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Tim Day
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Prince William Composite Squadron
« Reply #40 on: May 12, 2014, 02:31:09 PM »

Boonie hats with the bdu are specifical prohibited by the AF. CAP asked and was told no. CAP pulled the safety card and the AF said nice try, but no.

Except in the Soaring program, where you can wear any hat with your shorts and CAP T-shirt as an official CAP uniform. For safety and practicality reasons.
Which is why I said with the bdu. If you're wearing your shorts and CAP t-shirt, you are not wearing the bdu.

Yes you did. Sorry about that. Which gets back to my thought regarding a SAR uniform other-than-BDU if we want to be particularly strict wrt the Air Force-style uniforms even in the field.

I don't think we should have unrestricted options - all of the VA SAR groups I have encountered have some kind of dress code if not uniform. I just think our PPE list should be reasonably flexible and adapted for the environment where we're likely to be working.
The problem is too many members, seniors and cadets, don't understand the difference between what is accepted in the field and what is not acceptable at a meeting. I have seen too many of the "elite" or "hard-core" CAP GT folks wearing items that are specifically prohibited by reg at regular meetings and events with no field component. Their justification - It's what we wear in the field so it's OK at a meeting or I just don't care what the reg says, I'm wearing this.

Why is it necessary to wear a desert scarf in VA rather than have it in a pocket or pouch?

Agree. I can't answer the desert scarf question, as I've yet to hear anyone associated with SAR training advocate for their wearing. And by the way, I've seen aviators flaunting uniform regs, too... though that is outside the scope of this thread, I think.
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Tim Day
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« Reply #41 on: May 12, 2014, 02:32:10 PM »

I am curious if the guy standing next to the white van (not the person in the white shirt) is the presiding senior member.  I am pretty sure that the photo was not taken by a senior member, but rather a news correspondent.
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #42 on: May 12, 2014, 02:35:03 PM »

At first, I thought this was going to turn into the "40 page Cadetstuff.org Incorrect Uniform Wear" thread.  However, it has made the turn for the "which uniform should we be wearing" thread.

I've got most of those pictures, from all 3-4 topics backed up somewhere
...if you'd like.

Which version of the thread.  I think there was 3 versions:  the first was lost in the 1st great data dump.  The second was locked.  The 3rd was also locked, but I think was lost in the 2nd great data dump.  If I recall correctly.  It has been a while.  :)


Going back to before the dumps.
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #43 on: May 12, 2014, 02:38:49 PM »

"Semper Vi, cadets!"

Oh no... CAP members don't actually say that now do they?

Well, I don't run around saying it, but I've heard cadets say it and thought it appropriate in this case.

Well, the sad thing about this... is that regardless of what (if anything) these cadets actually did, it was overshadowed by the fact that some SM let them walk around like this.  We can spend all day pointing out what other agency wear and don't wear.  The issue here is that we have an agency (CAP) who uses kids (cadets) who show up looking like Airsoft commandos. In the public safety arena Id bet money this photo is being laughed at far more than its being applauded. 

SM:  "Look gents, I appreciate the motivation but lose the scarves and the desert assault gear"

Cadets : "But But But.. this stuff was expensive sir."

SM  "Well, then I hope you saved the receipt because you could have bought the appropriate gear for 1/2 of what you paid for that stuff.  Look around.... do you see anyone else wearing their authentic Afghani tribal head scarf?  No?  Lose it."


But they paid around $10 for it! Wasted resources! You can't make them NOT wear it.


http://www.ghostarmytacticalstore.com/arabdesertshemaghheadwrap.aspx
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Tim Day
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« Reply #44 on: May 12, 2014, 02:47:19 PM »

The issue here is that we have an agency (CAP) who uses kids (cadets) who show up looking like Airsoft commandos. In the public safety arena Id bet money this photo is being laughed at far more than its being applauded. 

Maybe. But what I heard from the SAR, LE, and EMS folks on scene was gratitude - for the ground tasks and especially for the communications support.
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Tim Day
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« Reply #45 on: May 12, 2014, 03:43:58 PM »

The Cadets showed up, they performed, they were appreciated.  Everything else is pure fluff.  If I were in their Chain of Command my next step would be to have each of the Cadets and Senior Members to write up a short After Action Report/Lessons Learned from their experience.  What went right, what was not so right and could have been done better, what additional/other training would have helped them, What equipment did they have they did not need, what equipment did they not have they did need. 
These statements could then be compiled with command notes added to address uniform issues (if any) into teaching learning points for the entire Squadron/Region.   There is no need to publically bust their chops for trying to be of service to others.
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #46 on: May 12, 2014, 03:47:45 PM »

The Cadets showed up, they performed, they were appreciated.  Everything else is pure fluff.  If I were in their Chain of Command my next step would be to have each of the Cadets and Senior Members to write up a short After Action Report/Lessons Learned from their experience.  What went right, what was not so right and could have been done better, what additional/other training would have helped them, What equipment did they have they did not need, what equipment did they not have they did need. 
These statements could then be compiled with command notes added to address uniform issues (if any) into teaching learning points for the entire Squadron/Region.   There is no need to publically bust their chops for trying to be of service to others.


Sometimes teens need a bit of balloon deflation though.


-BTDT former teen.
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Tim Day
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« Reply #47 on: May 12, 2014, 04:47:36 PM »

The Cadets showed up, they performed, they were appreciated.  Everything else is pure fluff.  If I were in their Chain of Command my next step would be to have each of the Cadets and Senior Members to write up a short After Action Report/Lessons Learned from their experience.  What went right, what was not so right and could have been done better, what additional/other training would have helped them, What equipment did they have they did not need, what equipment did they not have they did need. 
These statements could then be compiled with command notes added to address uniform issues (if any) into teaching learning points for the entire Squadron/Region.   There is no need to publically bust their chops for trying to be of service to others.


Sometimes teens need a bit of balloon deflation though.


-BTDT former teen.

Besides the total unprofessional inappropriateness of your comment considering the three human beings who lost their lives in this balloon mishap, a little self-righteousness reduction might be in order for so-called adults who want to bust the chops of teens that are actually out serving their community.

... If I were in their Chain of Command my next step would be to have each of the Cadets and Senior Members to write up a short After Action Report/Lessons Learned from their experience.  What went right, what was not so right and could have been done better, what additional/other training would have helped them, What equipment did they have they did not need, what equipment did they not have they did need. 
These statements could then be compiled with command notes added to address uniform issues (if any) into teaching learning points for the entire Squadron/Region.   There is no need to publically bust their chops for trying to be of service to others.

 :clap:
« Last Edit: May 12, 2014, 04:50:50 PM by Tim Day » Report to moderator   Logged
Tim Day
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« Reply #48 on: May 12, 2014, 04:55:20 PM »

What I'm taking away from this thread is a mixed bag. Some are saying we did a good job and are appreciated. Some, including me, while appreciative of the response, are more worried about the public perception more than the actual job at hand. Some are just concerned about the fact that this picture or pictures will do nothing other than harm CAP's public image by having these hard-kore tak-ti-kewl GI Joe/Jane wannabes running around acting like...well, like camouflaged teenagers doing what any teen would do when put in a uniform with military gear.

The knee-jerk gut reaction is valid, in my opinion. First impressions of teens wandering around wearing shemaghs (did I spell that right?) and tactical gear and boonie hats at an incident can be negative. Had I been the team leader, I would have told them to dress appropriately for the occasion because EYES ARE EVERYWHERE. This is a prime example. On any other day, these cadets would think nothing of wearing this type of gear, but now that John Q Public sees them as potential "terrorists in camo" or "military wannabes", they are going to get administratively smacked down at some point in the near future, and a whole new set of dicta will probably be issued by their Wing, Region, or NHQ regarding proper uniform and equipment. You can't argue with photographic evidence and you can't unsee that sort of thing.

These cadets DID take the time away from their Pac-Man and the latest K-Tel 8-track to perform a mission. We can't lose sight of that. We also can't lose sight of the fact that every time we go out in public, former military, former CAP members, people who hate kids, prospective members, and well-intentioned folks will always be watching us and what we do and how we dress. Since we don't wear a currently issued military uniform, we get scrutinized. Some think we're some kind of Mountain Men militia trainees or whatnot. We can't give anyone an excuse to downgrade us based on our appearance and actions.

The past incidents, such as the Massachusetts Smokey-bear TI cadet, should stand out as examples of what not to do or tolerate. Yes, we can accomplish our mission, but not at the cost of negative public opinion.

/rant
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Garibaldi
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« Reply #49 on: May 12, 2014, 04:56:34 PM »

The Cadets showed up, they performed, they were appreciated.  Everything else is pure fluff.  If I were in their Chain of Command my next step would be to have each of the Cadets and Senior Members to write up a short After Action Report/Lessons Learned from their experience.  What went right, what was not so right and could have been done better, what additional/other training would have helped them, What equipment did they have they did not need, what equipment did they not have they did need. 
These statements could then be compiled with command notes added to address uniform issues (if any) into teaching learning points for the entire Squadron/Region.   There is no need to publically bust their chops for trying to be of service to others.


Sometimes teens need a bit of balloon deflation though.


-BTDT former teen.

Too soon.  :-[
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antdetroitwallyball
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« Reply #50 on: May 12, 2014, 04:59:41 PM »

Hehe......saw this same news clip yesterday.


Maybe a little on the extreme end with the gear, but if he is following the regs well otherwise, maybe not the end of the world?

I was just happy to see that CAP units do still get call-outs in some communities. We could be talking about "CAP in the news" in a much worse situation than this. I'm not too worried about this one.

Having said this, I too have personally have seen a slightly over-outfitted cadets. I roll my eyes, and remind myself that they are still young and maturity may not be 100% there yet.
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Tim Day
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« Reply #51 on: May 12, 2014, 05:07:34 PM »


The past incidents, such as the Massachusetts Smokey-bear TI cadet, should stand out as examples of what not to do or tolerate. Yes, we can accomplish our mission, but not at the cost of negative public opinion.

/rant

I've seen some of SAR groups change outer clothing outside of mission base. They'll take off the nice uniform shirt and put on the bright orange rip-stop nylon and hip waders or whatever. Maybe they've had more up-to-date public affairs training across their membership.

I think you're right about the public image issue, and it should be addressed through guidance that allows teams in the diverse environments from Georgia to Virginia to Alaska to wear appropriate personal protective equipment. Even within states the environment can differ dramatically. CAP can't afford to equip every member with a standard set of BDU everything like the military would.

We have to have standards that take both appearance and attainability (affordability, availability, size ranges) into account. In a way, that's a much harder challenge than faced by the military. Taking cues from other SAR agencies would probably be a good start.
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Tim Day
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #52 on: May 12, 2014, 05:24:12 PM »

Besides the total unprofessional inappropriateness of your comment considering the three human beings who lost their lives in this balloon mishap, a little self-righteousness reduction might be in order for so-called adults who want to bust the chops of teens that are actually out serving their community.


To be fair...that slipped my mind. No connotation was meant, though given the specific case, I can see the issue. So to restate, I just made an unfortunately dumb symbolic statement, based on the given situation. Truly wasn't thinking about the fact that this was a ballooning incident. My apologies to anyone who was offended by my choice of words, I certainly wouldn't say something like that in respect to the people who died in the incident, or any incident.
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arajca
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« Reply #53 on: May 12, 2014, 05:31:53 PM »

We have to have standards that take both appearance and attainability (affordability, availability, size ranges) into account. In a way, that's a much harder challenge than faced by the military. Taking cues from other SAR agencies would probably be a good start.
The other thing that has to happen is we have to have member who will adhere to said standards. We pretty much do have good standards, but we also have far too many members - cadet and senior - who "know better" and disregard said standards because they don't present the hard-kewl appearance they want to project. Once that problem can be solved, or at least reduced to the occasion odd-ball, we start modifying uniforms.
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Brit_in_CAP
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« Reply #54 on: May 12, 2014, 06:09:38 PM »

 :clap:
That was Day 1 as a CDC, when the cadets arrived for an evening ES training at the squadron.

Two of them had the headgear.....by thirty seconds into the session it was off and stowed.  Not sighted since!
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Flying Pig
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« Reply #55 on: May 12, 2014, 06:49:10 PM »


This photo speaks to me a lot louder than just improper gear selection.  In my current air unit, when I got here we had a lot of completely useless volunteer types running around who were actually involved with the air unit.  Not something I was used to, although... I did have plenty of experience with volunteers via CAP.  What is the FIRST thing I did?  Here are some ideas....

#1. If you aren't invited, you don't show up. To many people were just hanging out with nothing to offer.
#2.  If you are invited and you chose to show up, you WILL wear the designated flight suit uniform only.  Which means you WILL NOT add your own patches, you WILL NOT bring gear that I have not personally approved and put it anywhere near my aircraft or on your body.
#3. You WILL direct any media questions or official contacts to a full time paid member of the unit or other designated volunteer. 
#4.  If we, as an organization, ever have to make an excuse or apologize for your actions, or decide you are a liability, refer to rule #1. 

If you don't have the maturity to wear appropriate gear and not look like an Airsoft team leader, then perhaps its not time for you to respond to a scene with dead bodies.  Not for a second would looking this ridiculous ever cross my mind when presented with showing up to a real mission.   Is it the end of the world?  Of course not.  Does it make CAP look silly to other professional organizations?  Yes it does.  But this is the photo that made it into the media.  As someone who is paid to do SAR as a mission full time, I rolled my eyes and shook my head.  My first thought wasn't "well at least they got called."  or "Good to see cadets out helping."    My first thought was "Can someone call their mother to come pick them up please?"   These cadets look silly and nobody there told them.

Interesting that the other cadet isn't decked out like a commando though isn't it?  So this is something these two decided to do on their own.  The argument for cadets working in ES is that they are learning.  Well guess what doesn't fly in professional SAR?   Any guesses?  How about making your own rules?  When you look at this in an organizational discipline aspect, these cadets were comfortable enough to bend the standards to the point that allowed them to end up like this.  If an adult showed up to a SAR operation as a volunteer dressed like that, any organization worth their weight would thank them and send them on their way.  Kids get some leeway because they are kids.  So if thats how we are going to treat them, like kids, and give them a pass because they are kids, then they have no business responding to life altering missions, with deceased victims, dressing like kids playing a game.   

So what needs to happen?  These cadets don't need disciplined, nobody needs written up or 2b'd.  What needs to happen is someone from that Group or even Wing needs to get on the horn and insure its handled and that we don't have cadets and/or seniors representing CAP like a bunch of kids out playing in their back yard.   Ive worked in CAP and with SAR volunteers who brought amazing skill and training to the table and Ive worked with volunteers who were compete idiots who were volunteering because they couldn't hold a job. 

Give cadets a purpose, let them learn and experience,  but don't let them make fools out of themselves in the process. 
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« Reply #56 on: May 12, 2014, 06:58:53 PM »

We use ammo pouches in the Army for a lot of things... Holding snacks is my favorite  :clap:

+1 same here.  8)
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Flying Pig
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« Reply #57 on: May 12, 2014, 07:00:03 PM »

But unlike CAP.... ultimately those magazine pouches are for magazines loaded with real bullets.
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« Reply #58 on: May 12, 2014, 07:06:12 PM »

They have time for affections like shemaghs, but not to get the safety equipment required?


Well to be "tacticool" you need the shemagh and did you notice the Cadets were attempting to grow beards? When they get their allowance they need Oakley sunglasses because to be a legit Ranger/Operator you need cool stuff, like me   8)
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MSG Mac
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« Reply #59 on: May 12, 2014, 07:12:05 PM »

Is this horse dead yet?
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Michael P. McEleney
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