BDU/ABU: Single patch, which pocket?

[Holding Pattern]

Right breast Pocket. One full color patch authorized in Attachment 8-1 through 8-3 (that's in CAPM 3901 by the way my comment), with exception of Emergency Services patches and Ranger tabs, may be sewn to the shirt centered on the lower portion of the right breast pocket between left and right edges and bottom of flap and pocket of the ABU shirt.

Ok, but the Ranger Tab is not worn on the Right Breast Pocket, it's worn on the left arm. I'm so confused. 

Be careful what you joke about... it just might get changed to that.

[kwe1009]

Right breast Pocket. One full color patch authorized in Attachment 8-1 through 8-3 (that's in CAPM 3901 by the way my comment), with exception of Emergency Services patches and Ranger tabs, may be sewn to the shirt centered on the lower portion of the right breast pocket between left and right edges and bottom of flap and pocket of the ABU shirt.

Ok, but the Ranger Tab is not worn on the Right Breast Pocket, it's worn on the left arm. I'm so confused. 

Refer to AFI 36-2903 para 10.1 for wear guidance according to CAPM 39-1 para 5.1.1.3.10.

Attachment 8 in CAPM39-1 allows unit patches on the RP of the BDU and the ABU.  Unit patches are called organizational patch, so no oversight.

Actually it is Attachment 4 that authorizes unit patches and it does not refer to ABUs at all.  Nothing in the current version of 39-1 refers to ABUs.

[Sapper168]

Right breast Pocket. One full color patch authorized in Attachment 8-1 through 8-3 (that's in CAPM 3901 by the way my comment), with exception of Emergency Services patches and Ranger tabs, may be sewn to the shirt centered on the lower portion of the right breast pocket between left and right edges and bottom of flap and pocket of the ABU shirt.

Ok, but the Ranger Tab is not worn on the Right Breast Pocket, it's worn on the left arm. I'm so confused. 

Refer to AFI 36-2903 para 10.1 for wear guidance according to CAPM 39-1 para 5.1.1.3.10.

Attachment 8 in CAPM39-1 allows unit patches on the RP of the BDU and the ABU.  Unit patches are called organizational patch, so no oversight.

Actually it is Attachment 4 that authorizes unit patches and it does not refer to ABUs at all.  Nothing in the current version of 39-1 refers to ABUs.

With that logic, it is fully acceptable to have a beard and roll sleeves with full arm tattoos when wearing ABU's. 

[N6RVT]

It is interesting to note that there may have been some changes that got missed? (unless this has already been posted and I missed it, but I did not see any discussion on it):

This is the original link published by Eclipse on 13 July 2016:
http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/UPDATED_ABU_wear_instruction_7_Jul__EEB893035EB1E.pdf

This is the link on the CAP website:
http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/UPDATED_ABU_wear_instruction_20_Jul_FD42C441B50D3.pdf

This is the original announcement from May:
http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/CAP_Transition_to_ABUs_06DC64FB17483.pdf

Specifically:

From the first link:

Right  Breast  Pocket.   
One  full  color  patch authorized in Attachment 8-1  through  8-3,  with  the exception  of  the  Emergency  Services  patches and  Ranger  tabs,  may  be sewn to  the  shirt  centered  on  the  lower  portion of the right breast pocket between left and right edges and bottom of flap and pocket of ABU shirt.

From the second link:

Right  Breast Pocket.   One  full  color  patch authorized in Attachment 8-1  through  8-3,  with  the exception  of  the  Emergency  Services  patches and  Ranger  tabs, the  Model  Rocketry  Patch,  or  Unit/Organizational Patch may be sewn to the shirt centered on the lower portion of the right breast pocket between left and right edges and bottom of flap and pocket of ABU shirt.  The National Staff Badge shown in attachment A6-1 is also authorized to be worn in this position.

From the first link:

Left  Breast Pocket.   One  full  color  patch authorized in Attachment 8-1  through  8-3,  with  the exception  of  the  Emergency  Services  patches and  Ranger  tabs,  may  be sewn to  the  shirt  centered  on  the  lower portion of the left breast pocket between left and right edges and bottom of flap and pocket of ABU shirt.

From the second link:

Left  Breast Pocket.   One  full  color  patch authorized in Attachment 8-1  through  8-4,  with  the exception of the Emergency Services patches, Honor Guard Shield (attachment 8-4) and Ranger tabs, may be sewn to the  shirt centered on the  lower portion of the left breast pocket  between left and right edges and bottom of  flap  and  pocket  of  ABU  shirt.  One  Service  Badge  shown  in  Attachment  A6-1,  may  be  worn  in  this  position  with  the exception of the National Staff Badge which is worn on the right pocket.

Did the USAF specifically say no to unit patches, ES patch, ranger tabs, and the like since it now seems they have explicitly stated those?

Hmmm, I am thinking I read the comma wrong on the unit patch and MR patch.

In California it's nice and simple we just got the word no Wing patch and no pocket Patches at all

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

[SarDragon]

That was suggested, NOT mandated.

[kwe1009]

Right breast Pocket. One full color patch authorized in Attachment 8-1 through 8-3 (that's in CAPM 3901 by the way my comment), with exception of Emergency Services patches and Ranger tabs, may be sewn to the shirt centered on the lower portion of the right breast pocket between left and right edges and bottom of flap and pocket of the ABU shirt.

Ok, but the Ranger Tab is not worn on the Right Breast Pocket, it's worn on the left arm. I'm so confused. 

Refer to AFI 36-2903 para 10.1 for wear guidance according to CAPM 39-1 para 5.1.1.3.10.

Attachment 8 in CAPM39-1 allows unit patches on the RP of the BDU and the ABU.  Unit patches are called organizational patch, so no oversight.

Actually it is Attachment 4 that authorizes unit patches and it does not refer to ABUs at all.  Nothing in the current version of 39-1 refers to ABUs.

With that logic, it is fully acceptable to have a beard and roll sleeves with full arm tattoos when wearing ABU's.

Chapter 3 address the grooming standards regarding USAF-style uniforms.  Attachment 4 lists specific uniforms and ABU is not one of them.  In fact the published wear guidance supersedes Attch 4 since it specifically states what can be worn on the pockets and sleeves.  If you want to use the argument that the ABU and BDU are both USAF-style utility uniforms, I would normally agree but CAP has made it clear that they are not with some very different wear guidance.  A great example is the Command pin.  It is optional on the ABU but mandatory on the BDU.  This is in addition to the different patches that are authorized for the BDU but not the ABU. 

NHQ could have made this a very simple thing but for whatever reason chose to make it complicated and confusing.  Simply saying that "ABUs are worn in the same fashion as the BDU with the following exceptions: 1. No CAP Ranger or ES patch, 2. Sand colored t-shirt only, 3. desert tan rigger's belt, 4. etc."  The way they have approached this is ill-prepared.  The initial guidance had some glaring omissions, the update fixed some but also contradicted itself in some areas, and there are still glaring omissions (like unit patches).  The wheel did not need to be reinvented with introducing ABUs but that is the path NHQ chose to take.

[Garibaldi]

Guys....guys....guys.....

This is making a mountain out of a molehill, to be honest.

When we switched to BDUs somewhere in the 90s, there were a great many changes communicated to us about how we would wear our insignia, what kind of t-shirt and socks, and so on. We're still in the baby step phase here. I wouldn't freak out too much about what badge/patch/symbol is or isn't worn yet. Until the official 39-1 with the ABU wear instructions or a new ICL comes out with clarification, just take it as BAU for the ABU as written now.

I can't honestly see NHQ or the NUC eliminating the unit patches for any reason, but that's just my $.02. YMMV, HTH, HAND

[Meridius]

Ranger Tab:  (Yes, here we go again.)

ABU Wear Instructions:  "Left Breast Pocket. One full color patch authorized in Attachment 8-1 through 8-3, with the exception of the Emergency Services patches and Ranger tabs, may be sewn to the shirt centered on the lower portion of the left breast pocket between left and right edges and bottom of flap and pocket of ABU shirt."

These ABU wear instructions are extremely ambiguous.  In CAPM 39-1 attachment 8-2 applies to NCSA patches.  Regrettably, CAPM 39-1 inserts the Ranger Tabs from HMRS in this section which was clearly meant for the placement of the NCSA patches.  Ranger Tabs are placed above the "Civil Air Patrol" tape and between the 1st badge placement (usually a GT badge) and the tape.  The instructions cited above are clearly referring to the NCSA patch placement "on the pocket."  It clearly excludes ES patches (great!).  When I read "Ranger tabs," I read Ranger tabs placed on the actual pocket, not above the "Civil Air Patrol" tape.  So before some of you scholars say that it is not "authorized" based on the text above, read:

ABU Wear Instructions:  "Accoutrements. The total number of badges and patches worn will not exceed five. The Commander Insignia, rank insignia, cloth name tape, and “Civil Air Patrol” tape do not count against this total."

And:

ABU Wear Instructions:  Aviation and Occupational Badges. Two Aviation or Occupational badges embroidered in silver on dark blue may be worn sewn to the shirt ½ inch above the “Civil Air Patrol tape over the left breast pocket. The second badge will be centered ½ inch above the first badge. Chaplain and CAP aviation badges are mandatory and will always be worn in the highest position. Not more than a combined total of two of these badges will be worn on the wearer’s left. When more than one CAP aviation badge is authorized, only one will be worn. If a military aviation badge (aeronautical, space or cyberspace) is worn, it will be worn in the second position. If chaplain badge is worn, it is worn in the higher position. Parachutist wings are optional; however, when worn will be placed above an occupational badge or below a chaplain, aeronautical, space or cyberspace badge. Occupational badges (excluding chaplain) are optional. All light silver on dark blue insignia will have 1/8 inch of blue showing at the widest and tallest point of the insignia.


Remember 39-1 says that the Ranger Tab is not counted in the number of Aviation and Occupational Badges.  So, where is everyone getting that the Ranger Tab is not authorized?  It is obviously not authorized on the ABU where the NCSA patch goes.  Thus, an ambiguity exists with the instructions.  Therefore, is the Ranger Tab authorized?  Or not?

[Luis R. Ramos]

If you are going to be that specific, the ABU instructions do not cover the ES patch since the ES patch is not worn on the pocket but above the pocket...

[Damron]

Latest update to the update to the update from NHQ:

Left Breast Pocket. One full color patch authorized in Attachment 8-1 through 8-4, with the
exception of the Emergency Services patches, Honor Guard Shield (attachment 8-4) and Ranger tabs, may be sewn
to the shirt centered on the lower portion of the left breast pocket between left and right edges and bottom of flap
and pocket of ABU shirt. One Service Badge shown in Attachment A6-1, may be worn in this position with the
exception of the National Staff Badge which is worn on the right pocket.


Right Breast Pocket. One full color patch authorized in Attachment 8-1 through 8-3, with the
exception of the Emergency Services patches and Ranger tabs, the Model Rocketry Patch, or Unit/Organizational
Patch may be sewn to the shirt centered on the lower portion of the right breast pocket between left and right edges
and bottom of flap and pocket of ABU shirt. The National Staff Badge shown in attachment A6-1 is also authorized
to be worn in this position.


Despite awkward punctuation, unit and rocketry patches have been added.  Notice the change from 8-1 through 8-3 to 8-1 through 8-4 (with exceptions) for the left pocket.

NHQ in email correspondence has confirmed that ES patches and Ranger tabs are prohibited on the ABU.   

[Damron]

If you are going to be that specific, the ABU instructions do not cover the ES patch since the ES patch is not worn on the pocket but above the pocket...

If not mentioned, they are excluded.  NHQ has confirmed the fate of the ES patches and Ranger tabs.  In the latest update, they added the unit and rocketry patch.   

Using your logic, you can add anything to any regulation, instruction, or manual.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Damron, why did you respond to me and not Meridius?

I answered Meridius who stated basically that "since the Ranger tabs are not worn ON the pocket but ABOVE the pocket, instructions do not apply."

Lawyers play tricks with those omissions and mistakes, and sometimes win!

So I answered Meridius.

Based on that logic, "since the ES patch is not worn ON the pocket but above, just like the Ranger tab, instructions do not apply."

I am fully aware what is the intention of NHQ. I have 15 years service, and can read through the sometimes obtuse formulation of regulations, manuals, and pamphlets!

[Damron]

Damron, why did you respond to me and not Meridius?

I answered Meridius who stated basically that "since the Ranger tabs are not worn ON the pocket but ABOVE the pocket, instructions do not apply."

Lawyers play tricks with those omissions and mistakes, and sometimes win!

So I answered Meridius.

Based on that logic, "since the ES patch is not worn ON the pocket but above, just like the Ranger tab, instructions do not apply."

I am fully aware what is the intention of NHQ. I have 15 years service, and can read through the sometimes obtuse formulation of regulations, manuals, and pamphlets!

I'm sorry.  I sometimes pay the price for reading a thread backwards.  As I didn't see the quote block, I missed the context.

[Toad1168]

If you are going to be that specific, the ABU instructions do not cover the ES patch since the ES patch is not worn on the pocket but above the pocket...

If not mentioned, they are excluded.  NHQ has confirmed the fate of the ES patches and Ranger tabs.  In the latest update, they added the unit and rocketry patch.   

Using your logic, you can add anything to any regulation, instruction, or manual.

Added to the authorized list, or the not authorized list? Punctuation can be read either way.  I'm waiting until its published in 39-1.  IMHO, I prefer the look of the ABU without the pocket patches.

[Eclipse]

If not mentioned, they are excluded.  NHQ has confirmed the fate of the ES patches and Ranger tabs.

Maybe, but saying it'll be added back doesn't say "where", or "when", and it's clearly not authorized today, since the
ICL was very explicit about what is.

The "Ranger" patch, regardless of what you think of it, is a crammed-in after-thought to the uniform in a wholly
inappropriate place for something like that. 

One would hope that if the USAF allows it to be added back, it's in a place that doesn't look like people don't know
how to measure, even when it's on correctly - perhaps make it an actual shoulder "tab"?  Or place it on the pocket flap?

Anything is better then the current BDU/CFU placement, and my suggestion would be that wherever it moves on the ABU, the BDU & CFU
are changed likewise (and in a timeline that doesn't exceed most member's involvement).

[Jester]

It's bad enough that there's something in CAP referred to as a Ranger tab, along with all the other things like blue berets and appropriating  the Pararescue motto, and I'm sure there's more but those are the ones that I've seen so far. But if HMRS actually ends up rating an actual shoulder tab... ridiculous is the kindest way to describe it.

[kwe1009]

It's bad enough that there's something in CAP referred to as a Ranger tab, along with all the other things like blue berets and appropriating  the Pararescue motto, and I'm sure there's more but those are the ones that I've seen so far. But if HMRS actually ends up rating an actual shoulder tab... ridiculous is the kindest way to describe it.

Lots of truth in those remarks...

[THRAWN]

It's bad enough that there's something in CAP referred to as a Ranger tab, along with all the other things like blue berets and appropriating  the Pararescue motto, and I'm sure there's more but those are the ones that I've seen so far. But if HMRS actually ends up rating an actual shoulder tab... ridiculous is the kindest way to describe it.

Lots of truth in those remarks...

Hey, why not? There was a wing in the NER (NY? PA?) that had some kind of "special operations" tab that they wore over a flightsuit patch that was a copy of a Navy "Phantom II" patch. I was flying with a former Phantom driver that day and he was far from amused....words were exchanged, fingers were pointed and I haven't seen that patch around since....nothing says "wannabe" more than stuff like this. As an organization, we have enough history and heritage that we don't need to adopt someone else's.

[sarmed1]

Hey, why not? There was a wing in the NER (NY? PA?) that had some kind of "special operations" tab that they wore over a flightsuit patch that was a copy of a Navy "Phantom II" patch. I was flying with a former Phantom driver that day and he was far from amused....words were exchanged, fingers were pointed and I haven't seen that patch around since....nothing says "wannabe" more than stuff like this. As an organization, we have enough history and heritage that we don't need to adopt someone else's.

That was PA's "Counter Narcotics" flight crew patch back in the late 80's/90's.



MK

[edited to fix forbidden hot link]

[sarmed1]

It's bad enough that there's something in CAP referred to as a Ranger tab, along with all the other things like blue berets and appropriating  the Pararescue motto, and I'm sure there's more but those are the ones that I've seen so far. But if HMRS actually ends up rating an actual shoulder tab... ridiculous is the kindest way to describe it.

I (nor anyone that I know of up there) would be a fan of that, it is where it is because that's where its been for many years (we will call it tradition for lack or a better term)

If it has to go, and they still want to have something on the uniform, I have always been an advocate of creating a Range Specific GT badge. (like put the LL on a keystone in the circle instead of "GT".  Basic badge for initial award, Senior for Advanced Ranger and Master for Expert Ranger (coincidentally, GTL is required for R/adv, and GBD is required for R/EXP)

Overall I an not a fan of the patch-tasticness of the CAP uniform, and was hoping that the USAF scaling back of patches on the ABU would carry thru to CAP....oh well

MK