Senior Member can't wear his NRA Marksman award?

[Eclipse]

I have an answer to this.  He can just wear his NRA badge on the elastic band of his underwear. That way he can also wear the AF Blues!

....and I am not a troll.  A Captain with CAP.

These things are not mutaully exclusive.

I often wonder if the General reads these posts.

Word is he does (assuming you're referring to HEADCAP.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

I don't need one that "authorizes" it.  That which is not prohibited is implicitly permitted.

From the new CAPM 39-1, which makes it fairly clear (emphasis added is mine) with sorely needed language:

1.1.1.2.1. CAP's USAF-style uniform policies will adhere to USAF standards found in the appropriate USAF instructions. Differences from USAF standards will be only those differences required to meet unique CAP requirements and allowed by USAF-approved exceptions. CAP honors our special relationship with the USAF through closely adhering to the policies set for the USAF's uniform.

1.1.2.1. COMPLIANCE WITH THIS PUBLICATION IS MANDATORY. This publication is the sole source for wear instructions and authorized items for various uniform combinations as prescribed within. Variation from this publication is not authorized. Items not listed in this publication are not authorized for wear with uniforms. Local commanders do not have the authority to waive grooming and appearance standards.

So if it's not in the book, whether the AFI or the CAPM (the latter of which is the first source for CAP members), it's a no go. And if you haven't read the new CAPM 39-1, I strenuously advise that you do.

In all fairness, JeffDG was talking about senior members doing firearm training with the NRA, which is not governed by CAPM 39-1.

I understand, Stormy, and the clarification lands well. While s'members can do NRA training, my impression was that he was pushing to get adult-member ability to wear the badge. Even at that, we need the reminder — how many times do we look around local units and see some pretty stupefying uniform violations?

[Shuman 14]

Ok, Barney style for you then since you missed it "reflect special skills that an Airman has demonstrated proficiency or qualification in that complements their primary mission."  Marksmanship outside of specific AFSCs do not complement most AF members primary mission.  Ergo read the entire the clause in and of it self states that the marksmanship badges are not authorized.  Is that clear enough for you?

Sorry, but you just shot your own arguement in the foot by saying "most"... which means for "some" it does.

Unless the the Instruction read something specific such as, "Wear of Sister Service Marksmanship awards is prohibited", which it doesn't, your interpretation of the regulation is incorrect. Again I reference Chapter 11 of the same instruction which authorizes the wear of Navy and Coast Guard Marksmanship ribbons (Marksman and Sharpshooter) and medals (Expert) for precedence allowing the wear of marksmanship awards.

By the way, the "Barney" reference to my law enforcement status is a personal attack, a violation CAPTalk policies, and unprofessional conduct unworthy of a CAP Officer.

[Devil Doc]

That which is not prohibited is implicitly permitted.

Can you cite a regulation that permits you to go to the bathroom during a mission?  By your logic, it must be prohibited then, right?

CAP does not prohibit leading cadets in group discussions about Ulysses, Naked Lunch, Howl, or Tropic of Cancer – four texts that have been banned by various communities over the years. As a former teacher, I'm not going anywhere near those texts below college level.

Just because a regulation doesn't prohibit a given activity does not mean that that activity is permitted in CAP. The bathroom break example is nonsense. Rules and regs can't anticipate every scenario, but neither do they address every scenario that the writer(s) could anticipate (ie: a need for bathroom breaks).

We need more discernment and temperance around here.

Whoa Whoa Wait, They dont teach Ulysses anymore? I can understand Tropic of Cancer, but what is wrong with Ulysses? I swear our children are being brainwashed. I recommend a Good Book. "The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America" by Charlotte Iserbyte.

[Shuman 14]

No we don't need another badge.  36-2903 authorizes sister service badges yes and I would have to look but I do not believe marksmanship badges are authorized.  The Excellence in Competition badge is authorized for wear.

The new USAF Uniform Instruction authorizes all sister Service badges, awards and decorations for wear on the uniform.

It seems pretty cut and dry.

But not NRA badges.

No it is not cut and dry it states qualification badges and not marksmanship badges.  See as follows:

AFI36-2903 Para: 10.5.

Qualification and Miscellaneous Badges and Patches.
Qualification badges are defined as badges earned and permanently awarded that reflect special skills that an Airman has demonstrated proficiency or qualification in that complements their primary mission. Wear of other services' qualification badges, if earned and awarded, is authorized. Award criteria for other services' qualification badges will be in accordance with awarding Service's directives (Army MilPERCEN; Navy; BUPERS, etc.). Temporary qualification badges and those not related to an Airman's current primary mission are not authorized for wear on the uniform.

Refer to attachment 5 for a listing of qualification badges and patches authorized (not inclusive).

Ergo other service marksmanship badges are not authorized for wear on the AF uniform.  The EIC badge is authorized for wear by members.  Please stay in your lane.

What part of "not inclusive" do you not understand? It means there are a plethora of badges, from all Services, now authorized for wear on the USAF uniform, not all of them are displayed pictorially in the attachment. 

I would submit to you that a Marksmanship Qualification Badge is not a temporary badge, it a permanent award, until superseded  by a more recent weapons qualification.

If the USAF is allowing prior Service Navy and Coast Guard members to wear their Marksmanship Qualification Ribbons and/or Medals, as outlined in Chapter 11, why would they not allow the same for prior Service Army and Marine members of their Marksmanship Badges?

That would seem to violate the spirit and intent of the new instructions as stated here: http://www.af.mil/News/ArticleDisplay/tabid/223/Article/473134/af-uniform-policy-update-welcome-back-morale-t-shirts-badges-and-limitless-athl.aspx

and I quote:

The second is recognizing and valuing Airmen's experiences, qualifications and job performance, allowing Airmen to wear what they have earned. The last area is a group of common sense approach inputs from Airmen in the field that senior leaders thought were great ideas.

Still would not authorize a NRA badge for wear, though. 

That is the verbiage verbatim from the AFI.  Army marksmanship medals are not authorized just like combat patches are not authorized.

Yes, I can read, and I do not see where it says they are not authorized. They reflect a special skill, they are not temporary badges, they are permanently awarded... they are authorized.

Combat patches (i.e. Shoulder Sleeve Insignia - Former Wartime Service) like the Regimental Duty Insignia are identification badges and not authorized for wear.

My understanding is that Army Marksmanship Qualification Badges are not permanent awards. When a soldier re-qualifies with their weapon at a different level, the soldier replaces their qualification badge with a new badge that reflects their current level.

Marksmanship Badges. An award for previous marksmanship weapons qualification is revoked automatically whenever an individual, upon completion of firing a record course for which the previous award was made, has not attained the same qualification.

In 18 years in the Air Force (including AD, Guard and Reserve), I've never seen former Army Soldiers wearing this particular badge on an Air Force uniform.

Well, seeing that this new Instruction has only been in place about 6 months... that might explain why you haven't seen it in the previous 17 years.

I would submit to you that the Marksmanship badge is a permanent award... until it is superceded by the next qualification.

For example, a Pilot Badge is a permanent award... until replaced by a Senior Pilot Badge.

A Marksmanship award does not "fall off the uniform" at 6 months, 6 years or 60 years... you continue to wear it until you qualify again, however long that may be, and it is replaced by that current qualification.

I'll give you an example, a seminary student enlists in the Army on an OCS option. He attends Basic Combat Training, where he qualifies Expert on the M-4 Course. He then attends Officer Candidate School and is commissioned a 2nd Liuetenant. He then completes his Ordination and is appointed a Chaplain.

By regulation, Chaplains do not qualify with weapons, so he will never qualify on a weapon again, yet, if he choose too he could continue to wear the Expert Marksmanship Badge that he earned.

To put this in a CAP context, for most prior-Service CAP members, their Marksmanship Award/s will appears on their DD-214, they will not qualify again, therefore their last qualification is permanent.

[Shuman 14]

In 18 years in the Air Force (including AD, Guard and Reserve), I've never seen former Army Soldiers wearing this particular badge on an Air Force uniform.

They wear the Air Force Small Arms Expert Markmanship Ribbon instead. They get to put a bronze star on it if they qualify "expert" on two or more weapons.

And like you sir, in over 31-1/2 years in the Air Force/Air National Guard/Air Force Reserve, I never ever saw any former Soldier or Marine wearing their former service markmanship badges.

But our friend who posts from the Guard Shack because he's bored and likes to "stir things up" probably won't accept this answer.
meh...

Again the "new" Instruction has only been out about 6 months so that would explain the previous 31 years when it wasn't authorized... it is now.

[Shuman 14]

Air Force has a ribbon instead of badge.

Same thing with the Navy.

And the Coast Guard... all of which are authorized in Chapter 11 of the Instruction.

[Tim Medeiros]

Ok, Barney style for you then since you missed it "reflect special skills that an Airman has demonstrated proficiency or qualification in that complements their primary mission."  Marksmanship outside of specific AFSCs do not complement most AF members primary mission.  Ergo read the entire the clause in and of it self states that the marksmanship badges are not authorized.  Is that clear enough for you?

Sorry, but you just shot your own arguement in the foot by saying "most"... which means for "some" it does.

Unless the the Instruction read something specific such as, "Wear of Sister Service Marksmanship awards is prohibited", which it doesn't, your interpretation of the regulation is incorrect. Again I reference Chapter 11 of the same instruction which authorizes the wear of Navy and Coast Guard Marksmanship ribbons (Marksman and Sharpshooter) and medals (Expert) for precedence allowing the wear of marksmanship awards.

By the way, the "Barney" reference to my law enforcement status is a personal attack, a violation CAPTalk policies, and unprofessional conduct unworthy of a CAP Officer.

Actually, Barney is in reference to the years past childrens TV show featuring a purple "dinosaur".  "Breaking it down Barney style" is a phrase meaning to bring an explanation down to a level where a child could comprehend.  So he wasn't referencing your law enforcement status, especially considering his own former law enforcement status.


Just so you know, he and his leadership have already had a discussion regarding, specifically, this post.

[abdsp51]

Ok, Barney style for you then since you missed it "reflect special skills that an Airman has demonstrated proficiency or qualification in that complements their primary mission."  Marksmanship outside of specific AFSCs do not complement most AF members primary mission.  Ergo read the entire the clause in and of it self states that the marksmanship badges are not authorized.  Is that clear enough for you?

Sorry, but you just shot your own arguement in the foot by saying "most"... which means for "some" it does.

Unless the the Instruction read something specific such as, "Wear of Sister Service Marksmanship awards is prohibited", which it doesn't, your interpretation of the regulation is incorrect. Again I reference Chapter 11 of the same instruction which authorizes the wear of Navy and Coast Guard Marksmanship ribbons (Marksman and Sharpshooter) and medals (Expert) for precedence allowing the wear of marksmanship awards.

By the way, the "Barney" reference to my law enforcement status is a personal attack, a violation CAPTalk policies, and unprofessional conduct unworthy of a CAP Officer.

Not authorized period per the chapter cited, plain and simple.  I suggest you stick to your employers policies and the Army's. 

[Shuman 14]

Ok, Barney style for you then since you missed it "reflect special skills that an Airman has demonstrated proficiency or qualification in that complements their primary mission."  Marksmanship outside of specific AFSCs do not complement most AF members primary mission.  Ergo read the entire the clause in and of it self states that the marksmanship badges are not authorized.  Is that clear enough for you?

Sorry, but you just shot your own arguement in the foot by saying "most"... which means for "some" it does.

Unless the the Instruction read something specific such as, "Wear of Sister Service Marksmanship awards is prohibited", which it doesn't, your interpretation of the regulation is incorrect. Again I reference Chapter 11 of the same instruction which authorizes the wear of Navy and Coast Guard Marksmanship ribbons (Marksman and Sharpshooter) and medals (Expert) for precedence allowing the wear of marksmanship awards.

By the way, the "Barney" reference to my law enforcement status is a personal attack, a violation CAPTalk policies, and unprofessional conduct unworthy of a CAP Officer.

Actually, Barney is in reference to the years past childrens TV show featuring a purple "dinosaur".  "Breaking it down Barney style" is a phrase meaning to bring an explanation down to a level where a child could comprehend.  So he wasn't referencing your law enforcement status, especially considering his own former law enforcement status.


Just so you know, he and his leadership have already had a discussion regarding, specifically, this post.

Sir,

I was unaware of the purple dinosaur reference, I know what the show is, but have no kids, so I've never watched it, so I did not get the reference.

If no insult was intended... then no harm, no foul.

Thank you for your oversite as well.

[Storm Chaser]

In 18 years in the Air Force (including AD, Guard and Reserve), I've never seen former Army Soldiers wearing this particular badge on an Air Force uniform.

They wear the Air Force Small Arms Expert Markmanship Ribbon instead. They get to put a bronze star on it if they qualify "expert" on two or more weapons.

And like you sir, in over 31-1/2 years in the Air Force/Air National Guard/Air Force Reserve, I never ever saw any former Soldier or Marine wearing their former service markmanship badges.

But our friend who posts from the Guard Shack because he's bored and likes to "stir things up" probably won't accept this answer.
meh...

Again the "new" Instruction has only been out about 6 months so that would explain the previous 31 years when it wasn't authorized... it is now.

And you know this because you're in the Air Force...? Right.

[Storm Chaser]

I don't need one that "authorizes" it.  That which is not prohibited is implicitly permitted.

From the new CAPM 39-1, which makes it fairly clear (emphasis added is mine) with sorely needed language:

1.1.1.2.1. CAP's USAF-style uniform policies will adhere to USAF standards found in the appropriate USAF instructions. Differences from USAF standards will be only those differences required to meet unique CAP requirements and allowed by USAF-approved exceptions. CAP honors our special relationship with the USAF through closely adhering to the policies set for the USAF's uniform.

1.1.2.1. COMPLIANCE WITH THIS PUBLICATION IS MANDATORY. This publication is the sole source for wear instructions and authorized items for various uniform combinations as prescribed within. Variation from this publication is not authorized. Items not listed in this publication are not authorized for wear with uniforms. Local commanders do not have the authority to waive grooming and appearance standards.

So if it's not in the book, whether the AFI or the CAPM (the latter of which is the first source for CAP members), it's a no go. And if you haven't read the new CAPM 39-1, I strenuously advise that you do.

In all fairness, JeffDG was talking about senior members doing firearm training with the NRA, which is not governed by CAPM 39-1.

I understand, Stormy, and the clarification lands well. While s'members can do NRA training, my impression was that he was pushing to get adult-member ability to wear the badge. Even at that, we need the reminder — how many times do we look around local units and see some pretty stupefying uniform violations?

Agree.

[LSThiker]

I would submit to you that the Marksmanship badge is a permanent award... until it is superceded by the next qualification.

The Marksmanship Badge is not permanent.  It only represents your last qualification.  If you score expert, you will wear expert.  On your next qual, if you score sharpshooter, you will wear sharpshooter and your expert is revoked.  Now, if you earned expert grenade and you never go to re-qual, then you will continue to wear expert grenade.  However, if you fail your next grenade qualification, your badge is revoked.  Your reference is AR 600-8-22.

[Luis R. Ramos]

LST,

Is not that which Shuman stated?

By Shuman ...until it is superceded by the next qualification.

By LST
...if you fail your next grenade qualification, your badge is revoked.

Failing and the ensuing disqualification... is superceding a qualification...

From the Free Dictionary...

su•per•sede (ˌsu pərˈsid)

v.t. -sed•ed, -sed•ing.
1. to replace in power, authority, effectiveness, acceptance, use, etc., as by another person or thing.
2. to set aside or cause to be set aside as void, useless, or obsolete, usu. in favor of something mentioned; make obsolete.
3. to succeed to the position, function, office, etc., of; supplant.

[LSThiker]

LST,

Is not that which Shuman stated?

Which makes it a non-permanent award. 

[Storm Chaser]

LST,

Is not that which Shuman stated?

By Shuman ...until it is superceded by the next qualification.

By LST
...if you fail your next grenade qualification, your badge is revoked.

Failing and the ensuing disqualification... is superceding a qualification...

From the Free Dictionary...

su•per•sede (ˌsu pərˈsid)

v.t. -sed•ed, -sed•ing.
1. to replace in power, authority, effectiveness, acceptance, use, etc., as by another person or thing.
2. to set aside or cause to be set aside as void, useless, or obsolete, usu. in favor of something mentioned; make obsolete.
3. to succeed to the position, function, office, etc., of; supplant.

But that's not the same as permanent. If you fail to re-qualify as GTL, but are qualified as GTM3, you can still wear the Senior Ground Team Badge; the same goes for aeronautical wings and IC badges. Those are all permanent awards.

We can argue about what constitute permanent or not, but the real issue Shuman is bringing is whether the Army Marksmanship Badge can be worn on the Air Force uniform. Instead of making the assumption that it can be based on one's interpretation of an instruction from another service, it's best to check with the Air Force as they decide which badges are allowed or not on their uniform.

[GroundHawg]

In 18 years in the Air Force (including AD, Guard and Reserve), I've never seen former Army Soldiers wearing this particular badge on an Air Force uniform.

They wear the Air Force Small Arms Expert Markmanship Ribbon instead. They get to put a bronze star on it if they qualify "expert" on two or more weapons.

And like you sir, in over 31-1/2 years in the Air Force/Air National Guard/Air Force Reserve, I never ever saw any former Soldier or Marine wearing their former service markmanship badges.

But our friend who posts from the Guard Shack because he's bored and likes to "stir things up" probably won't accept this answer.
meh...

Again the "new" Instruction has only been out about 6 months so that would explain the previous 31 years when it wasn't authorized... it is now.

And you know this because you're in the Air Force...? Right.

Does he have to be? Is an officer in the US Army not capable of reading and interpreting a sister services regulations?

[Storm Chaser]

In 18 years in the Air Force (including AD, Guard and Reserve), I've never seen former Army Soldiers wearing this particular badge on an Air Force uniform.

They wear the Air Force Small Arms Expert Markmanship Ribbon instead. They get to put a bronze star on it if they qualify "expert" on two or more weapons.

And like you sir, in over 31-1/2 years in the Air Force/Air National Guard/Air Force Reserve, I never ever saw any former Soldier or Marine wearing their former service markmanship badges.

But our friend who posts from the Guard Shack because he's bored and likes to "stir things up" probably won't accept this answer.
meh...

Again the "new" Instruction has only been out about 6 months so that would explain the previous 31 years when it wasn't authorized... it is now.

And you know this because you're in the Air Force...? Right.

Does he have to be? Is an officer in the US Army not capable of reading and interpreting a sister services regulations?

An Army officer shouldn't have to.

[NIN]

An Army officer shouldn't have to.

Uh, Goldwater-Nichols Act?

Officers of different branches are frequently familiar with sister service's regulations, especially when serving a joint tour.

[LATORRECA]

Soo..... What is the conclusion. Are we submitting a request to NHQ to set a review board to authorize it or not. 

5 x Expert Rifle, 3 x Expert pistol
Combat Marksmanship instructor
Combat marksmanship coach

All USMC..

I don't worry, I don't care if people knows it. The only thing I care is if in case I need to bare arms I know how to use it. Neither Cadets or civilians have to know that. If you want to be a "one upper"  >:(then wear all the badges you want.