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Ozzy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 361
Unit: GA

« Reply #120 on: August 15, 2017, 09:12:59 AM »

If allowing 200-300 members to wear NCO rank, and that gets them through the door, and allows them to become viable members for CAP, then I guess the recruiting tool worked. We gained members we would have otherwise have gotten.

We gained 200-300 members from tweaking the NCO program?

Current numbers is about 150 senior members in the NCO program currently... and that number does include those who switched from the officer side to the NCO side so the amount of actual people recruited because of the NCO program is actually quite small.
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Ozyilmaz, TSgt, CAP
C/Lt. Colonel (Ret.)

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Gunsotsu
Member

Posts: 93

« Reply #121 on: August 15, 2017, 12:53:45 PM »

Simplest solution:

NCOs act as first level leadership of enlisted personnel.
CAP has no enlisted ranks in it's senior program.

There's absolutely no reason for CAP to have an NCO program outside of (yes) stroking the egos of prior service members. If prior service members (of which I am) are so delicate that they can't stand the notion of wearing the accouterments, then perhaps they should reassess their reasons for participating in the program. 
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County
Recruit

Posts: 14

« Reply #122 on: August 15, 2017, 01:07:10 PM »

Funny that you choose the word, "delicate". 
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TSgt
grunt82abn
Seasoned Member

Posts: 243

« Reply #123 on: August 15, 2017, 01:51:15 PM »

Funny that you choose the word, "delicate".
Right!


TSGT Sean Riley
IL-042
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Sean Riley, TSGT
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Ozzy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 361
Unit: GA

« Reply #124 on: August 15, 2017, 03:52:14 PM »




There's absolutely no reason for CAP to have an NCO program outside of (yes) stroking the egos of prior service members.

It could be said that there is very little reason to have any grade in CAP at all other then the cadet side, yet we still have it.
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Ozyilmaz, TSgt, CAP
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Ned
Resident Philosopher

Posts: 2,202

« Reply #125 on: August 15, 2017, 04:49:53 PM »

We discuss the NCO role in CAP comparatively often here on CAP-Talk.  We generally kick it around a bit, and then realize that everyone seems to have their own opinions on the subject.  Almost all sincerely held by reasonable leaders.  Often passionately held.

Then we realize that no one ever really changes their opinion, and we just sort of move on to something else.  Usually uniforms or complaining about the national leadership.



But because I haven't participated in this particular thread, let me contribute by noting that NCOs are nothing particularly new in CAP.  They were in our structure during WWII, and we have them today. 

We don't really have an "NCO Program" to attack or defend, anymore than we have an "Officer Program."  We mostly just have hard-working CAP volunteers doing their jobs performing Missions for America.

But, FWIW, I strongly support having NCOs in our structure, and fervently wished we had a bunch more.

Just in the Cadet Program tent, I could put 1200 CAP NCOs to work tomorrow by assigning one or two to each cadet and composite unit to serve as Leadership Officers.  Essentially by definition, NCOs have years of experience mentoring and developing junior leaders in a military environment.  And since every single cadet must develop their followership and  leadership skills initially as an airman and cadet NCO, senior member NCOs could and would provide outstanding and needed support.

(Of course, we have a terrific CP without significant numbers of CAP NCOs, so I can't claim that CAP NCOs are absolutely crucial.) 

But our CP would be measurably better if we had one or two experienced NCOs at each cadet and composite unit.

If  we had a mature CAP senior member enlisted/NCO structure in CP, at the squadron I would expect to see SSgts and Tsgts working more or less directly with the troops; directly monitoring training and mentoring the cadet instructors for things like D & C, and acting as instructors.  I would normally expect senior NCOs (MSgt +) to do things like training schedules, coordinate and rehearse instructors, mentor both the junior NCOs and the cadet staff, conduct CP-related professional development for the senior member side, and also serve in additional duties for the unit as a whole (things like unit First Sergeant, Personnel and Admin NCO, etc.).

At the group, wing, and region level I would expect senior NCOs to work as SMEs in CP.  I would probably see them working on CI and SAV teams, maintaining associated records and providing administrative support, directly coordinating with their counterparts at lower and higher levels, planning CP activities at their level, producing reports and maintaining electronic data, and mentoring and training NCOs at lower echelons.

At things like encampments, NCOs would provide valuable support on the tactical staff, liaisoning with host facilities, as well as serving as  logisticians and administrators. 

And at all levels, NCOs - like all SMs - would be eligible for the dreaded "similar and related duties as required."  8)

(Remember, this is a vision for a mature and self-generating enlisted structure, NOT what we have today.  Today, our NCOs come to us pre-trained in leadership and organizational skills by Uncle Sam and all we have to add are the CAP-specific skills.  This may well change as we continue tweak the program to allow non-prior service CAP NCOs).

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

(And I managed to avoid using the term "ego-stoking.")


Ned Lee
National Cadet Program Manager
« Last Edit: August 15, 2017, 05:04:50 PM by Ned » Logged
SMsgt Jung
Newbie

Posts: 2
Unit: SER-FL-001

« Reply #126 on: August 15, 2017, 05:29:35 PM »

Wait, what?  Me choosing to wear my earned grade from the parent service of this organization is ego-stroking?  And the handing out of shiny pins at 6 months and the ability to maintain breathing and sending checks isn't?

How about I continue to wear my stripes and do what I do, and the dime-a-dozen officers keep performing at the level of glorified E-3s, and let me do it. They'll get the credit and move along. I'm cool with that because I live for mission accomplishment and taking care of my people, which is NCO business.

The probable outcome if tomorrow all senior members were re-graded into a new structure, aligned with their parent service that put them in grade according to their job, would be a mass exodus of members.  All these cats want to be #TotalForce but when it comes to what they wear, they start waiving their CAP union card because they're too good to be a lowly Airman.

We knowingly took a track that we feel fits us best to make the most contribution to this organization. We pay way more for insignia than the officers we follow. My ego is so stroked right now.

Whatever, dude.
Well stated brother . Can't swing a dead cat at a mission base without hitting a Lt.col


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« Last Edit: August 15, 2017, 05:39:12 PM by SMsgt Jung » Logged
SMsgt, Scott Jung, CAP
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« Reply #127 on: August 15, 2017, 05:44:47 PM »

We discuss the NCO role in CAP comparatively often here on CAP-Talk.  We generally kick it around a bit, and then realize that everyone seems to have their own opinions on the subject.  Almost all sincerely held by reasonable leaders.  Often passionately held.

Then we realize that no one ever really changes their opinion, and we just sort of move on to something else.  Usually uniforms or complaining about the national leadership.



But because I haven't participated in this particular thread, let me contribute by noting that NCOs are nothing particularly new in CAP.  They were in our structure during WWII, and we have them today. 

We don't really have an "NCO Program" to attack or defend, anymore than we have an "Officer Program."  We mostly just have hard-working CAP volunteers doing their jobs performing Missions for America.

But, FWIW, I strongly support having NCOs in our structure, and fervently wished we had a bunch more.

Just in the Cadet Program tent, I could put 1200 CAP NCOs to work tomorrow by assigning one or two to each cadet and composite unit to serve as Leadership Officers.  Essentially by definition, NCOs have years of experience mentoring and developing junior leaders in a military environment.  And since every single cadet must develop their followership and  leadership skills initially as an airman and cadet NCO, senior member NCOs could and would provide outstanding and needed support.

(Of course, we have a terrific CP without significant numbers of CAP NCOs, so I can't claim that CAP NCOs are absolutely crucial.) 

But our CP would be measurably better if we had one or two experienced NCOs at each cadet and composite unit.

If  we had a mature CAP senior member enlisted/NCO structure in CP, at the squadron I would expect to see SSgts and Tsgts working more or less directly with the troops; directly monitoring training and mentoring the cadet instructors for things like D & C, and acting as instructors.  I would normally expect senior NCOs (MSgt +) to do things like training schedules, coordinate and rehearse instructors, mentor both the junior NCOs and the cadet staff, conduct CP-related professional development for the senior member side, and also serve in additional duties for the unit as a whole (things like unit First Sergeant, Personnel and Admin NCO, etc.).

At the group, wing, and region level I would expect senior NCOs to work as SMEs in CP.  I would probably see them working on CI and SAV teams, maintaining associated records and providing administrative support, directly coordinating with their counterparts at lower and higher levels, planning CP activities at their level, producing reports and maintaining electronic data, and mentoring and training NCOs at lower echelons.

At things like encampments, NCOs would provide valuable support on the tactical staff, liaisoning with host facilities, as well as serving as  logisticians and administrators. 

And at all levels, NCOs - like all SMs - would be eligible for the dreaded "similar and related duties as required."  8)

(Remember, this is a vision for a mature and self-generating enlisted structure, NOT what we have today.  Today, our NCOs come to us pre-trained in leadership and organizational skills by Uncle Sam and all we have to add are the CAP-specific skills.  This may well change as we continue tweak the program to allow non-prior service CAP NCOs).

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

(And I managed to avoid using the term "ego-stoking.")


Ned Lee
National Cadet Program Manager

Just word-replace "NCO" with "member".

I would imagine the field would like to know where all these new members are coming from as well. The national leadership insinuated
3 years ago that there were hordes of military NCOs who were chomping at the bit to join CAP, yet where are they?
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grunt82abn
Seasoned Member

Posts: 243

« Reply #128 on: August 15, 2017, 06:04:40 PM »

We discuss the NCO role in CAP comparatively often here on CAP-Talk.  We generally kick it around a bit, and then realize that everyone seems to have their own opinions on the subject.  Almost all sincerely held by reasonable leaders.  Often passionately held.

Then we realize that no one ever really changes their opinion, and we just sort of move on to something else.  Usually uniforms or complaining about the national leadership.



But because I haven't participated in this particular thread, let me contribute by noting that NCOs are nothing particularly new in CAP.  They were in our structure during WWII, and we have them today. 

We don't really have an "NCO Program" to attack or defend, anymore than we have an "Officer Program."  We mostly just have hard-working CAP volunteers doing their jobs performing Missions for America.

But, FWIW, I strongly support having NCOs in our structure, and fervently wished we had a bunch more.

Just in the Cadet Program tent, I could put 1200 CAP NCOs to work tomorrow by assigning one or two to each cadet and composite unit to serve as Leadership Officers.  Essentially by definition, NCOs have years of experience mentoring and developing junior leaders in a military environment.  And since every single cadet must develop their followership and  leadership skills initially as an airman and cadet NCO, senior member NCOs could and would provide outstanding and needed support.

(Of course, we have a terrific CP without significant numbers of CAP NCOs, so I can't claim that CAP NCOs are absolutely crucial.) 

But our CP would be measurably better if we had one or two experienced NCOs at each cadet and composite unit.

If  we had a mature CAP senior member enlisted/NCO structure in CP, at the squadron I would expect to see SSgts and Tsgts working more or less directly with the troops; directly monitoring training and mentoring the cadet instructors for things like D & C, and acting as instructors.  I would normally expect senior NCOs (MSgt +) to do things like training schedules, coordinate and rehearse instructors, mentor both the junior NCOs and the cadet staff, conduct CP-related professional development for the senior member side, and also serve in additional duties for the unit as a whole (things like unit First Sergeant, Personnel and Admin NCO, etc.).

At the group, wing, and region level I would expect senior NCOs to work as SMEs in CP.  I would probably see them working on CI and SAV teams, maintaining associated records and providing administrative support, directly coordinating with their counterparts at lower and higher levels, planning CP activities at their level, producing reports and maintaining electronic data, and mentoring and training NCOs at lower echelons.

At things like encampments, NCOs would provide valuable support on the tactical staff, liaisoning with host facilities, as well as serving as  logisticians and administrators. 

And at all levels, NCOs - like all SMs - would be eligible for the dreaded "similar and related duties as required."  8)

(Remember, this is a vision for a mature and self-generating enlisted structure, NOT what we have today.  Today, our NCOs come to us pre-trained in leadership and organizational skills by Uncle Sam and all we have to add are the CAP-specific skills.  This may well change as we continue tweak the program to allow non-prior service CAP NCOs).

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

(And I managed to avoid using the term "ego-stoking.")


Ned Lee
National Cadet Program Manager
For what it's worth, I like your two cents!


TSGT Sean Riley
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Sean Riley, TSGT
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« Reply #129 on: August 16, 2017, 08:22:58 AM »

Quote
I would imagine the field would like to know where all these new members are coming from as well. The national leadership insinuated
3 years ago that there were hordes of military NCOs who were chomping at the bit to join CAP, yet where are they?

There actually are more NCOs in CAP than there were when all this started up -- possibly twice or three times as many.  Though when you're starting from almost nothing the actual numbers aren't impressive. 

The "program" has all that it it supposedly needed in that there is a now a path for promotion within the NCO corps.   

So, how is it doing?  Are we getting any members joining specifically for the NCO program or are they folks that were well on their way to joining CAP and becoming officers and after learning about the NCO option went that way?  Are they folks that were officers that switched?  Is NCO retention worse, the same, or better than CAP officers both in the first year after joining and later? 

The one thing we can say for sure is that people are not beating down CAP's doors to join as NCOs.  But, we may learn a little more about the "draw" of the program by looking at the ones we do have.  CAP needs thousands of new members every year just to stay even and it doesn't look like they're coming in for this. 
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CyBorgII
Member

Posts: 56
Unit: USCG AUX

« Reply #130 on: August 16, 2017, 12:03:45 PM »

If I were ever allowed to/had the desire to rejoin CAP, I would want to do it as an NCO, to avoid the officer promotion head games.  If I were still a member and could qualify for it I would have gladly traded my railway tracks for stripes.

Unfortunately I would not qualify as E-5 is the minimum and I just fell short of that in the ANG.

But I think that what CAP is doing now with the new promotion requirements to field grades will bring some honesty to the officer levels as well, by thinning out the field grades.

If, back when I first joined in 1993, I had been told "you will most likely top out at Captain," I could have lived with that, instead of being led to believe that I could wear butterballs/silverballs one day.

The idea of being saluted and called "sir" (which we do not do with one another in the CGAUX, though of course we are required to do so with actual military warrant/commissioned officers) really does not mean anything good, bad or indifferent to me.

I can wear my FSO shoulder boards/gold bars and be quite content with that.  I could have been equally content with wearing stripes.  After all, I did so in the Guard.
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Whaddaya mean I ain't kind?  I'm just not YOUR kind!

Ex-CAP Captain, now CG Auxiliary, but still feel a great deal of affection for the many good people in CAP.
vorteks
Seasoned Member

Posts: 254

« Reply #131 on: August 16, 2017, 12:37:19 PM »

Sorry but doesn't the CGAUX have its own forum?
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Jester
Seasoned Member

Posts: 358

« Reply #132 on: August 16, 2017, 12:45:20 PM »


But our CP would be measurably better if we had one or two experienced NCOs at each cadet and composite unit.

Ned Lee
National Cadet Program Manager

This is standard practice for JROTC, so I don't understand the heartburn with seeing similar value in the CAP CP.
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Jester
Seasoned Member

Posts: 358

« Reply #133 on: August 16, 2017, 12:47:17 PM »

Are we getting any members joining specifically for the NCO program
 

*raises hand

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Jester
Seasoned Member

Posts: 358

« Reply #134 on: August 16, 2017, 12:48:44 PM »

Unfortunately I would not qualify as E-5 is the minimum and I just fell short of that in the ANG.



Not that it does you any good personally, but in the event someone finds this in a search: latest guidance is that E-4s from any branch can be appointed to SSgt after completing Level I.
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kwe1009
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 915

« Reply #135 on: August 16, 2017, 12:50:55 PM »

Since it is not a question on the membership form, I doubt NHQ is collecting any data about people joining specifically for the NCO program.  It would be nice information to have and would help to tailor recruiting efforts.  As of right now I have seen zero recruiting efforts targeted at NCOs or even the military in general unless it is coming from a local squadron.
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THRAWN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,889

« Reply #136 on: August 16, 2017, 12:58:44 PM »

Since it is not a question on the membership form, I doubt NHQ is collecting any data about people joining specifically for the NCO program.  It would be nice information to have and would help to tailor recruiting efforts.  As of right now I have seen zero recruiting efforts targeted at NCOs or even the military in general unless it is coming from a local squadron.

Wings aren't involved in outprocessing or retirements anymore? That's a shame. Lots of potential recruits walking out those doors.
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Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
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winterg
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 746
Unit: SER-FL-182

« Reply #137 on: August 16, 2017, 01:10:02 PM »

There isn't any active recruiting on an organizational scale becaue there is nothing to recruit them to yet. Yes, CAP released a new element to the senior program that was not fully developed. But that should hardly surprise anyone. It's kind of our mielieu. But that being said, they did put something in place which indicates that they will be moving forward. When that would be, I don't know.  But I have faith it will sometime. Until then, at least those of us who have chosen the NCO track are accruing TIG. 

For everyone saying the NCO program brings nothing to the organization, you're a bit premature. We don't know if the program will solve any problems or create more. Because we Don't know what they program is yet.  National has a working group headed by Chief Eldridge, the CAP Command Chief, and I have every confidence they are working on it to bring something positive to CAP.

As for an NCO program being a solution without a problem:
Problem: Ranks in CAP do not reflect authority. Officers should be the commanders and leadership of the organization that set the strategic goals.
Solution: Most members working at the unit level accomplishing the tactical goals that make up the strategic ones should be enlisted billets.
While that is a vast over simplication, it is an issue (whether it is a problem or not?) that has been discussed here numerous times.

The new promotion criteria for NCO, as many have noriced, is based on the position a person holds. If you want to make MSgt, you need to step up and work as a Squadron NCO.  Want to make SMsgt? You need to start taking positions outside the squadron. I don't see this as a negative. Why not expand it and apply it to officers? Want to be a Captain? You have serve as a squadron commander. Want to make Major? Better start looking for that Group CC job.

My point is, all the complaining in the world about the NCO program as of right now is useless because we have so little to go on with no idea how it will actually work.  Instead, the combined experience here could probably come up with some pretty inventive ways to utilize an NCO program to the benefit of CAP.

Pardon any typos. My phone is being wonky. 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

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THRAWN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,889

« Reply #138 on: August 16, 2017, 01:28:18 PM »

For everyone saying the NCO program brings nothing to the organization, you're a bit premature. We don't know if the program will solve any problems or create more. Because we Don't know what they program is yet.  National has a working group headed by Chief Eldridge, the CAP Command Chief, and I have every confidence they are working on it to bring something positive to CAP.

It's been 4 YEARS

How much more time is needed to decide what the program will be? I've said it before, but very soon, the THIRD National Commander will have this on their desk. Saying "they are working on it", isn't very promising.
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Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
winterg
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 746
Unit: SER-FL-182

« Reply #139 on: August 16, 2017, 01:32:54 PM »

For everyone saying the NCO program brings nothing to the organization, you're a bit premature. We don't know if the program will solve any problems or create more. Because we Don't know what they program is yet.  National has a working group headed by Chief Eldridge, the CAP Command Chief, and I have every confidence they are working on it to bring something positive to CAP.

It's been 4 YEARS

How much more time is needed to decide what the program will be? I've said it before, but very soon, the THIRD National Commander will have this on their desk. Saying "they are working on it", isn't very promising.
I'm not disagreeing with you, Thrawn. :) Going off of the original timetable when it was announced, we should probably be in phase 8 or something.  But, really, wouldn't more people have been shocked into cardiac arrest of it all happened on time?

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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: NCO selling points and benefits??
 


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