Ribbon Question

[VNY]

I would expect the same response from the CGAux to the CAP Member wanting to wear the air medal on the CGAux uniform.

The air medal is a military decoration and as such is allowed.  The circumstances or status of the person it was awarded to are irrelevant.

[Slim]

Per CAPR 39-3, Section A, paragraph 3b:

Decorations, ribbons, and badges authorized for wear on the U.S. Air Force uniform may be worn on the CAP AF-style uniform when earned through qualification and awarded by competent authority to a member for service performed in any branch of the Armed Forces of the United States or its allies as outlined in CAPM 39-1.

Per CAPM 39-1, Chapter 5, paragraph 5-4:

Military service ribbons may be worn on the CAP AF-style uniform provided they were awarded in writing by competent military authority. Awards of the Air Force, Army, Navy, Marine Corps, or Coast Guard will be worn in the order prescribed by the awarding service, subject to the following: In all cases of relative priority, Air Force awards will take precedence. See Table 5-3. Awards for wars, campaigns, expeditions etc., will be worn in chronological sequence.

The two phrases highlighted are the crux of the problem, IMO.

Is a member of an auxiliary considered to be "Performing service in" that branch?  Is a member of the USCGAux considered to be a "Member" of the Coast Guard?  Back when it was allowed, could a CAP member complete the USAF small arms qualification course, and wear the ribbon if they scored high enough to qualify as an expert marksman?

CAPR 39-3, which governs awards and decorations, says one thing, while CAPM 39-1 says another.  Which one takes precedence?  Again, IMO, CAPR 39-3 should, logically be the deciding reg as it covers who can wear military awards and decorations, while CAPM 39-1 should only cover how they are worn.  One of those wonderful inconsistencies that I don't remember seeing either way in the draft reg being considered.

So, I don't think its as clear as everyone seems to think.  BITD, I wore my two USCGAux earned Coast Guard ribbons (Outstanding Unit Citation with operational designator and second award star, and the CG Special Operations ribbon) on my USAF style uniform.  And, the first time I wore them outside of my squadron, was promptly told to take them off as I didn't earn them as a member of the Coast Guard.  But, I did have the orders issued by the group (now sector) office for all of them, and included them in my files at the time.  My argument was that they were-in fact-awarded by competent military authority (an active duty USCG captain) IAW CAPM 39-1.  The other side's argument was that I didn't earn the awards as a member of the Coast Guard, per CAPR 39-3.  In the end, it was enough of a pain in the FPOC for me that taking them off was a much easier option than having to constantly fight a battle over a couple inches of colored ribbon.  Well, that and changing over to corporate uniforms only.

Along similar lines, I know of CAP members who have been told to remove the AF Expert Small Arms Marksmanship ribbon they were wearing, despite having the AF form 522 (IIRC, that was the range qualification card used by CATM) in their file.

Knowing that the OP is in the same geographic area that I'm in, my advice to you would be to save yourself a lot of aspirin/Tylenol and just not bother with wearing them.  After all, as you say, it's not about the chest candy, right?

[VNY]

Is a member of an auxiliary considered to be "Performing service in" that branch?  Is a member of the USCGAux considered to be a "Member" of the Coast Guard?

Yes.  And no conditions on that - just "yes"

Back when it was allowed, could a CAP member complete the USAF small arms qualification course, and wear the ribbon if they scored high enough to qualify as an expert marksman?

If the USAF personnel conducting the class awarded it, again yes.  But that was also before the auxon  / auxoff stuff started, so its not so clear now.

[VNY]

Military decorations are irrelevant to CAP membership and AFAIC should just be eliminated in lieu of wearing only CAP decs.

I had Ultrathin make me up a row of just my top three military awards.  I wear that on my CAP Service blues and CG Aux uniforms only because these REQUIRE you to wear at least some ribbons if you have them.  The AUX lets you wear just your top three if you so choose and as this also satisfies the CAP service coat requirement I go with that.

I won't wear everything I have unless I'm doing videos for a new version of "Command and Conquer"

[Eclipse]

Why don't you just wear CAP decs?

[PHall]

If the USAF personnel conducting the class awarded it, again yes.  But that was also before the auxon  / auxoff stuff started, so its not so clear now.

Ah, but the guys running range do not award anything. They just certify that you shot at or above the minimum score needed to qualify for "Expert".
Your unit commander in the Air Force is the one who "awards" the Small Arms Expert Markmanship ribbon.
The Air Force Unit Commander does not have authority to award any awards or decorations to anyone not assigned to their unit.
So the urban myth about the Air Force awarding CAP members the Small Arms Expert Markmanship ribbon is just that, an urban myth.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

So the urban myth about the Air Force awarding CAP members the Small Arms Expert Markmanship ribbon is just that, an urban myth.

I have personally met a CAP member who told me he qualified on a Kentucky ANG base and the base commander signed off for his ribbon.

[But that was also before the auxon  / auxoff stuff started, so its not so clear now.

How is that pertinent?  If you are on an Air Force (or ANG/AFRES) installation, working with Air Force personnel (which, granted, does not happen nearly as much as in the CGAUX with their parent service), chances are very good you're in AUXON mode.  I think that AUXON/OFF mode is a crock of Bravo Sierra anyway.

[PHall]

So the urban myth about the Air Force awarding CAP members the Small Arms Expert Markmanship ribbon is just that, an urban myth.

I have personally met a CAP member who told me he qualified on a Kentucky ANG base and the base commander signed off for his ribbon.

Too bad the base commander didn't have that authority.

But what do I know?  I was just the Weapons Qualification NCO for my unit.
I was the guy who scheduled people to go shoot, updated their qualification and issued them their gun card after the Commander signed the card.
I also sent the roster of people who shot expert to the Commander so that they could be awarded their ribbon after the Commander signed off on it.

[antdetroitwallyball]

Knowing that the OP is in the same geographic area that I'm in, my advice to you would be to save yourself a lot of aspirin/Tylenol and just not bother with wearing them.  After all, as you say, it's not about the chest candy, right?

Yup. Good Point. Let's just be honest: these auxiliary services tend to have a bunch of Old [Filter Subversion] who have something to prove, wrong attitudes, or misplaced intentions. You would think that simply following the regs would keep anyone from taking issue with you on some point. But CAP has like what, 50,000 people? Someone is bound to get offended.

Personally, I think that the auxiliaries (CGAUX and CAP) tend to give out too many ribbons. In the CGAUX, we do public affairs events wearing a chest full of ribbons. I think do this cheapens the value of the ribbons earned by those in combat theatres, etc. They earned the ribbons. We earned the "Kid's soccer medal" (e.g. "everyone gets an award!"). I'm more than confident that CAP is just as "guilty" here as the CGAUX... So in short, I will be very much limiting when and how much I wear any ribbons.

Why don't you just wear CAP decs?

Because until I actually do something noteworthy in CAP, I won't wear any ribbons. Correct me if I'm wrong, but CAP has a ribbon for just being a member, right? Of course, I get that when in a CAP uniform, I'm a CAP member, not a CGAUX member, and so the overwhelming emphasis of ribbons (should there be any) should be CAP ribbons, not CG-related stuff.

Interestingly, CAP apparently has ribbons that can be awarded to CAPer's who are credited with distress/non-distress finds. The CGAUX does not. On average, I personnally can take direct credit for about two lives saved per year, and most auxies who participate in the way that I do can expect on average to accomplish the same each year. We don't get any awards or recognition for this unless the circumstances were extreme. However, this is an example where I think we should get a ribbon or something, and yet so such award currently exists. CAP seems to have a better model here....

I guess I have nothing against the ribbons in general, its just that I don't get so into them. So people are real big into that kind of stuff, and as long as they stay within the regs, it's their perogative to do so. Just not my cup of tea, that's all.....

[Mitchell 1969]

So the urban myth about the Air Force awarding CAP members the Small Arms Expert Markmanship ribbon is just that, an urban myth.

I have personally met a CAP member who told me he qualified on a Kentucky ANG base and the base commander signed off for his ribbon.

Too bad the base commander didn't have that authority.

But what do I know?  I was just the Weapons Qualification NCO for my unit.
I was the guy who scheduled people to go shoot, updated their qualification and issued them their gun card after the Commander signed the card.
I also sent the roster of people who shot expert to the Commander so that they could be awarded their ribbon after the Commander signed off on it.

Yeah....but....


I was "awarded" the Small Arms Ribbon under similar circumstances as a cadet. At the time, we were told that, yes, it was "legal" etc. We had something signed by LtCol Harry Hobgoblin, USAF, stating that we had "earned" a USAF award on a USAF base. It was totally unexpected and nobody in CAP or USAF said that it didn't count.

I think I wore it once or twice. Until I realized that, as one of the lowest ranking USAF ribbons, it didn't mean as much to me as my IACE ribbon, Encampment Ribbon or Earhart Award, among others. I took it off.

[Cliff_Chambliss]

Maybe I should not be saying anything since I have decided to terminate my CAP affiliation when the current membership expires, but this discussion briefly touches part of the reason I am leaving.
It's easy to see where the confusion comes from, there is not a single definitive point of reference.  It seems to be look at this reg, but this other reg contradicts, wait, look at the Air Force  reg, oops, ask NHQ.  This seems to be a very dysfunctional way to run an organization.
  A chart could be prepared to show exactly what is approved for wear on the CAP uniform.  No more checking Army, AF, Navy, etc charts.  A  If it's not here it's not authorized Chart would answer a lot if not almost all these questions. 
Also, CAP needs to clean really clean it's administrative house.  There is no need for so many conflicting regulations, procedures, policies to continue to exist but yet they do.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Regulations are supposed to be that way as well.

The problem is not the regulations.

The problem is that we have thousands of prior-service members interpreting regulations, pamphlets, etc. one way, and thousands of non-prior service members interpreting regulations, pamphlets, etc. another way.

Just one example is the issue of "brown undershirt." When I saw it first, it was apparent to me that "it could be any shade of brown." To prior-service it is only one: "Army brown." Now I read it as only "Army brown."

And then there are not many opportunities for non-prior service to talk/learn from prior-service these little nuances...

I am not getting into the "Who is right/who is wrong" issue! 

Flyer

[Shuman 14]

Just like the Air Medal was issued to someone >not< in the Air Force.

Agreed, however the parent service of an auxiliary awarding and allowing the wear of a decoration
is not the same as expecting one auxiliary to allow the wear of decorations from another auxiliary.

I would expect the same response from the CGAux to the CAP Member wanting to wear the air medal on the CGAux uniform.

Then you would be wrong. A properly awarded Air Medal, regardless of status awarded in (i.e. military, auxiliary, or civilian), is authorized on both the USCG and the USCGAux uniform.

[Shuman 14]

Meh - this is one of the few places where "total force" really doesn't count in my mind.

Military decorations are irrelevant to CAP membership and AFAIC should just be eliminated
in lieu of wearing only CAP decs.

Since that's never going to happen, at least not get bunched when "this or that" can't be worn.
At least you still have a place to wear them.  It's not the ARC or CERT gives you that opportunity,
nor the BSA, etc.

It has nothing to do with respect, it's just a lot of noise about jelly beans the average
member doesn't even understand, mixed in with a a few, but too many members
who can't even be bothered to wear their CAP decs, but are all too happy to wear
only their military ones.

Not a popular stance, I know.

Actually reads like ribbon envy to me.

I could be wrong, but...

[Shuman 14]

So the urban myth about the Air Force awarding CAP members the Small Arms Expert Markmanship ribbon is just that, an urban myth.

I have personally met a CAP member who told me he qualified on a Kentucky ANG base and the base commander signed off for his ribbon.

Too bad the base commander didn't have that authority.

But what do I know?  I was just the Weapons Qualification NCO for my unit.
I was the guy who scheduled people to go shoot, updated their qualification and issued them their gun card after the Commander signed the card.
I also sent the roster of people who shot expert to the Commander so that they could be awarded their ribbon after the Commander signed off on it.

So perhaps another Weapons Qualification NCO forwarded that CAP members Expert qualification roster to the base commander for signature. Not completely out of the line of possibility.

[PHall]

So the urban myth about the Air Force awarding CAP members the Small Arms Expert Markmanship ribbon is just that, an urban myth.

I have personally met a CAP member who told me he qualified on a Kentucky ANG base and the base commander signed off for his ribbon.

Too bad the base commander didn't have that authority.

But what do I know?  I was just the Weapons Qualification NCO for my unit.
I was the guy who scheduled people to go shoot, updated their qualification and issued them their gun card after the Commander signed the card.
I also sent the roster of people who shot expert to the Commander so that they could be awarded their ribbon after the Commander signed off on it.

So perhaps another Weapons Qualification NCO forwarded that CAP members Expert qualification roster to the base commander for signature. Not completely out of the line of possibility.

And the Base Commander still does not have the authority to award anything to somebody who is not a member of their command.

[Shuman 14]

Maybe I should not be saying anything since I have decided to terminate my CAP affiliation when the current membership expires, but this discussion briefly touches part of the reason I am leaving.
It's easy to see where the confusion comes from, there is not a single definitive point of reference.  It seems to be look at this reg, but this other reg contradicts, wait, look at the Air Force  reg, oops, ask NHQ.  This seems to be a very dysfunctional way to run an organization.
  A chart could be prepared to show exactly what is approved for wear on the CAP uniform.  No more checking Army, AF, Navy, etc charts.  A  If it's not here it's not authorized Chart would answer a lot if not almost all these questions. 
Also, CAP needs to clean really clean it's administrative house.  There is no need for so many conflicting regulations, procedures, policies to continue to exist but yet they do.

The chart would be a good idea... as long as it gets updated regularly. In the last 10 years there have been a LOT of new medals have been created in the five Armed Forces.

Also, I would submit to you that with the new USAF uniform regulation/instruction that there is NOT a single medal or ribbon, awarded by any of the other four Armed Forces, that isn't authorized for wear on the USAF uniform.

I would also submit that almost every badge issued by the four other Armed Forces is now authorized on the USAF uniform according to that same regulation/instruction.

So, the question is, will CAP, who likes to mirror it's parent Service, follow suit?

[Shuman 14]

So the urban myth about the Air Force awarding CAP members the Small Arms Expert Markmanship ribbon is just that, an urban myth.

I have personally met a CAP member who told me he qualified on a Kentucky ANG base and the base commander signed off for his ribbon.

Too bad the base commander didn't have that authority.

But what do I know?  I was just the Weapons Qualification NCO for my unit.
I was the guy who scheduled people to go shoot, updated their qualification and issued them their gun card after the Commander signed the card.
I also sent the roster of people who shot expert to the Commander so that they could be awarded their ribbon after the Commander signed off on it.

So perhaps another Weapons Qualification NCO forwarded that CAP members Expert qualification roster to the base commander for signature. Not completely out of the line of possibility.

And the Base Commander still does not have the authority to award anything to somebody who is not a member of their command.

So your contention is that because the CAP member, and, for arguments sake, his CAP unit are not part of the formal chain of command, the award could not be made?

Good point. Not knowing USAF regulations, I'll bow to your subject matter expert knowledge.

[Archer]

So the urban myth about the Air Force awarding CAP members the Small Arms Expert Markmanship ribbon is just that, an urban myth.

I have personally met a CAP member who told me he qualified on a Kentucky ANG base and the base commander signed off for his ribbon.

Too bad the base commander didn't have that authority.

But what do I know?  I was just the Weapons Qualification NCO for my unit.
I was the guy who scheduled people to go shoot, updated their qualification and issued them their gun card after the Commander signed the card.
I also sent the roster of people who shot expert to the Commander so that they could be awarded their ribbon after the Commander signed off on it.

So perhaps another Weapons Qualification NCO forwarded that CAP members Expert qualification roster to the base commander for signature. Not completely out of the line of possibility.

And the Base Commander still does not have the authority to award anything to somebody who is not a member of their command.

Sounds like creative problem solving to me. I'm glad that a general officer has the common sense to act in the absence of pertinent regulation to ensure that a member of the Air Force family is recognized for his work just like any airman would be.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

^^^Except that increasingly, what gentlemen like Ned and Eclipse tell us about the praise we receive at AFRCC and 1st Air Force notwithstanding, we are only "family" to the Air Force in the "red-haired stepchild" sense.

Some of it is our fault, for isolated incidents of bad behaviour.  Some of it is the Air Force's fault - ignorance of who we are, and unwillingness to educate their personnel on even the most basic level.