Legal Officer application denied

[RwyX]

I'm brand new to CAP but also a practicing attorney with 20 yrs experience, pilot as well.  I finished my Level I and applied for Legal Officer at the Squadron Level.  My App was sent to Wing.  My CO just told me (apparently Wing's reply) that there is no need and I should pick another track.  Not happy with that answer.  Who do I speak to next?

[MSG Mac]

Wing Legal Officer and the Wing Personnel Officer. a denial should be returned with a written cause for denial. I think I know why, but talk to them.

[LGM30GMCC]

I suspect it is because at the squadron level there isn't that much need for a legal officer. As it is all legal officers represent CAP as a whole and I believe are supposed to work for the wing. I'd need to do some more research about that one. Squadron commander's cannot sign any contracts as it stands, and are to consult with Wing legal or national general counsel in a number of cases where legal officers come into play.

[Eclipse]

Welcome to CAPTalk and CAP.

The first issue was that a unit CC isn't even allowed to appoint a Legal Officer, that must be done by the Wing CC or higher.
See CAPR 111-1, which both you and your Commander should have reviewed before sending up the forms.  If was just updated
in Dec to align with the new governance structure.

Regardless, there is really no role for a Legal Officer at the squadron level - all contracts have to be approved by Wing or higher,
and other defined roles and duties are in representing and protecting the corporation, not the rank and file membership. So even if you
were appointed as one, your service and direction would come from 1-2 clicks higher then the unit, not something most unit CC's are going to
see as direct value.

Your best best is to spend some time using your aviation experience and skills as a professional to help the squadron where needed, and
once you have a better understanding of CAP, then consider moving to a higher echelon (if interested).

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Retracting comment due to general ignorance, with apologies. 

[vento]

Also, you may want to think from the other angle. Why do the same thing you do during your day job when you volunteer at CAP? Try something else, it will be more fun!  :angel:

A gentleman in my squadron started as Safety and ES, did a wonderful job, made lots of friends in the Wing and to his dismay he is now the Legal officer for the Wing. Don't get me wrong, I think he enjoys his current assignment, but it doesn't mean that you can't have fun doing the other stuff.

[JeffDG]

Also, you may want to think from the other angle. Why do the same thing you do during your day job when you volunteer at CAP? Try something else, it will be more fun!  :angel:

A gentleman in my squadron started as Safety and ES, did a wonderful job, made lots of friends in the Wing and to his dismay he is now the Legal officer for the Wing. Don't get me wrong, I think he enjoys his current assignment, but it doesn't mean that you can't have fun doing the other stuff.

You know, that's a really good point...

If you're volunteering your time, you may as well do something that expands your skillset...I'm an IT geek professionally, but my focus has been ES, and lately Comms...I've actually taken some of the NIMS and ICS stuff back into work and put together structures for response to critical incidents.

[ZigZag911]

Latest CAPR 20-1 ( 2 Jan 2013) authorizes appointment of legal officers at all levels, even cadet squadrons.

Perhaps the thinking is that a JA can help a unit CC realize when it is necessary to refer something to wing JA or higher.

Possibly there is also some thought that future wing/region JAs need experience at squadron level.

It would be sensible for you and your sqdn CC to inquire up the chain, perhaps seek a meeting with wing JA, to discuss the matter.

[Eclipse]

What, exactly, is a unit going to do that requires a lawyer?

[SarDragon]

What, exactly, is a unit going to do that requires a lawyer?

Be involved in outside activity planning that might have the possibility of generating legal issues?

[Eclipse]

Anything that "might involve legal issues" is going to be prohibited from the start, and HAA's are clearly defined
and would need wing's approval.

Seriously, there's nothing in the JA's lane that needs to be done at the Unit, or even Group level. 

[Ned]

Granted it was a fairly long time ago, but I was assigned as a group legal officer supporting about a dozen squadrons.  It was an IAOD assignment to my work in a cadet unit.

And I remember that there were at least a couple of phone calls a month from unit commanders with questions.  Plus the homework necessary to answer the questions intelligently.  Multiply that by the half-dozen or so groups in CAWG at the time and you can see why they couldn't all go to the CAWG JA.  I understand that we have essentially the same coverage today by having all legal types assigned to wing, but giving them specific groups to support.

Probably works either way. 

But in a wing with more than two dozen squadrons, it may well make sense to push supporting staff types like JA down to the group level when necessary for span of control-type reasons.  Local guys are more likely to be familiar with local issues when compared with some deputy JA located 400 miles away in Los Angeles.  But I'll support any commander's decisions about how the support staff should be distributed.

[Eclipse]

I don't actually disagree with that, but I think in practice it's going to depend on the wing.

Before the recent changes, I had a JA in my unit and then Group command, even to the point of
getting him properly assigned by the wing when the change occurred.

The reality, however, was that the staff at the wing level didn't really have that much to do, and
weren't interested in anyone else in the club.  My guy wound up working more at the Region and National
level then doing anything locally.

The one thing he did do was actually securing the rights to a Van Halen song for use in an encampment
video.  That was a pretty big win, but since encampments are a wing function, he was technically working
above the Group level for that as well.

[SarDragon]

I don't actually disagree with that, but I think in practice it's going to depend on the wing.

Before the recent changes, I had a JA in my unit and then Group command, even to the point of
getting him properly assigned by the wing when the change occurred.

The reality, however, was that the staff at the wing level didn't really have that much to do, and
weren't interested in anyone else in the club.  My guy wound up working more at the Region and National
level then doing anything locally.

The one thing he did do was actually securing the rights to a Van Halen song for use in an encampment
video.  That was a pretty big win, but since encampments are a wing function, he was technically working
above the Group level for that as well.

Thereby validating my comment. It is not out of the realm of possibility for a similar situation at a group or squadron function.

[Eclipse]

Thereby validating my comment. It is not out of the realm of possibility for a similar situation at a group or squadron function.

There are many things within the "realm of possibility", that doesn't justify the appointment.

he could have just as well done that without being an appointed JA, and considering the effort he put in attending national conferences
and other PD, that's hardly a good ROI.

[RwyX]

I appreciate all of the comments and I'm working with my PD officer to get more info and see what paperwork was generated, or maybe have a meeting as was suggested.  In the meantime, I'll work the flying side and learn more about the organization as a whole.

I've only been on here a week or so and I noticed the "Kill The Triangle-Thingy" logo.   Funny stuff as I do trademark work...  Is there some succession movement going on?

[Private Investigator]

I'm brand new to CAP but also a practicing attorney with 20 yrs experience, pilot as well.  I finished my Level I and applied for Legal Officer at the Squadron Level.  My App was sent to Wing.  My CO just told me (apparently Wing's reply) that there is no need and I should pick another track.  Not happy with that answer.  Who do I speak to next?

As a practicing attorney you are entitled to be promoted to Captain. But you will be IAOD (In Addition to Other Duties) to Wing Headquarters for that and you will have a Staff job with your Squadron such as Supply Officer, Aircraft Manager, etc.

In the past I have lawyers who did nothing on the legal side in CAP and just did typical Squadron Staff assignments so they started at 2nd Lt and worked their way up. Every Squadron, Group and Wing is different so your mileage may vary.

Have fun and welcome aboard   :clap:

[Eclipse]

As a practicing attorney you are entitled potentially eligible to be promoted to Captain.

Fixed that for you.

As yo say, a lawyer not serving as a JA, would probably not be promoted based only on his academics and professional qualifications,
any more then an Aeronautical Engineer who chose not to be involved in AE would.

[Cliff_Chambliss]

Slight Deviation:

Lets say a member is given an advanced grade based on his/her skill set (CFI, Medical, Accounting, Legal, etc).  performs in the related speciality for a period of time and then gives it up.  Lets also assume (for sake of discussion) the member has done very little if anything to advance beyond Level 1. 

Question:  Would the person have to give up their advanced rank and revert to their actual "earned" rank?

Disclaimer:  Not looking at anyone in particular or any specific category, just this thread raised the question in my mind.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I don't believe there is any sort of "probation" period on the grade *(unless there's an individual wing policy), but there probably should be.