cawghistory/files/original/9c7967e23ae90aaf8f855aceb4afd881.pdf

The idea that an experienced, competent willing CAP member would be barred from Command because he's an "NCO"
is self-defeating, and unworkable in CAP's current climate of shrinking charters and lack of willing members to serve as such,
however the fact that NHQ ignores it's own self-imposed policies regarding what the duties of an "NCO" should be within CAP
just shows how unworkable the idea is, and how unwilling NHQ is to hold bright lines when faced with no other alternatives.



Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: PHall on August 09, 2017, 11:51:35 PM
You guys keep saying that CAP NCO's can't command a unit, but, you might want to tell that to National HQ, PACR and CAWG. Because the current commander of Big Bear Composite Sq 6750 in Big Bear Lake, CA is a CAP CMSgt. And has been for over a year.

NHQ has been ignoring the bright line prohibition regarding NCOs serving as Commanders basically forever, going
back to the days when the NCO grades didn't even show in eServices.  That there >are< NCOs serving in those
roles doesn't mean they are supposed to be, by policy, regulation or the rhetoric of an NCO's supposed role (in the military or CAP).

The prohibition was reiterated in the 2013 announcements, and still exists in the updated KB articles, though I believe it
was removed from the regulations themselves.

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2013/10/prweb11266960.htm

and

http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2465/~/civil-air-patrol-noncommissioned-officer-corps

and

http://capnhq.custhelp.com/ci/fattach/get/976/0/filename/CAP+NCO+news+release.pdf

"In addition, NCOs will be eligible for any CAP position, including pilots, at all organizational levels – squadron, group, wing, region or national –
except for those reserved for officers, such as unit commander."

also:
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=18078.msg326798#msg326798

Importantly (white paper, page 2):
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=19311.msg356416#msg356416

CAWG doesn't read its own press releases, apparently:
http://cawgcap.org/cawghistory/files/original/9c7967e23ae90aaf8f855aceb4afd881.pdf

The idea that an experienced, competent willing CAP member would be barred from Command because he's an "NCO"
is self-defeating, and unworkable in CAP's current climate of shrinking charters and lack of willing members to serve as such,
however the fact that NHQ ignores it's own self-imposed policies regarding what the duties of an "NCO" should be within CAP
just shows how unworkable the idea is, and how unwilling NHQ is to hold bright lines when faced with no other alternatives.

It's called they needed a new commander and he was the guy who volunteered. Bingo! He's the NCO Commander, or should we call him Superintendent?
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Larry Mangum on August 10, 2017, 09:44:27 AM
CAP has a group of Officers within it, that believes that the way to have better relations with the Air Force is to bring the requirements to be a CAP Officer in alignment with the active military requirements for commissioning. If you do this where do you put those members who are contributing to the program but do not have a four year degree, well.... Maybe you turn them into NCO's or airman.

Not saying I embrace this idea or even think it is a well thought out idea, because I don't. But I do know if is one of the reasons that senior CAP Officers have used as a reason to expand the NCO ranks.

Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Eclipse on August 10, 2017, 11:02:34 AM
It's called they needed a new commander and he was the guy who volunteered. Bingo! He's the NCO Commander, or should we call him Superintendent?

No, you should call him "Sir", when he is appointed to an appropriate grade as a CAP Officer,
or you should not call him at all because he is disqualified to serve as a commander based on his NCO status.

Or alternatively you can just ignore a clear tenant of a program which is going to be the "backbone of CAP" (any day now for 10 years),
and leave whatever credibility it might have had at the door for the sake of convenience.

And the fact that CAP would allow members to jump back and forth between NCO and officer on a whim (at all) while still
portending that CAP NCOs would be the backbone of the organization just points to how meaningless the insignia is
and what a waste of time the conversations are.

Providing an avenue to promote?  Fine, whatever.  A real NCO "program" akin to the military and with the weight
of what being an NCO means?

Nope, Never going to happen.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Eclipse on August 10, 2017, 11:19:13 AM
CAP has a group of Officers within it, that believes that the way to have better relations with the Air Force is to bring the requirements to be a CAP Officer in alignment with the active military requirements for commissioning. If you do this where do you put those members who are contributing to the program but do not have a four year degree, well.... Maybe you turn them into NCO's or airman.

Not saying I embrace this idea or even think it is a well thought out idea, because I don't. But I do know if is one of the reasons that senior CAP Officers have used as a reason to expand the NCO ranks.

And that's the issue, a Group of CAP members who "feels" the org needs NCOs, with zero evidence to back up that assertion, nor any workable
plan that increases mission effectiveness, recruiting, or retention.

I wonder if that phrase ever comes up in meetings any more at "echelons above reality"? "Mission Effectiveness".

I've spent plenty of time looking around the room for help, and one thing that has never come up is "It would all come together
if CAP's grade structure just made more sense..."

What would help relations is members who come to the USAF table and execute their missions Safely, Efficiently, and Effectively
on a consistent basis, and I guarantee you no one in the USAF cares a whit about CAP grade, uniforms, or professional development
beyond being forced to make decisions about it when CAP can't get out of its own way.

They'd be more then happy with a room full of butt-kicking, golf shirt clad members, who can get along for more then
a day without fighting over who gets to make the coffee.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: FW on August 10, 2017, 12:30:42 PM
CAP has a group of Officers within it, that believes that the way to have better relations with the Air Force is to bring the requirements to be a CAP Officer in alignment with the active military requirements for commissioning. If you do this where do you put those members who are contributing to the program but do not have a four year degree, well.... Maybe you turn them into NCO's or airman.

Not saying I embrace this idea or even think it is a well thought out idea, because I don't. But I do know if is one of the reasons that senior CAP Officers have used as a reason to expand the NCO ranks.

Larry, if that is the case, we are doomed!  First, the "Air Force" thinks of us just fine.  Second our problems are mostly self made (like starting a program without a need, then leaving it to rot), and finally, leadership is not paying attention to real needs and finding real solutions.  Thanks to a core of dedicated members throughout the country, CAP survives.

Vent over....

Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: kwe1009 on August 10, 2017, 09:59:03 PM
I am an Air Force SNCO and I am very proud of that fact.  I am a CAP officer and I am proud of that as well.  When I joined CAP I chose the officer route because frankly the NCO program was confusing.  The only difference between a CAP officer and NCO was the ability to get saluted and hold command positions.  I did not want to limit myself so I chose the officer route.  I have yet to hear a good argument to even have a CAP NCO program.  The way it is currently implemented certainly is not a selling point for any need.

The fact that the NCO program is limited to current/former military NCOs makes no sense when a person with zero military experience can join CAP and be an officer and thus in charge of that experienced NCO by virtue of their rank.  I know that a new military LT has no experience either but they at least had 4 years of military training in order to be an officer.  It would honestly make more sense to flip it and make the people with no military experience Airman/NCOs and make the military members officers.  In my Wing there are maybe 6 total CAP NCOs and a ton of current/former military NCOs that are CAP officers with zero desire to be a CAP NCO.  For those that want to be an NCO, that is great and I do not have any issue with that. 

Frankly I think we would just be better off if we got rid of grade altogether except for maybe command positions or adopt the cadet model where you start as an Airman and work your way up through the officer ranks.  CAP can't and shouldn't adopt the military model of how the NCO and Officer corps are divided.  It is a totally different animal.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: SarDragon on August 10, 2017, 11:58:09 PM
[redacted] I know that a new military LT has no experience either but they at least had 4 years of military training in order to be an officer. 

Really? When did the various flavors of OCS go away? These range anywhere from nine (USAF) to seventeen weeks (USCG).
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: LSThiker on August 11, 2017, 12:35:17 AM
[redacted] I know that a new military LT has no experience either but they at least had 4 years of military training in order to be an officer. 

Really? When did the various flavors of OCS go away? These range anywhere from nine (USAF) to seventeen weeks (USCG).

And do not forget the special AMEDD routes with direct commissioning from O-1 to O-4 based on job skill and experience with the 6 week BOLC short course.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: kwe1009 on August 11, 2017, 08:03:41 AM
[redacted] I know that a new military LT has no experience either but they at least had 4 years of military training in order to be an officer. 

Really? When did the various flavors of OCS go away? These range anywhere from nine (USAF) to seventeen weeks (USCG).

OK, so I did not cover every single method of military commissioning.  My bad and that really isn't the point of my post.  The vast majority of military officers do have 4 years of military training.  There are  a small percentage that go the OTS/OCS route.  Those that receive a commission via routes other than OTS/Academy/ROTC have specialized skills that the military needs (medical, law, chaplain, etc) and are generally outside of the general military population (you would see an MD be the squadron CC of a SF squadron for instance).

So my original point remains unchanged which is going with the CAP cadet model for promotions (with different promotion requirements/time lines) makes for sense than segregating NCOs and Officers for CAP.

Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: FW on August 11, 2017, 08:58:54 AM
After reading post after post, thread after thread, and listened to varying opinions on this subject, I still have no reason to think Civil Air Patrol would change with an expansion of the NCO program.
There has been no empirical evidence given showing an increase in recruitment or membership retention.   There has been no evidence given showing an increased effectiveness in mission attainment, or strategic, tactical, and immediate goals made.  There hasn't even been evidence showing Vanguard's increased uniform accessory sales. 

I understand those of us who wish to keep some part of their past military life as an NCO into our "military" structure in CAP. It just doesn't make any sense to keep bringing it up.  It should just fade away; like so many other "solutions without problems".  IMHO, we should be dealing with solutions to real problems.  Like tapping into the vast pool of past commanders.... LOL
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: SMsgt Jung on August 11, 2017, 11:02:55 AM
To those who say that CAP NCO's can not be a Squadron Commander, you are mistaken.
The current commander of the Big Bear Composite Squadron 6750, California Wing, CAP is a CMSgt.
National Headquarters approved the Form 27 when he assumed command over six months ago.

I have contacted national about this, the regs clearly state that only job an NCO can't hold is command, all other positions can be filled by an NCO. Even the leader of a flight until an officer is found to take command of it.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: THRAWN on August 11, 2017, 01:16:45 PM
To those who say that CAP NCO's can not be a Squadron Commander, you are mistaken.
The current commander of the Big Bear Composite Squadron 6750, California Wing, CAP is a CMSgt.
National Headquarters approved the Form 27 when he assumed command over six months ago.

I have contacted national about this, the regs clearly state that only job an NCO can't hold is command, all other positions can be filled by an NCO. Even the leader of a flight until an officer is found to take command of it.

What reg is that found in?
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: dwr2829 on August 11, 2017, 01:42:05 PM
So work with me here for a moment…Where do Civil Air Patrol Officers earn their commission? Wait…they don’t. They are appointed after completing requirements that we all know. With that said, you could say they are Non Commissioned Officers if you accept that certain point of view. So guess what, we’re all NCO’s! Case closed, next topic…. >:D
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: ZigZag911 on August 11, 2017, 05:38:46 PM
To those who say that CAP NCO's can not be a Squadron Commander, you are mistaken.
The current commander of the Big Bear Composite Squadron 6750, California Wing, CAP is a CMSgt.
National Headquarters approved the Form 27 when he assumed command over six months ago.

I have contacted national about this, the regs clearly state that only job an NCO can't hold is command, all other positions can be filled by an NCO. Even the leader of a flight until an officer is found to take command of it.

CAP NCOs are not supposed to be commanders, according to regulations.

As an earliier posted noted, the NCO program has been in formation for many years. There are instances where sitting squadron commanders who are CAP NCOs have been permitted to complete their terms of office.

I believe, going forward, National will reject appointment of an NCO as commander unless there is an officer promotion involved.

Does this make sense, or even matter?  Darned if I know!

As to members flipping back and forth between officer and NCO ranks, that has, actually been the practice more often than most people realize, particularly during the height of WW 1 and 2 (when experienced NCOs were often given reserve or war time commissions). As the forces drew down after the war, it was not uncommon for both officers and NCOs to return to their permanent rank.

Of all the ideas offered here, I think the one that makes the most sense is mirroring the cadet program, so that new members lacking significant military or other related experience start out as airmen and work their way up.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Jester on August 11, 2017, 06:21:31 PM
I'd rather see a one year probation/initiation period, at which time the SMWOG would pick a track: NCO or Officer, with personnel authorizations and CC input also being considered. Each track would then be a 3-6 month PD program, and then appropriate grade would be awarded, SSgt or 2nd Lt.

But part of the appeal for a lot of members is shiny pins in 6 months or less. It's not an ideal motivation but at this point CAP can't be choosy.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: PHall on August 11, 2017, 08:31:08 PM
To those who say that CAP NCO's can not be a Squadron Commander, you are mistaken.
The current commander of the Big Bear Composite Squadron 6750, California Wing, CAP is a CMSgt.
National Headquarters approved the Form 27 when he assumed command over six months ago.

I have contacted national about this, the regs clearly state that only job an NCO can't hold is command, all other positions can be filled by an NCO. Even the leader of a flight until an officer is found to take command of it.

What reg is that found in?

You can not discipline someone for violating regulations that do not exist. So provide the reg you cited when you called National.
And who did you contact at National? The IG to file a complaint or Suzie Parker, who has no "official" authority...
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: THRAWN on August 12, 2017, 10:25:18 AM
To those who say that CAP NCO's can not be a Squadron Commander, you are mistaken.
The current commander of the Big Bear Composite Squadron 6750, California Wing, CAP is a CMSgt.
National Headquarters approved the Form 27 when he assumed command over six months ago.

I have contacted national about this, the regs clearly state that only job an NCO can't hold is command, all other positions can be filled by an NCO. Even the leader of a flight until an officer is found to take command of it.

CAP NCOs are not supposed to be commanders, according to regulations.

As an earliier posted noted, the NCO program has been in formation for many years. There are instances where sitting squadron commanders who are CAP NCOs have been permitted to complete their terms of office.

I believe, going forward, National will reject appointment of an NCO as commander unless there is an officer promotion involved.

Does this make sense, or even matter?  Darned if I know!

As to members flipping back and forth between officer and NCO ranks, that has, actually been the practice more often than most people realize, particularly during the height of WW 1 and 2 (when experienced NCOs were often given reserve or war time commissions). As the forces drew down after the war, it was not uncommon for both officers and NCOs to return to their permanent rank.

Of all the ideas offered here, I think the one that makes the most sense is mirroring the cadet program, so that new members lacking significant military or other related experience start out as airmen and work their way up.

Second time I am asking and to the second person: what reg forbids This? I have a feeling that I am going to keep asking and not get an answer. Usually in cases like this where someone keeps banging the "regulations forbid" drum they are usually full of swamp water.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: THRAWN on August 12, 2017, 10:26:46 AM
To those who say that CAP NCO's can not be a Squadron Commander, you are mistaken.
The current commander of the Big Bear Composite Squadron 6750, California Wing, CAP is a CMSgt.
National Headquarters approved the Form 27 when he assumed command over six months ago.

I have contacted national about this, the regs clearly state that only job an NCO can't hold is command, all other positions can be filled by an NCO. Even the leader of a flight until an officer is found to take command of it.

What reg is that found in?

You can not discipline someone for violating regulations that do not exist. So provide the reg you cited when you called National.
And who did you contact at National? The IG to file a complaint or Suzie Parker, who has no "official" authority...

You replied to the wrong person. I think that this contact with National should start "once upon a time...."
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: PHall on August 12, 2017, 07:51:09 PM
To those who say that CAP NCO's can not be a Squadron Commander, you are mistaken.
The current commander of the Big Bear Composite Squadron 6750, California Wing, CAP is a CMSgt.
National Headquarters approved the Form 27 when he assumed command over six months ago.

I have contacted national about this, the regs clearly state that only job an NCO can't hold is command, all other positions can be filled by an NCO. Even the leader of a flight until an officer is found to take command of it.

What reg is that found in?

You can not discipline someone for violating regulations that do not exist. So provide the reg you cited when you called National.
And who did you contact at National? The IG to file a complaint or Suzie Parker, who has no "official" authority...

You replied to the wrong person. I think that this contact with National should start "once upon a time...."

More like "A long, long time ago in a galaxy far, far away..."
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: kwe1009 on August 12, 2017, 08:39:19 PM
Second time I am asking and to the second person: what reg forbids This? I have a feeling that I am going to keep asking and not get an answer. Usually in cases like this where someone keeps banging the "regulations forbid" drum they are usually full of swamp water.

I remember reading it somewhere that NCOs could be be commanders (actually makes a lot of sense) but I can't find it now.  In my mind, if you want to be a commander then you should be an officer.  That is how it works in the military.

CAPR 35-5 6.4 states that "NCOs accepting commander appointments will be eligible to transition to the officer grade commensurate with the commander position... Upon completion of the command assignment, the member MAY return to their previous NCO status upon request..." 

So 35-5 does not say an NCO must become an officer to accept a command position, only that the can.  If an NCO is selected as a Wing or Region CC they will be promoted to the temporary grade of Colonel per 3.2.1 and 3.2.2.  For Group and Squadron command (3.2.3 and 3.2.4) the advanced grade is a "MAY" not a requirement.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: THRAWN on August 12, 2017, 08:54:48 PM
Second time I am asking and to the second person: what reg forbids This? I have a feeling that I am going to keep asking and not get an answer. Usually in cases like this where someone keeps banging the "regulations forbid" drum they are usually full of swamp water.

I remember reading it somewhere that NCOs could be be commanders (actually makes a lot of sense) but I can't find it now.  In my mind, if you want to be a commander then you should be an officer.  That is how it works in the military.

CAPR 35-5 6.4 states that "NCOs accepting commander appointments will be eligible to transition to the officer grade commensurate with the commander position... Upon completion of the command assignment, the member MAY return to their previous NCO status upon request..." 

So 35-5 does not say an NCO must become an officer to accept a command position, only that the can.  If an NCO is selected as a Wing or Region CC they will be promoted to the temporary grade of Colonel per 3.2.1 and 3.2.2.  For Group and Squadron command (3.2.3 and 3.2.4) the advanced grade is a "MAY" not a requirement.

There are many circumstances where an NCO can be a commander in the RM. But in response to my question, "regulations" have no prohibition against the practice. And Nero fiddles....
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: winterg on August 12, 2017, 09:08:11 PM
The original NCO Corps Implementation Plan dated Oct 17, 2013, section 4.3 stated:
"Duty Positions: NCO's will be eligible to hold any position within CAP, including pilot, except those normally reserved for officers (e.g. Unit Commanders) and will be assigned at any CAP organizational level; Squadron, Group, Wing, Region or National Headquarters. Where possible, assignments will be rank appropriate and consider the member's professional development training, professional military skills and professional and personal goals. CAP Senior NCO's (MSgt, SMSgt, and CMsgt) may be in charge of a unit designated as a flight (if there are no other officers assigned); however, NCO's will not be authorized to command a Squadron, Group, Wing, or Region."

The CAP News release dated Oct 23, 2013 says the same thing:
"In addition, NCOs will be eligible for any CAP position, including pilots, at all organizational levels – squadron, group, wing, region or national – except for those reserved for officers, such as unit commander."

While there is no current regulatory guidance about a CAP NCO unable to be assigned as a unit CC, there was a Draft Input to CAPR 20-1 released to current CAP NCO's earlier this year that uses the exact wording above from the original Implementation Plan.  This draft also includes the suggested wording for the duties of the Staff NCO's at each echelon.  So if we ever see the release of the updated 20-1 that includes the NCO information we will have the answer to this question.  Until then, we are making due with what we have.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: kwe1009 on August 12, 2017, 09:28:57 PM
So to recap this entire thread:

There are no real selling points or benefits to the NCO program as it exists today. 


From my viewpoint it really boils down to if you want to wear your rank on your sleeve or shoulder and that is a personal decision.  Everything else is the same.  Until there are duties that only an NCO can fill, there really is not any point in having these positions. 
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: arajca on August 12, 2017, 10:03:48 PM
IMNSHO:
The whole CAP NCO program as it exists today is nothing but an ego stroking program for current and former military NCOs. It has been said that NCOs are the backbone of the military – and this is absolutely true – the same cannot be said with CAP. CAP does not have the cast system the military does, and adopting it would likely close many units and cause a major drop in membership.
Points:
1. Only current and former military NCOs can be CAP NCOs. As such they are expected to pass on the military knowledge for CAP. Fine, until you start letting non-military personnel be NCOs. Then how do you gain the knowledge? Establish a course for them. Great! But why limit it to NCOs? Why not make it available to ALL senior members?
2. We have no NCO specific duties. Any CAP member can fill any position.
3. Four years on and there is still a statistically insignificant number of CAP NCOs.

The NCO program, as dreamt, was the special project of a former national commander. Once he left the position, the program began to wither. Currently, the reg revision rewrite is being blamed for not making progress on it, but there has not been any guidance regarding it from National since it was unveiled. The program was ramrodded through to prevent other ideas from being considered.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: THRAWN on August 14, 2017, 09:56:49 AM
The original NCO Corps Implementation Plan dated Oct 17, 2013, section 4.3 stated:
"Duty Positions: NCO's will be eligible to hold any position within CAP, including pilot, except those normally reserved for officers (e.g. Unit Commanders) and will be assigned at any CAP organizational level; Squadron, Group, Wing, Region or National Headquarters. Where possible, assignments will be rank appropriate and consider the member's professional development training, professional military skills and professional and personal goals. CAP Senior NCO's (MSgt, SMSgt, and CMsgt) may be in charge of a unit designated as a flight (if there are no other officers assigned); however, NCO's will not be authorized to command a Squadron, Group, Wing, or Region."

The CAP News release dated Oct 23, 2013 says the same thing:
"In addition, NCOs will be eligible for any CAP position, including pilots, at all organizational levels – squadron, group, wing, region or national – except for those reserved for officers, such as unit commander."

While there is no current regulatory guidance about a CAP NCO unable to be assigned as a unit CC, there was a Draft Input to CAPR 20-1 released to current CAP NCO's earlier this year that uses the exact wording above from the original Implementation Plan.  This draft also includes the suggested wording for the duties of the Staff NCO's at each echelon.  So if we ever see the release of the updated 20-1 that includes the NCO information we will have the answer to this question.  Until then, we are making due with what we have.

So this is all based on an "idea paper" that is neither directive nor regulatory. We're also going into the third National Commander since this whole caper took shape, with no end in sight. Got it. Thanks.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: grunt82abn on August 14, 2017, 12:43:38 PM
IMNSHO:
The whole CAP NCO program as it exists today is nothing but an ego stroking program for current and former military NCOs. It has been said that NCOs are the backbone of the military – and this is absolutely true – the same cannot be said with CAP. CAP does not have the cast system the military does, and adopting it would likely close many units and cause a major drop in membership.
Points:
1. Only current and former military NCOs can be CAP NCOs. As such they are expected to pass on the military knowledge for CAP. Fine, until you start letting non-military personnel be NCOs. Then how do you gain the knowledge? Establish a course for them. Great! But why limit it to NCOs? Why not make it available to ALL senior members?
2. We have no NCO specific duties. Any CAP member can fill any position.
3. Four years on and there is still a statistically insignificant number of CAP NCOs.

The NCO program, as dreamt, was the special project of a former national commander. Once he left the position, the program began to wither. Currently, the reg revision rewrite is being blamed for not making progress on it, but there has not been any guidance regarding it from National since it was unveiled. The program was ramrodded through to prevent other ideas from being considered.

So because I'm an NCO, I'm on an ego trip? If anyone is, it's the officer that walks into the room at a meeting and starts chewing out another SM in front of everyone because he thinks his rank actually means something. I have seen more officers in CAP stroke their own egos in CAP because they think they are something they are not. I have never acted the way I would on active duty, have never chewed out someone, or disrespected someone because I thought I had that right because of my rank as an NCO, but I have seen it from plenty of officers. I don't wear stripes because I think I am better than anyone, or it gives me some certain power to treat people like they are beneath me. I chose to be an NCO because I like wearing stripes, it is ascetically pleasing to me! 
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: arajca on August 14, 2017, 12:54:44 PM
IMNSHO:
The whole CAP NCO program as it exists today is nothing but an ego stroking program for current and former military NCOs. It has been said that NCOs are the backbone of the military – and this is absolutely true – the same cannot be said with CAP. CAP does not have the cast system the military does, and adopting it would likely close many units and cause a major drop in membership.
Points:
1. Only current and former military NCOs can be CAP NCOs. As such they are expected to pass on the military knowledge for CAP. Fine, until you start letting non-military personnel be NCOs. Then how do you gain the knowledge? Establish a course for them. Great! But why limit it to NCOs? Why not make it available to ALL senior members?
2. We have no NCO specific duties. Any CAP member can fill any position.
3. Four years on and there is still a statistically insignificant number of CAP NCOs.

The NCO program, as dreamt, was the special project of a former national commander. Once he left the position, the program began to wither. Currently, the reg revision rewrite is being blamed for not making progress on it, but there has not been any guidance regarding it from National since it was unveiled. The program was ramrodded through to prevent other ideas from being considered.

So because I'm an NCO, I'm on an ego trip? If anyone is, it's the officer that walks into the room at a meeting and starts chewing out another SM in front of everyone because he thinks his rank actually means something. I have seen more officers in CAP stroke their own egos in CAP because they think they are something they are not. I have never acted the way I would on active duty, have never chewed out someone, or disrespected someone because I thought I had that right because of my rank as an NCO, but I have seen it from plenty of officers. I don't wear stripes because I think I am better than anyone, or it gives me some certain power to treat people like they are beneath me. I chose to be an NCO because I like wearing stripes, it is ascetically pleasing to me!
I did not say ego TRIP, I said ego STROKING. Different things. And yes, I have seen CAP NCOs come in and start chewing out other CAP members, up to Lt Col, because the officers did not recognize the NCO's inherent superiority. Never mind one of those was a retired NCO, who decided to go the officer route as it fit in with the CAP culture. Also, the CAP MSgt who went around pointing at their stripes telling other CAP members "when  you see these, think Lt Col."

Quote
I chose to be an NCO because I like wearing stripes, it is ascetically pleasing to me!
So, being an NCO make you feel better about yourself. Got it. Ego stroked.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: grunt82abn on August 14, 2017, 01:02:47 PM
IMNSHO:
The whole CAP NCO program as it exists today is nothing but an ego stroking program for current and former military NCOs. It has been said that NCOs are the backbone of the military – and this is absolutely true – the same cannot be said with CAP. CAP does not have the cast system the military does, and adopting it would likely close many units and cause a major drop in membership.
Points:
1. Only current and former military NCOs can be CAP NCOs. As such they are expected to pass on the military knowledge for CAP. Fine, until you start letting non-military personnel be NCOs. Then how do you gain the knowledge? Establish a course for them. Great! But why limit it to NCOs? Why not make it available to ALL senior members?
2. We have no NCO specific duties. Any CAP member can fill any position.
3. Four years on and there is still a statistically insignificant number of CAP NCOs.

The NCO program, as dreamt, was the special project of a former national commander. Once he left the position, the program began to wither. Currently, the reg revision rewrite is being blamed for not making progress on it, but there has not been any guidance regarding it from National since it was unveiled. The program was ramrodded through to prevent other ideas from being considered.

So because I'm an NCO, I'm on an ego trip? If anyone is, it's the officer that walks into the room at a meeting and starts chewing out another SM in front of everyone because he thinks his rank actually means something. I have seen more officers in CAP stroke their own egos in CAP because they think they are something they are not. I have never acted the way I would on active duty, have never chewed out someone, or disrespected someone because I thought I had that right because of my rank as an NCO, but I have seen it from plenty of officers. I don't wear stripes because I think I am better than anyone, or it gives me some certain power to treat people like they are beneath me. I chose to be an NCO because I like wearing stripes, it is ascetically pleasing to me!
I did not say ego TRIP, I said ego STROKING. Different things.

Quote
I chose to be an NCO because I like wearing stripes, it is ascetically pleasing to me!
So, being an NCO make you feel better about yourself. Got it. Ego stroked.
The only thing that makes me feel better about myself is to do what is expected of me, and complete tasks and missions regardless of what rank I wear. They could take away my rank, and it wouldn't matter.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Jester on August 14, 2017, 01:06:21 PM
Wait, what?  Me choosing to wear my earned grade from the parent service of this organization is ego-stroking?  And the handing out of shiny pins at 6 months and the ability to maintain breathing and sending checks isn't?

How about I continue to wear my stripes and do what I do, and the dime-a-dozen officers keep performing at the level of glorified E-3s, and let me do it. They'll get the credit and move along. I'm cool with that because I live for mission accomplishment and taking care of my people, which is NCO business.

The probable outcome if tomorrow all senior members were re-graded into a new structure, aligned with their parent service that put them in grade according to their job, would be a mass exodus of members.  All these cats want to be #TotalForce but when it comes to what they wear, they start waiving their CAP union card because they're too good to be a lowly Airman.

We knowingly took a track that we feel fits us best to make the most contribution to this organization. We pay way more for insignia than the officers we follow. My ego is so stroked right now.

Whatever, dude.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: grunt82abn on August 14, 2017, 01:13:12 PM
Wait, what?  Me choosing to wear my earned grade from the parent service of this organization is ego-stroking?  And the handing out of shiny pins at 6 months and the ability to maintain breathing and sending checks isn't?

How about I continue to wear my stripes and do what I do, and the dime-a-dozen officers keep performing at the level of glorified E-3s, and let me do it. They'll get the credit and move along. I'm cool with that because I live for mission accomplishment and taking care of my people, which is NCO business.

The probable outcome if tomorrow all senior members were re-graded into a new structure, aligned with their parent service that put them in grade according to their job, would be a mass exodus of members.  All these cats want to be #TotalForce but when it comes to what they wear, they start waiving their CAP union card because they're too good to be a lowly Airman.

We knowingly took a track that we feel fits us best to make the most contribution to this organization. We pay way more for insignia than the officers we follow. My ego is so stroked right now.

Whatever, dude.

That is absolutely awesome!
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Eclipse on August 14, 2017, 03:22:01 PM
Wait, what?  Me choosing to wear my earned grade from the parent service of this organization is ego-stroking?  And the handing out of shiny pins at 6 months and the ability to maintain breathing and sending checks isn't?

How about I continue to wear my stripes and do what I do, and the dime-a-dozen officers keep performing at the level of glorified E-3s, and let me do it. They'll get the credit and move along. I'm cool with that because I live for mission accomplishment and taking care of my people, which is NCO business.

The probable outcome if tomorrow all senior members were re-graded into a new structure, aligned with their parent service that put them in grade according to their job, would be a mass exodus of members.  All these cats want to be #TotalForce but when it comes to what they wear, they start waiving their CAP union card because they're too good to be a lowly Airman.

We knowingly took a track that we feel fits us best to make the most contribution to this organization. We pay way more for insignia than the officers we follow. My ego is so stroked right now.

Whatever, dude.

OK, so I don't really disagree with anything here on the mean, however this divisiveness is hardly "Total F..." well anything, and just shows
exactly how much of a problem this idea is, and how it will be unworkable as anything but the current status quo.

...I live for mission accomplishment and taking care of my people, which is NCO business.

NCOs do >NOT< own the market on leadership.

This statement and attitude, however, is the root of the issue.  These humble brags about being "all about the mission and the people" instead of the bling,
as if that was true in both directions, and specific to the person, not the situation.

This "too cool for school" attitude is the actual issue.

I have no doubt you are an outstanding member and contributor to the cause, but that has literally nothing
to do with your grade or NCO vs. officer status and everything to do with what you bring to the table and
how you perform.

Being an Air Force NCO may have brought you those lessons, but there's plenty of other ways to become a
leader, and those who preen and pump with their plummage are as much victims of the lack of CAP leadership and
mentorship as examples of "true" CAP members.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Jester on August 14, 2017, 05:01:18 PM
I'll try to keep this reply as orderly as I can, I don't know how to multi-quote or whatever in tapatalk.

1) it is workable in the long term. It's a proven structure in any successful military/SDF/etc.

2) in a proper organization, NCOs are the market-owners on tactical-level (i.e. Squadron) leadership of individuals and small teams.

3) that's me, "too cool for school", constantly reading applicable content on dealing with adolescents, going to training on my own initiative to learn how to deal with special needs adolescents, etc to deal with my own identified blindspots and shortfalls as it relates to CAP. I don't think I'm the only one who does that kind of stuff but I won't sit here and be labeled as someone who thinks he has all the answers.

4) my contribution has everything to do with me being at the proper grade for the proper level and scope of influence.  A Major doesn't need to be a tactical-level cadet programs officer. He needs to be a CC or on a squadron/group/wing staff. The fact that a Lt Col can work for a 1Lt is out of my span of control. It is what it is, but I own my lane and that's all there is to it.

5) overall, I'm inexplicably tired of putting everything I have into my sector of this organization and my cadets and then see yet another multi-page thread crapping on me and the other 150-200 members who picked a different way to serve, told we're some kind of big problem with CAP, blah blah blah. I'm over it.  I'm here to dig out any shred of knowledge I can put to use. I'll go back to doing that, and the rest of CAPTalk can go back to arguing over what constitutes "medium gray" or whatever the controversy of the day is.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Eclipse on August 14, 2017, 05:26:09 PM
Who's "crapping" on anyone?
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: kwe1009 on August 14, 2017, 08:01:20 PM
I'll try to keep this reply as orderly as I can, I don't know how to multi-quote or whatever in tapatalk.

1) it is workable in the long term. It's a proven structure in any successful military/SDF/etc.

2) in a proper organization, NCOs are the market-owners on tactical-level (i.e. Squadron) leadership of individuals and small teams.

3) that's me, "too cool for school", constantly reading applicable content on dealing with adolescents, going to training on my own initiative to learn how to deal with special needs adolescents, etc to deal with my own identified blindspots and shortfalls as it relates to CAP. I don't think I'm the only one who does that kind of stuff but I won't sit here and be labeled as someone who thinks he has all the answers.

4) my contribution has everything to do with me being at the proper grade for the proper level and scope of influence.  A Major doesn't need to be a tactical-level cadet programs officer. He needs to be a CC or on a squadron/group/wing staff. The fact that a Lt Col can work for a 1Lt is out of my span of control. It is what it is, but I own my lane and that's all there is to it.

5) overall, I'm inexplicably tired of putting everything I have into my sector of this organization and my cadets and then see yet another multi-page thread crapping on me and the other 150-200 members who picked a different way to serve, told we're some kind of big problem with CAP, blah blah blah. I'm over it.  I'm here to dig out any shred of knowledge I can put to use. I'll go back to doing that, and the rest of CAPTalk can go back to arguing over what constitutes "medium gray" or whatever the controversy of the day is.

All good points but I think miss how a military NCO fits into the CAP organization.  As as been stated here numerous times a CAP NCO can hold any duty position within a squadron or group so what is the point of having NCOs in that regard?

As for NCOs in a "proper organization" being the "market-owners on a tactical-level" you are correct when there is a division of responsibilities between officers and NCOs and that is not the case with CAP.

I'm certainly not picking on you or the other hand full of individuals who chose the CAP NCO path, my issue is with the organization and implementation of the NCO program.  I don't think most of the people on this thread are against having NCOs, they are against how the program is being implemented.  It is also a solution desperately searching for a problem.  I know in my Wing there are about 5 CAP NCOs so there are not enough "tactical-level" leaders.  That number is not going to grow much if the program is not viable.

CAP is a volunteer organization with limited funding.  Any program should be reviewed for its value to the organization.  In this case, is the CAP NCO program a value added addition to CAP?  I personally do not see it as a good recruiting tool and I certainly do not see it as a value add to CAP. 

While CAP is the USAF auxiliary and  has adopted a military style command structure, it is not a military organization and it does not have the time or funding to train NCOs and officers like the military does.   You simply can't equate the responsibilities and duties of a CAP NCO with that of a military NCO.  That military NCO has responsibilities that officers do not but a CAP NCO has the exact same responsibilities as a CAP officer holding the same duty position.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: grunt82abn on August 14, 2017, 08:21:44 PM
If we are not a military organization, then why anyone care what I wear on my sleeves or collars? It costs CAP nothing to allow me to wear NCO rank. I paid for it, and the cost to sew it on. I go to the same schools, do the same job, offer my skill sets, wear the same uniforms, I'm just like everyone else, I just put on a different design. If it means nothing, then no one should have a problem with what I choose to wear as long as I meet or exceed the 39-1.

If allowing 200-300 members to wear NCO rank, and that gets them through the door, and allows them to become viable members for CAP, then I guess the recruiting tool worked. We gained members we would have otherwise have gotten.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: 1st Lt Thompson on August 14, 2017, 09:33:10 PM
TSgt Riley,

Looking through the posts, it doesn't appear that anyone really cares what you wear on your shoulders, or if there are CAP NCO's. If it got you in the door, then great, and we're glad to have you, but I don't think it really gets that many people in the door. The CAP NCO program could be a good thing in the long run, if it's given the support it needs, but thus far it hasn't and doesn't look like it will anytime soon. If it works for you, great, but in order for it to work in the long term there needs to be more direction from National on the implementation of the program, which so far there hasn't been.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Fubar on August 14, 2017, 10:51:03 PM
If allowing 200-300 members to wear NCO rank, and that gets them through the door, and allows them to become viable members for CAP, then I guess the recruiting tool worked. We gained members we would have otherwise have gotten.

We gained 200-300 members from tweaking the NCO program?
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: grunt82abn on August 14, 2017, 11:04:31 PM
If allowing 200-300 members to wear NCO rank, and that gets them through the door, and allows them to become viable members for CAP, then I guess the recruiting tool worked. We gained members we would have otherwise have gotten.

We gained 200-300 members from tweaking the NCO program?
I said IF allowing people to wear rank, doesn't mean I quoted an actual number. My point is that if allowing people to wear NCO rank,  and that's what gets them through the door, then to me it's worth it. I suppose your against it, but most are. If people feel the NCO rank isn't worth it, or absolutely despise the rank, draft a plan and send it to NHQ to remove the NCO rank structure. Maybe the new National Commander will listen and take it away to make the majority of CAP SM happy. Because clearly there is some animosity toward NCO's, and I'm not just talking here on CAPTalk


TSGT Sean Riley
IL-042
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: grunt82abn on August 14, 2017, 11:06:06 PM
TSgt Riley,

Looking through the posts, it doesn't appear that anyone really cares what you wear on your shoulders, or if there are CAP NCO's. If it got you in the door, then great, and we're glad to have you, but I don't think it really gets that many people in the door. The CAP NCO program could be a good thing in the long run, if it's given the support it needs, but thus far it hasn't and doesn't look like it will anytime soon. If it works for you, great, but in order for it to work in the long term there needs to be more direction from National on the implementation of the program, which so far there hasn't been.
Great point!


TSGT Sean Riley
IL-042
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: FW on August 15, 2017, 07:41:30 AM
TSgt Riley,

Looking through the posts, it doesn't appear that anyone really cares what you wear on your shoulders, or if there are CAP NCO's. If it got you in the door, then great, and we're glad to have you, but I don't think it really gets that many people in the door. The CAP NCO program could be a good thing in the long run, if it's given the support it needs, but thus far it hasn't and doesn't look like it will anytime soon. If it works for you, great, but in order for it to work in the long term there needs to be more direction from National on the implementation of the program, which so far there hasn't been.
Great point!


TSGT Sean Riley
IL-042

Yes it is, SGT.  Like so many other "ideas", this one has not gained support after birth, and is quietly fading away.  Why? Because it does not truly fit into CAP's real strategic goals.  Wear your stripes proudly, and be an example to your fellow members, however don't expect much to change.  Grade Structure in CAP has evolved over the decades, but the officer/airman divide will never come again.  CAP respects your AF grade by letting you wear it.  Just remember, we have had Military Colonels and Generals join CAP to become CAP Lt COLs, or even stay as SMWOGs!  Enjoy your membership.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: grunt82abn on August 15, 2017, 08:28:56 AM
TSgt Riley,

Looking through the posts, it doesn't appear that anyone really cares what you wear on your shoulders, or if there are CAP NCO's. If it got you in the door, then great, and we're glad to have you, but I don't think it really gets that many people in the door. The CAP NCO program could be a good thing in the long run, if it's given the support it needs, but thus far it hasn't and doesn't look like it will anytime soon. If it works for you, great, but in order for it to work in the long term there needs to be more direction from National on the implementation of the program, which so far there hasn't been.
Great point!


TSGT Sean Riley
IL-042

Yes it is, SGT.  Like so many other "ideas", this one has not gained support after birth, and is quietly fading away.  Why? Because it does not truly fit into CAP's real strategic goals.  Wear your stripes proudly, and be an example to your fellow members, however don't expect much to change.  Grade Structure in CAP has evolved over the decades, but the officer/airman divide will never come again.  CAP respects your AF grade by letting you wear it.  Just remember, we have had Military Colonels and Generals join CAP to become CAP Lt COLs, or even stay as SMWOGs!  Enjoy your membership.
Thanks Boss! Having fun still and enjoy my squadron!



TSGT Sean Riley
IL-042
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: kwe1009 on August 15, 2017, 09:06:26 AM
If we are not a military organization, then why anyone care what I wear on my sleeves or collars? It costs CAP nothing to allow me to wear NCO rank. I paid for it, and the cost to sew it on. I go to the same schools, do the same job, offer my skill sets, wear the same uniforms, I'm just like everyone else, I just put on a different design. If it means nothing, then no one should have a problem with what I choose to wear as long as I meet or exceed the 39-1.

Again you are missing the point.  I don't think anyone cares if you are wearing stripes or not.  The issue is with the program, not the individual so please stop trying to make this about you because it really isn't.

I chose to be a CAP officer for my own reasons and you chose to be a CAP NCO for your own reasons and neither is a wrong choice.

When you say it costs CAP nothing to allow you to wear the rank, that is true but to create, implement and update the NCO program does have a cost to CAP (money, volunteer time, credibility, etc) just like any other program that CAP puts into place.  That cost may be large or small but the point is that the current CAP program is just not a good idea as implemented.  The previous program where you could keep your rank but not get promoted was not much better. 

Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Ozzy on August 15, 2017, 09:12:59 AM
If allowing 200-300 members to wear NCO rank, and that gets them through the door, and allows them to become viable members for CAP, then I guess the recruiting tool worked. We gained members we would have otherwise have gotten.

We gained 200-300 members from tweaking the NCO program?

Current numbers is about 150 senior members in the NCO program currently... and that number does include those who switched from the officer side to the NCO side so the amount of actual people recruited because of the NCO program is actually quite small.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Gunsotsu on August 15, 2017, 12:53:45 PM
Simplest solution:

NCOs act as first level leadership of enlisted personnel.
CAP has no enlisted ranks in it's senior program.

There's absolutely no reason for CAP to have an NCO program outside of (yes) stroking the egos of prior service members. If prior service members (of which I am) are so delicate that they can't stand the notion of wearing the accouterments, then perhaps they should reassess their reasons for participating in the program. 
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: County on August 15, 2017, 01:07:10 PM
Funny that you choose the word, "delicate". 
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: grunt82abn on August 15, 2017, 01:51:15 PM
Funny that you choose the word, "delicate".
Right!


TSGT Sean Riley
IL-042
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Ozzy on August 15, 2017, 03:52:14 PM



There's absolutely no reason for CAP to have an NCO program outside of (yes) stroking the egos of prior service members.

It could be said that there is very little reason to have any grade in CAP at all other then the cadet side, yet we still have it.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Ned on August 15, 2017, 04:49:53 PM
We discuss the NCO role in CAP comparatively often here on CAP-Talk.  We generally kick it around a bit, and then realize that everyone seems to have their own opinions on the subject.  Almost all sincerely held by reasonable leaders.  Often passionately held.

Then we realize that no one ever really changes their opinion, and we just sort of move on to something else.  Usually uniforms or complaining about the national leadership.



But because I haven't participated in this particular thread, let me contribute by noting that NCOs are nothing particularly new in CAP.  They were in our structure during WWII, and we have them today. 

We don't really have an "NCO Program" to attack or defend, anymore than we have an "Officer Program."  We mostly just have hard-working CAP volunteers doing their jobs performing Missions for America.

But, FWIW, I strongly support having NCOs in our structure, and fervently wished we had a bunch more.

Just in the Cadet Program tent, I could put 1200 CAP NCOs to work tomorrow by assigning one or two to each cadet and composite unit to serve as Leadership Officers.  Essentially by definition, NCOs have years of experience mentoring and developing junior leaders in a military environment.  And since every single cadet must develop their followership and  leadership skills initially as an airman and cadet NCO, senior member NCOs could and would provide outstanding and needed support.

(Of course, we have a terrific CP without significant numbers of CAP NCOs, so I can't claim that CAP NCOs are absolutely crucial.) 

But our CP would be measurably better if we had one or two experienced NCOs at each cadet and composite unit.

If  we had a mature CAP senior member enlisted/NCO structure in CP, at the squadron I would expect to see SSgts and Tsgts working more or less directly with the troops; directly monitoring training and mentoring the cadet instructors for things like D & C, and acting as instructors.  I would normally expect senior NCOs (MSgt +) to do things like training schedules, coordinate and rehearse instructors, mentor both the junior NCOs and the cadet staff, conduct CP-related professional development for the senior member side, and also serve in additional duties for the unit as a whole (things like unit First Sergeant, Personnel and Admin NCO, etc.).

At the group, wing, and region level I would expect senior NCOs to work as SMEs in CP.  I would probably see them working on CI and SAV teams, maintaining associated records and providing administrative support, directly coordinating with their counterparts at lower and higher levels, planning CP activities at their level, producing reports and maintaining electronic data, and mentoring and training NCOs at lower echelons.

At things like encampments, NCOs would provide valuable support on the tactical staff, liaisoning with host facilities, as well as serving as  logisticians and administrators. 

And at all levels, NCOs - like all SMs - would be eligible for the dreaded "similar and related duties as required."  8)

(Remember, this is a vision for a mature and self-generating enlisted structure, NOT what we have today.  Today, our NCOs come to us pre-trained in leadership and organizational skills by Uncle Sam and all we have to add are the CAP-specific skills.  This may well change as we continue tweak the program to allow non-prior service CAP NCOs).

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

(And I managed to avoid using the term "ego-stoking.")


Ned Lee
National Cadet Program Manager
Title: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: SMsgt Jung on August 15, 2017, 05:29:35 PM
Wait, what?  Me choosing to wear my earned grade from the parent service of this organization is ego-stroking?  And the handing out of shiny pins at 6 months and the ability to maintain breathing and sending checks isn't?

How about I continue to wear my stripes and do what I do, and the dime-a-dozen officers keep performing at the level of glorified E-3s, and let me do it. They'll get the credit and move along. I'm cool with that because I live for mission accomplishment and taking care of my people, which is NCO business.

The probable outcome if tomorrow all senior members were re-graded into a new structure, aligned with their parent service that put them in grade according to their job, would be a mass exodus of members.  All these cats want to be #TotalForce but when it comes to what they wear, they start waiving their CAP union card because they're too good to be a lowly Airman.

We knowingly took a track that we feel fits us best to make the most contribution to this organization. We pay way more for insignia than the officers we follow. My ego is so stroked right now.

Whatever, dude.
Well stated brother . Can't swing a dead cat at a mission base without hitting a Lt.col


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Eclipse on August 15, 2017, 05:44:47 PM
We discuss the NCO role in CAP comparatively often here on CAP-Talk.  We generally kick it around a bit, and then realize that everyone seems to have their own opinions on the subject.  Almost all sincerely held by reasonable leaders.  Often passionately held.

Then we realize that no one ever really changes their opinion, and we just sort of move on to something else.  Usually uniforms or complaining about the national leadership.



But because I haven't participated in this particular thread, let me contribute by noting that NCOs are nothing particularly new in CAP.  They were in our structure during WWII, and we have them today. 

We don't really have an "NCO Program" to attack or defend, anymore than we have an "Officer Program."  We mostly just have hard-working CAP volunteers doing their jobs performing Missions for America.

But, FWIW, I strongly support having NCOs in our structure, and fervently wished we had a bunch more.

Just in the Cadet Program tent, I could put 1200 CAP NCOs to work tomorrow by assigning one or two to each cadet and composite unit to serve as Leadership Officers.  Essentially by definition, NCOs have years of experience mentoring and developing junior leaders in a military environment.  And since every single cadet must develop their followership and  leadership skills initially as an airman and cadet NCO, senior member NCOs could and would provide outstanding and needed support.

(Of course, we have a terrific CP without significant numbers of CAP NCOs, so I can't claim that CAP NCOs are absolutely crucial.) 

But our CP would be measurably better if we had one or two experienced NCOs at each cadet and composite unit.

If  we had a mature CAP senior member enlisted/NCO structure in CP, at the squadron I would expect to see SSgts and Tsgts working more or less directly with the troops; directly monitoring training and mentoring the cadet instructors for things like D & C, and acting as instructors.  I would normally expect senior NCOs (MSgt +) to do things like training schedules, coordinate and rehearse instructors, mentor both the junior NCOs and the cadet staff, conduct CP-related professional development for the senior member side, and also serve in additional duties for the unit as a whole (things like unit First Sergeant, Personnel and Admin NCO, etc.).

At the group, wing, and region level I would expect senior NCOs to work as SMEs in CP.  I would probably see them working on CI and SAV teams, maintaining associated records and providing administrative support, directly coordinating with their counterparts at lower and higher levels, planning CP activities at their level, producing reports and maintaining electronic data, and mentoring and training NCOs at lower echelons.

At things like encampments, NCOs would provide valuable support on the tactical staff, liaisoning with host facilities, as well as serving as  logisticians and administrators. 

And at all levels, NCOs - like all SMs - would be eligible for the dreaded "similar and related duties as required."  8)

(Remember, this is a vision for a mature and self-generating enlisted structure, NOT what we have today.  Today, our NCOs come to us pre-trained in leadership and organizational skills by Uncle Sam and all we have to add are the CAP-specific skills.  This may well change as we continue tweak the program to allow non-prior service CAP NCOs).

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

(And I managed to avoid using the term "ego-stoking.")


Ned Lee
National Cadet Program Manager

Just word-replace "NCO" with "member".

I would imagine the field would like to know where all these new members are coming from as well. The national leadership insinuated
3 years ago that there were hordes of military NCOs who were chomping at the bit to join CAP, yet where are they?
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: grunt82abn on August 15, 2017, 06:04:40 PM
We discuss the NCO role in CAP comparatively often here on CAP-Talk.  We generally kick it around a bit, and then realize that everyone seems to have their own opinions on the subject.  Almost all sincerely held by reasonable leaders.  Often passionately held.

Then we realize that no one ever really changes their opinion, and we just sort of move on to something else.  Usually uniforms or complaining about the national leadership.



But because I haven't participated in this particular thread, let me contribute by noting that NCOs are nothing particularly new in CAP.  They were in our structure during WWII, and we have them today. 

We don't really have an "NCO Program" to attack or defend, anymore than we have an "Officer Program."  We mostly just have hard-working CAP volunteers doing their jobs performing Missions for America.

But, FWIW, I strongly support having NCOs in our structure, and fervently wished we had a bunch more.

Just in the Cadet Program tent, I could put 1200 CAP NCOs to work tomorrow by assigning one or two to each cadet and composite unit to serve as Leadership Officers.  Essentially by definition, NCOs have years of experience mentoring and developing junior leaders in a military environment.  And since every single cadet must develop their followership and  leadership skills initially as an airman and cadet NCO, senior member NCOs could and would provide outstanding and needed support.

(Of course, we have a terrific CP without significant numbers of CAP NCOs, so I can't claim that CAP NCOs are absolutely crucial.) 

But our CP would be measurably better if we had one or two experienced NCOs at each cadet and composite unit.

If  we had a mature CAP senior member enlisted/NCO structure in CP, at the squadron I would expect to see SSgts and Tsgts working more or less directly with the troops; directly monitoring training and mentoring the cadet instructors for things like D & C, and acting as instructors.  I would normally expect senior NCOs (MSgt +) to do things like training schedules, coordinate and rehearse instructors, mentor both the junior NCOs and the cadet staff, conduct CP-related professional development for the senior member side, and also serve in additional duties for the unit as a whole (things like unit First Sergeant, Personnel and Admin NCO, etc.).

At the group, wing, and region level I would expect senior NCOs to work as SMEs in CP.  I would probably see them working on CI and SAV teams, maintaining associated records and providing administrative support, directly coordinating with their counterparts at lower and higher levels, planning CP activities at their level, producing reports and maintaining electronic data, and mentoring and training NCOs at lower echelons.

At things like encampments, NCOs would provide valuable support on the tactical staff, liaisoning with host facilities, as well as serving as  logisticians and administrators. 

And at all levels, NCOs - like all SMs - would be eligible for the dreaded "similar and related duties as required."  8)

(Remember, this is a vision for a mature and self-generating enlisted structure, NOT what we have today.  Today, our NCOs come to us pre-trained in leadership and organizational skills by Uncle Sam and all we have to add are the CAP-specific skills.  This may well change as we continue tweak the program to allow non-prior service CAP NCOs).

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

(And I managed to avoid using the term "ego-stoking.")


Ned Lee
National Cadet Program Manager
For what it's worth, I like your two cents!


TSGT Sean Riley
IL-042
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: RiverAux on August 16, 2017, 08:22:58 AM
Quote
I would imagine the field would like to know where all these new members are coming from as well. The national leadership insinuated
3 years ago that there were hordes of military NCOs who were chomping at the bit to join CAP, yet where are they?

There actually are more NCOs in CAP than there were when all this started up -- possibly twice or three times as many.  Though when you're starting from almost nothing the actual numbers aren't impressive. 

The "program" has all that it it supposedly needed in that there is a now a path for promotion within the NCO corps.   

So, how is it doing?  Are we getting any members joining specifically for the NCO program or are they folks that were well on their way to joining CAP and becoming officers and after learning about the NCO option went that way?  Are they folks that were officers that switched?  Is NCO retention worse, the same, or better than CAP officers both in the first year after joining and later? 

The one thing we can say for sure is that people are not beating down CAP's doors to join as NCOs.  But, we may learn a little more about the "draw" of the program by looking at the ones we do have.  CAP needs thousands of new members every year just to stay even and it doesn't look like they're coming in for this. 
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: CyBorgII on August 16, 2017, 12:03:45 PM
If I were ever allowed to/had the desire to rejoin CAP, I would want to do it as an NCO, to avoid the officer promotion head games.  If I were still a member and could qualify for it I would have gladly traded my railway tracks for stripes.

Unfortunately I would not qualify as E-5 is the minimum and I just fell short of that in the ANG.

But I think that what CAP is doing now with the new promotion requirements to field grades will bring some honesty to the officer levels as well, by thinning out the field grades.

If, back when I first joined in 1993, I had been told "you will most likely top out at Captain," I could have lived with that, instead of being led to believe that I could wear butterballs/silverballs one day.

The idea of being saluted and called "sir" (which we do not do with one another in the CGAUX, though of course we are required to do so with actual military warrant/commissioned officers) really does not mean anything good, bad or indifferent to me.

I can wear my FSO shoulder boards/gold bars and be quite content with that.  I could have been equally content with wearing stripes.  After all, I did so in the Guard.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: vorteks on August 16, 2017, 12:37:19 PM
Sorry but doesn't the CGAUX have its own forum?
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Jester on August 16, 2017, 12:45:20 PM

But our CP would be measurably better if we had one or two experienced NCOs at each cadet and composite unit.

Ned Lee
National Cadet Program Manager

This is standard practice for JROTC, so I don't understand the heartburn with seeing similar value in the CAP CP.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Jester on August 16, 2017, 12:47:17 PM
Are we getting any members joining specifically for the NCO program
 

*raises hand

Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Jester on August 16, 2017, 12:48:44 PM
Unfortunately I would not qualify as E-5 is the minimum and I just fell short of that in the ANG.



Not that it does you any good personally, but in the event someone finds this in a search: latest guidance is that E-4s from any branch can be appointed to SSgt after completing Level I.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: kwe1009 on August 16, 2017, 12:50:55 PM
Since it is not a question on the membership form, I doubt NHQ is collecting any data about people joining specifically for the NCO program.  It would be nice information to have and would help to tailor recruiting efforts.  As of right now I have seen zero recruiting efforts targeted at NCOs or even the military in general unless it is coming from a local squadron.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: THRAWN on August 16, 2017, 12:58:44 PM
Since it is not a question on the membership form, I doubt NHQ is collecting any data about people joining specifically for the NCO program.  It would be nice information to have and would help to tailor recruiting efforts.  As of right now I have seen zero recruiting efforts targeted at NCOs or even the military in general unless it is coming from a local squadron.

Wings aren't involved in outprocessing or retirements anymore? That's a shame. Lots of potential recruits walking out those doors.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: winterg on August 16, 2017, 01:10:02 PM
There isn't any active recruiting on an organizational scale becaue there is nothing to recruit them to yet. Yes, CAP released a new element to the senior program that was not fully developed. But that should hardly surprise anyone. It's kind of our mielieu. But that being said, they did put something in place which indicates that they will be moving forward. When that would be, I don't know.  But I have faith it will sometime. Until then, at least those of us who have chosen the NCO track are accruing TIG. 

For everyone saying the NCO program brings nothing to the organization, you're a bit premature. We don't know if the program will solve any problems or create more. Because we Don't know what they program is yet.  National has a working group headed by Chief Eldridge, the CAP Command Chief, and I have every confidence they are working on it to bring something positive to CAP.

As for an NCO program being a solution without a problem:
Problem: Ranks in CAP do not reflect authority. Officers should be the commanders and leadership of the organization that set the strategic goals.
Solution: Most members working at the unit level accomplishing the tactical goals that make up the strategic ones should be enlisted billets.
While that is a vast over simplication, it is an issue (whether it is a problem or not?) that has been discussed here numerous times.

The new promotion criteria for NCO, as many have noriced, is based on the position a person holds. If you want to make MSgt, you need to step up and work as a Squadron NCO.  Want to make SMsgt? You need to start taking positions outside the squadron. I don't see this as a negative. Why not expand it and apply it to officers? Want to be a Captain? You have serve as a squadron commander. Want to make Major? Better start looking for that Group CC job.

My point is, all the complaining in the world about the NCO program as of right now is useless because we have so little to go on with no idea how it will actually work.  Instead, the combined experience here could probably come up with some pretty inventive ways to utilize an NCO program to the benefit of CAP.

Pardon any typos. My phone is being wonky. 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: THRAWN on August 16, 2017, 01:28:18 PM
For everyone saying the NCO program brings nothing to the organization, you're a bit premature. We don't know if the program will solve any problems or create more. Because we Don't know what they program is yet.  National has a working group headed by Chief Eldridge, the CAP Command Chief, and I have every confidence they are working on it to bring something positive to CAP.

It's been 4 YEARS

How much more time is needed to decide what the program will be? I've said it before, but very soon, the THIRD National Commander will have this on their desk. Saying "they are working on it", isn't very promising.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: winterg on August 16, 2017, 01:32:54 PM
For everyone saying the NCO program brings nothing to the organization, you're a bit premature. We don't know if the program will solve any problems or create more. Because we Don't know what they program is yet.  National has a working group headed by Chief Eldridge, the CAP Command Chief, and I have every confidence they are working on it to bring something positive to CAP.

It's been 4 YEARS

How much more time is needed to decide what the program will be? I've said it before, but very soon, the THIRD National Commander will have this on their desk. Saying "they are working on it", isn't very promising.
I'm not disagreeing with you, Thrawn. :) Going off of the original timetable when it was announced, we should probably be in phase 8 or something.  But, really, wouldn't more people have been shocked into cardiac arrest of it all happened on time?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: wacapgh on August 16, 2017, 03:01:47 PM
The new promotion criteria for NCO, as many have noriced, is based on the position a person holds. If you want to make MSgt, you need to step up and work as a Squadron NCO.  Want to make SMsgt? You need to start taking positions outside the squadron. I don't see this as a negative. Why not expand it and apply it to officers? Want to be a Captain? You have serve as a squadron commander. Want to make Major? Better start looking for that Group CC job.

Which would bring us back to how it was up through the 1970's, and maybe a bit into the 1980's.

Promotion was not tied to PD advancement, so few members progressed in PD. To get more participation in PD, grade was decoupled from position and tied solely to PD and TIG. Fast forward 40 years "We need to make grade tied to position, not PD."

 ???
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on August 16, 2017, 03:39:51 PM
The new promotion criteria for NCO, as many have noriced, is based on the position a person holds. If you want to make MSgt, you need to step up and work as a Squadron NCO.  Want to make SMsgt? You need to start taking positions outside the squadron. I don't see this as a negative. Why not expand it and apply it to officers? Want to be a Captain? You have serve as a squadron commander. Want to make Major? Better start looking for that Group CC job.

Which would bring us back to how it was up through the 1970's, and maybe a bit into the 1980's.

Promotion was not tied to PD advancement, so few members progressed in PD. To get more participation in PD, grade was decoupled from position and tied solely to PD and TIG. Fast forward 40 years "We need to make grade tied to position, not PD."

 ???


I pursued PD for the promotion eligibility. But to be honest, little of benefit was learned in most of it. We need to revamp our PD, and change the stupid names we use. SLS/CLC being the primary offenders. By no means am I the smartest person in the room, but even in my early/mid 20s those two were of little actual benefit, and one rehashed the other. The best course? TLC. But perhaps it's because it's mostly based on discussion, sharing ideas and solutions and the name matches the material.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Alaric on August 16, 2017, 04:13:23 PM
The new promotion criteria for NCO, as many have noriced, is based on the position a person holds. If you want to make MSgt, you need to step up and work as a Squadron NCO.  Want to make SMsgt? You need to start taking positions outside the squadron. I don't see this as a negative. Why not expand it and apply it to officers? Want to be a Captain? You have serve as a squadron commander. Want to make Major? Better start looking for that Group CC job.

Which would bring us back to how it was up through the 1970's, and maybe a bit into the 1980's.

Promotion was not tied to PD advancement, so few members progressed in PD. To get more participation in PD, grade was decoupled from position and tied solely to PD and TIG. Fast forward 40 years "We need to make grade tied to position, not PD."

 ???


I pursued PD for the promotion eligibility. But to be honest, little of benefit was learned in most of it. We need to revamp our PD, and change the stupid names we use. SLS/CLC being the primary offenders. By no means am I the smartest person in the room, but even in my early/mid 20s those two were of little actual benefit, and one rehashed the other. The best course? TLC. But perhaps it's because it's mostly based on discussion, sharing ideas and solutions and the name matches the material.

I don't disagree that there needs to be a PD revamp, but I found SLS very useful perhaps because I took it 3 months after joining and I had never been a cadet before.  Same with CLC which I took not too long afterwards.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: FW on August 16, 2017, 04:19:56 PM

But our CP would be measurably better if we had one or two experienced NCOs at each cadet and composite unit.

Ned Lee
National Cadet Program Manager

This is standard practice for JROTC, so I don't understand the heartburn with seeing similar value in the CAP CP.

JROTC instructors are retired military Officers and NCO's.  They are also part time PAID faculty of the school they are assigned to. If the Air Force ever wants to pay retired NCO's to augment CAP squadrons..... Let's say I would love to see that, however it would not be part of the CAP "system". 
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Ned on August 16, 2017, 04:33:35 PM

JROTC instructors are retired military Officers and NCO's.  They are also part time PAID faculty of the school they are assigned to. If the Air Force ever wants to pay retired NCO's to augment CAP squadrons..... Let's say I would love to see that.

"From your lips to God's ears . . ."

Ned Lee
Retired Military Officer Available for Paid Work with CAP

 8)
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: abdsp51 on August 16, 2017, 08:50:18 PM
We really need to quit comparing apples to oranges and bananas.  At the end of the day we have an NCO program that there is no clear cut job descriptions or even real expectations of what a CAP NCO is suppose to do.  The more these threads appear the more I shake my head.  Honestly NHQ needs to better define this with legit and realistic expectations and duty descriptions, then we can talk about the differences etc. And really lets can all this talk about strategic, tactical leadership etc and get something defined before the chest thumping starts.

Questions I have posed that still remain unanswered:

What is the purpose of this?  (make CAP better or what other drivel doesn't cut it)

What can a "CAP NCO" do that is currently not being done by CAP officers especially those officers who are NCOs?

In the end run I see this as a product of the good idea fairy that was has been poorly executed and your end result is the lack of buy in and support. 
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: lordmonar on August 17, 2017, 01:54:31 AM
For everyone saying the NCO program brings nothing to the organization, you're a bit premature. We don't know if the program will solve any problems or create more. Because we Don't know what they program is yet.  National has a working group headed by Chief Eldridge, the CAP Command Chief, and I have every confidence they are working on it to bring something positive to CAP.

It's been 4 YEARS

How much more time is needed to decide what the program will be? I've said it before, but very soon, the THIRD National Commander will have this on their desk. Saying "they are working on it", isn't very promising.
So?  We are working on it.  We got lots and lots of changes approved and ready to roll out to the rank and file.   Most of them are jammed up in the regulation re-writes.   How long has that been going on?   CAP is slow.   It always has been.   Nothing new here and it is not about to change.

Bottom line is......We are moving forward on the CAP NCO program.   Information will be provided when it is appropriate.

Believe it or not....we actually like your feed back...and we are taking it into consideration.    But other then the standard "I don't see the need" mantra repeated over and over again.....I have not seen any new arguments of why we should NOT have an NCO corps.

That it is taking so long is very frustrating.   Believe me we on the NCO committee feel your pain.  But CAP is what it is and we have wait for the gear to move at their own pace.

Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Mitchell 1969 on August 17, 2017, 02:29:11 AM

Believe it or not....we actually like your feed back...and we are taking it into consideration.    But other then the standard "I don't see the need" mantra repeated over and over again.....I have not seen any new arguments of why we should NOT have an NCO corps.

Let's say for a second that a need is seen. Let's also say that I don't try to make an argument as to WHY CAP should not have an NCO corps.

Instead, what if I say that I don't see HOW there can be a CAP NCO corps as I have heard some of the. visionaries describe it?

The vision that Ned described a few posts earlier sounds great. But where is the spigot which sends forth  those NCOs?

CAP already has a means for them to join. But, crank up the recruitment effort,  maybe bring in a few more. Then what? How many military NCOs have a burning desire to mentor cadets? We can say that they have skills and experience, but, desire and interest? What if they want to fly and aren't particularly interested in cadets? Or, what if they are experienced MTIs/Drill sergeants etc. What makes us think they want to volunteer to do for free what they get paid (or used to get paid) to do? Or, what if their NCO career was spent in fiscal operations? How many NCOs does CAP  need at a Squadron or group to process reimbursement forms?

The vision, with 1-2 NCOs per unit, plus people at higher HAs, plus turnover, calls for thousands of military NCOS. The reality will be more like hundreds. If it is opened to people without military NCO experience, then slots could certainly be filled and CAP could say "Look, NCOs in every unit, leadership, mentors, backbone, stripes ...," but they won't really be the NCOs as envisioned, will they? Because there will be no way to turn an off-the-street volunteer into an experienced  NCO mentor backed by 12-20-30 years of military NCO experience and wisdom. The end result will be a CAP volunteer with stripes. That is t to say that person has no worth, but it doesn't give any change from today's reality.

So, not asking what's the point, I'm asking how can it actually be delivered? Where will CAP find all of the NCOs, real NCOs,  weder to staff units with the real NCOs that are in the vision?
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: lordmonar on August 17, 2017, 05:48:19 AM
We find them the same place where we find all CAP members.

As for turning an off the street person into and NCO....sure we can.  We are working on that right now with the NCO specific PD courses. 

As for any change from today's reality.....you are right.  It is still some non-veteran wearing a uniform and a rank that he/she did not "earn" in the military doing the good work that CAP members do today. 





Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: CS on August 17, 2017, 08:11:57 AM
We seem to spend a lot of time and effort on this, while ignoring the majority of potential members. By failing to recognize "professional" training and education in the real world of industry.  We have many highly trained Corporate Leaders, who never get their "professional " education or "experience" recognized by CAP.  Let's face it the majority of what we do is CORPORATE, as are the majority of our members.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Adam B on August 17, 2017, 02:42:00 PM
The problem I have with the current NCO worshiping is that being a military NCO doesn't actually make you more qualified to administer the cadet program, and all of the "for" arguments seem to revolve around the CP aspect. There's some idea that they received elite military training in supervising gaggles of 14 year old kids. Our cadets are generally quite mature, I'll give them that, but adult soldiers, they are not. Atop that, we have all of our own regulations: uniforms, CP, PD, logistics, operations, etc. Understanding the UCMJ, FM3-06, or NAVPERS 15665I, isn't going to apply directly to CAP any more than it would if you joined the local Fire Department.
If there's anyone who should get recognition for their relevant experience, it's probably teachers and business professionals, like CS said.   

I've got nothing against folks wearing stripes, but if you believe that a set of stripes makes you some kind of CAP elite special forces, you are mistaken. The member with the "unearned" Lt Col insignia is still your superior for a reason.

And what happens once they open the NCO grades to every new member? Then they'll complain that the NCO grades are too watered down, just like the officer grades are now. What's next Warrant Officers?

Are stripes just the new berets?
Is this really just a uniform issue?

Probably, yes.
At least for now.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: arajca on August 17, 2017, 03:19:42 PM
And what happens once they open the NCO grades to every new member? Then they'll complain that the NCO grades are too watered down, just like the officer grades are now. What's next Warrant Officers?

Actually, they canned a WO program suggestion in favor of the NCO program dream.

IMO, a Warrant Officer program make more sense than an NCO program, but, I'm just a lowly member with an 'unearned' Lt Col grade. What do I know?
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Gunsotsu on August 17, 2017, 08:31:28 PM
And still, in eight pages of responses, I've yet to see one compelling reason to even have an NCO grade program for senior members. When it comes down to brass tacks, it's dangling carrots for members (current or potential) that somehow still haven't grasped the concept that the bars or leaves on one's collar are a meaningless affectation, and shouldn't be taken at all seriously. 

I do like the earlier suggestion of just getting rid of the grades for senior members all together. Even if it was just in jest. Bag on them as we must, but at least that's one thing the CGAux gets right. Let our cadets (rightfully) worry about stripes, circles, or diamonds, and just let us do our jobs.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: ZigZag911 on August 18, 2017, 01:29:41 AM
We have been hearing for years that an NCO program is "under development", but have yet to see any results.

Neither has there been any transparency whatsoever.

Is there a draft under review?

Will comments be solicited from command echelons or from the field before it is set in stone?

Finally, I have to comment on one response we've seen repeatedly -- that, even though many question the purpose of a CAP NCO corps, it is coming, end of discussion.

Nevertheless, there has been no clear presentation regarding aims, purposes or benefits.

I have nothing but respect for the professional NCOs of America's uniformed services. If CAP has an NCO corps, as we've been doing for some years, simply to make actual military NCOs feel welcome and comfortable as CAP members, fine, by all means, continue.

If there is some benefit to having a more fully developed CAP NCO program, that's fine, too...but the secrecy, lack of explanation and absence of clear purpose (as distinct from CAP officers) is getting ridiculous.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: kwe1009 on August 18, 2017, 08:16:18 AM
We have been hearing for years that an NCO program is "under development", but have yet to see any results.

Neither has there been any transparency whatsoever.

Is there a draft under review?

Will comments be solicited from command echelons or from the field before it is set in stone?

Finally, I have to comment on one response we've seen repeatedly -- that, even though many question the purpose of a CAP NCO corps, it is coming, end of discussion.

Nevertheless, there has been no clear presentation regarding aims, purposes or benefits.

I have nothing but respect for the professional NCOs of America's uniformed services. If CAP has an NCO corps, as we've been doing for some years, simply to make actual military NCOs feel welcome and comfortable as CAP members, fine, by all means, continue.

If there is some benefit to having a more fully developed CAP NCO program, that's fine, too...but the secrecy, lack of explanation and absence of clear purpose (as distinct from CAP officers) is getting ridiculous.

These are all very valid points.  How were the super secret group of people putting this plan together selected?  There are a great number of current/former NCO serving as CAP officers.  Did a call go out to them to help put this program together?  I don't remember seeing any announcement.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Fubar on August 18, 2017, 05:02:37 PM
These are all very valid points.  How were the super secret group of people putting this plan together selected?  There are a great number of current/former NCO serving as CAP officers.  Did a call go out to them to help put this program together?  I don't remember seeing any announcement.

First rule of the super secret NCO club is you don't talk about the super secret NCO club.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: grunt82abn on August 18, 2017, 06:00:15 PM
These are all very valid points.  How were the super secret group of people putting this plan together selected?  There are a great number of current/former NCO serving as CAP officers.  Did a call go out to them to help put this program together?  I don't remember seeing any announcement.

First rule of the super secret NCO club is you don't talk about the super secret NCO club.
The second rule of the super secret NCO club is: you do not talk about Super Secret NCO club!


TSGT Sean Riley
IL-042
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Mitchell 1969 on August 18, 2017, 07:20:25 PM
We have been hearing for years that an NCO program is "under development", but have yet to see any results.

Neither has there been any transparency whatsoever.

Is there a draft under review?

Will comments be solicited from command echelons or from the field before it is set in stone?

Finally, I have to comment on one response we've seen repeatedly -- that, even though many question the purpose of a CAP NCO corps, it is coming, end of discussion.

Nevertheless, there has been no clear presentation regarding aims, purposes or benefits.

I have nothing but respect for the professional NCOs of America's uniformed services. If CAP has an NCO corps, as we've been doing for some years, simply to make actual military NCOs feel welcome and comfortable as CAP members, fine, by all means, continue.

If there is some benefit to having a more fully developed CAP NCO program, that's fine, too...but the secrecy, lack of explanation and absence of clear purpose (as distinct from CAP officers) is getting ridiculous.

These are all very valid points.  How were the super secret group of people putting this plan together selected?  There are a great number of current/former NCO serving as CAP officers.  Did a call go out to them to help put this program together?  I don't remember seeing any announcement.

I would hope that the "secret let's do NCO" group would include at least a couple of reps from the "I'm not convinced, but I'm an honest guy and willing to give it a fair shake" contingent, if only for balance and to validate suppositions - or ask for further justication.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: jeders on August 21, 2017, 11:36:52 AM
What I find truly interesting is that we're all here arguing about whether or not CAP needs to add a real NCO program at the same time that there is at least one Air Force officer arguing for eliminating all rank in the military. It's almost as if someone thinks that an artificial divide between Os and Es is unnecessary in today's world.

https://www.airforcetimes.com/opinion/commentary/2017/08/20/commentary-the-rank-structure-is-holding-us-back-its-time-for-drastic-change/
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: ZigZag911 on August 22, 2017, 01:07:30 AM
The 'let's get rid of rank' approach has been tried before, generally did not work out well.

One notable example was Mao's Road Army during the early stages of WW2, when it was basically still just Japan vs. China (which was busy fighting its own civil war, Communists vs. Nationalists).

Of course we know that Communist China to this day is a society without either class or rank among its populace  (yeah sure!)

A US Marine reserve officer, Evans Carlson, was a neutral US observer during this conflict, prior to war breaking out in Europe and our entry after Pearl Harbor.

He was so impressed with what he saw, he tried a modified version in the Marine Raider battalion he commanded for awhile. It made everyone, enlisted and officer alike, uncomfortable.

Possibly some changes would be beneficial. I'm not certain what those might be, but it's certainly worth consideration. For instance, does the Army need lieutenant colonels commanding finance "battalions" of 40 people??

Does the Air Force need so many rated commissioned officers? They're not all slated for wing or higher command. Many, in fact, want to remain in their pilot or aircrew position throughout their careers. Wouldn't it be more economical to slot many rated positions as warrant officer slots, as the Army does with helicopter pilots? Perhaps Navy & USMC should do the same.

Bottom line: human beings are hierarchical and territorial. So you may modernize the system, but you're not going to change human nature.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: CyBorgII on August 22, 2017, 06:42:18 PM
Wouldn't it be more economical to slot many rated positions as warrant officer slots, as the Army does with helicopter pilots? Perhaps Navy & USMC should do the same.

The Navy did so for a while, under a programme called "Warrant Officer-to-Pilot."  Inexplicably, though, they did not continue it, nor did any of these warrants fly F/A-18's; they were restricted to rotary-wing, patrol and Electronic Attack.

http://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=22072

I never understood the Air Force's (or CAP's) aversion to warrant officers.

The Coast Guard does quite well with them, as does the Army (I have no experience with USMC WO's).  The Army's aviation warrant slots are the only way I know that someone without a college degree can come in off the street without a four-year degree and earn officer status.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Flying Pig on August 23, 2017, 09:42:32 AM
Marine Warrant Officers are a completely different animal than the other branches.  In the Marines you have to have 12 years in service and be an E6 to even apply.  There is also a considerable pay difference between a W1 and a 2nd Lt. There is also about a $1000 a month base pay difference between W1 and 2Lt.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Adam B on August 23, 2017, 09:45:26 AM
Another issue with the current program...

I've been waiting (so far) three weeks for a member's promotion to SSgt.
Why can't this be handled in eServices like officer grades? I mean, I could have promoted him to 2d Lt in an instant, but SSgt takes a month? If we're trying to attract people to this program, this isn't the way to do it.

While we're talking about a oddly restrictive grade structure and it's lack of support in Eservices...

"Flight Officer" grades, anyone?
That's a FAR more confusing decision then the NCO program.
While we're all debating the merits of NCOs, the FO grades are hiding in the corner of the room, hoping no one notices them.
What's the purpose of having SMs that are younger than some cadets? Some kind of Brittney Spears syndrome (I'm not a cadet, not yet a Senior Member)?
Not only do the candy-striped Lt bars not exist anywhere in USAF, but having cadets overlap with seniors just seems to cause issues. Plus, as far as Nationals knows, they're all just SM w/o grade, anyway.

But I digress.
Why can't I submit NCO grades through eServices?
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Eclipse on August 23, 2017, 09:50:06 AM
Why can't I submit NCO grades through eServices?

Because they are still "special appointments" - you can promote a new member who is "flags green"
through eServices because the criteria is all CAP-internal and objective, however since
appoint someone as a CAP-NCO requires external substantiation be reviewed, this is a manual process.

No different then any other "special", "mission skills", or other appointment based on outside criteria.

You can't make a CFI, nor a military O-3, a Captain through the promotion module, either.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: kwe1009 on August 23, 2017, 10:09:46 AM
Why can't I submit NCO grades through eServices?

Because they are still "special appointments" - you can promote a new member who is "flags green"
through eServices because the criteria is all CAP-internal and objective, however since
appoint someone as a CAP-NCO requires external substantiation be reviewed, this is a manual process.

No different then any other "special", "mission skills", or other appointment based on outside criteria.

You can't make a CFI, nor a military O-3, a Captain through the promotion module, either.

From what I can see eServices is not set up in any way for NCO promotions.  I have a CAP MSgt and eServices shows his promotion eligibility to Capt.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Eclipse on August 23, 2017, 10:15:40 AM
From what I can see eServices is not set up in any way for NCO promotions.  I have a CAP MSgt and eServices shows his promotion eligibility to Capt.

I'd bet a Venti that the display of the grade is a manual edit of a table somewhere.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Adam B on August 23, 2017, 11:16:22 AM
Why can't I submit NCO grades through eServices?

Because they are still "special appointments" - you can promote a new member who is "flags green"
through eServices because the criteria is all CAP-internal and objective, however since
appoint someone as a CAP-NCO requires external substantiation be reviewed, this is a manual process.

No different then any other "special", "mission skills", or other appointment based on outside criteria.

You can't make a CFI, nor a military O-3, a Captain through the promotion module, either.

Except, it's not.
The initial assignment is, but once a member is established as an NCO, it follows the same duty promotion mechanic as officers:
PD level, TIG, and authorization at the proper level.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Eclipse on August 23, 2017, 11:22:16 AM
I can't disagree with that, in theory.

It affects so few people that it's probably well down the list, somewhere below finding the Acrobat key to change doc numbers.

In some cases aren't open billets required to promote?  Another extra-program "good idea" which is unworkable in reality.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Adam B on August 23, 2017, 11:30:53 AM
In some cases aren't open billets required to promote?  Another extra-program "good idea" which is unworkable in reality.

Yes. There's a "Manning Authorization" table that shows how many of each grade you can promote at each level; it doesn't include people who obtained their grade through other means. So that's a little confusing right off the bat.

But regardless, that could be part of the echelon approval.
The unit commander should know who his Squadron NCO his, and the Wing Commander should know who his Command Chief is.
If it's not that person, then they deny the request.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: MHC5096 on August 23, 2017, 12:50:16 PM
Marine Warrant Officers are a completely different animal than the other branches.  In the Marines you have to have 12 years in service and be an E6 to even apply.  There is also a considerable pay difference between a W1 and a 2nd Lt. There is also about a $1000 a month base pay difference between W1 and 2Lt.

The USN and USCG also require 12+ years TIS and attaining E-7 to E-9 to be eligible for their Warrant Officer programs. E-6s may be eligible if they have been selected for E-7.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: MHC5096 on August 23, 2017, 12:58:47 PM
Flight Officer was a grade used by the US Army Air Corps from 1942-1945. The grade came into use with CAP some time in the 80s after we phased out our Warrant Officer program.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: MSG Mac on August 23, 2017, 03:14:11 PM
The United States Air Force no longer uses the warrant officer grade. The USAF inherited warrant officer ranks from the Army at its inception in 1947, but their place in the Air Force structure was never made clear. When Congress authorized the creation of two new senior enlisted ranks in each of the five services in 1958 (implementing them in 1959-60), Air Force officials privately concluded that these two new "super grades" of senior master sergeant and chief master sergeant (styling the incumbents as "superintendents" vice senior or staff NCOICs as does the USA and USMC) could fill all Air Force needs then performed at the warrant officer level. This was not publicly acknowledged until years later. The Air Force stopped appointing warrant officers in 1959,[22] the same year the first promotions were made to the new top enlisted grade, chief master sergeant. Most of the existing air force warrant officers entered the commissioned officer ranks during the 1960s, but tiny numbers continued to exist for the next 21 years.
The last active-duty air force chief warrant officer, CWO4 James H. Long, retired in 1980. The last Air Force Reserve chief warrant officer, CWO4 Bob Barrow, retired in 1992. Upon his retirement, Barrow was honorarily promoted to CWO5, the only person in the Air Force ever to hold this grade.[22] Barrow died in April 2008.[29] Since Barrow's retirement, Air Force warrant officer ranks, while still authorized by law, are not used.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Eclipse on August 23, 2017, 03:28:06 PM
Comparing CAP grade, enlisted, NCO, Warrant, or Officer, to any military organization
fails on the second question.

With few exceptions, the scope, expectations, and implementation are all incomparable for anything
more then the highest level of discussion, and even then usually leaves out important details on both sides.

The "Flight Officer" grades in CAP are literally nothing but placeholders for a niche segment of the membership
that the organization seeks to retain, but can't figure out what to do with, and in no way compare to
"Flight Officers" in any other military organization beyond the terminology and insignia.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Toad1168 on August 23, 2017, 03:49:07 PM
Another issue with the current program...

I've been waiting (so far) three weeks for a member's promotion to SSgt.
Why can't this be handled in eServices like officer grades? I mean, I could have promoted him to 2d Lt in an instant, but SSgt takes a month? If we're trying to attract people to this program, this isn't the way to do it.

While we're talking about a oddly restrictive grade structure and it's lack of support in Eservices...

"Flight Officer" grades, anyone?
That's a FAR more confusing decision then the NCO program.
While we're all debating the merits of NCOs, the FO grades are hiding in the corner of the room, hoping no one notices them.
What's the purpose of having SMs that are younger than some cadets? Some kind of Brittney Spears syndrome (I'm not a cadet, not yet a Senior Member)?
Not only do the candy-striped Lt bars not exist anywhere in USAF, but having cadets overlap with seniors just seems to cause issues. Plus, as far as Nationals knows, they're all just SM w/o grade, anyway.

But I digress.
Why can't I submit NCO grades through eServices?

The main purpose of the Flight Officer grades is indeed a placeholder.  Most effectively used for cadets transitioning to senior before they turn 21 so there is time for the paperwork to clear.  Or for those former cadets who enlist active duty after high school but want to remain in CAP.  I've rarely seen it outside of that.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Shieldel on August 23, 2017, 04:28:45 PM
You guys keep saying that CAP NCO's can't command a unit, but, you might want to tell that to National HQ, PACR and CAWG. Because the current commander of Big Bear Composite Sq 6750 in Big Bear Lake, CA is a CAP CMSgt. And has been for over a year.

Chief Furnace was at NVWG Encampment this year, nice guy. Learned a lot from him as this year was my first year as a senior.

To the topic, I don't see a point in this program. Still don't, I've heard about it since I was a cadet, I see it as just another way for people to hold onto their military rank. And from my experience CAP is more of a corporate environment, so I can see why the two "sides" have clashes.

Another issue with the current program...

I've been waiting (so far) three weeks for a member's promotion to SSgt.
Why can't this be handled in eServices like officer grades? I mean, I could have promoted him to 2d Lt in an instant, but SSgt takes a month? If we're trying to attract people to this program, this isn't the way to do it.

While we're talking about a oddly restrictive grade structure and it's lack of support in Eservices...

"Flight Officer" grades, anyone?
That's a FAR more confusing decision then the NCO program.
While we're all debating the merits of NCOs, the FO grades are hiding in the corner of the room, hoping no one notices them.
What's the purpose of having SMs that are younger than some cadets? Some kind of Brittney Spears syndrome (I'm not a cadet, not yet a Senior Member)?
Not only do the candy-striped Lt bars not exist anywhere in USAF, but having cadets overlap with seniors just seems to cause issues. Plus, as far as Nationals knows, they're all just SM w/o grade, anyway.

But I digress.
Why can't I submit NCO grades through eServices?

The main purpose of the Flight Officer grades is indeed a placeholder.  Most effectively used for cadets transitioning to senior before they turn 21 so there is time for the paperwork to clear.  Or for those former cadets who enlist active duty after high school but want to remain in CAP.  I've rarely seen it outside of that.

Current Flight Officer here (for a few more months! Aging in as a "full" SM come November) yeah we're tracked on paper, nothing in eservices is logged. Still bewilders me why they haven't put us in the system, but meh what can ya do. I transferred FO/SM side at 19, I see it as more of an "in-between" phase just like Toad said.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: grunt82abn on August 23, 2017, 04:36:43 PM
Really is no need for anyone to clash! Some aspects are like the corporate world and some are military. Regardless of what rank you hold, or which side of the fence you chose, as long as the mission is accomplished safely and according to regulation is the only thing that matters.


TSGT Sean Riley
IL-042
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Shieldel on August 23, 2017, 04:53:33 PM
Really is no need for anyone to clash! Some aspects are like the corporate world and some are military. Regardless of what rank you hold, or which side of the fence you chose, as long as the mission is accomplished safely and according to regulation is the only thing that matters.


TSGT Sean Riley
IL-042

Clearly there's clashes though Sergeant, I mean heck, look at a few pages back when you went on the defensive (rightfully so though I will concede, other board users pushed you to go defense). I'm really not trying to beat the dead horse or argue (although I think I'm doing both so I'll leave it "at that" after this comment) but the NCO Corps has been "spinning up" for THREE national commanders. WHERE do we draw the line as far as "ok this has gone on long enough, clearly it won't work?" I see Master Sgt Harris (from my now former squadron on Nellis AFB) has chimed in here now after reading all pages to this point. It's great "Things" are coming. However I'm an avid gamer and we hear that all the time with games. "Things" are coming, *delayed* things are coming *delay*, eventually people will move on. And as stated in previous comments, exactly that is happening, the NCO Program is fading away because "things are STILL coming".

I personally see no point in this program. But I'm glad you as a retired NCO are a CAP member. I find the "mission and people first" attitude makes these folks fine CAP members, and I've seen that first hand with Sgt Harris on base when I was NV-069.

*Edited for grammar
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: grunt82abn on August 23, 2017, 05:04:27 PM
Really is no need for anyone to clash! Some aspects are like the corporate world and some are military. Regardless of what rank you hold, or which side of the fence you chose, as long as the mission is accomplished safely and according to regulation is the only thing that matters.


TSGT Sean Riley
IL-042

Clearly there's clashes though Sergeant, I mean heck, look at a few pages back when you went on the defensive (rightfully so though I will concede, other board users pushed you to go defense). I'm really not trying to beat the dead horse or argue (although I think I'm doing both so I'll leave it "at that" after this comment) but the NCO Corps has been "spinning up" for THREE national commanders. WHERE do we draw the line as far as "ok this has gone on long enough, clearly it won't work?" I see Master Sgt Harris (from my now former squadron on Nellis AFB) has chimed in here now after reading all pages to this point. It's great "Things" are coming. However I'm an avid gamer and we hear that all the time with games. "Things" are coming, *delayed* things are coming *delay*, eventually people will move on. And as stated in previous comments, exactly that is happening, the NCO Program is fading away because "things are STILL coming".

I personally see no point in this program. But I'm glad you as a retired NCO are a CAP member. I find the "mission and people first" attitude makes these folks fine CAP members, and I've seen that first hand with Sgt Harris on base when I was NV-069.

*Edited for grammar
If it doesn't work, so be it! Cross that bridge when we get to it. Then I'll just have to sow on whatever rank they tell me to. Hell, might just stay at the SM rank and just do what's expected of me.


TSGT Sean Riley
IL-042
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Ned on August 23, 2017, 06:22:55 PM
[ WHERE do we draw the line as far as "ok this has gone on long enough, clearly it won't work?"

It is again worth remembering that we have had NCOs since WWII.  We have somehow managed to be successful in the sense that we have performed our missions exceptionally well, even with a few  NCOs lurking in our ranks.  We have saved hundreds of lives; graduated thousands from our successful cadet program, and educated members and the public about Things Aerospace. 

The latest attempt to tweak the existing program would provide additional promotion and educational opportunities.  Until such time, if any, that changes to our existing regulations are made, we will just drive on as we have for a couple of decades with the existing rules.

CAPTalk is free to draw the line anytime the group chooses to do so.

(As I mentioned before, each of us seems to have opinions about how the program should be modified, or even whether we should have NCOs at all.  We talk about it a lot.  Nobody seems to change their mind or be persuaded by anyone else, so we talk about it some more.)

There is literally "nothing to see here," time to move along.

Ned Lee
Cadet Programs Guy and CAP NCO Enthusiast
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: PHall on August 23, 2017, 09:40:12 PM
Wouldn't it be more economical to slot many rated positions as warrant officer slots, as the Army does with helicopter pilots? Perhaps Navy & USMC should do the same.

The Navy did so for a while, under a programme called "Warrant Officer-to-Pilot."  Inexplicably, though, they did not continue it, nor did any of these warrants fly F/A-18's; they were restricted to rotary-wing, patrol and Electronic Attack.

http://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=22072

I never understood the Air Force's (or CAP's) aversion to warrant officers.

The Coast Guard does quite well with them, as does the Army (I have no experience with USMC WO's).  The Army's aviation warrant slots are the only way I know that someone without a college degree can come in off the street without a four-year degree and earn officer status.

The "Chief's Mafia" has made sure that the Air Force will not have Warrant Officers. Many E-8's and E-9's perform duties that were formerly performed by Warrant Officers and the Chiefs see any kind of return of the Warrants as a threat to them. And the Chief's seem to very, very good at making sure they get their way on this too.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Fubar on August 24, 2017, 12:58:13 PM
Or for those former cadets who enlist active duty after high school but want to remain in CAP.  I've rarely seen it outside of that.

The only flight officers I've seen are 18 and 19 year olds who no longer want the requirements of the cadet program but want to remain active with the cadet program. So they switch to flight officer, still participate in the cadet program but no longer worry about aerospace and leadership tests and whatnot. For one unit the kid served as the defacto cadet commander but was an assistant deputy to the commander on paper.

These were very small units who I think were just happy to keep someone on the roster from leaving and made it a little easier to ensure 2 "seniors" were present at the meetings.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: TIger on August 24, 2017, 06:03:47 PM
The biggest advantage is that you cannot be a commander as an NCO. I would guess that they don’t even ask.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: NIN on August 24, 2017, 07:26:12 PM
The biggest advantage is that you cannot be a commander as an NCO. I would guess that they don’t even ask.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
Did you not see the part above where this was proven not to be true? Why do people keep repeating this?

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Eclipse on August 24, 2017, 08:38:19 PM
The biggest advantage is that you cannot be a commander as an NCO. I would guess that they don’t even ask.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
Did you not see the part above where this was proven not to be true? Why do people keep repeating this?

It's as "double-not-true-true®" as anything else in CAP.  The prohibition may have been removed from the regulations
(assuming it was ever actually in there somewhere), but it >was< in the proposal, and presumably the approval documents
that the CSAF, or whoever, signed when PD was approved for CAP NCOs, not to mention it was included in literally
every press release about same.

So...

They aren't supposed to command squadrons from an "NCO" perspective.

They aren't supposed to command squadrons from a program perspective.

Yet a few do for expedience.

Could that situation be any more "CAP".  Full, military power ambiguity so any behavior or vector desired can be accommodated.

Excellent.

"double-not-true-true®" is a registered trademark of eClipseco Mining and Heavy Machinery Consortium.  All Rights Reserved.  Let eClipseco service all of your rhetoric and propaganda needs!
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: grunt82abn on August 24, 2017, 08:46:33 PM
So what you are saying is we can't command but command when the commander says to command?


TSGT Sean Riley
IL-042
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Eclipse on August 24, 2017, 10:00:15 PM
Or when the commander says to be a commander when you can't be a commander so command.

Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: grunt82abn on August 24, 2017, 10:01:08 PM
Or when the commander says to be a commander when you can't be a commander so command.
Hahahaha



TSGT Sean Riley
IL-042
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Jester on August 24, 2017, 10:40:35 PM
I just saw the National Commander's brief on capmembers today that explicitly says commandering isn't authorized.

I doubt it will cease, but as of 11 August that's the word.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Eclipse on August 24, 2017, 11:07:37 PM
I just saw the National Commander's brief on capmembers today that explicitly says commandering isn't authorized.

I doubt it will cease, but as of 11 August that's the word.

Seriously?  And I just got a brand new commandering hat!  Figures.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: PHall on August 25, 2017, 12:34:21 AM
Well our CMSgt Squadron Commander just got appointed to be the Wing Command Chief. I don't think you can do this job in an IOAD status.
So the great quandary of the CMSgt Squadron Commander may be over! >:D
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Mitchell 1969 on August 25, 2017, 01:54:29 AM


It is again worth remembering that we have had NCOs since WWII.

Ned, you keep saying that, so I will point out, as I oft times do, that the claim is not completely accurate. While CAP has had NCOs between 1941 and now, that is not quite the same as saying "...since WWII," with the implication that the NCO presence has been continuous and on-going. There were a lot of years when CAP had NO NCOs, following a decision that stated there was little true difference between what CAP NCOs do vs CAP officers, as contrasted to the actual differences between military  NCOs and officers. CAP got along just fine without them; no compelling argument was ever made to bring them back, with them eventually returning not for need as much as ex-NCO want.

I understand that you like the concept. I'm a realist who believes that CAP will never bring in the experienced NCOs in sufficient numbers to truly make a difference and that true NCOs of the sort envisioned cannot be home-grown.

All that said, my main point remains this - that the "no NCO era" tends to get forgotten or even swept away during discussions. That era has validity for discussion purposes as an example of a "what was" that worked, with equal or greater validity than the "what might be" that has yet to come into being over several years.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: MHC5096 on August 25, 2017, 07:03:06 AM
I was a Deputy Commander for Cadets for my unit as a Senior Flight Officer.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Adam B on August 25, 2017, 09:54:54 AM
The only flight officers I've seen are 18 and 19 year olds who no longer want the requirements of the cadet program but want to remain active with the cadet program. So they switch to flight officer, still participate in the cadet program but no longer worry about aerospace and leadership tests and whatnot. For one unit the kid served as the defacto cadet commander but was an assistant deputy to the commander on paper.
If they're participating in the cadet program as a SM, they should be doing it from the proper SM perspective, not as an exempt-from-all-your-rules super-cadet.

We had the same issue at my squadron once.
We had a cadet who decided he really didn't like following directions, doing tests, doing PT, or participating in drill.
What he really wanted to do was wear a uniform, get saluted, and give orders to kids. So, when he turned 18, he went FO.
It all worked out about as well as you'd expect.  ::)

The other side of the coin is the squadron pressuring cadets into becoming FOs. I knew a C/Capt, who at 18 or 19, was told that if she really cared about her squadron, she'd become a SM. She did, missing out on another 2-3 more years of cadet opportunities, and most of Phase IV.
We don't serve our cadets by pressuring them out of the program as an alternative to senior recruiting.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Eclipse on August 25, 2017, 10:31:40 AM
The other side of the coin is the squadron pressuring cadets into becoming FOs. I knew a C/Capt, who at 18 or 19, was told that if she really cared about her squadron, she'd become a SM. She did, missing out on another 2-3 more years of cadet opportunities, and most of Phase IV.

I don't doubt for a minute this happened, people have "iders", however outside any other context, it makes no sense at all.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Ned on August 25, 2017, 10:36:06 AM


It is again worth remembering that we have had NCOs since WWII.

Ned, you keep saying that, so I will point out, as I oft times do, that the claim is not completely accurate.

Bernie,

While I appreciate the historical perspective you provide, I must disagree and suggest that my statement is accurate as written.  While it is never wrong to use the word "since" to imply continuity between two points in time, it is not required.  The word "since" does not necessarily require "continuousness"; as in "Ned used to think X, but has since changed his mind".  Or "the cadet program has had a lot of changes since WWII."
Restated, it can have the sense of "then and now."

The helping word "ever" is sometimes used to help imply continuousness, as in "ever since WWII."


But semantics aside, the larger point remains:  we have had productive NCOs for the great majority of our proud 75 year history.  They have actively contributed to the mission.  And I would suspect that even you would agree they are nothing new.

And we may well further agree that we may never attract the thousands of NCOs that I would like to see.  B But I am grateful for every one of the dozens that do serve.  Every one is a potential CP resource of inesti mable value.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Mitchell 1969 on August 25, 2017, 02:21:04 PM


While I appreciate the historical perspective you provide, I must disagree and suggest that my statement is accurate as written.  While it is never wrong to use the word "since" to imply continuity between two points in time, it is not required.  The word "since" does not necessarily require "continuousness"; as in "Ned used to think X, but has since changed his mind".  Or "the cadet program has had a lot of changes since WWII."
Restated, it can have the sense of "then and now."

Using your argument, above, should I eagerly await the arrival of my 50-year membership card next month? After all, i have been in CAP since September 1967. But...that wasn't continuous, so, I suppose not. I took a break in membership. It would.be more accurate, then, to say "I joined CAP in 1967. I have been a member for most of the time since then." (Just as it would be more accurate to say "CAP had NCOs in WWII. It has had NCOs for most of the time since then."


But semantics aside, the larger point remains:  we have had productive NCOs for the great majority of our proud 75 year history.  They have actively contributed to the mission.  And I would suspect that even you would agree they are nothing new.

And we may well further agree that we may never attract the thousands of NCOs that I would like to see.  B But I am grateful for every one of the dozens that do serve.  Every one is a potential CP resource of inesti mable value.

All true. But, it's also true for EVERY volunteer who served CAP. And, given that there is so very little difference between what CAP NCOs do, or can do, and what CAP non-NCOs do, or can do, that's why so many members just don't see the NCO program as much more than something tailor fit to a narrow audience for personal preference reasons.

But, it's here and I wish CAP luck with it. The only things I'm asking are that the reality of the "non-NCO years" not be forgotten and that the success of those years not be glossed over, but given due consideration during discussions. 
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: SarDragon on August 25, 2017, 06:40:11 PM
Well, sports fans, after a detailed look at my extensive, and complete, collection of CAPM 39-1 Uniform Manuals, I have found that NCO grade insignia have always been permitted for wear. There was a period of time when it could only be worn "if earned prior to 1 July 1972," but it always been in the 39-1.

Now, I will concede that there probably weren't many, if any, NCOs hanging around from back then into the '90s, but  I don't think we have a reliable means of determining that.

Just my little bit of history.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Ned on August 25, 2017, 09:33:46 PM

[. . .]And, given that there is so very little difference between what CAP NCOs do, or can do, and what CAP non-NCOs do, or can do, that's why so many members just don't see the NCO program as much more than something tailor fit to a narrow audience for personal preference reasons.

My position is that -in CP at least- NCOs can indeed do at least one thing that officers cannot.  And that is to model effective  NCO leadership styles.  As a former serviceman, I hope that you would agree that military NCOs lead with different techniques and styles than officers.  I grant you that most cadets never see a CAP NCO and turn out just fine, but since every cadet has to serve effectively as a cadet NCO, it can help to have role models, mentors, and trainers that are successful NCOs.

It's just a bonus that under our current system that NCOs come to us pre-trained and experienced as small unit leaders.  And are generally skilled in small unit administrative and support duties.

Again, we obviously have a successful program without a significant number of NCOs.  But we could be much, much better if we had more.

Quote
The only things I'm asking are that the reality of the "non-NCO years" not be forgotten and that the success of those years not be glossed over, but given due consideration during discussions.

I'm certainly no historian, but how sure are you that we were ever completely NCO-free?  I get that there was a time when we didn't appoint any, but were the existing NCOs forcibly reclassified or allowed to stay until retirement?  (Which usually means death for long-term senior members.)

Your bud, 

Ned
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: kwe1009 on August 25, 2017, 09:45:35 PM
My position is that -in CP at least- NCOs can indeed do at least one thing that officers cannot.  And that is to model effective  NCO leadership styles.  As a former serviceman, I hope that you would agree that military NCOs lead with different techniques and styles than officers.  I grant you that most cadets never see a CAP NCO and turn out just fine, but since every cadet has to serve effectively as a cadet NCO, it can help to have role models, mentors, and trainers that are successful NCOs.

It's just a bonus that under our current system that NCOs come to us pre-trained and experienced as small unit leaders.  And are generally skilled in small unit administrative and support duties.

Again, we obviously have a successful program without a significant number of NCOs.  But we could be much, much better if we had more.

Unfortunately not all NCO have the leadership training that so many people on here state.  Some great examples are the ones who just got line numbers for SSgt in the USAF.  Some of these individuals have been in the military for less than 3 years and may get out in 6 years or less so there is not much opportunity for training and experience.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Ned on August 25, 2017, 10:42:08 PM

Unfortunately not all NCO have the leadership training that so many people on here state.

Like, say, compared to a non-prior-service, non-prior- cadet Senior Member 2d Lt?   8)

I fully understand that,  to paraphrase Garrison Keillor, "about half of the CAP NCOs will be below average."  One of them will be the worst NCO in CAP.

But essentially by definition, every military NCO has training and experience that would immeasurably benefit our Cadet Program.

That's my point.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: arajca on August 26, 2017, 12:31:58 AM
I would argue the point that every military NCO would benefit our cadet program. I served with some excellent examples and some who wouldn't understand leadership if their life depended on it.

Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Mitchell 1969 on August 26, 2017, 02:21:30 AM

[. . .]And, given that there is so very little difference between what CAP NCOs do, or can do, and what CAP non-NCOs do, or can do, that's why so many members just don't see the NCO program as much more than something tailor fit to a narrow audience for personal preference reasons.

My position is that -in CP at least- NCOs can indeed do at least one thing that officers cannot.  And that is to model effective  NCO leadership styles.  As a former serviceman, I hope that you would agree that military NCOs lead with different techniques and styles than officers.  I grant you that most cadets never see a CAP NCO and turn out just fine, but since every cadet has to serve effectively as a cadet NCO, it can help to have role models, mentors, and trainers that are successful NCOs.

It's just a bonus that under our current system that NCOs come to us pre-trained and experienced as small unit leaders.  And are generally skilled in small unit administrative and support duties.

Again, we obviously have a successful program without a significant number of NCOs.  But we could be much, much better if we had more.

Quote
The only things I'm asking are that the reality of the "non-NCO years" not be forgotten and that the success of those years not be glossed over, but given due consideration during discussions.

I'm certainly no historian, but how sure are you that we were ever completely NCO-free?  I get that there was a time when we didn't appoint any, but were the existing NCOs forcibly reclassified or allowed to stay until retirement?  (Which usually means death for long-term senior members.)

Your bud, 

Ned

I recall it being NCO-free. It came about, as was explained at the time, because of three things: 1) CAP was using the NCO grades for SMs who joined between 18-21, as well as for members over 21 who did not wish to become officers - meaning that we could have 20-year old MSGts or 80-year old MSgts with no rhyme or reason; 2) There were issues that came about when billeting or granting club privileges on military bases to CAP members, who found themselves separated due to grade; 3) A studied realization that there was little or no difference in duties and responsibilities between CAP NCOs and officers.

I know there was a provision in 39-1 allowing stripes to be worn if earned before 1972, but don't recall actually seeing any. It would be better to consult the personnel regs, but I seem to recall something about them being given a cut-off date and told to make a choice of officer or SMWOG. And, some did, indeed, quit rather than make the choice. Maybe the personnel regs changed while 39-1 did not? Or maybe there was one hold out in the wilds of Wyoming, but I never saw any or heard of any after the tap was turned off.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Mitchell 1969 on August 26, 2017, 02:34:08 AM

Unfortunately not all NCO have the leadership training that so many people on here state.

Like, say, compared to a non-prior-service, non-prior- cadet Senior Member 2d Lt?   8)

I fully understand that,  to paraphrase Garrison Keillor, "about half of the CAP NCOs will be below average."  One of them will be the worst NCO in CAP.

But essentially by definition, every military NCO has training and experience that would immeasurably benefit our Cadet Program.

That's my point.

But not every military NCO is interested in joining a volunteer organization to use that training and experience to immeasurably benefit our Cadet Program. If they did, they'd already be here, either as CAP officers or as CAP NCOs. That's (one of) my point(s).
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: kwe1009 on August 26, 2017, 01:27:06 PM

Unfortunately not all NCO have the leadership training that so many people on here state.

Like, say, compared to a non-prior-service, non-prior- cadet Senior Member 2d Lt?   8)

I fully understand that,  to paraphrase Garrison Keillor, "about half of the CAP NCOs will be below average."  One of them will be the worst NCO in CAP.

But essentially by definition, every military NCO has training and experience that would immeasurably benefit our Cadet Program.

That's my point.

But not every military NCO is interested in joining a volunteer organization to use that training and experience to immeasurably benefit our Cadet Program. If they did, they'd already be here, either as CAP officers or as CAP NCOs. That's (one of) my point(s).

Very true.  If a military NCO really wants to be a mentor to cadets they will do it even if they can't wear stripes or officer rank.  If either being an NCO or officer is keeping a person from being a mentor to a cadet then we are better off without them.  A good leader and mentor would not be focused on wearing stripes or clusters, they would be focused on be a good mentor.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: 1st Lt Thompson on August 26, 2017, 06:09:01 PM
Quote
A soldier will fight long and hard for a bit of colored ribbon. - Napoleon Bonaparte

I will agree and disagree. People have many different reasons for being here. If they are truly motivated to mentor Cadets, then true, it won't matter if they have stripes, bars, oak leaves etc.

If stripes, bars or oak leaves get them in the door, however, and they turn out to be great mentors to our Cadet's, I wouldn't say that we're better off without them if the rank was their original reason to join.

If a member does 60 hours of community service just to get a ribbon, that doesn't make his/her service irrelevant.

If a member does GTM or MS training just to get a shiny badge, but then actually shows up and performs when called upon for a mission, it doesn't make their service irrelevant because they originally did it for a badge.

I'd say if stripes get them in the door, great! If being a mentor gets them in the door, welcome and thank you. Whatever the reason they join, we're probably better off having them then not.

If we really won't be better off having them, that should come out during the review board process before allowing them to join.

I think after all of these pages, we can agree that NCO's are here to stay, there's no real direction for the program, some people like having NCO's, some people don't, etc. etc. Time to move on with more important things.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on August 26, 2017, 06:50:42 PM
But we get circularly back to "NCOs as CAP Officers can do the same thing."
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: 1st Lt Thompson on August 26, 2017, 07:14:29 PM
But we get circularly back to "NCOs as CAP Officers can do the same thing."

And we will keep circling back, and this thread will never end!
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Red 6 on September 20, 2017, 08:40:28 PM
Long-time reader, first time writing a post. I'm a retired Soldier, 1SG (E-8). I was a cadet in CAP in the 70s and earned my Billy Mitchell, which apparently Maxwell has no record of since they told me that old files like that get purged after a certain number of years. But I digress and this is the wrong section for that gripe.

As a new senior member of CAP, the NCO program was part of the reason why I re-joined, but it wasn't a make-or-break thing. I would just like to offer my own reasoning, not for or against either viewpoint of officer versus NCO. A further piece of information is the five years I spent as a Scouter in BSA. My son was a Scout for almost ten years and when he crossed over into Boy Scouts, I became an adult volunteer (Aka Scouter). I was on our troop committee, and served as the Quartermaster, plus I was active in our local council. I got my Wood Badge, (I used to be a Fox, and a good old Fox too...) and subsequently staffed a Wood Badge course.

Here was the problem I ran into. There was a long-time core of Scouters in the troop and at the council level and I never felt like I belonged to the club. Don't get me wrong. BSA is a very open and welcoming organization. But there was a definite feeling of "We've got all this, all we want is your help and only where we need you." A lot of Scouters spend 20 or more years in the same troop or council. As a relative newcomer to BSA, I didn't feel unwelcomed, but I did perceive that definite cubby holes existed that were essentially walled off to folks like me.

Contrast that with CAP, which not only welcomes me, finds a slot that matches my skill set perfectly (composite squadron leadership officer), but also asks me if I'd like to convert to SMSgt, or go the officer route. For me, the decision was easy. I was an NCO for most of my career, and feel very comfortable in the role. Basically, it's who I feel like I am. To me, being an officer or NCO in CAP isn't necessarily about the specific grade, and I understand that many former NCO's transition to the officer side when they join. That's excellent, but for me, it just didn't feel right.

I realize that from a practical perspective, there isn't a difference between what an NCO or officer does in a slot like mine. But it doesn't matter to me, and since I'm one of the retired NCO's this program is aimed at, I wanted to share my thoughts and my opinion.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: grunt82abn on September 20, 2017, 08:53:42 PM
Long-time reader, first time writing a post. I'm a retired Soldier, 1SG (E-8). I was a cadet in CAP in the 70s and earned my Billy Mitchell, which apparently Maxwell has no record of since they told me that old files like that get purged after a certain number of years. But I digress and this is the wrong section for that gripe.

As a new senior member of CAP, the NCO program was part of the reason why I re-joined, but it wasn't a make-or-break thing. I would just like to offer my own reasoning, not for or against either viewpoint of officer versus NCO. A further piece of information is the five years I spent as a Scouter in BSA. My son was a Scout for almost ten years and when he crossed over into Boy Scouts, I became an adult volunteer (Aka Scouter). I was on our troop committee, and served as the Quartermaster, plus I was active in our local council. I got my Wood Badge, (I used to be a Fox, and a good old Fox too...) and subsequently staffed a Wood Badge course.

Here was the problem I ran into. There was a long-time core of Scouters in the troop and at the council level and I never felt like I belonged to the club. Don't get me wrong. BSA is a very open and welcoming organization. But there was a definite feeling of "We've got all this, all we want is your help and only where we need you." A lot of Scouters spend 20 or more years in the same troop or council. As a relative newcomer to BSA, I didn't feel unwelcomed, but I did perceive that definite cubby holes existed that were essentially walled off to folks like me.

Contrast that with CAP, which not only welcomes me, finds a slot that matches my skill set perfectly (composite squadron leadership officer), but also asks me if I'd like to convert to SMSgt, or go the officer route. For me, the decision was easy. I was an NCO for most of my career, and feel very comfortable in the role. Basically, it's who I feel like I am. To me, being an officer or NCO in CAP isn't necessarily about the specific grade, and I understand that many former NCO's transition to the officer side when they join. That's excellent, but for me, it just didn't feel right.

I realize that from a practical perspective, there isn't a difference between what an NCO or officer does in a slot like mine. But it doesn't matter to me, and since I'm one of the retired NCO's this program is aimed at, I wanted to share my thoughts and my opinion.
Hit the nail on the head 1SG! I'm glad others on here feel the same way I do! AATW


TSGT Sean Riley
IL-042
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Holding Pattern on September 21, 2017, 03:56:41 AM
Long-time reader, first time writing a post. I'm a retired Soldier, 1SG (E-8). I was a cadet in CAP in the 70s and earned my Billy Mitchell, which apparently Maxwell has no record of since they told me that old files like that get purged after a certain number of years. But I digress and this is the wrong section for that gripe.

As a new senior member of CAP, the NCO program was part of the reason why I re-joined, but it wasn't a make-or-break thing. I would just like to offer my own reasoning, not for or against either viewpoint of officer versus NCO. A further piece of information is the five years I spent as a Scouter in BSA. My son was a Scout for almost ten years and when he crossed over into Boy Scouts, I became an adult volunteer (Aka Scouter). I was on our troop committee, and served as the Quartermaster, plus I was active in our local council. I got my Wood Badge, (I used to be a Fox, and a good old Fox too...) and subsequently staffed a Wood Badge course.

Here was the problem I ran into. There was a long-time core of Scouters in the troop and at the council level and I never felt like I belonged to the club. Don't get me wrong. BSA is a very open and welcoming organization. But there was a definite feeling of "We've got all this, all we want is your help and only where we need you." A lot of Scouters spend 20 or more years in the same troop or council. As a relative newcomer to BSA, I didn't feel unwelcomed, but I did perceive that definite cubby holes existed that were essentially walled off to folks like me.

Contrast that with CAP, which not only welcomes me, finds a slot that matches my skill set perfectly (composite squadron leadership officer), but also asks me if I'd like to convert to SMSgt, or go the officer route. For me, the decision was easy. I was an NCO for most of my career, and feel very comfortable in the role. Basically, it's who I feel like I am. To me, being an officer or NCO in CAP isn't necessarily about the specific grade, and I understand that many former NCO's transition to the officer side when they join. That's excellent, but for me, it just didn't feel right.

I realize that from a practical perspective, there isn't a difference between what an NCO or officer does in a slot like mine. But it doesn't matter to me, and since I'm one of the retired NCO's this program is aimed at, I wanted to share my thoughts and my opinion.

If you PM me your name and year, I'll see if I can dig it out of the cap newspapers they used to publish them in. I found 2 awards that way recently for rejoining members.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: indiaXray on September 21, 2017, 09:11:59 AM
At present, as has been noted, since NCO's can do (almost) all the same things as CAP Officers.  That can lead to an existential "What is the point?" moment for individuals who prefer stripes to bars, but also for the NCO track as a whole. Individuals are left to figure that question on their own, and the organisation seems confused.  Would defined NCO-specific roles, duties, and NCO-specific training at all levels of the organisation help to give the NCO initiative purpose?  Is it just a recruitment carrot/handshake for ex-SNCOs? Is it a bureaucratic leftover from a outmoded era?  Is it an homage to organisational history?  Does the programme provide value in its current form?  If not, does that mean as an organisation should change?  If so, how? Does CAP redesign its organisational structure to have proportionally more NCOs than officers to be on par with our parent service? Making officer rank more selective.  Should CAP invent a rank structure analogous to the parent service, but different and uniquely CAP?  Should CAP ditch rank altogether?

It's an organisational structure & culture question and no small challenge to implement.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: TheSkyHornet on September 21, 2017, 09:35:49 AM
If the claim is that NCOs can do everything officers can, because it's all just a matter of titles, then why wouldn't the military just do away with NCOs and officers, and assign individuals to roles respective of a job function and not titles?

I would say because it's more so than just tradition. Distinguishing between NCOs and Officers sets a heraldry for discipline and distinction through title. And that distinction is further carried through different training "pipelines," which further break down into our various individuals are placed into those job roles.

I wonder if it wouldn't be appropriate, at the small unit level, to accommodate a "civilian" service role, whereas you can have administrators and clerks hold a duty position and have access to certain information without expecting them to go through the professional development process. There are a lot of CAP officers that are left in the dark, not just because they don't have the mentoring they need to succeed, but they, frankly, don't have a clue to begin with and aren't really searching for answers. To be simple with it, officership may not be something they're "cut out" for.

I firmly disagree with ditching rank. If it's something that can't be implemented at the paramilitary level, why should it be implemented at the military level, or in a police force, or fire department? All of these organizations have a historical tradition of assigning titles to back up authority to back up duty. Sure, each individual force has a flexibility to manipulate that chain to suit its internal needs. But that's not much different than a corporation, say, manufacturing, to a degree.

We're a paramilitary corporation. Many of our members come from a military or law enforcement background. They've carried that knowledge with them on joining CAP, albeit a different mission to a degree, but often intertwined with their former. I would rather see a further development of "career" progression and training than to cut out what we call people.

NCOs have a distinct role. A Master Sergeant is not training to become a Captain, not does he want to be. Similarly, the Captain is not training to become a Master Sergeant. And I can guarantee you that the CAP Master Sergeant, because of his background, knows exactly what his role is supposed to be. It's when the Captain, who went from college to working in media marketing and has no really concept of what a "mission" is and only holds that rank because he's a CFI, starts to misunderstand the Officer-NCO relationship that it falls apart.

As a CAP officer, I know the exact job of my Staff Sergeant. We bounce feedback off one another continuously, and we lean on one another as an officer and NCO. I knew him back when he was a CAP officer, and this is by far the best transition we could have made because we're both comfortable in the relationship and how to effectively work together.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: kwe1009 on September 21, 2017, 10:16:55 AM
If the claim is that NCOs can do everything officers can, because it's all just a matter of titles, then why wouldn't the military just do away with NCOs and officers, and assign individuals to roles respective of a job function and not titles?

I would say because it's more so than just tradition. Distinguishing between NCOs and Officers sets a heraldry for discipline and distinction through title. And that distinction is further carried through different training "pipelines," which further break down into our various individuals are placed into those job roles.

I wonder if it wouldn't be appropriate, at the small unit level, to accommodate a "civilian" service role, whereas you can have administrators and clerks hold a duty position and have access to certain information without expecting them to go through the professional development process. There are a lot of CAP officers that are left in the dark, not just because they don't have the mentoring they need to succeed, but they, frankly, don't have a clue to begin with and aren't really searching for answers. To be simple with it, officership may not be something they're "cut out" for.

I firmly disagree with ditching rank. If it's something that can't be implemented at the paramilitary level, why should it be implemented at the military level, or in a police force, or fire department? All of these organizations have a historical tradition of assigning titles to back up authority to back up duty. Sure, each individual force has a flexibility to manipulate that chain to suit its internal needs. But that's not much different than a corporation, say, manufacturing, to a degree.

We're a paramilitary corporation. Many of our members come from a military or law enforcement background. They've carried that knowledge with them on joining CAP, albeit a different mission to a degree, but often intertwined with their former. I would rather see a further development of "career" progression and training than to cut out what we call people.

NCOs have a distinct role. A Master Sergeant is not training to become a Captain, not does he want to be. Similarly, the Captain is not training to become a Master Sergeant. And I can guarantee you that the CAP Master Sergeant, because of his background, knows exactly what his role is supposed to be. It's when the Captain, who went from college to working in media marketing and has no really concept of what a "mission" is and only holds that rank because he's a CFI, starts to misunderstand the Officer-NCO relationship that it falls apart.

As a CAP officer, I know the exact job of my Staff Sergeant. We bounce feedback off one another continuously, and we lean on one another as an officer and NCO. I knew him back when he was a CAP officer, and this is by far the best transition we could have made because we're both comfortable in the relationship and how to effectively work together.

Interesting insights about a "civilian" service role.  The military had embraced that very same concept in the form of contractors and civil service employees.  Neither group is tied to the PD/uniform requirements of the main force.  I would say that we have something similar but only informally.  Since there is no compulsion to advance in rank or PD within CAP, a person can join and be a SM or 2d Lt for their entire career in CAP.  There is still the uniform requirement however but I know of many squadrons that really do not enforce uniform wear on some or all members.  Is that a correct course of action?  No.

I don't think NHQ is willing to create another membership category to accommodate those who just want to contribute but don't want to wear a uniform for one reason or another.  Maybe this is something that warrants further investigation.  Is there really a solid reason for every person at a squadron meeting to have to wear a uniform (outside of current regulations of course)?
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: vorteks on September 21, 2017, 10:28:43 AM
Interesting insights about a "civilian" service role.  The military had embraced that very same concept in the form of contractors and civil service employees.  Neither group is tied to the PD/uniform requirements of the main force.  I would say that we have something similar but only informally.  Since there is no compulsion to advance in rank or PD within CAP, a person can join and be a SM or 2d Lt for their entire career in CAP.  There is still the uniform requirement however but I know of many squadrons that really do not enforce uniform wear on some or all members.  Is that a correct course of action?  No.

There's no "compulsion" to even show up, let alone do a good job--thats the difference between us and the military or even the civilian workforce and a big part of the problem.

Also even if you think wearing a golf shirt is a uniform there's already no requirement to wear one in most situations.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Eclipse on September 21, 2017, 10:41:34 AM
If the claim is that NCOs can do everything officers can, because it's all just a matter of titles, then why wouldn't the military just do away with NCOs and officers, and assign individuals to roles respective of a job function and not titles?

Not "NCOs", CAP-NCOs.

Military NCOs have a very important and specifically defined role, CAP-NCOs do not.  They do not have special force powers in regards to cadets,
the majority of CAP squadrons do no operate in a fashion which makes NCOs any more, or less valuable then any other similarly-capable member, or for that matter a parent.

The Civil Air Patrol, as an organization, could and does benefit greatly with the membership of military NCOs, but that is because of their mindset and professionalism generally,
not because of any special skill they bring to the table in regards to CAP's missions. This is no different then CAP benefiting from EMTs who can't hang IV's, lawyers who can't draft contracts,
pilots who don't fly, or liberal arts majors who don't make fries.

In fact, when you consider that the general timbre of the cadet program over the last several years has been an increased emphasis in AE & STEM, while pushing towards
a more corporate / academic  framework for the curriculum and many activities, the insinuation that "more military" people are somehow "better by design" then everyone else
doesn't even fit the vector of the organization.

As to the idea of "civilian augmentees", seriously, no.  As it is we can't compel members to duty and training, and there's a suggestion now that anybody can
just "do things"?  Has it gotten that bad from a manpower standpoint?
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: TheSkyHornet on September 21, 2017, 10:52:16 AM
The role of a CAP NCO, though, is not solely defined to a Cadet Program.

So, I guess there's a question to be asked:
What is the question in itself---are we trying to recruit military NCOs to be CAP members, or are we trying to recruit military NCOs to be CAP NCOs?

Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: THRAWN on September 21, 2017, 10:57:00 AM
The role of a CAP NCO, though, is not solely defined to a Cadet Program.

So, I guess there's a question to be asked:
What is the question in itself---are we trying to recruit military NCOs to be CAP members, or are we trying to recruit military NCOs to be CAP NCOs?

Stuttering George....can you use the search function and review the couple dozen pages that already answer this question? Please.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: TheSkyHornet on September 21, 2017, 11:01:15 AM
The role of a CAP NCO, though, is not solely defined to a Cadet Program.

So, I guess there's a question to be asked:
What is the question in itself---are we trying to recruit military NCOs to be CAP members, or are we trying to recruit military NCOs to be CAP NCOs?

Stuttering George....can you use the search function and review the couple dozen pages that already answer this question? Please.

The OP asked about wearing CAP stripes. Half the comments here bring up whether or not CAP needs NCOs at all, and another faction has addressed using it to recruit prior service NCOs as part of a membership drive.

So the question still remains.


To quote you, Sir:

It's been 4 YEARS

How much more time is needed to decide what the program will be? I've said it before, but very soon, the THIRD National Commander will have this on their desk. Saying "they are working on it", isn't very promising.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: Eclipse on September 21, 2017, 11:01:22 AM
The role of a CAP NCO, though, is not solely defined to a Cadet Program.

So, I guess there's a question to be asked:
What is the question in itself---are we trying to recruit military NCOs to be CAP members, or are we trying to recruit military NCOs to be CAP NCOs?

Stuttering George....can you use the search function and review the couple dozen pages that already answer this question? Please.

To be fair, NHQ has insinuated that the answer is interdependent, while history, even in the last several years since the new program was announced,
shows otherwise.  I would hazard this is an unanswerable question in the current context.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: TheSkyHornet on September 21, 2017, 11:11:21 AM
The role of a CAP NCO, though, is not solely defined to a Cadet Program.

So, I guess there's a question to be asked:
What is the question in itself---are we trying to recruit military NCOs to be CAP members, or are we trying to recruit military NCOs to be CAP NCOs?

Stuttering George....can you use the search function and review the couple dozen pages that already answer this question? Please.

To be fair, NHQ has insinuated that the answer is interdependent, while history, even in the last several years since the new program was announced,
shows otherwise.  I would hazard this is an unanswerable question in the current context.

Hence my point.

You have people that see CAP NCOs as a selling point to bring in members.

CAP had prior service NCOs before there were CAP NCOs. The role of the CAP NCO was introduced, and since modified, although a slow progression to actually develop it.

And Thrawn pointed out, himself, before his little tirade, that it's been "under development" for a long time now. And I would suppose it's because this very question is still answered. Many people in this organization today don't know what the difference between an NCO and an officer is, and they don't know how to incorporate those difference at both the unit staffing level and in training the collective of the NCO corps.

It's only an assumption, but I would guess that, seeing as there are more NCOs than officers in the military, there are probably more CAP members who were NCOs than were officers during their service. So of these NCOs, how many became CAP officers, and why? Do they see a difference in the benefit of being an officer versus an NCO, from a progression standpoint or a duty standpoint? Does that difference even exist?

If someone is going to recruit a prior NCO to join CAP, using their NCO status as a recruiting tool, then I would say you're trying to suggest to that individual that there is a benefit of them being an NCO, versus a prior service member. Or is it their level of experience? Hanging stripes in someone's face, going "Get these back" is an indicator, to me, that you're trying to recruit NCOs to be NCOs. But those of us already in CAP see that there is little distinction between a CAP NCO and a CAP officer.

So which is it? Are we recruiting NCOs, or are we recruiting members?

This topic derailed from the OP about 7 pages of comments back. So I think it's safe to say we can get over whether or not we're answering his question from January.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: THRAWN on September 21, 2017, 11:44:49 AM
The role of a CAP NCO, though, is not solely defined to a Cadet Program.

So, I guess there's a question to be asked:
What is the question in itself---are we trying to recruit military NCOs to be CAP members, or are we trying to recruit military NCOs to be CAP NCOs?

Stuttering George....can you use the search function and review the couple dozen pages that already answer this question? Please.

To be fair, NHQ has insinuated that the answer is interdependent, while history, even in the last several years since the new program was announced,
shows otherwise.  I would hazard this is an unanswerable question in the current context.

Hence my point.

You have people that see CAP NCOs as a selling point to bring in members.

CAP had prior service NCOs before there were CAP NCOs. The role of the CAP NCO was introduced, and since modified, although a slow progression to actually develop it.

And Thrawn pointed out, himself, before his little tirade, that it's been "under development" for a long time now. And I would suppose it's because this very question is still answered. Many people in this organization today don't know what the difference between an NCO and an officer is, and they don't know how to incorporate those difference at both the unit staffing level and in training the collective of the NCO corps.

It's only an assumption, but I would guess that, seeing as there are more NCOs than officers in the military, there are probably more CAP members who were NCOs than were officers during their service. So of these NCOs, how many became CAP officers, and why? Do they see a difference in the benefit of being an officer versus an NCO, from a progression standpoint or a duty standpoint? Does that difference even exist?

If someone is going to recruit a prior NCO to join CAP, using their NCO status as a recruiting tool, then I would say you're trying to suggest to that individual that there is a benefit of them being an NCO, versus a prior service member. Or is it their level of experience? Hanging stripes in someone's face, going "Get these back" is an indicator, to me, that you're trying to recruit NCOs to be NCOs. But those of us already in CAP see that there is little distinction between a CAP NCO and a CAP officer.

So which is it? Are we recruiting NCOs, or are we recruiting members?

This topic derailed from the OP about 7 pages of comments back. So I think it's safe to say we can get over whether or not we're answering his question from January.

Literally every single one of your questions has been asked before, answered before, and there is still no progress on this "new exciting program". You have again, for probably the 300th time, identified the issues with the whole concept. Bottom line: it was the pet project of a NC who is a former NCO. There is no need for it, and even during his term, little was done to put it into play. Lots of people worked hard on codifying the motivation of people joining CAP, and in the end, the drafts sit on a shelf and collect dust. This discussion is all very interesting, but it does nothing to attract or retain members. Focus more on dead or dying missions.
Title: Re: NCO selling points and benefits??
Post by: J2H on February 19, 2018, 11:19:42 PM
I joined back in 2013 as a SMWOG and was in CAP for a little over 2 months.  I reisgned to move out of state.  Back then, if you joined as an NCO, you stayed there.  Now I see there is a potential for promotion.  I am actually considering joining as a CAP SSgt (my last paygrade in the USAF).  In the end, right now, it looks like the decision to wear stripes over bars is personal preference... until a fully designed NCO program is facilitated.