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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Tall Tales  |  Topic: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
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Eclipse
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« Reply #60 on: October 15, 2013, 06:28:55 PM »

...there's no specific requirement CAP-USAF or the USAF be involved at >all<.

Unless we got the directive from CAP-USAF we can't require their involvement in anything specific.  That's not to say we shouldn't try, but not require.

Agreed - but when we removed the SD (LRADO) from ultimately certifying the activity, we also removed the last incentive for them to be directly involved.
Some were directly and intimately involved in vetting curriculum before signing an encampment was compliant, some took the encampment commanders word, but ultimately CAP-USAF was a safety valve.

I fully understand that manpower limitations basically preclude that level of involvement now, but as I said before, CAP is not good at self-audit.

As far as inspections, what if there was a system in place similar to SAREVAL for ES?  Every couple of years, a few CP folks from other wings observe an encampment within their Region.  Inspectors would be trained by NHQ via a distance learning system and through National/Regional conferences.  Having a team rather than an individual would help to give balance to the feedback and their findings could be shared with NHQ and other Region/Wing CP personnel.  Again, it would probably be great for CAP-USAF to get involved as well, but that's more up to them.

Sounds like the start of an idea to me.  The key being KNOWLEDGEABLE and DIRECTLY EXPERIENCED, something many of our esteemed inspectors.  If we set up a bunch of people who are clueless not experienced, that will make it worse.
today are not.
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Ned
Resident Philosopher

Posts: 2,202

« Reply #61 on: October 15, 2013, 06:30:25 PM »

My point is, we don't go from AL to CO. 

Odd.  I thought your point was:

Quote
we're a volunteer organization with motivated members who receive tax breaks for expenses, and...we have airplanes.

I thought since you underlined the airplane part that had something to do with your point.  If you don't want to talk about logistics, that's fine with me.


Quote
You have folks in those wings and Regions trained properly and they can drive there - review the curriculum, observe operations, report back to whatever echelon cares.

Undoubtedly true.  Why do you think that is not happening now?

Quote
Honestly, it really seems like the assumption  at NHQ is that if it's a national initiative, NHQ people have to physically be there.

That's rather unfair, don't you think?  Encampment has been a "national initiative" (or at least a national requirement) for over half a century.  There has never been a requirment or even an expectation that NHQ personnel would be present at a wing encampment.

To the contrary, the "assumption at NHQ" is that dedicated volunteer CP officers will continue to implement a successful cadet program at the local, wing, and region level.


Quote
As to AARs, I seriously doubt the majority of wings are doing anything formal beyond the bare minimum requirements.  Certainly NHQ never asked for anything of me, and we're in essentially the first year in which the SD (now LRADO) is not certifying the activity.

Wait, are you saying you never did an AAR for the large encampments you commanded?  Really?

Quote
In fact, despite the rhetoric in the new draft, there's no specific requirement CAP-USAF or the USAF be involved at >all<. 

True enough, for the very practical reason that there is essentially no capability for CAP-USAF or the AF to be involved at the wing level.  (They do have significant input on the curriculum and doctrine for encampment at the NHQ level.)

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Eclipse
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« Reply #62 on: October 15, 2013, 07:48:28 PM »

Wait, are you saying you never did an AAR for the large encampments you commanded?  Really?

Yes, really.  That's exactly what I am saying - no one asked.

The reporting I always provided far exceeded the expectations, and we spent an excruciating amount of time making sure that we were fully
compliant, exceeded expectations, and had a good event. 

If you would be so kind as to point me to the national or even regional databases of best practice and summary reports from encampments, and/or the reporting requirements beyond the CAPF20, I'll get our stuff added in.

Encampments are >not< a national initiative or even on NHQ's radar - some wings don't even have them.  I'd say in abot 1/2 the years we
couldn't even get the dates posted on the NHQ encampment web site, let alone anything beyond that.

Is our cadet program successful?  On the mean, yes, however it is very inconsistently managed and executed. and there are more then a few places
that need adjustment.  Here again, when you consider commanders are selected as much because of proximity as to ability, that's to be expected.

I am happy to help fix that.
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ol'fido
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« Reply #63 on: October 15, 2013, 09:53:29 PM »

I spent a few hours this weekend visiting the online presence of several wing encampments. I pretty much covered everything in PCR, SWR, and RMR. My idea was to glean ideas, best practices, and get training materials for our encampment next year. I hope to get to the rest of the wings in the near future. In some wings I found a lot of information on their program, chain of command, training materials, etc. In others, I found a date and and address to send your app to and not much else. I think we have an excellent program here in IL for our summer encampment, but there is always room for improvement.

Our program is a continuation and evolution of a process we started in 2003 to change the culture of our encampment from the "in your face" type to one that was a little more forward thinking. In years past, our SD has gotten a large packet of materials from us at the end of each encampment. This included our Master Incident Action Plan plus our daily IAPs and any info we could put together that showed what we were doing. I would not hesitate to have anyone come in and observe us at any time. I would also not hesitate to share our program with anyone who asks.



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Lt. Col. Randy L. Mitchell
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #64 on: October 16, 2013, 12:42:59 AM »

US Marine Corps Drill Instructor vs US Army Drill Sergeant
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Nearly Dark Side
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« Reply #65 on: October 16, 2013, 01:48:46 PM »

I think that for the basic schools the intensity needs to be scaled back, but only slightly. At my squadron you are warned repeatedly that it is going to be difficult, but if you continue on then it is on you. It teaches you how to toughen up, and get through it. That said I don't think new twelve year olds should be able to go. Maybe set the bar at 14. At leadership schools however the intensity is definitely needed. People that go to leadership schools have been in CAP for a few years and they are probably planning on joining the military. Also if it is the leadership school students that will be leading and teaching next years class, you want the most professional and knowledgeable staff possible. That being said being the first there is always the worst because you are usually singled out. When I went to LDC, a friend and I rode in the truck that carried the luggage and we were definitely singled out because of how we arrived. The staff does need to scale back the singling out people, especially when people are about to break. At In processing we had a cadet try to leave but the staff let me talk him into staying. So the effect of the yelling is to build teamwork and it still works.
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #66 on: October 16, 2013, 02:26:39 PM »

So the effect of the yelling is to build teamwork and it still works.

Thanks for making the point of why untrained people should simply not be allowed to use it.
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ol'fido
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« Reply #67 on: October 16, 2013, 06:57:33 PM »

So the effect of the yelling is to build teamwork and it still works.

Thanks for making the point of why untrained people should simply not be allowed to use it.
Yelling in and of itself is not abusive. As we have stated in other posts, there are times when it is needed. These include trying to be heard above the din, stopping someone from doing something that is dangerous to themselves or others, or yelling encouragement to comrades during competitions, races, and other activities. Learning when it is appropriate is a process not an event.

The PROBLEM is that it takes training, experience, and good judgement to know when it is appropriate and when it is not. Military trainers(DS, DI, MTI, etc.) receive 8-12 weeks of full time training AFTER they have served several years on FULL TIME ACTIVE DUTY, been through one or more NCO training courses, and have years of experience as NCOs to know when it might be appropriate and MORE IMPORTANTLY when it is not. No matter how dedicated, talented, and confident of their own judgement they are, the overwhelming majority of our cadets have not reached that level of ability. This does not even account for the differences in maturity between the "yellers" and the "yellees" in these very different situations. You have 25-35(ballpark) year old highly trained professional soldiers dealing with 17-21 year old(usually) recruits versus 17-21 year old cadets dealing with 12-15 year old cadets.

After 36 years, 21 encampments, and service as both a c/LtCol and a SM LtCol, I have seen few if any situations where yelling made a real lasting positive change in behavior. In most cases, IT WAS NOT A POSITIVE OR NEEDED RESPONSE. Most often what it results in is the individual doing just enough to NOT get yelled at and the group mentality of "unity of hate"(see the first installment of Band of Brothers to see an example) against the yeller. That is the only "teamwork" that yelling builds.
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Lt. Col. Randy L. Mitchell
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #68 on: October 16, 2013, 07:24:37 PM »

Which was my point. To say yelling is a teambuilding tool is so off the mark, that it alone is an argument to simply forbid those with that mindset from even doing it.
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Ned
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« Reply #69 on: October 16, 2013, 07:35:45 PM »

Which was my point. To say yelling is a teambuilding tool is so off the mark, that it alone is an argument to simply forbid those with that mindset from even doing it.

I hesitate to confuse the issue even more,  but I have strong memory of a high school coach or two addressing my team with a raised voice.  Many times.  Particularly if we were not doing well as a team.

Undeniably at least one effect of that was teambuilding.  Which I suspect was also one of their intentions at the time.

To take a position that raising your voice is never an effective teambuilding tool is just as an extreme position as saying that always raising your voice is an effective teambuilding tool.

As so frequently happens in these types of discussions, the truth is probably somewhere in between the two extremes.

Ned Lee
Former High School Athlete

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ol'fido
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« Reply #70 on: October 16, 2013, 07:37:22 PM »

My comments were directed more at the C/CMsgt than you I hope you understand.
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Lt. Col. Randy L. Mitchell
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ol'fido
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« Reply #71 on: October 16, 2013, 07:39:12 PM »

Which was my point. To say yelling is a teambuilding tool is so off the mark, that it alone is an argument to simply forbid those with that mindset from even doing it.

I hesitate to confuse the issue even more,  but I have strong memory of a high school coach or two addressing my team with a raised voice.  Many times.  Particularly if we were not doing well as a team.

Undeniably at least one effect of that was teambuilding.  Which I suspect was also one of their intentions at the time.

To take a position that raising your voice is never an effective teambuilding tool is just as an extreme position as saying that always raising your voice is an effective teambuilding tool.

As so frequently happens in these types of discussions, the truth is probably somewhere in between the two extremes.

Ned Lee
Former High School Athlete
Like I said Ned, your coach had a lot of experience and training before he did that, didn't he?
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Lt. Col. Randy L. Mitchell
Historian, Group 1, IL-006
Elioron
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« Reply #72 on: October 16, 2013, 07:44:55 PM »

Like I said Ned, your coach had a lot of experience and training before he did that, didn't he?

My coach didn't.  He had just played football for years and agreed to coach the High School (did a really good job, too).
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Scott W. Dean, Capt, CAP
CDS/DOS/ITO/Comm/LGT/Admin - CP
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Eclipse
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« Reply #73 on: October 16, 2013, 08:49:05 PM »

I think that for the basic schools the intensity needs to be scaled back, but only slightly

Basic schools?  What are those?
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Eclipse
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Posts: 29,270

« Reply #74 on: October 16, 2013, 08:51:47 PM »

Thanks for making the point of why untrained people should simply not be allowed to use it.
Yelling in and of itself is not abusive. As we have stated in other posts, there are times when it is needed. These include trying to be heard above the din, stopping someone from doing something that is dangerous to themselves or others, or yelling encouragement to comrades during competitions, races, and other activities. Learning when it is appropriate is a process not an event.

The PROBLEM is that it takes training, experience, and good judgement to know when it is appropriate and when it is not. Military trainers(DS, DI, MTI, etc.) receive 8-12 weeks of full time training AFTER they have served several years on FULL TIME ACTIVE DUTY, been through one or more NCO training courses, and have years of experience as NCOs to know when it might be appropriate and MORE IMPORTANTLY when it is not. No matter how dedicated, talented, and confident of their own judgement they are, the overwhelming majority of our cadets have not reached that level of ability. This does not even account for the differences in maturity between the "yellers" and the "yellees" in these very different situations. You have 25-35(ballpark) year old highly trained professional soldiers dealing with 17-21 year old(usually) recruits versus 17-21 year old cadets dealing with 12-15 year old cadets.

After 36 years, 21 encampments, and service as both a c/LtCol and a SM LtCol, I have seen few if any situations where yelling made a real lasting positive change in behavior. In most cases, IT WAS NOT A POSITIVE OR NEEDED RESPONSE. Most often what it results in is the individual doing just enough to NOT get yelled at and the group mentality of "unity of hate"(see the first installment of Band of Brothers to see an example) against the yeller. That is the only "teamwork" that yelling builds.
[/quote]

Again, this ^.

We don't have the contact time during an encampment to be playing "break them down / build them up games".  Also, a CAP encampment, is not, "basic cadet training".
That's not ints intention, it isn't scaled for that, and it's certainly not remotely that in practice.  Not when you have 16 year old Chiefs in the ranks.
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lordmonar
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« Reply #75 on: October 16, 2013, 09:40:09 PM »

Now don't get me wrong......I got no problem with a "Get your butts off my bus" a round of pick em up/put em down...and then a very intense game of spread your crap out for shake down!   That serves the function of getting the basics into the "encampment mind set" and establish who is in charge.

But then that's it.  No more.  By Dinner time it should be turned off and the only yelling should of the "it's noisy in hear" "get off my lawn" sort of yelling.

But from the encampment video.....the "stay off my grass, salute all officer....etc" and the first thing I see is three officers lined up along the side walk just to prove a point.   I'm calling BS.   Cadets running out of the van, carrying all their junk, looking for their bunks....and having some random officer just lazing around to collect salutes.   Not helpful.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
Eclipse
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Posts: 29,270

« Reply #76 on: October 16, 2013, 09:55:52 PM »

Now don't get me wrong......I got no problem with a "Get your butts off my bus" a round of pick em up/put em down...and then a very intense game of spread your crap out for shake down!   That serves the function of getting the basics into the "encampment mind set" and establish who is in charge.

Just as long as you give them your 100% "divided" attention...
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lordmonar
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Posts: 10,655

« Reply #77 on: October 17, 2013, 02:07:35 AM »

Now don't get me wrong......I got no problem with a "Get your butts off my bus" a round of pick em up/put em down...and then a very intense game of spread your crap out for shake down!   That serves the function of getting the basics into the "encampment mind set" and establish who is in charge.

Just as long as you give them your 100% "divided" attention...
Yeah....I saw that too.
I also saw the Guide on Ceremony.....interesting waste of contact hours.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
NIN
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« Reply #78 on: October 17, 2013, 06:22:28 AM »

I never yell.

I merely speak in a tone which ensures I will not be misunderstood, misheard or ignored.

:)
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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2018 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,655

« Reply #79 on: October 17, 2013, 02:13:20 PM »

I never yell.

I merely speak in a tone which ensures I will not be misunderstood, misheard or ignored.

:)
:)  Ah....you have mastered the ability to "yell" while whispering.  :)
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Tall Tales  |  Topic: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
 


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