Senior Members - College experience?

[SAR-EMT1]

^ Most Universities that offer ROTC also allow the awarding of a minor, major or certificate in Military Science. 

Example.....at Penn State, a person can walk in and sign up for a Political Science major, enroll in the first two years of Army ROTC, get permission from the Senior Military Science Instructor (Professor of Military Science or Battalion Commander) to audit the last two years of the ROTC program.  PENN will then award you a bachelor of Science in Military Studies.  It is not advertised publicly though, but can be done.  I have seen other schools do the same. 

NOW if you were speaking of on line programs, there are many.  You can check out the AF or Army times websites and see the advertisements for them.

I know about the ROTC minor sir. Im talking about an actual Degree in military studies

[mikeylikey]

^ Sorry let me be more specific.  Penn states offers a BS in Military Science through its college, "Commonwealth College".  You take all sorts of "political sciencey", history and a few electives.  You must sign up for AFROTC or AROTC.  First two years anyone can take, last two years you need to either be in it for the Commission, or ask to audit the class which requires the battalion or detachment Commanders Permission. 

Most Universities that Have Army ROTC go this route as well.

You just need to speak to the registrars at the various locations. 

Now what specifically were you looking for, an actual college setting, or something like University of Phoenix on line??

[SAR-EMT1]

Online, at least for the time being.  ( But not nearly as expensive as Pheonix)
Hopefully resulting in an Associates, but even just a Certificate would be nice boost to my list of credits.

< Reason being, if I move further ahead towards my bachelors, before the med waiver for ROTC comes through (if it ever does) I am ineligible to do the ROTC route. ( As I'd have too many credits and the ROTC doesnt allow those with med waivers to come in on the 2 year program. - As told to me by my former det. / CC, this is how it would play - )
Therefore my only option would be OCS which at the moment is interested in those with a technical or engineering background. (My bachelors will be History and I've already completed a minor in Music)

Therefore I'd LOVE to get an Associates degree in Military Studies or
-even better-  Military History.

( Im already set to begin Paramedic training which will give me an Associates in EMS, but it wont transfer into anything )


- Off topic:
Before I was forced kicking and screaming from ROTC I was set  to be a Nuclear Missile crewdog. If I could wave a wand and be back in the ROTC thats what I would want to do. If thats not possible I would go where-ever I could do the Air Force the most good, be it as an officer or enlisted. If the AF wont take me Id sign up for the first branch of the DoD that will.

[fyrfitrmedic]

( Im already set to begin Paramedic training which will give me an Associates in EMS, but it wont transfer into anything )

Not entirely true; there are a few educational institutions that will allow some sort of articulation.

[SAR-EMT1]

( Im already set to begin Paramedic training which will give me an Associates in EMS, but it wont transfer into anything )

Not entirely true; there are a few educational institutions that will allow some sort of articulation.

True, true but they tend to be Pre-med or nursing programs and nether of those will help me in regards to the Air Force. (Unless I want to be a Doc or a Nurse, but I'll cut off my hands before that happens)

[GhostWriter]

More important than a degree is the ability to do the job - I have seen many highly "educated" people possessing an alphabet soup of degrees without the ability to translate their education into competent action.  Even some MD's are not good physicians.  Possession of a degree only indicates that one was exposed to a body of knowledge generally in a formal environment and possessed the memorization skills necessary to pass the tests.  What truly counts in the world of "doing" is the ability to translate knowledge (no matter how acquired - through formal education or experience) into productive and appropriate action with a successful outcome.  Many of those who focus on degrees are insecure in their ability to act.  The best of all worlds is the person with knowledge, experience, skill, and the ability to integrate all of those into success - with a degree, great; without one, great as well.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Lets not get hung up on "degrees."  I think CAP should insist on SOME post-secondary education.  College, trade school, flight training, whatever.  There is no need to settle for the "Wannabe" who lacks the personal drive and motivation to do something between high school and the legal drinking age.

The guy who finishes high school, gets an entry-level job in retail, fast food, or materials handling and is still in that entry level job 3 years later is NOT the kind of a guy we want running our units.

And, if you think about it long enough, it is guys like that, who are given rank which is way beyond their ability, who cause about 80-90 per cent of our problems.

[Walkman]

More important than a degree is the ability to do the job - l.

Very true. After many years in the biz, I started teaching college web design and art classes without having a degree myself. My students told me they appreciated the "real-world" approach I took. I taught for 5 years.

Lets not get hung up on "degrees."  I think CAP should insist on SOME post-secondary education.  College, trade school, flight training, whatever.  There is no need to settle for the "Wannabe" who lacks the personal drive and motivation to do something between high school and the legal drinking age.

The guy who finishes high school, gets an entry-level job in retail, fast food, or materials handling and is still in that entry level job 3 years later is NOT the kind of a guy we want running our units.

And, if you think about it long enough, it is guys like that, who are given rank which is way beyond their ability, who cause about 80-90 per cent of our problems.

What about those, like me, with some college but no degree who nevertheless achieve success? I left school as a Junior to go into a field that didn't have a degree requirement, and now I own a successful ad agency. My brother-in-law wandered through school without any real achievement, until he got an electrician job. He found his "calling" and busted his butt to get his Master's Electrician rating by the time he was 26. He then started his own business.

I have issues with making a college degree the defacto standard for everything, especially in a situation like this. Would you turn away Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Waller Cronkite or Ray Kroc?

[JohnKachenmeister]

I proposed here, just for review, that CAP establish minimal education entry standards for officers.  This would be an improvement over our current officer standards, summarized below:

1.  98.6 body temperature.
2.  G.E.D.
3.  Never been caught molesting children.

The minimal education standards I proposed were:

1.  2 years of college, OR...
2.  A trade school of about 5 months total duration, OR...
3.  Private pilot rating or higher.

I don't think it is unreasonable to require SOME achievement beyond completing high school to wear officer rank, lead teenage cadets, and administer the complexities of a CAP unit.

Assuming the the business and financial brain-trusts that you named could not meet these basic standards, yes, I'd turn them away.  I'm not gonna kiss every toad I see just because a few turn into princes.  Besides, I didn't see them breaking down any squadron doors to join, anyway.

[Short Field]

So the Cadets who join the real military but don't have a tech school that lasts longer than 5 months shouldn't be Senior Members?   

[Walkman]

^^ Bingo!

[GhostWriter]

Once upon a time, a long time ago, senior members without college degrees had to start as Airman, then worked their way up the ranks through (as I recall) A2C, A1C (the A2C eventually eliminated as there are "no second class Airman in the Air Force"), Sgt, SSgt, Tech Sgt, MSgt, WO, CWO, before ever making it to 2Lt.  Becoming an  officer did not require a degree, but without one, the member had to make an additional effort to make it to an officer grade.  It was a National HQ decision to reduce/eliminate the non-officer grades and suddenly virtually everyone was an instant officer.  Instead of potentially excluding highly motivated and highly skilled people in our volunteer organization, perhaps the organization needs to re-look at its current structure. 

The analogy of kissing toads is unfortunate.  I think we can do better by finding positive motivational methods to increase our attracting talented and dedicated people.  The "minimal educational standards" as proposed (obviously excluding the private pilot rating) rely solely on some sort of classroom time and ignore achievement and success.  Perhaps there are other ways to make sure we do not fall into the trap of form over substance.

[SAR-EMT1]

Question:
I know that as late as Vietnam we had plenty of ' RM ' Officers, including some Field Grade Officers, who had no bachelors degree. At what point did the bachelors requirment become hard and fast for the DoD?
Any exceptions?
AE: ways to become an officer (and stay an officer) without having to complete a BACHELORS?

Just curious.
As it goes along with the above... while the degree is usually a good thing, its no promise that the person will do a good job and there are plenty of folks without a BACHELORS that did fine in life.

( Now Im not saying an associates or some other post high school education couldnt be required )

[JohnKachenmeister]

Once upon a time, a long time ago, senior members without college degrees had to start as Airman, then worked their way up the ranks through (as I recall) A2C, A1C (the A2C eventually eliminated as there are "no second class Airman in the Air Force"), Sgt, SSgt, Tech Sgt, MSgt, WO, CWO, before ever making it to 2Lt.  Becoming an  officer did not require a degree, but without one, the member had to make an additional effort to make it to an officer grade.  It was a National HQ decision to reduce/eliminate the non-officer grades and suddenly virtually everyone was an instant officer.  Instead of potentially excluding highly motivated and highly skilled people in our volunteer organization, perhaps the organization needs to re-look at its current structure. 

The analogy of kissing toads is unfortunate.  I think we can do better by finding positive motivational methods to increase our attracting talented and dedicated people.  The "minimal educational standards" as proposed (obviously excluding the private pilot rating) rely solely on some sort of classroom time and ignore achievement and success.  Perhaps there are other ways to make sure we do not fall into the trap of form over substance.

OK, GhostWriter...  I'm open to suggestions.  I firmly believe that we need to raise our standards for officers, but we do not need to raise them so high to exclude good people.  This conversation has gone in circles, and people continue to pose the strawman arguement of "What if in intrinsically brilliant man such as Bill Gates wants to be an officer, but doesn't have college?" 

I counter with:

How many geniuses have come into CAP under our current standards?  Did they stay?

I proposed college or similar post-secondary schooling.  I might add a Mitchell or higher as a cadet.  If you want to toss in prior active duty, I'll go for it.  What else you got?

Now, GW, if your point is to be believed, there are a number of persons who are highly talented, brilliant assets to the CAP program out there, but for reasons unknown to us, they have elected to not display this brilliance by engaging in activities to prepare them for jobs of great responsibility.  Once they join, and participate in our weekend management training classes, their brilliance will bloom and CAP will be a better organization as a result.  Is that what your are maintaining?

And I think my kissing pigs analogy was spot on.  The people we are talking about screening out account for about 80 percent of our personnel problems. 

[GhostWriter]

I went back to the beginning of this thread and realized that it started from a poll about the educational level of existing members and a comment that there is "...some talk about our Officers having a college degree..."  Perhaps it would be useful if someone would clearly elucidate exactly what problem we're trying to solve.

Over the years, I've known a number of our officers who did not possess degrees and whose contributions to CAP were extraordinary and were acknowledged in very formal and public venues. I won't name names, as it would be highly inappropriate for me to publicize that they lack the formal education you appear to believe is of greater importance than their contributions.

In answer to your specific question, I only know with certainty of one "genius" as that individual was a member of Mensa (sans college degree).

Over the years, we recruited several highly successful individuals, some with degrees and some without.  Virtually all of those I knew have left the organization as they found some of the politics and overblown egos intolerable.  One incredibly successful entrepreneur and another venture capitalist told me that they wouldn't tolerate the pettiness and rank-consciousness in their own companies so they saw no reason to put up with it in a volunteer organization.  They were truly altruistic individuals who also served as members of the boards of Fortune 500 companies.  (By the way, I have no idea whether or not they were geniuses, but I do know that 20+ years ago they were multimillionaires.  The requirements you propose would have precluded one of these individuals from serving as an officer.) 

CAP must function such that participation is encouraged, valued and rewarded, and as in the world of paid work, there needs to be appropriate mechanisms to deal with individuals who abuse the organization by using it rather than contributing to it. 

I do not pretend to have the answer to the problem you see, but I do believe that a bit more creative thought needs to go into attracting, motivating, rewarding, and keeping good people.  We need to be able to utilize the skills that each individual possesses, have flexibility and motivating skills to keep the good people we bring into the organization, and properly manage those who, to quote you, are "toads".

In summary, let's clearly define the problem(s) before delineating potential solutions.  Educational requirements will NOT screen out jerks.  There are as many jerks with degrees as without.  If we are to successfully screen out jerks rather than finding ways to properly manage those that come our way, perhaps we will have to look outside the human race for our membership.

[mikeylikey]

If we are to successfully screen out jerks rather than finding ways to properly manage those that come our way, perhaps we will have to look outside the human race for our membership.

Right there.....you just backed up what I have been saying for 10 years.  Robots are coming, and they are going to take all of our jobs.  And Women.   

[JohnKachenmeister]

I went back to the beginning of this thread and realized that it started from a poll about the educational level of existing members and a comment that there is "...some talk about our Officers having a college degree..."  Perhaps it would be useful if someone would clearly elucidate exactly what problem we're trying to solve.

Over the years, I've known a number of our officers who did not possess degrees and whose contributions to CAP were extraordinary and were acknowledged in very formal and public venues. I won't name names, as it would be highly inappropriate for me to publicize that they lack the formal education you appear to believe is of greater importance than their contributions.

In answer to your specific question, I only know with certainty of one "genius" as that individual was a member of Mensa (sans college degree).

Over the years, we recruited several highly successful individuals, some with degrees and some without.  Virtually all of those I knew have left the organization as they found some of the politics and overblown egos intolerable.  One incredibly successful entrepreneur and another venture capitalist told me that they wouldn't tolerate the pettiness and rank-consciousness in their own companies so they saw no reason to put up with it in a volunteer organization.  They were truly altruistic individuals who also served as members of the boards of Fortune 500 companies.  (By the way, I have no idea whether or not they were geniuses, but I do know that 20+ years ago they were multimillionaires.  The requirements you propose would have precluded one of these individuals from serving as an officer.) 

CAP must function such that participation is encouraged, valued and rewarded, and as in the world of paid work, there needs to be appropriate mechanisms to deal with individuals who abuse the organization by using it rather than contributing to it. 

I do not pretend to have the answer to the problem you see, but I do believe that a bit more creative thought needs to go into attracting, motivating, rewarding, and keeping good people.  We need to be able to utilize the skills that each individual possesses, have flexibility and motivating skills to keep the good people we bring into the organization, and properly manage those who, to quote you, are "toads".

In summary, let's clearly define the problem(s) before delineating potential solutions.  Educational requirements will NOT screen out jerks.  There are as many jerks with degrees as without.  If we are to successfully screen out jerks rather than finding ways to properly manage those that come our way, perhaps we will have to look outside the human race for our membership.

OK, G.W., that defines our positions.

I contend that it would be appropriate and would better our organization to improve officer quality, and I made some specific proposals to do that. 

You believe the overall quality of the CAP officer force is just fine as it is, and you cannot think of any way to improve it.

I'm gonna have to say I do not concur with your conclusion.  I see a lot of CAP members who are wearing the rank of commissioned officers but can only perform at the level of a junior enlisted.  They can perform specific tasks and follow procedures, but conceptual thinking, planning, executing a complex plan, and managing peaople and assets is beyond them.  I also beleive that providing commissioned officer rank to people who have not taken any initiative to prepare themselves for progressively-higher levels of responsibility is an invitation to personnel problems.

[brasda91]

I went back to the beginning of this thread and realized that it started from a poll about the educational level of existing members and a comment that there is "...some talk about our Officers having a college degree..."  Perhaps it would be useful if someone would clearly elucidate exactly what problem we're trying to solve.

Prior to me starting this poll/thread, there had been several comments/opinions in other threads about senior members should have some college education.  I simply though it would be nice to see how many of the members of this forum are college educated.  I didn't try to imply that there is a problem with the way the senior member program is run.  As I stated in my opening comments, I have a few college classes, but no degree.  I feel like I can improve my squadron and have a professional unit, minus a degree.  And I have said before.  The approving authority should only promote the member if they can assume the responsibility of the higher grade.  I believe that means grooming standars, actively participating in unit activities, professionalism, everything.  I think there are too many inexperienced members of CAP trying to make senior members live up to the standards of the military.  I think that's too much.

[Short Field]

It is important to remember why the USAF (and other services) went with the requirement for a college degree.  Why - because they could.  The ever increasing pool of college graduates following WWII allowed them to add the requirement for a college degree and still meet their officer manpower requirements.  Rumor has it that at the regular meetings of the JCS, they would brag about the percentage of their officer corp that held college degrees - i.e. which service had the "smartest" officers.  At some point, the USAF decided to require a college degree of all new officers.  The other services followed suit. 

USAF Pilot Class 61-F was the last class of Aviation Cadets.  Aviation Cadets were not required to have college degrees and were commissioned 2nd Lts when they graduated from pilot training.

There are lots of circumstances beyond a person's control that impacts their level of formal education.  None if it impacts on a person's basic intelligence and drive to succeed.  Remember, ignorance is cured by training and education, stupidity is permanent.

[Short Field]

I think there are too many inexperienced members of CAP trying to make senior members live up to the standards of the military.  I think that's too much.

A a retired mustang officer, I feel I have earned the right to wear my hair anyway I want to, grow the chin hair I wasn't allowed to grow since I was a teenager (and back then your father or coach or High School teacher would stop any excess facial hair),  and finally slack off on the daily exercise routine required to be combat ready.  So what if I have gained a few pounds?  I earned it.   But if they think they can fly, lead, or plan better than me, they need to have walked the walk, got the T-shirt, and drank the Kool-Aid first.  Old and cunning beats young and enthusiastic 9 out of 10 times - and I am sleeping in on the tenth time.