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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: NCO selling points and benefits??
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CyBorgII
Member

Posts: 56
Unit: USCG AUX

« Reply #160 on: August 22, 2017, 06:42:18 PM »

Wouldn't it be more economical to slot many rated positions as warrant officer slots, as the Army does with helicopter pilots? Perhaps Navy & USMC should do the same.

The Navy did so for a while, under a programme called "Warrant Officer-to-Pilot."  Inexplicably, though, they did not continue it, nor did any of these warrants fly F/A-18's; they were restricted to rotary-wing, patrol and Electronic Attack.

http://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=22072

I never understood the Air Force's (or CAP's) aversion to warrant officers.

The Coast Guard does quite well with them, as does the Army (I have no experience with USMC WO's).  The Army's aviation warrant slots are the only way I know that someone without a college degree can come in off the street without a four-year degree and earn officer status.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2017, 06:47:15 PM by CyBorgII » Logged
Whaddaya mean I ain't kind?  I'm just not YOUR kind!

Ex-CAP Captain, now CG Auxiliary, but still feel a great deal of affection for the many good people in CAP.
Flying Pig
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,043

« Reply #161 on: August 23, 2017, 09:42:32 AM »

Marine Warrant Officers are a completely different animal than the other branches.  In the Marines you have to have 12 years in service and be an E6 to even apply.  There is also a considerable pay difference between a W1 and a 2nd Lt. There is also about a $1000 a month base pay difference between W1 and 2Lt.
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Adam B
Recruit

Posts: 32
Unit: 28-037

« Reply #162 on: August 23, 2017, 09:45:26 AM »

Another issue with the current program...

I've been waiting (so far) three weeks for a member's promotion to SSgt.
Why can't this be handled in eServices like officer grades? I mean, I could have promoted him to 2d Lt in an instant, but SSgt takes a month? If we're trying to attract people to this program, this isn't the way to do it.

While we're talking about a oddly restrictive grade structure and it's lack of support in Eservices...

"Flight Officer" grades, anyone?
That's a FAR more confusing decision then the NCO program.
While we're all debating the merits of NCOs, the FO grades are hiding in the corner of the room, hoping no one notices them.
What's the purpose of having SMs that are younger than some cadets? Some kind of Brittney Spears syndrome (I'm not a cadet, not yet a Senior Member)?
Not only do the candy-striped Lt bars not exist anywhere in USAF, but having cadets overlap with seniors just seems to cause issues. Plus, as far as Nationals knows, they're all just SM w/o grade, anyway.

But I digress.
Why can't I submit NCO grades through eServices?
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Adam B
Capt, CAP
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,249

« Reply #163 on: August 23, 2017, 09:50:06 AM »

Why can't I submit NCO grades through eServices?

Because they are still "special appointments" - you can promote a new member who is "flags green"
through eServices because the criteria is all CAP-internal and objective, however since
appoint someone as a CAP-NCO requires external substantiation be reviewed, this is a manual process.

No different then any other "special", "mission skills", or other appointment based on outside criteria.

You can't make a CFI, nor a military O-3, a Captain through the promotion module, either.
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kwe1009
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 915

« Reply #164 on: August 23, 2017, 10:09:46 AM »

Why can't I submit NCO grades through eServices?

Because they are still "special appointments" - you can promote a new member who is "flags green"
through eServices because the criteria is all CAP-internal and objective, however since
appoint someone as a CAP-NCO requires external substantiation be reviewed, this is a manual process.

No different then any other "special", "mission skills", or other appointment based on outside criteria.

You can't make a CFI, nor a military O-3, a Captain through the promotion module, either.

From what I can see eServices is not set up in any way for NCO promotions.  I have a CAP MSgt and eServices shows his promotion eligibility to Capt.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,249

« Reply #165 on: August 23, 2017, 10:15:40 AM »

From what I can see eServices is not set up in any way for NCO promotions.  I have a CAP MSgt and eServices shows his promotion eligibility to Capt.

I'd bet a Venti that the display of the grade is a manual edit of a table somewhere.
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Adam B
Recruit

Posts: 32
Unit: 28-037

« Reply #166 on: August 23, 2017, 11:16:22 AM »

Why can't I submit NCO grades through eServices?

Because they are still "special appointments" - you can promote a new member who is "flags green"
through eServices because the criteria is all CAP-internal and objective, however since
appoint someone as a CAP-NCO requires external substantiation be reviewed, this is a manual process.

No different then any other "special", "mission skills", or other appointment based on outside criteria.

You can't make a CFI, nor a military O-3, a Captain through the promotion module, either.

Except, it's not.
The initial assignment is, but once a member is established as an NCO, it follows the same duty promotion mechanic as officers:
PD level, TIG, and authorization at the proper level.
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Adam B
Capt, CAP
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,249

« Reply #167 on: August 23, 2017, 11:22:16 AM »

I can't disagree with that, in theory.

It affects so few people that it's probably well down the list, somewhere below finding the Acrobat key to change doc numbers.

In some cases aren't open billets required to promote?  Another extra-program "good idea" which is unworkable in reality.
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Adam B
Recruit

Posts: 32
Unit: 28-037

« Reply #168 on: August 23, 2017, 11:30:53 AM »

In some cases aren't open billets required to promote?  Another extra-program "good idea" which is unworkable in reality.

Yes. There's a "Manning Authorization" table that shows how many of each grade you can promote at each level; it doesn't include people who obtained their grade through other means. So that's a little confusing right off the bat.

But regardless, that could be part of the echelon approval.
The unit commander should know who his Squadron NCO his, and the Wing Commander should know who his Command Chief is.
If it's not that person, then they deny the request.
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Adam B
Capt, CAP
MHC5096
Forum Regular

Posts: 163
Unit: NER-NY-043

« Reply #169 on: August 23, 2017, 12:50:16 PM »

Marine Warrant Officers are a completely different animal than the other branches.  In the Marines you have to have 12 years in service and be an E6 to even apply.  There is also a considerable pay difference between a W1 and a 2nd Lt. There is also about a $1000 a month base pay difference between W1 and 2Lt.

The USN and USCG also require 12+ years TIS and attaining E-7 to E-9 to be eligible for their Warrant Officer programs. E-6s may be eligible if they have been selected for E-7.
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M. H. Crary
Lt Col, CAP (1983-Present)
BA-VIV/ADSO-HR/FSO-PV, USCG Auxiliary (2011-Present)
MSgt, USAF Ret. (1995-2011)
QM2, USN (1989-1995)
MHC5096
Forum Regular

Posts: 163
Unit: NER-NY-043

« Reply #170 on: August 23, 2017, 12:58:47 PM »

Flight Officer was a grade used by the US Army Air Corps from 1942-1945. The grade came into use with CAP some time in the 80s after we phased out our Warrant Officer program.
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M. H. Crary
Lt Col, CAP (1983-Present)
BA-VIV/ADSO-HR/FSO-PV, USCG Auxiliary (2011-Present)
MSgt, USAF Ret. (1995-2011)
QM2, USN (1989-1995)
MSG Mac
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,932
Unit: MER-MD-071

« Reply #171 on: August 23, 2017, 03:14:11 PM »

The United States Air Force no longer uses the warrant officer grade. The USAF inherited warrant officer ranks from the Army at its inception in 1947, but their place in the Air Force structure was never made clear. When Congress authorized the creation of two new senior enlisted ranks in each of the five services in 1958 (implementing them in 1959-60), Air Force officials privately concluded that these two new "super grades" of senior master sergeant and chief master sergeant (styling the incumbents as "superintendents" vice senior or staff NCOICs as does the USA and USMC) could fill all Air Force needs then performed at the warrant officer level. This was not publicly acknowledged until years later. The Air Force stopped appointing warrant officers in 1959,[22] the same year the first promotions were made to the new top enlisted grade, chief master sergeant. Most of the existing air force warrant officers entered the commissioned officer ranks during the 1960s, but tiny numbers continued to exist for the next 21 years.
The last active-duty air force chief warrant officer, CWO4 James H. Long, retired in 1980. The last Air Force Reserve chief warrant officer, CWO4 Bob Barrow, retired in 1992. Upon his retirement, Barrow was honorarily promoted to CWO5, the only person in the Air Force ever to hold this grade.[22] Barrow died in April 2008.[29] Since Barrow's retirement, Air Force warrant officer ranks, while still authorized by law, are not used.
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Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,249

« Reply #172 on: August 23, 2017, 03:28:06 PM »

Comparing CAP grade, enlisted, NCO, Warrant, or Officer, to any military organization
fails on the second question.

With few exceptions, the scope, expectations, and implementation are all incomparable for anything
more then the highest level of discussion, and even then usually leaves out important details on both sides.

The "Flight Officer" grades in CAP are literally nothing but placeholders for a niche segment of the membership
that the organization seeks to retain, but can't figure out what to do with, and in no way compare to
"Flight Officers" in any other military organization beyond the terminology and insignia.
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Toad1168
Forum Regular

Posts: 158
Unit: Missouri

« Reply #173 on: August 23, 2017, 03:49:07 PM »

Another issue with the current program...

I've been waiting (so far) three weeks for a member's promotion to SSgt.
Why can't this be handled in eServices like officer grades? I mean, I could have promoted him to 2d Lt in an instant, but SSgt takes a month? If we're trying to attract people to this program, this isn't the way to do it.

While we're talking about a oddly restrictive grade structure and it's lack of support in Eservices...

"Flight Officer" grades, anyone?
That's a FAR more confusing decision then the NCO program.
While we're all debating the merits of NCOs, the FO grades are hiding in the corner of the room, hoping no one notices them.
What's the purpose of having SMs that are younger than some cadets? Some kind of Brittney Spears syndrome (I'm not a cadet, not yet a Senior Member)?
Not only do the candy-striped Lt bars not exist anywhere in USAF, but having cadets overlap with seniors just seems to cause issues. Plus, as far as Nationals knows, they're all just SM w/o grade, anyway.

But I digress.
Why can't I submit NCO grades through eServices?

The main purpose of the Flight Officer grades is indeed a placeholder.  Most effectively used for cadets transitioning to senior before they turn 21 so there is time for the paperwork to clear.  Or for those former cadets who enlist active duty after high school but want to remain in CAP.  I've rarely seen it outside of that.
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Toad
Shieldel
Member

Posts: 86
Unit: PCR-NV-802

« Reply #174 on: August 23, 2017, 04:28:45 PM »

You guys keep saying that CAP NCO's can't command a unit, but, you might want to tell that to National HQ, PACR and CAWG. Because the current commander of Big Bear Composite Sq 6750 in Big Bear Lake, CA is a CAP CMSgt. And has been for over a year.

Chief Furnace was at NVWG Encampment this year, nice guy. Learned a lot from him as this year was my first year as a senior.

To the topic, I don't see a point in this program. Still don't, I've heard about it since I was a cadet, I see it as just another way for people to hold onto their military rank. And from my experience CAP is more of a corporate environment, so I can see why the two "sides" have clashes.

Another issue with the current program...

I've been waiting (so far) three weeks for a member's promotion to SSgt.
Why can't this be handled in eServices like officer grades? I mean, I could have promoted him to 2d Lt in an instant, but SSgt takes a month? If we're trying to attract people to this program, this isn't the way to do it.

While we're talking about a oddly restrictive grade structure and it's lack of support in Eservices...

"Flight Officer" grades, anyone?
That's a FAR more confusing decision then the NCO program.
While we're all debating the merits of NCOs, the FO grades are hiding in the corner of the room, hoping no one notices them.
What's the purpose of having SMs that are younger than some cadets? Some kind of Brittney Spears syndrome (I'm not a cadet, not yet a Senior Member)?
Not only do the candy-striped Lt bars not exist anywhere in USAF, but having cadets overlap with seniors just seems to cause issues. Plus, as far as Nationals knows, they're all just SM w/o grade, anyway.

But I digress.
Why can't I submit NCO grades through eServices?

The main purpose of the Flight Officer grades is indeed a placeholder.  Most effectively used for cadets transitioning to senior before they turn 21 so there is time for the paperwork to clear.  Or for those former cadets who enlist active duty after high school but want to remain in CAP.  I've rarely seen it outside of that.

Current Flight Officer here (for a few more months! Aging in as a "full" SM come November) yeah we're tracked on paper, nothing in eservices is logged. Still bewilders me why they haven't put us in the system, but meh what can ya do. I transferred FO/SM side at 19, I see it as more of an "in-between" phase just like Toad said.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2017, 04:31:55 PM by Shieldel » Logged
2d Lt Michael D. Scheidle
Jack Schofield Cadet Squadron
NV-802nd ES Officer
NV-802nd RRO
NV-802nd PAO
FEMA Corps Class 23 Alumni - FEMA-4277-DR-LA Deployment to Baton Rouge FEMA JFO August - October 2016
grunt82abn
Seasoned Member

Posts: 243

« Reply #175 on: August 23, 2017, 04:36:43 PM »

Really is no need for anyone to clash! Some aspects are like the corporate world and some are military. Regardless of what rank you hold, or which side of the fence you chose, as long as the mission is accomplished safely and according to regulation is the only thing that matters.


TSGT Sean Riley
IL-042
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Sean Riley, TSGT
US Army 1987 to 1994, WIARNG 1994 to 2008
DoD Firefighter Paramedic 2000 to Present
Shieldel
Member

Posts: 86
Unit: PCR-NV-802

« Reply #176 on: August 23, 2017, 04:53:33 PM »

Really is no need for anyone to clash! Some aspects are like the corporate world and some are military. Regardless of what rank you hold, or which side of the fence you chose, as long as the mission is accomplished safely and according to regulation is the only thing that matters.


TSGT Sean Riley
IL-042

Clearly there's clashes though Sergeant, I mean heck, look at a few pages back when you went on the defensive (rightfully so though I will concede, other board users pushed you to go defense). I'm really not trying to beat the dead horse or argue (although I think I'm doing both so I'll leave it "at that" after this comment) but the NCO Corps has been "spinning up" for THREE national commanders. WHERE do we draw the line as far as "ok this has gone on long enough, clearly it won't work?" I see Master Sgt Harris (from my now former squadron on Nellis AFB) has chimed in here now after reading all pages to this point. It's great "Things" are coming. However I'm an avid gamer and we hear that all the time with games. "Things" are coming, *delayed* things are coming *delay*, eventually people will move on. And as stated in previous comments, exactly that is happening, the NCO Program is fading away because "things are STILL coming".

I personally see no point in this program. But I'm glad you as a retired NCO are a CAP member. I find the "mission and people first" attitude makes these folks fine CAP members, and I've seen that first hand with Sgt Harris on base when I was NV-069.

*Edited for grammar
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2d Lt Michael D. Scheidle
Jack Schofield Cadet Squadron
NV-802nd ES Officer
NV-802nd RRO
NV-802nd PAO
FEMA Corps Class 23 Alumni - FEMA-4277-DR-LA Deployment to Baton Rouge FEMA JFO August - October 2016
grunt82abn
Seasoned Member

Posts: 243

« Reply #177 on: August 23, 2017, 05:04:27 PM »

Really is no need for anyone to clash! Some aspects are like the corporate world and some are military. Regardless of what rank you hold, or which side of the fence you chose, as long as the mission is accomplished safely and according to regulation is the only thing that matters.


TSGT Sean Riley
IL-042

Clearly there's clashes though Sergeant, I mean heck, look at a few pages back when you went on the defensive (rightfully so though I will concede, other board users pushed you to go defense). I'm really not trying to beat the dead horse or argue (although I think I'm doing both so I'll leave it "at that" after this comment) but the NCO Corps has been "spinning up" for THREE national commanders. WHERE do we draw the line as far as "ok this has gone on long enough, clearly it won't work?" I see Master Sgt Harris (from my now former squadron on Nellis AFB) has chimed in here now after reading all pages to this point. It's great "Things" are coming. However I'm an avid gamer and we hear that all the time with games. "Things" are coming, *delayed* things are coming *delay*, eventually people will move on. And as stated in previous comments, exactly that is happening, the NCO Program is fading away because "things are STILL coming".

I personally see no point in this program. But I'm glad you as a retired NCO are a CAP member. I find the "mission and people first" attitude makes these folks fine CAP members, and I've seen that first hand with Sgt Harris on base when I was NV-069.

*Edited for grammar
If it doesn't work, so be it! Cross that bridge when we get to it. Then I'll just have to sow on whatever rank they tell me to. Hell, might just stay at the SM rank and just do what's expected of me.


TSGT Sean Riley
IL-042
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Sean Riley, TSGT
US Army 1987 to 1994, WIARNG 1994 to 2008
DoD Firefighter Paramedic 2000 to Present
Ned
Resident Philosopher

Posts: 2,201

« Reply #178 on: August 23, 2017, 06:22:55 PM »

[ WHERE do we draw the line as far as "ok this has gone on long enough, clearly it won't work?"

It is again worth remembering that we have had NCOs since WWII.  We have somehow managed to be successful in the sense that we have performed our missions exceptionally well, even with a few  NCOs lurking in our ranks.  We have saved hundreds of lives; graduated thousands from our successful cadet program, and educated members and the public about Things Aerospace. 

The latest attempt to tweak the existing program would provide additional promotion and educational opportunities.  Until such time, if any, that changes to our existing regulations are made, we will just drive on as we have for a couple of decades with the existing rules.

CAPTalk is free to draw the line anytime the group chooses to do so.

(As I mentioned before, each of us seems to have opinions about how the program should be modified, or even whether we should have NCOs at all.  We talk about it a lot.  Nobody seems to change their mind or be persuaded by anyone else, so we talk about it some more.)

There is literally "nothing to see here," time to move along.

Ned Lee
Cadet Programs Guy and CAP NCO Enthusiast
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PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,315

« Reply #179 on: August 23, 2017, 09:40:12 PM »

Wouldn't it be more economical to slot many rated positions as warrant officer slots, as the Army does with helicopter pilots? Perhaps Navy & USMC should do the same.

The Navy did so for a while, under a programme called "Warrant Officer-to-Pilot."  Inexplicably, though, they did not continue it, nor did any of these warrants fly F/A-18's; they were restricted to rotary-wing, patrol and Electronic Attack.

http://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=22072

I never understood the Air Force's (or CAP's) aversion to warrant officers.

The Coast Guard does quite well with them, as does the Army (I have no experience with USMC WO's).  The Army's aviation warrant slots are the only way I know that someone without a college degree can come in off the street without a four-year degree and earn officer status.

The "Chief's Mafia" has made sure that the Air Force will not have Warrant Officers. Many E-8's and E-9's perform duties that were formerly performed by Warrant Officers and the Chiefs see any kind of return of the Warrants as a threat to them. And the Chief's seem to very, very good at making sure they get their way on this too.
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: NCO selling points and benefits??
 


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