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[lordmonar]

I DO violate the regulation when and where appropriate

Not that I disagree, but out of curiosity: could you give some examples where violating the regs would be appropriate?

This week end we had a SAREX out at the Valley of Fire.....I told my cadets to bring an appropriat jacket.....for get about the uniform.  I told them that they all had to have a watch cap......greeen, red, blue, black, it did not matter.

I have put cadets into uniforms that were NOT by the regs, fit, clean, and servicable.

I have deployed and been deployed on ground teams that did not have the minimum number of personel.

I have allowed cadets who have not completed their curry to start ES training.

[Hawk200]

I have to disagree.

Do you want each and every one of your orders questioned by every C/AB...."where's that in the regs?"

Obviously, there can be unreasonable questioning of regs. I'm teaching my cadets to think, not be robots. 

Second, if it's in the regs, you should be able to provide an answer in a fairly expedient manner.

Third, it keeps you honest. I don't know how many times someone has told me "it's in the regs," and it wasn't, they just wanted to do their own thing. That's not being mistaken, that's lying.

Third....regulation complaince is a enforced TOP DOWN!  I can only enforce the regulaitons at my level and below.  I can encourage my peers to be complaince....but I can't ENFORCE them at that level.  I....as I have said.....can and should report violations up my chain for them to enforce complaince.

That's what I'm advocating, enforcing them at the lowest level. The pubs are there so you you don't have to pester chain of command on compliance.

Second, violations should be corrected, on the spot. If the person refuses, that's when you go up the chain. Any member should have the intestinal fortitude to do so, not "let somebody else handle it." You are in the chain, too.

On that note if NHQ really wants us to enforce uniform regulations they would:
a) Write a reg that is clear and up to date.

Agreed. Completely. Hard to enforce something that is inconsitent, or outright lacking in guidance.

b) Enforce the reg at their level

I think I'm safe in saying that the largest majority of pubs apply to all levels. Which means they are to be enforced at all levels.

c) Stop the gross violations that take place at wing levels (PAWG and their ranger bling as the most obvious example....but there are many more).

Agreed. Either make the stuff legal, or disallow it when it's not.

So....like you I enforce the regulations at my level.  I send my new SMs and cadets to the regulations.

Sending new members to pubs is a good idea. Now, take it a step further and start educating them on how they work, what they cover, and just as importantly what to do if the situation is not covered. Mentor them. I would hope you did that in the Air Force at least a time or two. CAP members deserve the same thing.

From the NCO creed: "All soldiers are entitled to outstanding leadership, I will provide that leadership." Try applying that principle. Lead people, and show them how to do it to.

I DO violate the regulation when and where appropriate....but I use my good judgement, insure my chain of command is in the loop and make all attempts to stay or quickly return to regulation complaince.

I find that this should be clarified a bit. Are you directly contradicting the pub, or are you doing something not mentioned but still within the spirit of the pub? There's a major difference. Safety is a concern, but returning to compliance as soon as possible is best. We don't need to look ragtag.

So your squadron and my squadron are good......but I can do anything about what happens 20 miles away in Squadron X....and I certainly can't help what goes on in the next wing.

Agreed, and not what I'm advocating. BUT, the cadet from another wing that shows up to your meeting with a uniform item that they can't account for by any form of guidance needs to be told to remove said item or leave.

[lordmonar]

Third....regulation complaince is a enforced TOP DOWN!  I can only enforce the regulaitons at my level and below.  I can encourage my peers to be complaince....but I can't ENFORCE them at that level.  I....as I have said.....can and should report violations up my chain for them to enforce complaince.

That's what I'm advocating, enforcing them at the lowest level. The pubs are there so you you don't have to pester chain of command on compliance.

Yes...but you can't control what the commander of another squadron is doing.....and it is WRONG of you to countermand his orders.

Second, violations should be corrected, on the spot. If the person refuses, that's when you go up the chain. Any member should have the intestinal fortitude to do so, not "let somebody else handle it." You are in the chain, too.

To a point.  By all means.....you see something wrong...and get a "but my commander said" answere....follow it up.  But you can't jack up the cadet or SM for doing what his commander told him to do.

b) Enforce the reg at their level

I think I'm safe in saying that the largest majority of pubs apply to all levels. Which means they are to be enforced at all levels.

What that means is that NHQ has to ensure each and every member at the NHQ is in complaince.  They then have to ensure that the Regions and Wings are in complaince.  I can't do a thing as a squadron staff member about anyone from PAWG wearing ranger bling.  That's PAWG/CC, NER/CC and NHQ's job.

So....like you I enforce the regulations at my level.  I send my new SMs and cadets to the regulations.

Sending new members to pubs is a good idea. Now, take it a step further and start educating them on how they work, what they cover, and just as importantly what to do if the situation is not covered. Mentor them. I would hope you did that in the Air Force at least a time or two. CAP members deserve the same thing.

From the NCO creed: "All soldiers are entitled to outstanding leadership, I will provide that leadership." Try applying that principle. Lead people, and show them how to do it to.

  Don't be telling gran-pa how to suck eggs! 

I DO violate the regulation when and where appropriate....but I use my good judgement, insure my chain of command is in the loop and make all attempts to stay or quickly return to regulation complaince.

I find that this should be clarified a bit. Are you directly contradicting the pub, or are you doing something not mentioned but still within the spirit of the pub? There's a major difference. Safety is a concern, but returning to compliance as soon as possible is best. We don't need to look ragtag.

I have done both.

I have worn an out of regs T-shirt issued to me my NESA!  (gasp!).  Purposefully and with a malice aforthought!  I have violated regulations to ensure the mission got done.  I have ignored complete sections of the regulations because the are.....just stupid.  I have said many times....one of the most difficult things to teach about leadership is when and how to violate regulations.

So your squadron and my squadron are good......but I can do anything about what happens 20 miles away in Squadron X....and I certainly can't help what goes on in the next wing.

Agreed, and not what I'm advocating. BUT, the cadet from another wing that shows up to your meeting with a uniform item that they can't account for by any form of guidance needs to be told to remove said item or leave.

Six of one/half dozen of the other.  It depends on the situation, the violation and context.  Some cadet just visiting an old NESA freind because he happened to be in town?  No.   Some cadet showing up to work my airshow...and I gave clear guidance what the UoD was?  Maybe.  In either case I would get their side of the story and report it to the appropriate chain of command.

I know of one CAP officer at the last Aviation Nation air show here at Nellis was taking pictures of SM's in gross violation of the uniform and was e-mailing them to the appropriate wing commanders.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

That's only half of the argument and discussion - I've sat through enough of the "It's a safety issue." nonsense myself.

I mean a definite safety issue like cold-weather gear...not trying to look like Full Metal Jacket.

[titanII]

That's only half of the argument and discussion - I've sat through enough of the "It's a safety issue." nonsense myself.

I mean a definite safety issue like cold-weather gear...not trying to look like Full Metal Jacket.

i.e. a non-reg winter hat if it's freezing out- not a combat helmet for GT exercises "just in case." 

[Hawk200]

Yes...but you can't control what the commander of another squadron is doing.....and it is WRONG of you to countermand his orders.

Quite true. But I can control members that are meeting at my squadron. There's also the factor of being a good guest. Good guests don't come in, toss my apple cart and walk away. They do things the right way, or they leave. Have the courage to be true in your own unit.

Another unit commander's orders aren't relevant at my unit. And any individual that gives me such a response as a means of ignoring my correction is quite free to return that unit commander, I'm not keeping them. The chain of command above me matters, not the ones lateral to me.

To a point.  By all means.....you see something wrong...and get a "but my commander said" answere....follow it up.  But you can't jack up the cadet or SM for doing what his commander told him to do.

Then you're letting them get away with it. Tell them to correct, or leave. Be a commander.

What that means is that NHQ has to ensure each and every member at the NHQ is in complaince.  They then have to ensure that the Regions and Wings are in complaince.  I can't do a thing as a squadron staff member about anyone from PAWG wearing ranger bling.  That's PAWG/CC, NER/CC and NHQ's job.

Absolutely. But, as I said above, when they're in your yard, they play by the local rules. Cafeteria reg compliance creates an organization wide problem one unit at a time.

  Don't be telling gran-pa how to suck eggs! 

Shouldn't have to. And if you're claiming the wisdom of age, I'd be willing to bet I'm probably older than you think.

I have worn an out of regs T-shirt issued to me my NESA!  (gasp!).  Purposefully and with a malice aforthought!  I have violated regulations to ensure the mission got done.  I have ignored complete sections of the regulations because the are.....just stupid.  I have said many times....one of the most difficult things to teach about leadership is when and how to violate regulations.

That is part of the problem. If you don't like the pubs, get them changed. Put some brain cells to work, send up a clear package on what's wrong with the pub, and the best way to do it. You know how, put it to use.

There are many ways to do something not necessarily within the letter of the pub, but still within the spirit. When you do something that is in direct opposition to the pub, you're tacitly advocating that violation is acceptable, and making the problem worse. People will choose to violate whatever pub they wish, not just the ones you do. And they will have your example as the justification. When you attempt to correct them on something they choose to ignore, you don't have a leg to stand on.

Six of one/half dozen of the other.  It depends on the situation, the violation and context.  Some cadet just visiting an old NESA freind because he happened to be in town?  No.   Some cadet showing up to work my airshow...and I gave clear guidance what the UoD was?  Maybe.  In either case I would get their side of the story and report it to the appropriate chain of command.

At least you're doing something. At times, it can be as simple as "That practice is not authorized here." You might be surprised how often it works. Let people know there are boundaries. There always are. People should learn to respect them.

I know of one CAP officer at the last Aviation Nation air show here at Nellis was taking pictures of SM's in gross violation of the uniform and was e-mailing them to the appropriate wing commanders.

That is definitely not leadership or command, it's tattling. Not a very mature behavior from people that are supposed to be acting mature.

[lordmonar]

Hawk......if you tell me something that is contradictory to what my commander told me to do......you can go pound salt.

Chain of command.....chain of command......chain of command.

We teach it to the cadets......yes your intentions are good....you may even be morally and technically correct......but so it the individual who is following the LEGAL ORDERS of his commander.......and for the record....ordering someone to violate a regulations......can still be a legal order.

You are right.......I tacitly advocate that IN THE RIGHT SITUATION violations of the regulations are not only allowed....but required.

a)  Regulations cannot and should not cover all possible and unlikely situations.
b)  Safety and Mission are the two prime directives in my leadership understanding.....anything that get in the way of those two things can be ignored in required.

Tattleing is letting the appropriate level of command that they have a problem to fix.
It is not my problem to fix PAWG......it's NER's and NHQ's.
It is not my problem to fix the next squadron over's problems it my wing CC's job.

If they don't know about the problem...they can't fix it.

Now you can say that this is bad leadership.....nope.....it is all about chain of command.  You let the right person do his job......and don't sweat the small stuff.

SM X from the next wing over is sporting a Pink Beret that his squadron commander authorised......I may say something to him....I may ask him who authorised it.......I may even ask what they are doing in my AOR.......but if the answer is "my commander authorised it" I got to let that stand.  I am not going to under cut some commander's authority by saying "well he can't do that"....I certainly would hope that you would back me up in the same way.  By all means come to me as a peer or even report me to my chain of command if you think my orders are inapproprate.   But you have to back up the authority of your brother and sister officers.

........Now don't get me wrong.......as you say.....the INAPPROPRIATE picking and choosing of what regs to follow is a problem.....and as I said before the art of knowing when and how to violate regulations is one of the hardest lessons I learned during my AD USAF days. 

Do I think that a lot of CAP officers and commanders at all levels have failed to learn it?  You bet!  Do I think that a lot of VERY senior officers have failed to do their job of enforcing the uniform regs?  Again you bet.  Do I think that you should correct on the spot?  Absolutely!  It is what you do to the violator after you learn that his squadron/group/wing commander does not know the regulations as well as he should......you can't hold the individual responsible for following a legal order.

That is all I am saying.

[Spaceman3750]

What if a GTM assigned to my team shows up wearing a pink beret that his squadron commander authorized? Does my "command authority" as a GTL extend to uniform issues the SQ/CC of that particular member has "authorized"? Can I require that member to remove his pink beret?

[Extremepredjudice]

What if a GTM assigned to my team shows up wearing a pink beret that his squadron commander authorized? Does my "command authority" as a GTL extend to uniform issues the SQ/CC of that particular member has "authorized"? Can I require that member to remove his pink beret?

Is the uniform such a big deal when you are on a mission? I'd think you'd be more worried about someone dying than bagodoughnut's pink beret.

My two cents on pink berets.

It'd be nice to have berets as at least an optional headpiece.

[Spaceman3750]

What if a GTM assigned to my team shows up wearing a pink beret that his squadron commander authorized? Does my "command authority" as a GTL extend to uniform issues the SQ/CC of that particular member has "authorized"? Can I require that member to remove his pink beret?

Is the uniform such a big deal when you are on a mission? I'd think you'd be more worried about someone dying than bagodoughnut's pink beret.

My two cents on pink berets.

It'd be nice to have berets as at least an optional headpiece.

Of course, but our teams are also highly visible and can attract lots of attention from the public and other agencies so looking professional is important.

I'm multitalented - I can keep my team safe and looking good at the same time :p.

[Eclipse]

Is the uniform such a big deal when you are on a mission?

Yes.

If you can't read and follow basic instructions, you're not needed.

If you can read and follow basic instructions, but choose to make things up for expediency or because "you know better", you're not needed.

See Patton's comments on this matter.

[Eclipse]

........Now don't get me wrong.......as you say.....the INAPPROPRIATE picking and choosing of what regs to follow is a problem.....and as I said before the art of knowing when and how to violate regulations is one of the hardest lessons I learned during my AD USAF days. 

CAP members do not have either the experience, proficiency, or the necessity to treat the regs like a menu.

When our commanders and ES leaders learn this lesson, we'll be back on track.

[Eclipse]

Hawk......if you tell me something that is contradictory to what my commander told me to do......you can go pound salt.

Chain of command.....chain of command......chain of command.

And you can go home.  The chain in CAP is subjective and changes based on the activity.

In ES the chain is ICS, at an encampment it is the appointed staff.  Either and both are fully able to countermand your
inability to read the regs and correct your mistakes.

[lordmonar]

What if a GTM assigned to my team shows up wearing a pink beret that his squadron commander authorized? Does my "command authority" as a GTL extend to uniform issues the SQ/CC of that particular member has "authorized"? Can I require that member to remove his pink beret?

AHHHH.....now you are talking.....now this member is part of YOUR chain of command......and YOUR rules and orders apply.

[lordmonar]

Is the uniform such a big deal when you are on a mission?

Yes.

If you can't read and follow basic instructions, you're not needed.

If you can read and follow basic instructions, but choose to make things up for expediency or because "you know better", you're not needed.

See Patton's comments on this matter.

Patton is not really a good example.....see Patton's uniform.

[lordmonar]

........Now don't get me wrong.......as you say.....the INAPPROPRIATE picking and choosing of what regs to follow is a problem.....and as I said before the art of knowing when and how to violate regulations is one of the hardest lessons I learned during my AD USAF days. 

CAP members do not have either the experience, proficiency, or the necessity to treat the regs like a menu.

When our commanders and ES leaders learn this lesson, we'll be back on track.

I disagree.  I am a CAP member, and I know several other CAP members that have the experince, proficiency and necesssity to violate regs.

We hire leaders to make the call.....anyone can just follow the regulations.

[lordmonar]

Hawk......if you tell me something that is contradictory to what my commander told me to do......you can go pound salt.

Chain of command.....chain of command......chain of command.

And you can go home.  The chain in CAP is subjective and changes based on the activity.

In ES the chain is ICS, at an encampment it is the appointed staff.  Either and both are fully able to countermand your
inability to read the regs and correct your mistakes.

Yep.......now you understand.....but random SM....while I am out taking pictures at an airshow.....cannot countermand my chain of command.  When I sign in to a SAREX or show up at an activity......then I am under the chain of command for the that mission or activity.....and their rules provail!

That is the one and only point I have been trying to make.

[Extremepredjudice]

Can you guys make one big post instead of 3 or 4 posts?

[lordmonar]

Can you guys make one big post instead of 3 or 4 posts?

No!  Jezz dude!  What are you the post National Socialist? 

[NCRblues]

Is the uniform such a big deal when you are on a mission?

Yes.

If you can't read and follow basic instructions, you're not needed.

If you can read and follow basic instructions, but choose to make things up for expediency or because "you know better", you're not needed.

See Patton's comments on this matter.

Patton is not really a good example.....see Patton's uniform.

Patton's uniform was magnificent....period.