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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: NCO selling points and benefits??
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wacapgh
Seasoned Member

Posts: 202

« Reply #140 on: August 16, 2017, 03:01:47 PM »

The new promotion criteria for NCO, as many have noriced, is based on the position a person holds. If you want to make MSgt, you need to step up and work as a Squadron NCO.  Want to make SMsgt? You need to start taking positions outside the squadron. I don't see this as a negative. Why not expand it and apply it to officers? Want to be a Captain? You have serve as a squadron commander. Want to make Major? Better start looking for that Group CC job.

Which would bring us back to how it was up through the 1970's, and maybe a bit into the 1980's.

Promotion was not tied to PD advancement, so few members progressed in PD. To get more participation in PD, grade was decoupled from position and tied solely to PD and TIG. Fast forward 40 years "We need to make grade tied to position, not PD."

 ???
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Майор Хаткевич
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Posts: 6,059
Unit: GLR-IL-049

« Reply #141 on: August 16, 2017, 03:39:51 PM »

The new promotion criteria for NCO, as many have noriced, is based on the position a person holds. If you want to make MSgt, you need to step up and work as a Squadron NCO.  Want to make SMsgt? You need to start taking positions outside the squadron. I don't see this as a negative. Why not expand it and apply it to officers? Want to be a Captain? You have serve as a squadron commander. Want to make Major? Better start looking for that Group CC job.

Which would bring us back to how it was up through the 1970's, and maybe a bit into the 1980's.

Promotion was not tied to PD advancement, so few members progressed in PD. To get more participation in PD, grade was decoupled from position and tied solely to PD and TIG. Fast forward 40 years "We need to make grade tied to position, not PD."

 ???


I pursued PD for the promotion eligibility. But to be honest, little of benefit was learned in most of it. We need to revamp our PD, and change the stupid names we use. SLS/CLC being the primary offenders. By no means am I the smartest person in the room, but even in my early/mid 20s those two were of little actual benefit, and one rehashed the other. The best course? TLC. But perhaps it's because it's mostly based on discussion, sharing ideas and solutions and the name matches the material.
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Alaric
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 782

« Reply #142 on: August 16, 2017, 04:13:23 PM »

The new promotion criteria for NCO, as many have noriced, is based on the position a person holds. If you want to make MSgt, you need to step up and work as a Squadron NCO.  Want to make SMsgt? You need to start taking positions outside the squadron. I don't see this as a negative. Why not expand it and apply it to officers? Want to be a Captain? You have serve as a squadron commander. Want to make Major? Better start looking for that Group CC job.

Which would bring us back to how it was up through the 1970's, and maybe a bit into the 1980's.

Promotion was not tied to PD advancement, so few members progressed in PD. To get more participation in PD, grade was decoupled from position and tied solely to PD and TIG. Fast forward 40 years "We need to make grade tied to position, not PD."

 ???


I pursued PD for the promotion eligibility. But to be honest, little of benefit was learned in most of it. We need to revamp our PD, and change the stupid names we use. SLS/CLC being the primary offenders. By no means am I the smartest person in the room, but even in my early/mid 20s those two were of little actual benefit, and one rehashed the other. The best course? TLC. But perhaps it's because it's mostly based on discussion, sharing ideas and solutions and the name matches the material.

I don't disagree that there needs to be a PD revamp, but I found SLS very useful perhaps because I took it 3 months after joining and I had never been a cadet before.  Same with CLC which I took not too long afterwards.
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FW
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,182

« Reply #143 on: August 16, 2017, 04:19:56 PM »


But our CP would be measurably better if we had one or two experienced NCOs at each cadet and composite unit.

Ned Lee
National Cadet Program Manager

This is standard practice for JROTC, so I don't understand the heartburn with seeing similar value in the CAP CP.

JROTC instructors are retired military Officers and NCO's.  They are also part time PAID faculty of the school they are assigned to. If the Air Force ever wants to pay retired NCO's to augment CAP squadrons..... Let's say I would love to see that, however it would not be part of the CAP "system". 
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Ned
Resident Philosopher

Posts: 2,201

« Reply #144 on: August 16, 2017, 04:33:35 PM »


JROTC instructors are retired military Officers and NCO's.  They are also part time PAID faculty of the school they are assigned to. If the Air Force ever wants to pay retired NCO's to augment CAP squadrons..... Let's say I would love to see that.

"From your lips to God's ears . . ."

Ned Lee
Retired Military Officer Available for Paid Work with CAP

 8)
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abdsp51
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,591
Unit: Classified

« Reply #145 on: August 16, 2017, 08:50:18 PM »

We really need to quit comparing apples to oranges and bananas.  At the end of the day we have an NCO program that there is no clear cut job descriptions or even real expectations of what a CAP NCO is suppose to do.  The more these threads appear the more I shake my head.  Honestly NHQ needs to better define this with legit and realistic expectations and duty descriptions, then we can talk about the differences etc. And really lets can all this talk about strategic, tactical leadership etc and get something defined before the chest thumping starts.

Questions I have posed that still remain unanswered:

What is the purpose of this?  (make CAP better or what other drivel doesn't cut it)

What can a "CAP NCO" do that is currently not being done by CAP officers especially those officers who are NCOs?

In the end run I see this as a product of the good idea fairy that was has been poorly executed and your end result is the lack of buy in and support. 
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lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,654

« Reply #146 on: August 17, 2017, 01:54:31 AM »

For everyone saying the NCO program brings nothing to the organization, you're a bit premature. We don't know if the program will solve any problems or create more. Because we Don't know what they program is yet.  National has a working group headed by Chief Eldridge, the CAP Command Chief, and I have every confidence they are working on it to bring something positive to CAP.

It's been 4 YEARS

How much more time is needed to decide what the program will be? I've said it before, but very soon, the THIRD National Commander will have this on their desk. Saying "they are working on it", isn't very promising.
So?  We are working on it.  We got lots and lots of changes approved and ready to roll out to the rank and file.   Most of them are jammed up in the regulation re-writes.   How long has that been going on?   CAP is slow.   It always has been.   Nothing new here and it is not about to change.

Bottom line is......We are moving forward on the CAP NCO program.   Information will be provided when it is appropriate.

Believe it or not....we actually like your feed back...and we are taking it into consideration.    But other then the standard "I don't see the need" mantra repeated over and over again.....I have not seen any new arguments of why we should NOT have an NCO corps.

That it is taking so long is very frustrating.   Believe me we on the NCO committee feel your pain.  But CAP is what it is and we have wait for the gear to move at their own pace.

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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
Mitchell 1969
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Posts: 844
Unit: PCR-CA-051

« Reply #147 on: August 17, 2017, 02:29:11 AM »


Believe it or not....we actually like your feed back...and we are taking it into consideration.    But other then the standard "I don't see the need" mantra repeated over and over again.....I have not seen any new arguments of why we should NOT have an NCO corps.

Let's say for a second that a need is seen. Let's also say that I don't try to make an argument as to WHY CAP should not have an NCO corps.

Instead, what if I say that I don't see HOW there can be a CAP NCO corps as I have heard some of the. visionaries describe it?

The vision that Ned described a few posts earlier sounds great. But where is the spigot which sends forth  those NCOs?

CAP already has a means for them to join. But, crank up the recruitment effort,  maybe bring in a few more. Then what? How many military NCOs have a burning desire to mentor cadets? We can say that they have skills and experience, but, desire and interest? What if they want to fly and aren't particularly interested in cadets? Or, what if they are experienced MTIs/Drill sergeants etc. What makes us think they want to volunteer to do for free what they get paid (or used to get paid) to do? Or, what if their NCO career was spent in fiscal operations? How many NCOs does CAP  need at a Squadron or group to process reimbursement forms?

The vision, with 1-2 NCOs per unit, plus people at higher HAs, plus turnover, calls for thousands of military NCOS. The reality will be more like hundreds. If it is opened to people without military NCO experience, then slots could certainly be filled and CAP could say "Look, NCOs in every unit, leadership, mentors, backbone, stripes ...," but they won't really be the NCOs as envisioned, will they? Because there will be no way to turn an off-the-street volunteer into an experienced  NCO mentor backed by 12-20-30 years of military NCO experience and wisdom. The end result will be a CAP volunteer with stripes. That is t to say that person has no worth, but it doesn't give any change from today's reality.

So, not asking what's the point, I'm asking how can it actually be delivered? Where will CAP find all of the NCOs, real NCOs,  weder to staff units with the real NCOs that are in the vision?
« Last Edit: August 17, 2017, 02:33:17 AM by Mitchell 1969 » Logged
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Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,654

« Reply #148 on: August 17, 2017, 05:48:19 AM »

We find them the same place where we find all CAP members.

As for turning an off the street person into and NCO....sure we can.  We are working on that right now with the NCO specific PD courses. 

As for any change from today's reality.....you are right.  It is still some non-veteran wearing a uniform and a rank that he/she did not "earn" in the military doing the good work that CAP members do today. 





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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
CS
Recruit

Posts: 35

« Reply #149 on: August 17, 2017, 08:11:57 AM »

We seem to spend a lot of time and effort on this, while ignoring the majority of potential members. By failing to recognize "professional" training and education in the real world of industry.  We have many highly trained Corporate Leaders, who never get their "professional " education or "experience" recognized by CAP.  Let's face it the majority of what we do is CORPORATE, as are the majority of our members.
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Adam B
Recruit

Posts: 32
Unit: 28-037

« Reply #150 on: August 17, 2017, 02:42:00 PM »

The problem I have with the current NCO worshiping is that being a military NCO doesn't actually make you more qualified to administer the cadet program, and all of the "for" arguments seem to revolve around the CP aspect. There's some idea that they received elite military training in supervising gaggles of 14 year old kids. Our cadets are generally quite mature, I'll give them that, but adult soldiers, they are not. Atop that, we have all of our own regulations: uniforms, CP, PD, logistics, operations, etc. Understanding the UCMJ, FM3-06, or NAVPERS 15665I, isn't going to apply directly to CAP any more than it would if you joined the local Fire Department.
If there's anyone who should get recognition for their relevant experience, it's probably teachers and business professionals, like CS said.   

I've got nothing against folks wearing stripes, but if you believe that a set of stripes makes you some kind of CAP elite special forces, you are mistaken. The member with the "unearned" Lt Col insignia is still your superior for a reason.

And what happens once they open the NCO grades to every new member? Then they'll complain that the NCO grades are too watered down, just like the officer grades are now. What's next Warrant Officers?

Are stripes just the new berets?
Is this really just a uniform issue?

Probably, yes.
At least for now.
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Adam B
Capt, CAP
arajca
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,301

« Reply #151 on: August 17, 2017, 03:19:42 PM »

And what happens once they open the NCO grades to every new member? Then they'll complain that the NCO grades are too watered down, just like the officer grades are now. What's next Warrant Officers?

Actually, they canned a WO program suggestion in favor of the NCO program dream.

IMO, a Warrant Officer program make more sense than an NCO program, but, I'm just a lowly member with an 'unearned' Lt Col grade. What do I know?
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Gunsotsu
Member

Posts: 92

« Reply #152 on: August 17, 2017, 08:31:28 PM »

And still, in eight pages of responses, I've yet to see one compelling reason to even have an NCO grade program for senior members. When it comes down to brass tacks, it's dangling carrots for members (current or potential) that somehow still haven't grasped the concept that the bars or leaves on one's collar are a meaningless affectation, and shouldn't be taken at all seriously. 

I do like the earlier suggestion of just getting rid of the grades for senior members all together. Even if it was just in jest. Bag on them as we must, but at least that's one thing the CGAux gets right. Let our cadets (rightfully) worry about stripes, circles, or diamonds, and just let us do our jobs.
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ZigZag911
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Posts: 1,986

« Reply #153 on: August 18, 2017, 01:29:41 AM »

We have been hearing for years that an NCO program is "under development", but have yet to see any results.

Neither has there been any transparency whatsoever.

Is there a draft under review?

Will comments be solicited from command echelons or from the field before it is set in stone?

Finally, I have to comment on one response we've seen repeatedly -- that, even though many question the purpose of a CAP NCO corps, it is coming, end of discussion.

Nevertheless, there has been no clear presentation regarding aims, purposes or benefits.

I have nothing but respect for the professional NCOs of America's uniformed services. If CAP has an NCO corps, as we've been doing for some years, simply to make actual military NCOs feel welcome and comfortable as CAP members, fine, by all means, continue.

If there is some benefit to having a more fully developed CAP NCO program, that's fine, too...but the secrecy, lack of explanation and absence of clear purpose (as distinct from CAP officers) is getting ridiculous.
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kwe1009
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Posts: 915

« Reply #154 on: August 18, 2017, 08:16:18 AM »

We have been hearing for years that an NCO program is "under development", but have yet to see any results.

Neither has there been any transparency whatsoever.

Is there a draft under review?

Will comments be solicited from command echelons or from the field before it is set in stone?

Finally, I have to comment on one response we've seen repeatedly -- that, even though many question the purpose of a CAP NCO corps, it is coming, end of discussion.

Nevertheless, there has been no clear presentation regarding aims, purposes or benefits.

I have nothing but respect for the professional NCOs of America's uniformed services. If CAP has an NCO corps, as we've been doing for some years, simply to make actual military NCOs feel welcome and comfortable as CAP members, fine, by all means, continue.

If there is some benefit to having a more fully developed CAP NCO program, that's fine, too...but the secrecy, lack of explanation and absence of clear purpose (as distinct from CAP officers) is getting ridiculous.

These are all very valid points.  How were the super secret group of people putting this plan together selected?  There are a great number of current/former NCO serving as CAP officers.  Did a call go out to them to help put this program together?  I don't remember seeing any announcement.
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Fubar
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Posts: 737

« Reply #155 on: August 18, 2017, 05:02:37 PM »

These are all very valid points.  How were the super secret group of people putting this plan together selected?  There are a great number of current/former NCO serving as CAP officers.  Did a call go out to them to help put this program together?  I don't remember seeing any announcement.

First rule of the super secret NCO club is you don't talk about the super secret NCO club.
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grunt82abn
Seasoned Member

Posts: 243

« Reply #156 on: August 18, 2017, 06:00:15 PM »

These are all very valid points.  How were the super secret group of people putting this plan together selected?  There are a great number of current/former NCO serving as CAP officers.  Did a call go out to them to help put this program together?  I don't remember seeing any announcement.

First rule of the super secret NCO club is you don't talk about the super secret NCO club.
The second rule of the super secret NCO club is: you do not talk about Super Secret NCO club!


TSGT Sean Riley
IL-042
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Sean Riley, TSGT
US Army 1987 to 1994, WIARNG 1994 to 2008
DoD Firefighter Paramedic 2000 to Present
Mitchell 1969
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 844
Unit: PCR-CA-051

« Reply #157 on: August 18, 2017, 07:20:25 PM »

We have been hearing for years that an NCO program is "under development", but have yet to see any results.

Neither has there been any transparency whatsoever.

Is there a draft under review?

Will comments be solicited from command echelons or from the field before it is set in stone?

Finally, I have to comment on one response we've seen repeatedly -- that, even though many question the purpose of a CAP NCO corps, it is coming, end of discussion.

Nevertheless, there has been no clear presentation regarding aims, purposes or benefits.

I have nothing but respect for the professional NCOs of America's uniformed services. If CAP has an NCO corps, as we've been doing for some years, simply to make actual military NCOs feel welcome and comfortable as CAP members, fine, by all means, continue.

If there is some benefit to having a more fully developed CAP NCO program, that's fine, too...but the secrecy, lack of explanation and absence of clear purpose (as distinct from CAP officers) is getting ridiculous.

These are all very valid points.  How were the super secret group of people putting this plan together selected?  There are a great number of current/former NCO serving as CAP officers.  Did a call go out to them to help put this program together?  I don't remember seeing any announcement.

I would hope that the "secret let's do NCO" group would include at least a couple of reps from the "I'm not convinced, but I'm an honest guy and willing to give it a fair shake" contingent, if only for balance and to validate suppositions - or ask for further justication.
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_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
jeders
Global Moderator

Posts: 2,112

« Reply #158 on: August 21, 2017, 11:36:52 AM »

What I find truly interesting is that we're all here arguing about whether or not CAP needs to add a real NCO program at the same time that there is at least one Air Force officer arguing for eliminating all rank in the military. It's almost as if someone thinks that an artificial divide between Os and Es is unnecessary in today's world.

https://www.airforcetimes.com/opinion/commentary/2017/08/20/commentary-the-rank-structure-is-holding-us-back-its-time-for-drastic-change/
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If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse
ZigZag911
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,986

« Reply #159 on: August 22, 2017, 01:07:30 AM »

The 'let's get rid of rank' approach has been tried before, generally did not work out well.

One notable example was Mao's Road Army during the early stages of WW2, when it was basically still just Japan vs. China (which was busy fighting its own civil war, Communists vs. Nationalists).

Of course we know that Communist China to this day is a society without either class or rank among its populace  (yeah sure!)

A US Marine reserve officer, Evans Carlson, was a neutral US observer during this conflict, prior to war breaking out in Europe and our entry after Pearl Harbor.

He was so impressed with what he saw, he tried a modified version in the Marine Raider battalion he commanded for awhile. It made everyone, enlisted and officer alike, uncomfortable.

Possibly some changes would be beneficial. I'm not certain what those might be, but it's certainly worth consideration. For instance, does the Army need lieutenant colonels commanding finance "battalions" of 40 people??

Does the Air Force need so many rated commissioned officers? They're not all slated for wing or higher command. Many, in fact, want to remain in their pilot or aircrew position throughout their careers. Wouldn't it be more economical to slot many rated positions as warrant officer slots, as the Army does with helicopter pilots? Perhaps Navy & USMC should do the same.

Bottom line: human beings are hierarchical and territorial. So you may modernize the system, but you're not going to change human nature.
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