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Luis R. Ramos
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« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2014, 02:06:57 AM »

Not another post asking to wear another uniform. Then why call them uniforms? We should start asking NHQ to rename CAPR 39-1 the Non-Uniform Regulation.

Practical? That is what the BDU is. Economic. Having yet another set of clothes - I will not call that a uniform - increases costs for members. And no, blue is not more visible in the woods. It can become hidden in the shadows.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2014, 02:12:31 AM by Luis R. Ramos » Report to moderator   Logged
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Eclipse
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« Reply #21 on: May 12, 2014, 02:08:48 AM »

Considering that the vast majority of ES training and missions are USAF-funded, the likelyhood of that even being
considered, let alone approved, is pretty slim.

No organization on CAP's scale should be doing work in the public eye without a clear identifier in the
form of some uniform clothing.

Where that would land is debatable - most agencies that do the kind of work we do are dressed
in khakis and golf shirts, so that is certainly a reasonable place to start.

Tac pants and a reasonable long-sleeve shirt with an insignia on it, would certainly go a long way towards fixing this
issue.  Heck, just fall onto jeans with an ANSI yellow long sleeve shirt and yellow hat and get your stuff at Menard's.

A team of anything dressed in the same clothes and colors would be preferable to the mis-mash we have to day,
and if NHQ is really re-working the SAR curriculum, some attention needs to be given to what is appropriate
for carrying the gear.

Not another post asking to wear another uniform. Then why call them uniforms? We should start asking NHQ to rename CAPR 39-1 the Non-Uniform Regulation.

As you may recall, the proper, approved* term is "multiform".

* I approved it last year.


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LSThiker
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« Reply #22 on: May 12, 2014, 02:32:18 AM »

At first, I thought this was going to turn into the "40 page Cadetstuff.org Incorrect Uniform Wear" thread.  However, it has made the turn for the "which uniform should we be wearing" thread.
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husker
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« Reply #23 on: May 12, 2014, 02:48:10 AM »


The scarves are probably not justifiable. But a wide brimmed hat protects from the sun. I wear a climbing helmet with my head lamp on SAR missions. I also wear gaiters and civilian lightweight gortex boots. And a red backpack like NESA recommends. That's not an authorized uniform either.

As an aside, NESA does not recommend a specific color of backpack.  We do sell a red backpack as a merchandize item, but it is not designed for 24 hour wear.
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Michael Long, Lt Col CAP
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The14th
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« Reply #24 on: May 12, 2014, 08:38:15 AM »

Does that one Cadet have BROWN boots on? Like, not even military boots, but like Timberland trail hiking boots?
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Tim Day
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Prince William Composite Squadron
« Reply #25 on: May 12, 2014, 11:21:53 AM »


The scarves are probably not justifiable. But a wide brimmed hat protects from the sun. I wear a climbing helmet with my head lamp on SAR missions. I also wear gaiters and civilian lightweight gortex boots. And a red backpack like NESA recommends. That's not an authorized uniform either.

As an aside, NESA does not recommend a specific color of backpack.  We do sell a red backpack as a merchandize item, but it is not designed for 24 hour wear.

Yes, you do. At least in your published gear list. Red or orange.

Edit: I apologize for the tone of this response. I realize the course materials are dated and may not reflect your current recommendations. I think NESA could play a very helpful role in the standardizing of our SAR "uniform" in a way that takes into account unique demands of the various environments where we work.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2014, 12:26:19 PM by Tim Day » Report to moderator   Logged
Tim Day
Lt Col CAP
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Tim Day
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« Reply #26 on: May 12, 2014, 11:26:30 AM »

Considering that the vast majority of ES training and missions are USAF-funded, the likelyhood of that even being
considered, let alone approved, is pretty slim.

No organization on CAP's scale should be doing work in the public eye without a clear identifier in the
form of some uniform clothing.

Where that would land is debatable - most agencies that do the kind of work we do are dressed
in khakis and golf shirts, so that is certainly a reasonable place to start.

Tac pants and a reasonable long-sleeve shirt with an insignia on it, would certainly go a long way towards fixing this
issue.  Heck, just fall onto jeans with an ANSI yellow long sleeve shirt and yellow hat and get your stuff at Menard's.

A team of anything dressed in the same clothes and colors would be preferable to the mis-mash we have to day,
and if NHQ is really re-working the SAR curriculum, some attention needs to be given to what is appropriate
for carrying the gear.

Not another post asking to wear another uniform. Then why call them uniforms? We should start asking NHQ to rename CAPR 39-1 the Non-Uniform Regulation.

As you may recall, the proper, approved* term is "multiform".

* I approved it last year.

Our Soaring program is also Air Force funded. And no, BDUs without gaiters, helmets, packable raingear, and other PPE are not practical, at least not hear in Virginia. Not my opinion, our state SAR folks' list / recommendations.

EDIT:

Sorry, Eclipse, somehow I missed your line about the khakis and golf shirts. That's reasonable. In fact, why not gray trou and dark blue shirt aligned with our current gray/blues, and retain the requirement for an ANSI 2 safety vest.

To add:

Most of the groups here in VA specify "no jeans or 100% cotton clothing" and they have required uniforms, which their members agree not to wear unless on a call-out or officially representing their specific group.

In my early GSAR training, it was pointed out to me that BDUs and combat boots by themselves are inadequate for SAR. Most of my instructors changed into good hiking boots prior to field operations. I was skeptical of the uniform "enhancements" as well, but after a few missions on the ground I realized that I needed civilian water-proof, breathable, hiking boots (or their very expensive black equivalents) and gaiters. It doesn't take many exercises where our members with their issue combat boots are dropping out with foot problems while the state SAR folks with a range of footwear are still going strong to realize the need.

Team leaders are required to carry a helmet, and team members are strongly encouraged to carry one. Evac crews are required to wear helmets for their protection and that of the subject. When someone yells "rock" everyone leans in and uses their helmet-clad noggins to shield the subject. The SAR groups typically don't require everyone to wear one all the time - they bring along a bag of helmets for the evac crew just in case - but the expectation is that everyone who commits to the team will buy one eventually.

All that said, I think we need to find a balance of environmentally-appropriate personal protective equipment (PPE) and the trend to customize beyond what's really required. It may be that a list of authorized PPE could be generated by each Wing and reviewed by the Region, with Regional lists reviewed by the NUC.

I agree that teams should present a consistent appearance and be identifiable as CAP members. Again, I've not heard anyone advocate scarves (although wide-brimmed hats are certainly better sunprotection than ballcaps / patrol caps) and I don't know that they'd make the PPE list.

Again, there is good precedent for uniform modifications to suit the environment, both in the military and in CAP (Soaring Program, for example).
« Last Edit: May 12, 2014, 12:20:54 PM by Tim Day » Report to moderator   Logged
Tim Day
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Devil Doc
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« Reply #27 on: May 12, 2014, 12:23:15 PM »

The only thing I see wrong is not wearing the ANSI Vest, and the cadet with Black and Brown Boots.  Red or Orange backpack is on the "Gear" list, but it also states any backpack or ruck sack. I personally have an ACU backpack with Internal Frame, and use an old school Load Bearing Vest. I put my Orange vest on under my LBV, I wear my Orange Hat and Orange Shirt, that is alot of orange to be seen.
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Captain Brandon P. Smith CAP
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Tim Day
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Posts: 259
Unit: MER-VA-102

Prince William Composite Squadron
« Reply #28 on: May 12, 2014, 12:43:15 PM »

The only thing I see wrong is not wearing the ANSI Vest, and the cadet with Black and Brown Boots.  Red or Orange backpack is on the "Gear" list, but it also states any backpack or ruck sack. I personally have an ACU backpack with Internal Frame, and use an old school Load Bearing Vest. I put my Orange vest on under my LBV, I wear my Orange Hat and Orange Shirt, that is alot of orange to be seen.

I think it's reasonable to allow civilian hiking boots in certain environments. If members are going to invest in gortex boots, they may as well be able to wear them hiking. Civilian hiking boots are much more commercially available, thus less expensive, thus less of a barrier to entry.

As you know, Doc, the military prescribes civilian running shoes to be worn with the uniform for people with foot injuries - not exactly the same situation, but evidence that even the RM has a capacity to recognize "practical and safe".

My concern is that the fact that cadets were seen on national TV wearing BDU boonie hats and desert scarves may impact your use of an orange hat and orange shirt (which technically is just as egregious as wearing brown hiking boots) and my use of a blue climbing helmet, gaiters, and civilian hiking boots (and the red gortex rain and wind shell I pack).

The unauthorized items we're wearing are based on practical experience working in our respective environments; they make us safer and more effective searchers. But I do think a way needs to be found to standardize what we wear within reason, and I understand the predicament of our leadership now that it's more and more likely that our members will find themselves on national TV.
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Tim Day
Lt Col CAP
Prince William Composite Squadron Commander
Flying Pig
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« Reply #29 on: May 12, 2014, 12:54:19 PM »

"Semper Vi, cadets!"

Oh no... CAP members don't actually say that now do they?
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Devil Doc
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« Reply #30 on: May 12, 2014, 01:16:16 PM »

I thought wearing Orange hat and shirt was Authorized? Yes, I do understand we need to wear aftermarket boots, im old school and wear military jungle boots, im too cheap to wear anything else. Why is everybody disgruntled about the BDU in a Search and Rescue environment? Ive seen numrous SAR teams wear "Cammo" when doing there searches. Ive actually never seen a team "Uniform" either. They have the recommended gear, but alot of them wear different things, for there own creature comfort. I dont care what we wear, as long as we are doing the techniques correctly, and find our target.


On second Thought, I do not see why we do not get used more. I have hear Numrous stories where CAP found the "Target" within a few hours when other team were searching for days, and of course CAP did not get credit.
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Captain Brandon P. Smith CAP
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arajca
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« Reply #31 on: May 12, 2014, 01:30:44 PM »

Boonie hats with the bdu are specifical prohibited by the AF. CAP asked and was told no. CAP pulled the safety card and the AF said nice try, but no.

Desert scarves have never been authorized and, given the environment they are in, are an affectation, not a necessary gear item.

Hiking boots instead of black combat boots on a ground team sortie? Fine. I recommend trying to find black or dark colored ones. The same boots at a unit meeting? Not fine.
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arajca
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« Reply #32 on: May 12, 2014, 01:36:51 PM »

I thought wearing Orange hat and shirt was Authorized?
In some wings, but not throughout CAP.

Quote
Why is everybody disgruntled about the BDU in a Search and Rescue environment? Ive seen numrous SAR teams wear "Cammo" when doing there searches. Ive actually never seen a team "Uniform" either. They have the recommended gear, but alot of them wear different things, for there own creature comfort. I dont care what we wear, as long as we are doing the techniques correctly, and find our target.
I tend to agree. There are few who wear all cotton bdus. Most have some sort of cotton/poly or cotton/nylon blend.

Quote
On second Thought, I do not see why we do not get used more. I have hear Numrous stories where CAP found the "Target" within a few hours when other team were searching for days, and of course CAP did not get credit.
CAP has had some less than stellar performers show up without proper gear or clothing in multiple instances. Also, some CAP members have had the "I'm with the Feds and I'm taking over" mentality. Granted, this may be ancient history, but institutions have long memories. Also, some SAR agencies and sheriff's are very protective of their turf and view CAP as 'outsiders'.
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sarmed1
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« Reply #33 on: May 12, 2014, 01:46:45 PM »

.......

The unauthorized items we're wearing are based on practical experience working in our respective environments; they make us safer and more effective searchers. But I do think a way needs to be found to standardize what we wear within reason, and I understand the predicament of our leadership now that it's more and more likely that our members will find themselves on national TV.
The problem here, these issues (the cadets in question) aren't for safety and effectiveness......they are for tactikewl.  CAP is not the only agency with these issues.  Most every fire ems or sar agency paid or volunteer has the same thing happen. (So let's not act like they are all some almighty powerfull transcended individuals when it comes to gear and uniforms issues)
I have seen sar teams that try and look more like SWAT.  Just about every fire dept in my area about 10-12 years ago switched from a "ben franklin" style helmet to a "traditional" style..why?.... because FDNY wears it.  Many started wearing radio staps job shirts for the same reason.
If you want better uniforms or gear the simple answer is pay for it.  They make bdus that are not 100% cotton.  They make black boots in gortex.  Its not the boots.  Otherwise somehow I doubt  military members who's job it is to walk far under heavy loads in difficult terrain and hash conditions would be effective.  Its usually poor fitted ill suited boots that CAP members choose for looks rather than function. ( I have been wearing military style or issue boots for over 27 years and have  never had problems....I have had different boots for different tasks, meetings/garrison wear, fieldwear, hot weather, wet weather, cold weather or some that are multi role)

MK
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Mark Kleibscheidel
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« Reply #34 on: May 12, 2014, 01:49:15 PM »

At first, I thought this was going to turn into the "40 page Cadetstuff.org Incorrect Uniform Wear" thread.  However, it has made the turn for the "which uniform should we be wearing" thread.

I've got most of those pictures, from all 3-4 topics backed up somewhere
...if you'd like.
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NC Hokie
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« Reply #35 on: May 12, 2014, 01:59:51 PM »

"Semper Vi, cadets!"

Oh no... CAP members don't actually say that now do they?

Well, I don't run around saying it, but I've heard cadets say it and thought it appropriate in this case.
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NC Hokie, Lt Col, CAP

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LSThiker
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« Reply #36 on: May 12, 2014, 02:05:13 PM »

At first, I thought this was going to turn into the "40 page Cadetstuff.org Incorrect Uniform Wear" thread.  However, it has made the turn for the "which uniform should we be wearing" thread.

I've got most of those pictures, from all 3-4 topics backed up somewhere
...if you'd like.

Which version of the thread.  I think there was 3 versions:  the first was lost in the 1st great data dump.  The second was locked.  The 3rd was also locked, but I think was lost in the 2nd great data dump.  If I recall correctly.  It has been a while.  :)
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Tim Day
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« Reply #37 on: May 12, 2014, 02:10:52 PM »

.......

The unauthorized items we're wearing are based on practical experience working in our respective environments; they make us safer and more effective searchers. But I do think a way needs to be found to standardize what we wear within reason, and I understand the predicament of our leadership now that it's more and more likely that our members will find themselves on national TV.
The problem here, these issues (the cadets in question) aren't for safety and effectiveness......they are for tactikewl.  CAP is not the only agency with these issues.  Most every fire ems or sar agency paid or volunteer has the same thing happen. (So let's not act like they are all some almighty powerfull transcended individuals when it comes to gear and uniforms issues)

You're speculating as to their motives, but you're probably right. I agree on the issue of the other fire EMS / SAR folks. The SERT folks wore 3' machetes... which I thought were ridiculous but actually turned out useful on a swampy area task.

If you want better uniforms or gear the simple answer is pay for it.  They make bdus that are not 100% cotton.  They make black boots in gortex.  Its not the boots.  Otherwise somehow I doubt  military members who's job it is to walk far under heavy loads in difficult terrain and hash conditions would be effective.  Its usually poor fitted ill suited boots that CAP members choose for looks rather than function. ( I have been wearing military style or issue boots for over 27 years and have  never had problems....I have had different boots for different tasks, meetings/garrison wear, fieldwear, hot weather, wet weather, cold weather or some that are multi role)

MK

Agree, although, black gortex boots are more expensive and less available than good civilian hiking boots. They are less likely to be available in your size via Sierra Trading post or equivalent discount outlets. And no one really cares what color your boots are when you're searching. Most boots turned swamp-muck brown after a task or two anyway, and not a single SAR group present commented on our appearance.

I don't think we should have unrestricted options - all of the VA SAR groups I have encountered have some kind of dress code if not uniform. I just think our PPE list should be reasonably flexible and adapted for the environment where we're likely to be working.

Boonie hats with the bdu are specifical prohibited by the AF. CAP asked and was told no. CAP pulled the safety card and the AF said nice try, but no.

Except in the Soaring program, where you can wear any hat with your shorts and CAP T-shirt as an official CAP uniform. For safety and practicality reasons.
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Tim Day
Lt Col CAP
Prince William Composite Squadron Commander
arajca
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« Reply #38 on: May 12, 2014, 02:14:01 PM »

Boonie hats with the bdu are specifical prohibited by the AF. CAP asked and was told no. CAP pulled the safety card and the AF said nice try, but no.

Except in the Soaring program, where you can wear any hat with your shorts and CAP T-shirt as an official CAP uniform. For safety and practicality reasons.
Which is why I said with the bdu. If you're wearing your shorts and CAP t-shirt, you are not wearing the bdu.

I don't think we should have unrestricted options - all of the VA SAR groups I have encountered have some kind of dress code if not uniform. I just think our PPE list should be reasonably flexible and adapted for the environment where we're likely to be working.
The problem is too many members, seniors and cadets, don't understand the difference between what is accepted in the field and what is not acceptable at a meeting. I have seen too many of the "elite" or "hard-core" CAP GT folks wearing items that are specifically prohibited by reg at regular meetings and events with no field component. Their justification - It's what we wear in the field so it's OK at a meeting or I just don't care what the reg says, I'm wearing this.

Why is it necessary to wear a desert scarf in VA rather than have it in a pocket or pouch?
« Last Edit: May 12, 2014, 02:25:11 PM by arajca » Report to moderator   Logged
Flying Pig
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« Reply #39 on: May 12, 2014, 02:26:25 PM »

"Semper Vi, cadets!"

Oh no... CAP members don't actually say that now do they?

Well, I don't run around saying it, but I've heard cadets say it and thought it appropriate in this case.

Well, the sad thing about this... is that regardless of what (if anything) these cadets actually did, it was overshadowed by the fact that some SM let them walk around like this.  We can spend all day pointing out what other agency wear and don't wear.  The issue here is that we have an agency (CAP) who uses kids (cadets) who show up looking like Airsoft commandos. In the public safety arena Id bet money this photo is being laughed at far more than its being applauded. 

SM:  "Look gents, I appreciate the motivation but lose the scarves and the desert assault gear"

Cadets : "But But But.. this stuff was expensive sir."

SM  "Well, then I hope you saved the receipt because you could have bought the appropriate gear for 1/2 of what you paid for that stuff.  Look around.... do you see anyone else wearing their authentic Afghani tribal head scarf?  No?  Lose it." 
« Last Edit: May 12, 2014, 02:29:39 PM by Flying Pig » Report to moderator   Logged
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