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SarDragon
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« Reply #80 on: October 17, 2013, 06:52:40 PM »

I never yell. I just transition to theater or instructor mode. Everyone hears, and it doesn't hurt my throat a bit.  8)
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Dave Bowles
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PHall
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« Reply #81 on: October 17, 2013, 08:51:12 PM »

I never yell. I just transition to theater or instructor mode. Everyone hears, and it doesn't hurt my throat a bit.  8)

I can do that too. It's called "Mr Bullhorn!" >:D
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Nearly Dark Side
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Unit: NER-PA-012

« Reply #82 on: October 18, 2013, 09:44:13 AM »

Thanks for making the point of why untrained people should simply not be allowed to use it.
Yelling in and of itself is not abusive. As we have stated in other posts, there are times when it is needed. These include trying to be heard above the din, stopping someone from doing something that is dangerous to themselves or others, or yelling encouragement to comrades during competitions, races, and other activities. Learning when it is appropriate is a process not an event.

The PROBLEM is that it takes training, experience, and good judgement to know when it is appropriate and when it is not. Military trainers(DS, DI, MTI, etc.) receive 8-12 weeks of full time training AFTER they have served several years on FULL TIME ACTIVE DUTY, been through one or more NCO training courses, and have years of experience as NCOs to know when it might be appropriate and MORE IMPORTANTLY when it is not. No matter how dedicated, talented, and confident of their own judgement they are, the overwhelming majority of our cadets have not reached that level of ability. This does not even account for the differences in maturity between the "yellers" and the "yellees" in these very different situations. You have 25-35(ballpark) year old highly trained professional soldiers dealing with 17-21 year old(usually) recruits versus 17-21 year old cadets dealing with 12-15 year old cadets.

After 36 years, 21 encampments, and service as both a c/LtCol and a SM LtCol, I have seen few if any situations where yelling made a real lasting positive change in behavior. In most cases, IT WAS NOT A POSITIVE OR NEEDED RESPONSE. Most often what it results in is the individual doing just enough to NOT get yelled at and the group mentality of "unity of hate"(see the first installment of Band of Brothers to see an example) against the yeller. That is the only "teamwork" that yelling builds.

Again, this ^.

We don't have the contact time during an encampment to be playing "break them down / build them up games".  Also, a CAP encampment, is not, "basic cadet training".
That's not ints intention, it isn't scaled for that, and it's certainly not remotely that in practice.  Not when you have 16 year old Chiefs in the ranks.
[/quote]
There is time for a break down and build up, to a certain degree. And in my opinion the frontline supervisor should do whatever he/she thinks is necessary for the fight to come together as a team, within reason. And Eclipse thank you for reminding me, I need to change my name on here.
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arajca
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« Reply #83 on: October 18, 2013, 09:58:20 AM »

There is time for a break down and build up, to a certain degree. And in my opinion the frontline supervisor should do whatever he/she thinks is necessary for the fight to come together as a team, within reason. And Eclipse thank you for reminding me, I need to change my name on here.
It takes a few weeks for trained professionals to break down trainees in boot camp and the rest of the time to rebuild them. Why do you feel untrained juveniles can do it in less than a week?

There is a significant difference between "break them down" and "crush their souls". The former is the goal in basic military training (for any service), while the later is the result of untrained folks attempting to do the same.

Drill Sergeants/Instructors/etc also do not play good cop/bad cop in the same person at the same time as has been stated here (and in other discussions).
« Last Edit: October 18, 2013, 10:02:21 AM by arajca » Logged
Pulsar
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« Reply #84 on: October 18, 2013, 12:49:32 PM »

There is time for a break down and build up, to a certain degree. And in my opinion the frontline supervisor should do whatever he/she thinks is necessary for the fight to come together as a team, within reason. And Eclipse thank you for reminding me, I need to change my name on here.
It takes a few weeks for trained professionals to break down trainees in boot camp and the rest of the time to rebuild them. Why do you feel untrained juveniles can do it in less than a week?

There is a significant difference between "break them down" and "crush their souls". The former is the goal in basic military training (for any service), while the later is the result of untrained folks attempting to do the same.

Drill Sergeants/Instructors/etc also do not play good cop/bad cop in the same person at the same time as has been stated here (and in other discussions).

it was done; -even if it wasn't as low as possible or as high as possible. You want to see teams?...Go watch the graduate squadrons from the cadet training schools. There are no cliques. By the "break down", we really came together as a squadron (or flight). We became motivated as a team. It was no longer me, it was us - it was squadron -0!!
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A fiery strength inspires their lives, An essence that from heaven
derives,..." - Vergil, The Aeneid

(C) Copyright 2013: Readers who choose to hardcopy my comments are entitled to specific rights, namely: you may print them off and read them repeatedly until you have memorized them and then rattle them off as if you had thought them up yourself; However if asked, you must say they were signaled to you from a neutron star.
Nearly Dark Side
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Posts: 59
Unit: NER-PA-012

« Reply #85 on: October 18, 2013, 01:44:06 PM »

There is time for a break down and build up, to a certain degree. And in my opinion the frontline supervisor should do whatever he/she thinks is necessary for the fight to come together as a team, within reason. And Eclipse thank you for reminding me, I need to change my name on here.
It takes a few weeks for trained professionals to break down trainees in boot camp and the rest of the time to rebuild them. Why do you feel untrained juveniles can do it in less than a week?

There is a significant difference between "break them down" and "crush their souls". The former is the goal in basic military training (for any service), while the later is the result of untrained folks attempting to do the same.

Drill Sergeants/Instructors/etc also do not play good cop/bad cop in the same person at the same time as has been stated here (and in other discussions).

it was done; -even if it wasn't as low as possible or as high as possible. You want to see teams?...Go watch the graduate squadrons from the cadet training schools. There are no cliques. By the "break down", we really came together as a squadron (or flight). We became motivated as a team. It was no longer me, it was us - it was squadron -0!!

Thank you Pulsar. My point that the groups and social structure that exists in just about any group of adolescents is nonexistent in a graduating squadron. What happened at my squadron is that the staff started the breakdown of the flight as a whole, and then the students built each other up. I am not familiar enough with the theory behind it to explain exactly why this worked, all I know is that my squadrons at encampment  and LDC were teams, through and through. Each graduate was a superb cadet when we graduated we were all ready to return to our squadrons and improve them with the experience we had.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #86 on: October 18, 2013, 02:02:22 PM »

I am not familiar enough with the theory behind it to explain exactly why this worked,

Then you shouldn't be doing or advocating it.
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Pulsar
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« Reply #87 on: October 18, 2013, 02:17:59 PM »

I am not familiar enough with the theory behind it to explain exactly why this worked,

Then you shouldn't be doing or advocating it.

 I think C/2d Lt Collins knows why it works better than he imagines.  Being in that atmosphere, forces cadets to want to please and succeed. They have to bond together quickly and have to look to each other for help. In order to get through the first couple days, cadets are forced mentally to be and become friends. They are all brought down to the same level and then come up as a team and squadron. In my squadron, there were no two people that were 'best friends'. Every bodies' best friend was everyone
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A fiery strength inspires their lives, An essence that from heaven
derives,..." - Vergil, The Aeneid

(C) Copyright 2013: Readers who choose to hardcopy my comments are entitled to specific rights, namely: you may print them off and read them repeatedly until you have memorized them and then rattle them off as if you had thought them up yourself; However if asked, you must say they were signaled to you from a neutron star.
SamFranklin
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Posts: 190

« Reply #88 on: October 18, 2013, 03:18:39 PM »

Interesting discussion. If this is too far off topic, I apologize, but when people talk about encampment not being "hard" enough, not enough like "Full Metal Jacket," I thought I'd contribute a historical perspective. Also I have the flu and so have time on my hands.


Some ruminations about the Full Metal Jacket mindset, based on a historical perspective of the military's gradual professionalization: 

The word "cadet" comes from the French, "capdet," which points back further still to Latin's diminutive for head (caput). "Cadet" meant a "little head," which was figurative for "little brother."  Why does a military term have such a history? In pre-modern times, the second-born sons of the aristocracy would serve as military officers (or clergy), having no right to the family's wealth, due to primogeniture. Military service was a dumping ground for little brothers. If you saw a bunch of young officers, you were seeing a bunch of little brothers, hence "cadets."

Come forward to our own national history. Before WWII, the armed forces were very small, poorly funded, poorly trained, poorly paid, and generally not the professional warrior class they are today. Very few people enlisted in the armed forces out of patriotism. None enlisted for the GI BIll -- it did not exist. More often, you went into the service because you had no better options. The enlisted force represented the bottom tenth of the social class. Today, a criminal record and lack of basic education disqualifies you from service, but in the pre-WWII era, military service was one of the few employment opportunities available to society's undesirables. Every green lieutenant outranks every salty NCO because the lieutenant is of fine breeding while the enlisted are the great unwashed. Ultra-strict discipline was necessary, especially after WWI, to condition enlisted men to comply with orders leading them into mechanized death above the trenches. (Ask an Aussie or Kiwi about Gallipoli.)

What's that got to do with this thread?

I wonder if the "Full Metal Jacket" version of basic military leadership originates in the pre-WWII and old classist European cultures.

FMJ is marked by a demeaning tone ("maggots"), a prison-like and dehumanized experience for trainees who were afforded zero freedom during training ("you're not even human F beings"), and instructional techniques that presumed trainees were uneducated dolts. ("You will learn by the numbers!")

Imagine you're a poorly educated, poorly paid NCO working in the shadow of West Point grads (especially at a time when very few citizens were college grads). NCO life in the 30s and 40s must've been marked by pain, resentment, non-supportive leaders.... a living hell of unnecessary stress. How would you conduct yourself as a role model and instructor? Makes sense to me that you'd lash out at your maggots. Swear at them. Hit them. ("Left side, sir".... "Now choke yourself!")  Talk down to them instead of teaching them. ("That is not your daddy's shotgun!")

If this genealogy of the FMJ mindset is correct, then the misguided FMJ fantasies of people who don't have experience with modern military training methods are revealed to be 75 years out of date. The FMJ mindset held on during WWII out of existential urgency, persisted throughout Korea and Vietnam because of organizational inertia and the huge mass of men with WWII-era experience, and only with the advent of the post Vietnam all-volunteer force was the military forced to turn to the fundamentals of modern psychology, pedagogy, etc., for its training techniques. I don't know of any notable military training leader who wants to turn back the clock to 1927.

The FMJ mindset's decline is seen as a great weakening of the military ethos, in some peoples' eyes. ("WIWAC encampment was tougher!" Western civilization is crumbling because we're coddling cadets!") But with an historical understanding it looks more like FMJ was never a deliberate, purposeful regimen but an embarrassing, non-designed legacy from the pre-professional military.
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Nearly Dark Side
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« Reply #89 on: October 18, 2013, 03:22:34 PM »

I am not familiar enough with the theory behind it to explain exactly why this worked,

Then you shouldn't be doing or advocating it.

I am in a better position to advocate it than many, with all due respect. I have experienced it the last two summers, first hand. People that broke down on the first day, became stronger, one cadet in particular made a point of thanking several of us, because we helped him through it and he contacted me recently saying that LDC was one of the best decisions he ever made.
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Garibaldi
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Sandy Springs Cadet Squadron
« Reply #90 on: October 18, 2013, 03:35:44 PM »

Interesting...I think the mindset depicted in "The Lords of Discipline" illustrates exactly what we should NOT aspire to. In a few words, the protagonist says The Institute spends the first year breaking you down, then the next three building you into an Institute man, someone who is wholeheartedly a captive of the system. Plebe year, during the time period of 1964, when Viet Nam was just getting up a good head of steam, was a brutal process in the book. Plebes were slapped, beaten, verbally assaulted, and, if they survived all that and were still deemed unfit to wear The Ring, were subject to far worse treatment under The Taming, when the entire upper class would come at you with the sole intention of running you out. If, somehow, you survived THAT, you were taken off campus to a house and subjected to torture, a place where the rules did not apply nor exist.

Flash forward a few years. Now, if an upperclassman looks at you wrong, he can get sued. Sure, there are still cases where people, officers as well as senior NCOs, are accused of assault or abusing their positions, and they get crucified by the media.

What does this have to do with CAP Encampment, you ask? Simple. By reading too much into what you THINK encampment is or should be and not what it REALLY is, you have effectively undermined the entire process. Extreme military discipline, to include yelling and getting in cadets' faces, has no place here and now. Maybe, MAYBE it did 40 or 50 years ago, but I doubt it. We don't aspire to create cadets who blindly follow orders, or send kids home at the end of the week with the mindset of "I'm going to pay this forward next year." It's a learning environment, no more, no less. Just because we wear uniforms with grade insignia doesn't give anyone, cadet or senior, the right to try to enforce a particular mindset onto another. The cadet program rarely depends on that degree of military discipline.

People, including me, have watched movies and read books about Basic or plebe year and have said to themselves, "gee, wouldn't it be great if..." Granted, I think the wussification of America has bled into the military, but that's neither here nor there, and I seriously have my doubts about the leadership ability of a 15 year old cadet who struts around trying to assert his "authority" at his home unit because he's watched FMJ or Stripes too many times.

And now, to get this discussion back on topic, my dad liked to relate a story about his first encampment, back in the 1950s. Apparently, three cadets thought it would be fun to sign in as Disney characters. It wasn't real hard to figure out who they were once the paper settled, and the three spent the entire week cleaning latrines and doing KP during their free time. While wearing Mickey Mouse ears.
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UH60guy
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« Reply #91 on: October 18, 2013, 03:39:50 PM »

I am not familiar enough with the theory behind it to explain exactly why this worked,

Then you shouldn't be doing or advocating it.

I am in a better position to advocate it than many, with all due respect. I have experienced it the last two summers, first hand. People that broke down on the first day, became stronger, one cadet in particular made a point of thanking several of us, because we helped him through it and he contacted me recently saying that LDC was one of the best decisions he ever made.

Not saying this is necessarily the case, but take a look at these:
From theCAP Unit Commander's course instructor guide:
"Hazing, sometimes thought of as harmless team-building, is actually very harmful both to the cadets involved and to the overall cohesion of the unit."

And from CAPR 52-10
"Hazing is defined as any conduct whereby someone causes another to suffer or to be exposed to any activity that is cruel, abusive, humiliating, oppressive, demeaning or harmful. Actual or implied consent to acts of hazing does not eliminate the culpability of the perpetrator."

You're walking a fine line here, and jut remember that "because it works" or "the cadets enjoyed the effects" aren't valid defenses to something that could be determined to be hazing.
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Maj Ken Ward
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« Reply #92 on: October 18, 2013, 03:44:07 PM »

You're walking a fine line here, and jut remember that "because it works" or "the cadets enjoyed the effects" aren't valid defenses to something that could be determined to be hazing.

+1 - CAP does not train anyone in the techniques of "breaking down and building up", especially cadets.

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Elioron
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« Reply #93 on: October 18, 2013, 03:47:57 PM »

I am not familiar enough with the theory behind it to explain exactly why this worked,

Then you shouldn't be doing or advocating it.

That's like saying that nobody should drive unless they explain the engineering involved.  It is quite possible to observe that something works without understanding why.

You're walking a fine line here...

That's why oversight is important.  Intensity is not abuse or hazing.  If we get to the point that we are no longer willing to challenge cadets out of fear of hazing accusations we lose a cornerstone of youth development.
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Scott W. Dean, Capt, CAP
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Pulsar
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« Reply #94 on: October 18, 2013, 03:52:38 PM »

I am not familiar enough with the theory behind it to explain exactly why this worked,

Then you shouldn't be doing or advocating it.

That's like saying that nobody should drive unless they explain the engineering involved.  It is quite possible to observe that something works without understanding why.

You're walking a fine line here...

That's why oversight is important.  Intensity is not abuse or hazing.  If we get to the point that we are no longer willing to challenge cadets out of fear of hazing accusations we lose a cornerstone of youth development.

hmmm, well said.
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A fiery strength inspires their lives, An essence that from heaven
derives,..." - Vergil, The Aeneid

(C) Copyright 2013: Readers who choose to hardcopy my comments are entitled to specific rights, namely: you may print them off and read them repeatedly until you have memorized them and then rattle them off as if you had thought them up yourself; However if asked, you must say they were signaled to you from a neutron star.
UH60guy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 236
Unit: VA

« Reply #95 on: October 18, 2013, 04:05:28 PM »

I am not familiar enough with the theory behind it to explain exactly why this worked,

Then you shouldn't be doing or advocating it.

That's like saying that nobody should drive unless they explain the engineering involved.  It is quite possible to observe that something works without understanding why.

You're walking a fine line here...

That's why oversight is important.  Intensity is not abuse or hazing.  If we get to the point that we are no longer willing to challenge cadets out of fear of hazing accusations we lose a cornerstone of youth development.

I agree- that oversight needs to make sure any "intensity" doesn't cross into "cruel, abusive, humiliating, oppressive, demeaning or harmful." That's why it's a fine line and sometimes tough to define. However, out of pure CYA, I tend to default to "if the question is asked, it's probably not a good idea." It all depends on the situation.

The question I posit is this: can a cadet, likely around 16 years old in an encampment flight leadership position, navigate that fine line successfully? What training do they have in how to manage the "intensity" so they don't go over the edge? What do we do as senior members to properly prepare cadets to manage such an event? If the training isn't part of it, where are they drawing their experience from, other than "my flight sergeant yelled at me when I was a basic?" I mean, none of the leadership books I've seen reference yelling and intensity as a leadership method.

Forgive me if the internet can't convey my intent in the questions- I'm not trying to be snarky, I'm genuinely intrigued by the discussion.
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Maj Ken Ward
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« Reply #96 on: October 18, 2013, 04:14:35 PM »

I am not familiar enough with the theory behind it to explain exactly why this worked,

Then you shouldn't be doing or advocating it.

That's like saying that nobody should drive unless they explain the engineering involved.  It is quite possible to observe that something works without understanding why.

You're not allowed to drive until you have been properly trained, have time behind the wheel, and then demonstrated your ability in this regard.


You're walking a fine line here...

That's why oversight is important.  Intensity is not abuse or hazing.  If we get to the point that we are no longer willing to challenge cadets out of fear of hazing accusations we lose a cornerstone of youth development.

In most cases, the oversight is provided by other cadets and/or adults who have no more experience or proven ability then the cadets they are overseeing, certainly
no one in a CAP context has been trained on how to "break down and build up" other members.

This is not about "intensity".
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Elioron
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« Reply #97 on: October 18, 2013, 04:32:46 PM »

The question I posit is this: can a cadet, likely around 16 years old in an encampment flight leadership position, navigate that fine line successfully? What training do they have in how to manage the "intensity" so they don't go over the edge? What do we do as senior members to properly prepare cadets to manage such an event? If the training isn't part of it, where are they drawing their experience from, other than "my flight sergeant yelled at me when I was a basic?" I mean, none of the leadership books I've seen reference yelling and intensity as a leadership method.

I know at our encampment, staff shows up four days before for training.  A lot of it deals specifically with intensity - how to instill it, how to keep from going over the line, how to regulate it according to the syllabus.  Even so, we don't leave it entirely up to the cadet staff.  There is a Senior Member with each flight 24/7.  The primary purpose of the TAC Officer is to monitor the cadets and the staff to make sure things are on track and to help those cadets who have issues.  This is important because, just as with everything else we do, cadets will be at a wide range of maturity and experience.  As has been mentioned before, some can't even handle being away from home, much less being held to a schedule.  One almost went home because they couldn't handle communal showers, others are fine with it.  There are a lot of Senior Staff to help out, and pretty much every flight has some sort of breakdown every night.

Is it easy?  No.  It requires vigilance on the part of the senior Cadet Staff and the Senior Staff, but that is the least we can do to help all of the participants to grow.  If it was easy, nobody would come away with anything useful.  I think we owe to them and our organization to build the best people we can.
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Scott W. Dean, Capt, CAP
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Nearly Dark Side
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« Reply #98 on: October 18, 2013, 04:51:04 PM »

Let me point out that I do not think yelling should be exercised freely, if it is then it loses its effect. It must be only used when something of significance needs to be stated. And I do have a fairly good idea of why it works, I ask again though, why is it that a recent student of the encampment that is under fire, his/her opinion is given a backseat to the discussion, despite the recent and first hand knowledge that cadet has?
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #99 on: October 18, 2013, 05:04:02 PM »

I am not familiar enough with the theory behind it to explain exactly why this worked...
And I do have a fairly good idea of why it works
So...which is it?

Let me point out that I do not think yelling should be exercised freely, if it is then it loses its effect. It must be only used when something of significance needs to be stated.

Like yelling at cadets to get off the bus and salute all officers, conveniently placed around the path, and to stay of the grass? Or, question them, upon arrival on subjects they may or may not know, and yell at them for being wrong?

I ask again though, why is it that a recent student of the encampment that is under fire, his/her opinion is given a backseat to the discussion, despite the recent and first hand knowledge that cadet has?

Because of institutional knowledge of the detriments? Because for every cadet who gets a little Stockholmy about it, another two will NOT be renewing their membership? You tell me. Why do we have such high attrition rates?

"[BANG!!--BANG-BANG!!!] -the van door is torn open.- a female officer stands yelling: "WHAT ARE YOU DOING?!!-SITTING WASTING TIME?!!-OUT!!OUT!! GET OUT OF THIS VAN!!!!...ARE YOU GONNA THANK THE DRIVER!?!-HUGH-HUGH?!! ARE YOU THAT DISRESCECTFUL?!!!"  Everything happened so fast; this and that- on and on- everything was chaos for us cadets.  A few seconds later, I found myself standing near a wall at attention. All one could hear was staff yelling and screaming at cadets. I was alone...utterly ALONE ( I was the first female cadet there; I was in Sqd. 30 which is an all- female sqd.)
For what seemed like hours I was tested on the cadet oath, honor code, core values, and countless other things. Every little mistake I made was yelled in my face.
We are told to report to the officer upstairs. The first cadet tries. She is screamed at for not greeting nearby officers hiding behind the door.
On and on- every cadet failed at something. Finally it gets to me; I greet correctly, do everything satisfactory, go upstairs, and report correctly. -I even write my information. But I hear: "IS THIS WHERE I PUT MY PEN?!!!" I try to answer but instead he says: "WRONG!!! END OF THE LINE!" So much for signing in.
As I walk by, other shaky and nervous cadets greet me (thinking me a staff member). I say, "Hey guys, chill out. I'm a student here too. Be careful who you greet! You will get in trouble." (I was a C/SMSgt)  I continue to my rack. The longest day of my life continues......
Ok, that was my experience. Many girls and... boys cried that first day.

THESE were the worst bits of the OP. THESE are why so many SMs, especially those with DECADES of Encampment experience are cringing. Absolutely NONE of that is necessary, and MOST of it is in the current RST materials to be AVOIDED.

But do go on telling us how you succeed in breaking down AND rebuilding these cadets in a week, and it's all for the better.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2013, 05:30:00 PM by usafaux2004 » Logged
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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Tall Tales  |  Topic: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
 


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